GIVE FVV MAX!

[SocialistHipHop]

Fred can be the starting PG and 20-23 million is fine by me barring he is your third option and you sign a starting 2 guard beside him with legit size that can run a PnR and pass.

It's the only way to make it work. I believe Fred will improve but you need to have him play off ball too

I think they can develop TD into that type of 2 guard.

I was just about to say this.

A rotation of OG, Norm, TD & Fred at the wing & PG positions (with some minutes at the 3 from Pascal as well) is a solid rotation moving forward. If Boucher can become a serviceable bench Big, we’d just need a solid centre and a np All star caliber PF. Basically, we’d be a team that Giannis could slot into perfectly.

[Young_Buc]

Here's another point:

Is Fred currently a top 10 point guard?

I got;

1. Steph
2. Dame
3. Lowry
4. Chris Paul
5. Jamaal Murray
6. Kemba
7. Kyrie Irving
8. Westbrook (Non Coronavirus version)
9. Ja Morant
10. Ben Simmons

Note: Ben Simmons who I havenl mentioned has position uncertainty. Luka doncic is a sf to me. And James Harden cause to me James is a shooting guard.

Ok so clearly Fred doesn't break top 10 for point guards in the league. Top 15?


11. Trae young
12. Dearon fox
13. Fred Van Vleet
14. Spencer Dinwiddie
15. D'angelo Russell
16. Lou williams
17. Eric Bledsoe

... So it seems Fred is the top 12 point guards for sure.

Do you spend the max on a top 12 player?

If say currently all the guys listed below Fred on that list are better players than him and would THRIVE in our system. Closest comparison for Fred is Lou Williams. A scoring "PG" who is excellent as a 6th man

Fred plays defence. Very well.

Was definitely taken into consideration when I made that call (Lou plays very little) to me, unless you're a Marcus Smart, Pat Beverly or even Lowry (charges) to a degree being a good defender at the PG spot is often negligible as point guards are near impossible to stop and often requires a team scheme (which we often create)

[Lateral Quicks]

FVV is not a good playmaker and shoots better off the ball. The problem is he's too small to play SG - we've made it work the past couple years, but it's not ideal. He's a valuable player due to his off-ball shooting and defense, but certainly nowhere close to a max player.

I want him back, but only if it's for reasonable money, and only if we can pair him with a PG or SG with a lot of size and playmaking ability - who knows, maybe TD2 can be that guy.

If not, I'm comfortable rolling with a Lowry/TD2/Powell/Thomas backcourt rotation next year - that's still really good. We're dealing from a position of strength in contract negotiations with FVV, so if he gets greedy, we should let him go.

[deeps6x]

Another question, why should Fred choose the horrible Knicks or the pistons with Casey and 23 mill salary instead of signing with us getting 18~20 Mill being in the playoffs for many years and maybe being a contender again 2021. To be successful, the Raptors need good high quality role players for a good 2021 pitch. Our system players are the reason we are so successful.

I guess it really depends on how highly players value the chance to compete for a championship. Fred already has won it all. Maybe he wants to move closer to home, have the extra $4 million per season, and have extra long summers to spend more time with his kids.

Personally, in his situation, I probably take the extra money and extra time off between seasons. But I really hope we can bring him back. I value his contributions more than Ibaka's, so if there is a choice to be made, pay FVV and let Ibaka walk.

[StopitLeo]

Fred can be the starting PG and 20-23 million is fine by me barring he is your third option and you sign a starting 2 guard beside him with legit size that can run a PnR and pass.

It's the only way to make it work. I believe Fred will improve but you need to have him play off ball too

I think they can develop TD into that type of 2 guard.

I was just about to say this.

A rotation of OG, Norm, TD & Fred at the wing & PG positions (with some minutes at the 3 from Pascal as well) is a solid rotation moving forward. If Boucher can become a serviceable bench Big, we’d just need a solid centre and a np All star caliber PF. Basically, we’d be a team that Giannis could slot into perfectly.

That's not a solid wing rotation. It lacks size and the ability to attack off the dribble.

[mademan]

tbh, this is the second year a strong defense with size was able to completely limit FVV. He's not Lowry, in that everything else he does can make up for his not scoring well. No matter what they tell you, size matters. Ima feel uncomfortable with FVV at 20+ mill

[ruckus]

I think they can develop TD into that type of 2 guard.

I was just about to say this.

A rotation of OG, Norm, TD & Fred at the wing & PG positions (with some minutes at the 3 from Pascal as well) is a solid rotation moving forward. If Boucher can become a serviceable bench Big, we’d just need a solid centre and a np All star caliber PF. Basically, we’d be a team that Giannis could slot into perfectly.

That's not a solid wing rotation. It lacks size and the ability to attack off the dribble.

There's no difference in that rotation from this year except for no Kyle. Add in reasonable improvement from the 4 guys mentioned and its not really something to worry about.

[nabbs]

I think they can develop TD into that type of 2 guard.

I was just about to say this.

A rotation of OG, Norm, TD & Fred at the wing & PG positions (with some minutes at the 3 from Pascal as well) is a solid rotation moving forward. If Boucher can become a serviceable bench Big, we’d just need a solid centre and a np All star caliber PF. Basically, we’d be a team that Giannis could slot into perfectly.

That's not a solid wing rotation. It lacks size and the ability to attack off the dribble.

I like Watson being a backup wing next season. Otherwise I don't really know who else you sign that will take the minimum to round out the roster. Not a lot of wing options. There are some in the draft but obviously it's not ideal to have to rely on rookies.

Jamychal Green, Derrick jones Jr are intriguing 3/4 options


Man one guy who is an RFA but I dont think ATL will match..... Deandre Bembry is a swiss army knife forward to have off the bench. I'd love to poach him

[agentzero2010]

Heres my opinion on Fred VanVleet. Last year's playoff role was perfect for him; come off the bench to provide steady bench leadership and production (especially during the conference finals and finals), and he is capable of explosive production in short bursts. He is the perfect 4th or 5th option on a championship team. This season, he displayed efficient offensive production and solid defensive prowess as a starting guard on a 2nd seed. That alone deserves at least 20 million per year in this current market. His ability to make clutch shots, attack the basket with his broad yet miniature size and his championship experience should add another 5 million to his contract. However, his lack of size and athleticism was greatly exposed against the much taller and athletic Celtics.

So here is the conundrum for the Raptors, I believe Fred VanVleet will and should get 25 million per year (4 years 100 million). If the Raptors sign him to that contract, they can extend their run as a competitive team and maintain continuity. However, he will take up a large chunk of the salary cap which they hope to pursue Giannis...But if you don't have Fred VanVleet, Lowry, Ibaka and other pieces and just has a core of OG, Siakam, Davis, why would Giannis even consider coming here with no guard play?

Heres what I think Raptors should do, re-up Fred for 4 years 95-100 million, convince And1 that Toronto is the ideal market to grow their brand, and if things don't work out, trade him for future assets. The goal should be to retain assets, we don't want to end up like the Bucks whom lost Brogdan for next to nothing.

If I were Masai, I would resign Ibaka (20 million per year), VanVleet (25 million per year) and Gasol (7 million per year) and just flip them into future assets ala Clippers from 2017-2019.

[StopitLeo]

I was just about to say this.

A rotation of OG, Norm, TD & Fred at the wing & PG positions (with some minutes at the 3 from Pascal as well) is a solid rotation moving forward. If Boucher can become a serviceable bench Big, we’d just need a solid centre and a np All star caliber PF. Basically, we’d be a team that Giannis could slot into perfectly.

That's not a solid wing rotation. It lacks size and the ability to attack off the dribble.

There's no difference in that rotation from this year except for no Kyle. Add in reasonable improvement from the 4 guys mentioned and its not really something to worry about.

Our lack of size and ball-handling on the wing was a big problem against the Celtics.

Success in the half-court is really limited with only one perimeter guy who is able to attack off the dribble in addition to your point guard. Pascal isn't even that good at it; he's just the only guy we have with size and a decent handle (needs tightening up as we saw against Boston).

[Syd-TK3]

Just to chime in a bit more...

Fred shoots literally around 41% from the field in the last two years and 40% from 3. I hardly doubt he's going to score on better effeciency, even above 43% FG. I'm using field goal as a analytical tool only because we all know the 3 is his weapon of choice. But finishing at the rim and a decent mid range is important.

I wish there was a way you combine Fred's defense, three point shooting, and tight handle with DeMars mid range , athleticism, height, and offensive finishes.

We're looking at one hell of a player haha.

That being said Fred's definitely wayyyy too flawed to be a max player. If god forbid he gets a injury that limits his handle or driving ability, were f***ed for the length of his contract.

Those percentages basically explain the type of offensive player fred is.
A great shooter that struggles to score in other ways. Which we've seen a lot based on his limited size. When he's splashing 3s and playing off ball it's great but when he tries to do more he can't and you end up with those horrible last second heaves or him blocked at the rim.

[v1n5anity]

That last 3 pointer he took for us should cost him the max. I'd like to keep him but not for too much. It'll be Pascal all over again.

[ruckus]

That's not a solid wing rotation. It lacks size and the ability to attack off the dribble.

There's no difference in that rotation from this year except for no Kyle. Add in reasonable improvement from the 4 guys mentioned and its not really something to worry about.

Our lack of size and ball-handling on the wing was a big problem against the Celtics.

Success in the half-court is really limited with only one perimeter guy who is able to attack off the dribble in addition to your point guard. Pascal isn't even that good at it; he's just the only guy we have with size and a decent handle (needs tightening up as we saw against Boston).

If we're just focusing on the wing, Norm has sufficient size at the 2/3. Both Pascal and OG needs to get better at the 3/4 in terms of their handle. I haven't seen enough of Watson to judge one way or the other.

However, its a bit unfair to judge our wings against Smart/Brown and Tatum. If held up to that standard then yes, we aren't there. But what of the other 28 teams? Our wing rotation is decent enough to run it back and see if there is enough growth to take another step forward.

[OAKLEY_2]

Another question, why should Fred choose the horrible Knicks or the pistons with Casey and 23 mill salary instead of signing with us getting 18~20 Mill being in the playoffs for many years and maybe being a contender again 2021. To be successful, the Raptors need good high quality role players for a good 2021 pitch. Our system players are the reason we are so successful.

I guess it really depends on how highly players value the chance to compete for a championship. Fred already has won it all. Maybe he wants to move closer to home, have the extra $4 million per season, and have extra long summers to spend more time with his kids.

Personally, in his situation, I probably take the extra money and extra time off between seasons. But I really hope we can bring him back. I value his contributions more than Ibaka's, so if there is a choice to be made, pay FVV and let Ibaka walk.

Smartest thing would be to try to facilitate a sign and trade to the Mavs. I would take back Delon and the TPE difference in cash. Fred would be the PG guy with Doncic. This would mean we retain Serge and Boucher.

[SurgeIblocka]

Another question, why should Fred choose the horrible Knicks or the pistons with Casey and 23 mill salary instead of signing with us getting 18~20 Mill being in the playoffs for many years and maybe being a contender again 2021. To be successful, the Raptors need good high quality role players for a good 2021 pitch. Our system players are the reason we are so successful.

I guess it really depends on how highly players value the chance to compete for a championship. Fred already has won it all. Maybe he wants to move closer to home, have the extra $4 million per season, and have extra long summers to spend more time with his kids.

Personally, in his situation, I probably take the extra money and extra time off between seasons. But I really hope we can bring him back. I value his contributions more than Ibaka's, so if there is a choice to be made, pay FVV and let Ibaka walk.

Smartest thing would be to try to facilitate a sign and trade to the Mavs. I would take back Delon and the TPE difference in cash. Fred would be the PG guy with Doncic. This would mean we retain Serge and Boucher.

Have you seen Delon play for the Mavs, he is a shell of what he was here. For all those talks about who would be a better PG for us and Delon’s size. Fred has proven he is by Far the better player even with his lack of size.

As soon as we lose Fred people will be complaining about why we let him go.

I wouldn’t pay him 25 Mil but at 20 Mil I would still keep him and trade him later if we need cap space as he would still retain strong trade value. You don’t lose an asset like Fred for nothing unless your signing or trading for a comparable player.

[Yosemite Dan]

Pointless thread. He’s as good as gone. Some team will offer him close to 100 million over 4 years. He’s not stupid, knows he’s not getting any better and has hit his ceiling. Now’s the time to cash in which he has pretty much said in every interview when asked about it.

Whoever does it will regret it, which is ok as long as its not us.

[PT416]

We're not maxing this IDGAF

Watch on YouTube

[TheAlchemist]

Another question, why should Fred choose the horrible Knicks or the pistons with Casey and 23 mill salary instead of signing with us getting 18~20 Mill being in the playoffs for many years and maybe being a contender again 2021. To be successful, the Raptors need good high quality role players for a good 2021 pitch. Our system players are the reason we are so successful.

I guess it really depends on how highly players value the chance to compete for a championship. Fred already has won it all. Maybe he wants to move closer to home, have the extra $4 million per season, and have extra long summers to spend more time with his kids.

Personally, in his situation, I probably take the extra money and extra time off between seasons. But I really hope we can bring him back. I value his contributions more than Ibaka's, so if there is a choice to be made, pay FVV and let Ibaka walk.

Smartest thing would be to try to facilitate a sign and trade to the Mavs. I would take back Delon and the TPE difference in cash. Fred would be the PG guy with Doncic. This would mean we retain Serge and Boucher.

Phenomenal trade. Good stuff man.

I completely agree. Not only would it give us the same level of defense , but Delon has great court vision too.

Delon-OG-Siakam might not be the prettiest offensively, but damn that's a killer defensive lineup.

[TheAlchemist]

This is the type of player a GM would hate to have.

Someone good enough to get huge money, but not enough to make us a viable contender.

DeMar DeRozan was another. Lowry for all the slack he got actually was not in this category of a player.

Can anyone post Fred's stats when he starts and plays more then 30 minutes? It'd actually be a good indicator of what we get.

[sidsid]

Getting back to how to value Fred's contract, you'd have to assess through recent comps. If this was hockey I could make a pretty simple arbitration case.

Fred's skill comp is Brogdon, who is in the 22 mil range. Brogdon is also a 50/40/90 player, which Fred is not (and likely never will be because of his size compared to Brogdon). So we know his hard ceiling in cash is a little below that, so put it at a max of 20 mil.

However, there is also the Bledsoe comp in terms of regular season vs playoff production. Bledsoe spent years putting up numbers on lottery teams, but now is assessed based on playoffs on a contender. No one cares what he does other than that anymore. His perceived value is probably less than his 16 mil (prob around 12/13), even though his reg season production is fine.

Fred is a worse player than Brogdon, but a slightly better player than Bledsoe in the playoffs. His actual contract value is in the 15 mil range.

Contenders have seen this happen many times. Lottery teams wanting to overpay a contender's role players. A smart GM has to know when to walk.

My preferences for a Fred contract:

1. S&T package for Dipo
2. 1 year overpay of the max
3. 15 mil long term (easily tradeable in 2021)
4. Let him walk
5. Slight overpay (18 mil)
6. Overpay (anything else) - I do not want this. This is worst case scenario that requires assets to get out of.