Has it not become overwhelmingly clear (even to management) it's time to blow this up?

[ItsDanger]

I assume they are aware, but it takes two to make a trade - and the Raps could be holding out to maximize value as we approach the trade deadline. The risk in that is obviously winning too many games, but with the way this team is playing, and the upcoming sched, it's probably safe to wait it out.

The immediate risks are diminishing demand and returns. Once teams start trading for their needs, the number of teams willing to trade declines. So waiting to maximize return might be risky. Obviously we aren't aware of what's actually going on behind the scenes around the league though. I think it's more imperative to change direction now.

Not as big a factor for trading Trent though. But with Fred, it is

[ATLTimekeeper]

Based on some of these responses I think we can keep this core together and win about 35-45 games a year for the next 5 years. And the posters who oppose to losing games this season / TANKING, will continue to believe this core is 1/2 piece away from truly contending, and never complain about not making past 2nd round in the next 5 years.

Then natural progression of this core over those 5 years, will end up with bloated contracts and age-related declining performance, and we naturally end up in the high lottery from losing 50+ games a season. When we select lottery level prospects and become good again after another 3-4 years, the same posters will celebrate that we became good without TANKING

Seems like your entire identity as a Raps fan is tanking. The parade must have been rough on you.

[OakleyDokely]

Based on some of these responses I think we can keep this core together and win about 35-45 games a year for the next 5 years. And the posters who oppose to losing games this season / TANKING, will continue to believe this core is 1/2 piece away from truly contending, and never complain about not making past 2nd round in the next 5 years.

Then natural progression of this core over those 5 years, will end up with bloated contracts and age-related declining performance, and we naturally end up in the high lottery from losing 50+ games a season. When we select lottery level prospects and become good again after another 3-4 years, the same posters will celebrate that we became good without TANKING

Seems like your entire identity as a Raps fan is tanking. The parade must have been rough on you.

There was a large contingent here who advocated that we tank during the offseason of the championship year.

[OakleyDokely]

After so many post-championship years we have a bit of perspective on management. They managed this mediocrity since the title.

They have not gone into the luxury tax once to seriously pursue any title hopes.

They haven't made any trades to take a step back or show any sort of direction towards building their prospect/draft assets.

Instead they have preached organic growth the entire time and worked with Nurse to construct this weird roster of forwards with overlapping skillsets and no guards with rim attacking ability and zero viable Cs.

To me, the clear change is needed from the top-down. They have to dump the front-office and Nurse. Bobby and Nurse have managed to ruin this team with their utter nonsense approach which basically has amounted to this team being bottom five in the league overall.

We have good assets in Pascal, OG, Trent and FVV that need to be traded, but I want another front office doing that work. And I definitely don't want Nurse coaching the next crop of talent. I have to admit, he is such a smooth, straight-shooter that you can't help but hope the best with him, but his results have been pretty weak given the skilled players he has had.

you want to get rid of all the people who acquired and developed all of our good players/assets?

This fanbase is way too spoiled. Take a look at the last 10 years for the other 29 franchises around the league and compare it the Raptors. There's maybe a handful of teams that you'd trade with.

[DelAbbot]

Based on some of these responses I think we can keep this core together and win about 35-45 games a year for the next 5 years. And the posters who oppose to losing games this season / TANKING, will continue to believe this core is 1/2 piece away from truly contending, and never complain about not making past 2nd round in the next 5 years.

Then natural progression of this core over those 5 years, will end up with bloated contracts and age-related declining performance, and we naturally end up in the high lottery from losing 50+ games a season. When we select lottery level prospects and become good again after another 3-4 years, the same posters will celebrate that we became good without TANKING

Seems like your entire identity as a Raps fan is tanking. The parade must have been rough on you.

There was a large contingent here who advocated that we tank during the offseason of the championship year.

How about not loop me in by making a comment like that and implying I wanted to tank since the championship?

And I was not for tanking until 10 games into Tampa season. Here are my receipts

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1931628

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1995906

[Los_29]

Based on some of these responses I think we can keep this core together and win about 35-45 games a year for the next 5 years. And the posters who oppose to losing games this season / TANKING, will continue to believe this core is 1/2 piece away from truly contending, and never complain about not making past 2nd round in the next 5 years.

Then natural progression of this core over those 5 years, will end up with bloated contracts and age-related declining performance, and we naturally end up in the high lottery from losing 50+ games a season. When we select lottery level prospects and become good again after another 3-4 years, the same posters will celebrate that we became good without TANKING

Seems like your entire identity as a Raps fan is tanking. The parade must have been rough on you.

They would’ve traded Demar, JV and Kyle for picks and we’d have no championship. I honestly think there are some people on here who think Sam Hinkie was a good GM. Lol.

[OakleyDokely]

Seems like your entire identity as a Raps fan is tanking. The parade must have been rough on you.

There was a large contingent here who advocated that we tank during the offseason of the championship year.

How about not loop me in by making a comment like that and implying I wanted to tank since the championship?

And I was not for tanking until 10 games into Tampa season. Here are my receipts

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1931628

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1995906

Not saying you in particular, just saying that a tank thread pops up here every year regardless of the Raps record.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Seems like your entire identity as a Raps fan is tanking. The parade must have been rough on you.

There was a large contingent here who advocated that we tank during the offseason of the championship year.

How about not loop me in by making a comment like that and implying I wanted to tank since the championship?

And I was not for tanking until 10 games into Tampa season. Here are my receipts

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1931628

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1995906

So why are you complaining about ghoulish future landscapes that other posters want?

[canz55]

I don't think anyone is advocating gutting the entire team.

You listen to the offers and start from there. Everyone not named Barnes is on the table.

[ATLTimekeeper]

"Other posters think how I thought two seasons ago" isn't really a condemnation of those posters. Some just see instability a little clearer. The Raptors sucking is always on the table, as it is this year. Then we see if management makes horrible decisions or sane ones. The posters that think they should cough up two future firsts for Jakob Poeltl is insignificantly small, and the posters that rag on every player over 25 is a lot larger.

[youreachiteach]

It's tough. I don't see a lot of options out there short of just making ourselves worse, with minimal pieces coming back unless we REALLY blow it up. I'd think it will be difficult for management to give up on Pascal and OG, despite thier tools...
I wonder.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

I'd rather just manage our assets well. Like we did last time.

It makes more sense to trade for a top pick than tank for one at this point. Just target good players that fit our timeline. We don't need to hit a homerun. It'd sure be great though if we could. It's just at what price.

We should go the Grizzly's route and accelerate that reality if we can.

[Dalek]

After so many post-championship years we have a bit of perspective on management. They managed this mediocrity since the title.

They have not gone into the luxury tax once to seriously pursue any title hopes.

They haven't made any trades to take a step back or show any sort of direction towards building their prospect/draft assets.

Instead they have preached organic growth the entire time and worked with Nurse to construct this weird roster of forwards with overlapping skillsets and no guards with rim attacking ability and zero viable Cs.

To me, the clear change is needed from the top-down. They have to dump the front-office and Nurse. Bobby and Nurse have managed to ruin this team with their utter nonsense approach which basically has amounted to this team being bottom five in the league overall.

We have good assets in Pascal, OG, Trent and FVV that need to be traded, but I want another front office doing that work. And I definitely don't want Nurse coaching the next crop of talent. I have to admit, he is such a smooth, straight-shooter that you can't help but hope the best with him, but his results have been pretty weak given the skilled players he has had.

you want to get rid of all the people who acquired and developed all of our good players/assets?

This fanbase is way too spoiled. Take a look at the last 10 years for the other 29 franchises around the league and compare it the Raptors. There's maybe a handful of teams that you'd trade with.

Honestly, out of the supposed amazing players assets we have, I'd only want to build around Pascal Siakam. The others are way too inconsistent to be anything more than role players.

I also don't think we can trust this management because they are loyal to a fault, and go the unconventional defense first route to build this team. I give credit to developing late firsts and second rounders, but that was early on when it was more Masai doing his work with his staff and not Bobby Webster who is honestly more of a contract guy than a scout.

[OakleyDokely]

After so many post-championship years we have a bit of perspective on management. They managed this mediocrity since the title.

They have not gone into the luxury tax once to seriously pursue any title hopes.

They haven't made any trades to take a step back or show any sort of direction towards building their prospect/draft assets.

Instead they have preached organic growth the entire time and worked with Nurse to construct this weird roster of forwards with overlapping skillsets and no guards with rim attacking ability and zero viable Cs.

To me, the clear change is needed from the top-down. They have to dump the front-office and Nurse. Bobby and Nurse have managed to ruin this team with their utter nonsense approach which basically has amounted to this team being bottom five in the league overall.

We have good assets in Pascal, OG, Trent and FVV that need to be traded, but I want another front office doing that work. And I definitely don't want Nurse coaching the next crop of talent. I have to admit, he is such a smooth, straight-shooter that you can't help but hope the best with him, but his results have been pretty weak given the skilled players he has had.

you want to get rid of all the people who acquired and developed all of our good players/assets?

This fanbase is way too spoiled. Take a look at the last 10 years for the other 29 franchises around the league and compare it the Raptors. There's maybe a handful of teams that you'd trade with.

Honestly, out of the supposed amazing players assets we have, I'd only want to build around Pascal Siakam. The others are way too inconsistent to be anything more than role players.

I also don't think we can trust this management because they are loyal to a fault, and go the unconventional defense first route to build this team. I give credit to developing late firsts and second rounders, but that was early on when it was more Masai doing his work with his staff and not Bobby Webster who is honestly more of a contract guy than a scout.

Loyal? Masai shipped the Raps alltime leading scorer for an injury risk rental. They moved Val for a vet. They sent Powell packing because they didn't want to pay him.

Just because they haven't built another championship contender in 2 years doesn't mean they're too loyal or are unwilling to make changes.

[Johnny Bball]

A casual observer from business standpoint would look at the Raptors and conclude management needs to be removed, why isn't action being taken in this situation. If you're honest that is.

Try it yourself sometime.

[Johnny Bball]

Based on some of these responses I think we can keep this core together and win about 35-45 games a year for the next 5 years. And the posters who oppose to losing games this season / TANKING, will continue to believe this core is 1/2 piece away from truly contending, and never complain about not making past 2nd round in the next 5 years.

Then natural progression of this core over those 5 years, will end up with bloated contracts and age-related declining performance, and we naturally end up in the high lottery from losing 50+ games a season. When we select lottery level prospects and become good again after another 3-4 years, the same posters will celebrate that we became good without TANKING

Seems like your entire identity as a Raps fan is tanking. The parade must have been rough on you.

There was a large contingent here who advocated that we tank during the offseason of the championship year.

If anyone is still joking about evauluating, they obviosly didn't understand it then, and still don't now. And yet they think they are funny with people laughing with them. Nope, its not with them.

I don't think anyone is advocating gutting the entire team.

You listen to the offers and start from there. Everyone not named Barnes is on the table.

Lol, that's exactly what they are advocating.

[Mr Funk]

I don't think the Raptors under Masai will ever fully blow anything up. You always want some sort of continuity because you can't sign free agents. If you're constantly rebuilding, you will continue to go through years of suckage when your team prices themselves out. I see more of a retool while shifting timelines. So, if Siakam is traded which I doubt, then it will be for someone who can make this team good again in a year or two.

Exactly.

Masai has been very clear about the fact that he likes the Pascal/OG/Scottie core and intends to build around it. He doesn't do fire sales and we won't tank or be in the wilderness for 2-5 seasons. I can't see Masai and Bobby wanting Scottie in his third season being on a heaily losing, completely garbage Raptors team.

The retool is coming with Gary and Fred likely being moved and if we continue to struggle, a stealth Tampa/rest players on certain nights tank for the remainder of the season.

[dagger]

The Raptors can get the sixth draft position pre-lottery with the current cast, just by sitting out Fred with his back spasms. Trading won't make it any better, and taking back bad contracts to make a trade work will ultimately be harmful. I wouldn't be surprised if the Raps trade at the deadline, but I wouldn't be shocked if they don't

[jepjep]

My preference: trade Fvv, trade Thad, Otto, Flynn, Boucher for future picks and if we r lucky, we get a top 5 draft pick next year

[Tacoma]

Since winning the Championship, we've had alternating good and bad seasons: 2020 (good), 2021 (bad), 2022 (good), 2023 (bad). Masai is surely evaluating but I don't see that he'll look to blow it up but instead seeking to turn it around again next season.

He'll listen to offers as usual but unless a can't refuse offer comes along, I expect him to keep the Siakam-Barnes-OG core but not others like GTJ and FVV. GTJ has (sadly) been one of our better outside shooters, so trading him for pick(s) or prospect(s) will make us worse and Nurse will be told to limit Siakam's minutes to tank the remainder of this season.

It'll be a one-season tank like 2021 and he'll maneuver in the offseason to trying to win again next season.