Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9

[brownbobcat]

He's like a Chameleon, most people don't see the high-end primary option, but thankfully, that's their loss.

This is pretty empty. We're in year 4 of him not showing floor-raising ability of any real meaning and not being able to put into practice consistent improvements which elevate him to even league-average efficiency. A high-end primary option could do that even on a bad team. He very, very clearly isn't that. Denying that is just delusional at this point. MAYBE he's got a big boost in store for year 5, but that's unlikely based on historical player development trends. And the further into his career he gets, particularly starting the entire time, the lower and lower we see his ultimate ceiling dropping.

For the time being, it doesn't change much in terms of choices for the FO.

Whether Barnes is or isn't a 1A option, they might as well continue down the path of developing him like one because there's no one else. The alternative likely isn't RJ, IQ, Dick or Jakobe, it's somebody who isn't even on the team yet.

Barnes has strengths that can't be taught, but also weaknesses that can't be fixed. I think shooting & handle can be fixed - doesn't mean it's likely but it is possible. If somebody wants to be super-optimistic about Barnes, my reaction is ... "Ehhh, ok. Why not?" For now, anyway.

[HangTime]

No offense, but this is a lot of excuses. He IS a younger guy. He needs to be improving. Outside of a 2 month hot streak (or at least what now looks like it) his 3pt shooting has been terrible. In the 2nd half of last year he shot 26% from 3.

We don't need him showcasing the vets. We need him to actually get better. This team goes as he goes and if he's taking a back seat to up the trade value of our vets we are screwed. None of the above reasons are valid excuses as to why his shooting hasn't improved, why he hasn't improved at getting to the rim or upped his FTr. His scoring game is just bad. Has barely made any progress as an iso or post-up player. Doesn't get to the rim or draw fouls. Can't shoot 3's. Even if his volume is reduced because he's "showcasing the vets or developing the young guys" he is still inefficient in too many areas. Hell, if he really is taking a step back for these reasons his efficiency should actually be better as he's able to pick his spots more.

It is a real concern that he's in year 4 and his scoring game hasn't really developed (outside of midrange shooting, which is probably the least valuable scoring skill when it's all you have).

He may be in year 4, but did you know notice how different his first 2 year's, and second half of year 3 were.

And yes, he's one of young guys, but he's so far ahead those guys we have. Let the whole team develop first, and he'll sprinkle in things here and there.


People are treating Scottie like a "Normal type of player" that's kind of how Nick Nurse played him, in a "normal role". On the rare occasion we'd see Scottie try to take over, because Fred and Pascal couldn't.

He's like a Chameleon, most people don't see the high-end primary option, but thankfully, that's their loss.

Is there any evidence this type of approach works? Even if your "wait for the other guys to catch up" theory is correct why is Barnes choosing to be bad in many scoring areas? Your entire argument is filled with contradictions.

Hey Scottie, why can't you hit 3's? "I can, just waiting for my teammates to catch up."

Hey Scottie, why can't you get to the rim consistently or draw fouls? "I can, just waiting for my team to catch up."

Hey Scottie, why haven't your iso or post-up number improved? "I could if I wanted, just waiting for my teammates to catch up."

None of these things have anything to do with "waiting for his teammates". Is he just choosing to shoot poorly from 3 until Walter is in his 3rd year?

1) Your hypothesis is that Barnes is purposely playing badly while he waits for his teammates to catch up.

2) You are pretty much arguing that Barnes is purposefully sabotaging this team by not playing his best.

3) Name one other successful NBA player who has ever taken this approach. And if your contention is that Barnes needs more reps as a #1 because he didn't get them with FVV/Siakam why isn't he getting them now? First he's hamstrung by FVV and Siakam and now he's waiting for the young guys to catch up.

4) I can't wait for Barnes to finally take charge in 2028.

"Don't worry guys, Barnes is star he's just choosing to hide it from us this season. He could play better if he wanted, make all-NBA and get an extra $40m but he's sacrificing for the team"

Don't you see how bad this argument is?

1) He's working on other parts of his game.

2) You may think what I'm saying is Sabotaging, but what I'm saying is that he's Sacrificing.
Exactly the way Pascal and Fred should have sacrificed for him.
He's doing that now for the others.

3) Again, He's not a "normal type of player" he did get some reps, but with Whacky spacing, That's to turn up the difficulty level.

4) We are literally in year 1 of the rebuild.


This is the way my mind Sees it

[tsherkin]

2) You may think what I'm saying is Sabotaging, but what I'm saying is that he's Sacrificing.
Exactly the way Pascal and Fred should have sacrificed for him.
He's doing that now for the others.

[

This very much isn't what is happening at all.

He isn't bricking shots to help his teammates...

For the time being, it doesn't change much in terms of choices for the FO.

Whether Barnes is or isn't a 1A option, they might as well continue down the path of developing him like one because there's no one else. The alternative likely isn't RJ, IQ, Dick or Jakobe, it's somebody who isn't even on the team yet.

We definitely need someone else, yes.

I think shooting & handle can be fixed - doesn't mean it's likely but it is possible.

His handle isn't really his issue. Not being Kyrie with the ball isn't a huge problem. Shooting, that's much more of a problem, as is taking too many threes at the expense of getting to the rim.

If somebody wants to be super-optimistic about Barnes, my reaction is ... "Ehhh, ok. Why not?" For now, anyway.

Eh. It's mostly delusional. The odds are very much against major improvement at this stage of his career, with his specific problems. So when folks talk about him that way, it will generally summon a fairly well-expected response at this point.

Figuring out what we CAN do with him and what he is good out, and how to support that? That's a more useful exchange. For now, though, he's at least a reasonable tank commander, I suppose.

Loosely, though, we know what it takes to win a title. There are like 4 titles in the last 45 years which haven't come with a pretty high-end focal scorer.

In the 80s, that was Bird and Magic. The Sixers were stacked. The Pistons had defense and good team play, but weren't stunning offensively. Sort of like the 04 Pistons. In the 90s, Jordan. And Hakeem, who was also a brutally-effective defensive anchor with some early spacing. Then we got the Duncan/Robinson Spurs, and Timmy was pretty nasty on O in those earlier seasons, especially in the early 2000s. And of course they added talent, leaned on D, etc and kept winning. Shaq/Kobe goes without saying, as do Wade/Shaq. The 08 Celtics had a Big Three coupled to league-altering defense. The Lakers had Kobe and Pau. The Mavs had Dirk + excellent defense. The Heat had Lebron and Wade, and Bosh fitting in after them. Then the Spurs again, this time with Kawhi. Then Steph. Then Lebron. Then the ridiculous Steph/KD Warriors. Then the Raptors with Kawhi. Then the Lakers with Lebron and AD. Then the Bucks with Giannis, Steph again, Jokic. Then Boston, though Tatum wasn't and isn't in the same class of offensive player as most of those guys. But they were brilliantly well-rounded on O, Tatum was still very good, and they crushed it defensively.

So we need to decide what we want to do. Barnes won't take us anywhere as our focal offensive player. So we need to decide if we want to tank for picks (be it to hit the generational guy or for Danny Ainge-style talent acquisition to move later in a trade), or if we want to scramble to make a good team that won't ever exit the conference. Because that's basically our palette of choice right now, unless something very surprising happens. And that's why we keep having this conversation about Barnes.

So yeah. As far as being in a rebuilding year, sure, I agree with you: we don't need to move him. Nor change much, I suppose, because we're losing quite effectively. Once we start acquiring more relevant assets, though, a tough choice will come up. He does some things pretty well, but unless he stops teasing us with the potential for competent scoring, we're probably going to have to move on at some point in the name of acquiring other assets. Unless something happens like we land Flagg and he pans out, and Gradey starts clicking and so forth. Then we can think about where he'll fit into that developing team, because obviously if you take out scoring, Scottie does a lot of very positive things.

[Vampirate]

His handle isn't really his issue. Not being Kyrie with the ball isn't a huge problem. Shooting, that's much more of a problem, as is taking too many threes at the expense of getting to the rim.

It is as he rarely has the defenses off guard with it.

In order for Barnes to reach another level he needs to have a stop/go game with his handle, pull up when defenses don't expect it, have them reach on his mid range for easy fouls.

He doesn't have that. He really needs to carve the defenses with his handle to get to the rim, not just with his size. And he needs to do it effortlessly.

[brownbobcat]

Eh. It's mostly delusional. The odds are very much against major improvement at this stage of his career, with his specific problems. So when folks talk about him that way, it will generally summon a fairly well-expected response at this point.

Figuring out what we CAN do with him and what he is good out, and how to support that? That's a more useful exchange. For now, though, he's at least a reasonable tank commander, I suppose.

Loosely, though, we know what it takes to win a title. There are like 4 titles in the last 45 years which haven't come with a pretty high-end focal scorer.

In the 80s, that was Bird and Magic. The Sixers were stacked. The Pistons had defense and good team play, but weren't stunning offensively. Sort of like the 04 Pistons. In the 90s, Jordan. And Hakeem, who was also a brutally-effective defensive anchor with some early spacing. Then we got the Duncan/Robinson Spurs, and Timmy was pretty nasty on O in those earlier seasons, especially in the early 2000s. And of course they added talent, leaned on D, etc and kept winning. Shaq/Kobe goes without saying, as do Wade/Shaq. The 08 Celtics had a Big Three coupled to league-altering defense. The Lakers had Kobe and Pau. The Mavs had Dirk + excellent defense. The Heat had Lebron and Wade, and Bosh fitting in after them. Then the Spurs again, this time with Kawhi. Then Steph. Then Lebron. Then the ridiculous Steph/KD Warriors. Then the Raptors with Kawhi. Then the Lakers with Lebron and AD. Then the Bucks with Giannis, Steph again, Jokic. Then Boston, though Tatum wasn't and isn't in the same class of offensive player as most of those guys. But they were brilliantly well-rounded on O, Tatum was still very good, and they crushed it defensively.

So we need to decide what we want to do. Barnes won't take us anywhere as our focal offensive player. So we need to decide if we want to tank for picks (be it to hit the generational guy or for Danny Ainge-style talent acquisition to move later in a trade), or if we want to scramble to make a good team that won't ever exit the conference. Because that's basically our palette of choice right now, unless something very surprising happens. And that's why we keep having this conversation about Barnes.

So yeah. As far as being in a rebuilding year, sure, I agree with you: we don't need to move him. Nor change much, I suppose, because we're losing quite effectively. Once we start acquiring more relevant assets, though, a tough choice will come up. He does some things pretty well, but unless he stops teasing us with the potential for competent scoring, we're probably going to have to move on at some point in the name of acquiring other assets. Unless something happens like we land Flagg and he pans out, and Gradey starts clicking and so forth. Then we can think about where he'll fit into that developing team, because obviously if you take out scoring, Scottie does a lot of very positive things.

I think the FO is very clearly tanking, but they do recognize that you can't just jettison every single useful player because the marginal gain from the improving lottery odds makes that counter-productive. For now, the results align with the strategy. They're racking up losses while focusing on developing BBQ-Dick into positive assets.

Right now, Barnes is sort of in Andre Iguodala territory minus the All-NBA defense. He's clearly skilled and productive, just not elite enough. Ideally we'd have Iggy on a GSW-like team, but the odds are probably more like a 76ers-esque roster. Odds change dramatically if we get somebody like Flagg, though.

[tsherkin]

I think the FO is very clearly tanking, but they do recognize that you can't just jettison every single useful player because the marginal gain from the improving lottery odds makes that counter-productive.

I agree. Like I said, he's a reasonable tank commander for now. The choice isn't about now; as I said, it's about when we start to acquire more meaningful assets.

Right now, Barnes is sort of in Andre Iguodala territory minus the All-NBA defense. He's clearly skilled and productive, just not elite enough. Ideally we'd have Iggy on a GSW-like team, but the odds are probably more like a 76ers-esque roster. Odds change dramatically if we get somebody like Flagg, though.

Yeah, I agree. If we somehow land Flagg and he pans out, then it changes the landscape for obvious reasons.

[tsherkin]

It is as he rarely has the defenses off guard with it.

In order for Barnes to reach another level he needs to have a stop/go game with his handle, pull up when defenses don't expect it, have them reach on his mid range for easy fouls.

He doesn't have that. He really needs to carve the defenses with his handle to get to the rim, not just with his size. And he needs to do it effortlessly.

I dunno, watching him, I don't see it as his issue. He can go where he wants to with basic moves. He gets past the first guy, gets into the paint. What he needs to work on is finishing in close, getting that extra bit to actually get into the RA. And, as you said, drawing fouls. I don't think his handle is really what's holding him back. Not in any technical sense. Maybe his approach, but not is actually faculty of control over the basketball in motion.

He NEEDS his shot to continue developing, and not just those elbow/nail pull-ups. He needs his FT and 3pt shooting to improve.

[brownbobcat]

I think the FO is very clearly tanking, but they do recognize that you can't just jettison every single useful player because the marginal gain from the improving lottery odds makes that counter-productive.

I agree. Like I said, he's a reasonable tank commander for now. The choice isn't about now; as I said, it's about when we start to acquire more meaningful assets.

Right now, Barnes is sort of in Andre Iguodala territory minus the All-NBA defense. He's clearly skilled and productive, just not elite enough. Ideally we'd have Iggy on a GSW-like team, but the odds are probably more like a 76ers-esque roster. Odds change dramatically if we get somebody like Flagg, though.

Yeah, I agree. If we somehow land Flagg and he pans out, then it changes the landscape for obvious reasons.

We ought to be in asset accumulation mode, which means don't trade any picks. Maybe for a young player still on their rookie contract, but that's it. That's why I was so enraged about the Thad and Poeltl deals - way too early to think about sacrificing potential for vets.

[Vampirate]

It is as he rarely has the defenses off guard with it.

In order for Barnes to reach another level he needs to have a stop/go game with his handle, pull up when defenses don't expect it, have them reach on his mid range for easy fouls.

He doesn't have that. He really needs to carve the defenses with his handle to get to the rim, not just with his size. And he needs to do it effortlessly.

I dunno, watching him, I don't see it as his issue. He can go where he wants to with basic moves. He gets past the first guy, gets into the paint. What he needs to work on is finishing in close, getting that extra bit to actually get into the RA. And, as you said, drawing fouls. I don't think his handle is really what's holding him back. Not in any technical sense. Maybe his approach, but not is actually faculty of control over the basketball in motion.

He NEEDS his shot to continue developing, and not just those elbow/nail pull-ups. He needs his FT and 3pt shooting to improve.

He was a 38.5% catch and shoot player last year and is at 29% currently, what on Earth happened?

This is depressing, he needs to pick a zone on the 3 point line and stick to it for now.

ATB 3s on the left and right need to be cut out, it's what's draining his percentages. Only top of the key and the corner he should shoot at this point imo.

[tsherkin]

We ought to be in asset accumulation mode, which means don't trade any picks. Maybe for a young player still on their rookie contract, but that's it. That's why I was so enraged about the Thad and Poeltl deals - way too early to think about sacrificing potential for vets.

Yeah. I like Poeltl, he's been pretty solid for us, but that wasn't ideal. I think management hadn't fully committed to us sucking yet.

He was a 38.5% catch and shoot player last year and is at 29% currently, what on Earth happened?

This is depressing, he needs to pick a zone on the 3 point line and stick to it for now.

He had two hot months. He was a 30.1% catch-and-shoot 3pt guy in 2023; last season was the outlier.

ATB 3s on the left and right need to be cut out, it's what's draining his percentages. Only top of the key and the corner he should shoot at this point imo.

Not a bad idea. Lower his overall volume in general. Focus on him getting southbound, or starting out in the post somewhere. He gets these wide-open threes all the time and just bricks the hell out of them. It's hard to see the value.

[brownbobcat]

His handle isn't really his issue. Not being Kyrie with the ball isn't a huge problem. Shooting, that's much more of a problem, as is taking too many threes at the expense of getting to the rim.

It is as he rarely has the defenses off guard with it.

In order for Barnes to reach another level he needs to have a stop/go game with his handle, pull up when defenses don't expect it, have them reach on his mid range for easy fouls.

He doesn't have that. He really needs to carve the defenses with his handle to get to the rim, not just with his size. And he needs to do it effortlessly.

Handles are not just about putting the defender on skates, it's about having complete control over your triple-threat options anytime and anywhere. It's about how quickly you can gather, how quickly you can get a pass off, etc. His handles and footwork are subpar.

[tsherkin]

Handles are not just about putting the defender on skates, it's about having complete control over your triple-threat options anytime and anywhere. It's about how quickly you can gather, how quickly you can get a pass off, etc. His handles and footwork are subpar.

Again, I think it's important to separate approach from technical ability, as they are not the same. I think Scottie needs a better plan of attack much more than he needs development in his technical control over the ball.

[brownbobcat]

Handles are not just about putting the defender on skates, it's about having complete control over your triple-threat options anytime and anywhere. It's about how quickly you can gather, how quickly you can get a pass off, etc. His handles and footwork are subpar.

Again, I think it's important to separate approach from technical ability, as they are not the same. I think Scottie needs a better plan of attack much more than he needs development in his technical control over the ball.

Oh he's got other issues there too, but it goes hand-in-hand partially. I'll give an example - what does Scottie frequently do when he gets into paint or when he gets pressured by the D? Turns his back to shield the ball since he doesn't have the handles to protect it face-up. That limits his options a lot as a primary ball-handler. Along with his higher center of gravity (which he can't really change), it's also why he doesn't bully defenders on drives as often/well as he could be.

[Tacoma]

He may be in year 4, but did you know notice how different his first 2 year's, and second half of year 3 were.

And yes, he's one of young guys, but he's so far ahead those guys we have. Let the whole team develop first, and he'll sprinkle in things here and there.


People are treating Scottie like a "Normal type of player" that's kind of how Nick Nurse played him, in a "normal role". On the rare occasion we'd see Scottie try to take over, because Fred and Pascal couldn't.

He's like a Chameleon, most people don't see the high-end primary option, but thankfully, that's their loss.

Is there any evidence this type of approach works? Even if your "wait for the other guys to catch up" theory is correct why is Barnes choosing to be bad in many scoring areas? Your entire argument is filled with contradictions.

Hey Scottie, why can't you hit 3's? "I can, just waiting for my teammates to catch up."

Hey Scottie, why can't you get to the rim consistently or draw fouls? "I can, just waiting for my team to catch up."

Hey Scottie, why haven't your iso or post-up number improved? "I could if I wanted, just waiting for my teammates to catch up."

None of these things have anything to do with "waiting for his teammates". Is he just choosing to shoot poorly from 3 until Walter is in his 3rd year?

1) Your hypothesis is that Barnes is purposely playing badly while he waits for his teammates to catch up.

2) You are pretty much arguing that Barnes is purposefully sabotaging this team by not playing his best.

3) Name one other successful NBA player who has ever taken this approach. And if your contention is that Barnes needs more reps as a #1 because he didn't get them with FVV/Siakam why isn't he getting them now? First he's hamstrung by FVV and Siakam and now he's waiting for the young guys to catch up.

4) I can't wait for Barnes to finally take charge in 2028.

"Don't worry guys, Barnes is star he's just choosing to hide it from us this season. He could play better if he wanted, make all-NBA and get an extra $40m but he's sacrificing for the team"

Don't you see how bad this argument is?

1) He's working on other parts of his game.

2) You may think what I'm saying is Sabotaging, but what I'm saying is that he's Sacrificing.
Exactly the way Pascal and Fred should have sacrificed for him.
He's doing that now for the others.

3) Again, He's not a "normal type of player" he did get some reps, but with Whacky spacing, That's to turn up the difficulty level.

4) We are literally in year 1 of the rebuild.

This is the way my mind Sees it

Wow, this level of excusing a player from responsibility ranks right up there with Bosh stealing Bargnani's rebounds.

But I see now... it wasn't that Bargnani was a bad/lazy rebounder but rather that he was sacrificing himself so that Bosh and others can get their rebounds. Thanks for making me see the light.

[tsherkin]

Oh he's got other issues there too, but it goes hand-in-hand partially. I'll give an example - what does Scottie frequently do when he gets into paint or when he gets pressured by the D? Turns his back to shield the ball since he doesn't have the handles to protect it face-up.

That is generally taught as a fundamental, especially for a guy with his size. I don't think that's a deficiency of ability, I think that's what he's been taught to do, personally. And frankly, once he gets into the paint, unless he's stepping to the rim, he SHOULD be turning his back like that.

He isn't going to be Kyrie; we know this. He also doesn't have the speed to really put pressure on the rim like that. So getting south and getting his back between him and the defender is a good idea, especially once he gets command of that turnaround a little more.

[brownbobcat]

Oh he's got other issues there too, but it goes hand-in-hand partially. I'll give an example - what does Scottie frequently do when he gets into paint or when he gets pressured by the D? Turns his back to shield the ball since he doesn't have the handles to protect it face-up.

That is generally taught as a fundamental, especially for a guy with his size. I don't think that's a deficiency of ability, I think that's what he's been taught to do, personally. And frankly, once he gets into the paint, unless he's stepping to the rim, he SHOULD be turning his back like that.

He isn't going to be Kyrie; we know this. He also doesn't have the speed to really put pressure on the rim like that. So getting south and getting his back between him and the defender is a good idea, especially once he gets command of that turnaround a little more.

My point is not that turning your back is bad, it's that he doesn't have any other options. Once it's turned, his lack of control (and footwork) prevents him from quick pivots and changes of direction. It's not about speed - look at Luka or Harden. They don't blow by defenders with speed, but once they get the right angle and a sliver of space, they're impossible to stop with their mass and body control. Kawhi does it differently with his forearm push-off, but it's the same idea.

[tsherkin]

My point is not that turning your back is bad, it's that he doesn't have any other options.

Right, and my counterpoint is that we already knew he doesn't have choices. He doesn't have the speed to accelerate through, so his handle is somewhat irrelevant at that point.

Once it's turned, his lack of control (and footwork) prevents him from quick pivots and changes of direction.

I've seen him pivot fine. What he needs to do is tighten the arc of his pivot, that's all. He steps too wide too frequently.

It's not about speed - look at Luka or Harden. They don't blow by defenders with speed, but once they get the right angle and a sliver of space, they're impossible to stop with their mass and body control. Kawhi does it differently with his forearm push-off, but it's the same idea.

They can all shoot. They have relevant counters. And both Luka and Harden take an inordinate number of extremely stupid stepback threes. Harden also does a lot of Euro-stepping, which is something Scottie needs to add to his game, for sure. But Harden, now that his quickness is gone, sucks dirty ass at getting to the rim, and isn't finishing well when he gets there (for the 2nd year in 3, at that). So he's not an amazing point of comparison.

Doncic is ALSO actually garbage at getting to the basket. He finishes well when he gets there but he's not a dude who gets there a ton at all.

[brownbobcat]

My point is not that turning your back is bad, it's that he doesn't have any other options.

Right, and my counterpoint is that we already knew he doesn't have choices. He doesn't have the speed to accelerate through, so his handle is somewhat irrelevant at that point.

I'm saying that developing better handle/footwork will give him those choices. Don't get me wrong, I think that shooting needs to be his biggest area of focus, but he needs better ball control to improve as an offensive hub.

I've seen him pivot fine. What he needs to do is tighten the arc of his pivot, that's all. He steps too wide too frequently.

"Fine" is relative. If his goal is to be an offensive hub, it needs to be really good given his other areas of weakness. Jokic is an unfair comparison because he's a 3X MVP but his footwork and balance at size is phenomenal. That's how he gets away with being a hub despite a so-so handle. Yes, Joker has many other gifts which help his playmaking but I'm just using specific examples here.

The wide pivot helps Scottie create space for that turnaround, but if he can't pull off any other counters to get closer from the same starting footwork? That's a problem because he'll only be efficient at one of the worst shots in the game.

They can all shoot. They have relevant counters. And both Luka and Harden take an inordinate number of extremely stupid stepback threes. Harden also does a lot of Euro-stepping, which is something Scottie needs to add to his game, for sure. But Harden, now that his quickness is gone, sucks dirty ass at getting to the rim, and isn't finishing well when he gets there (for the 2nd year in 3, at that). So he's not an amazing point of comparison.

Doncic is ALSO actually garbage at getting to the basket. He finishes well when he gets there but he's not a dude who gets there a ton at all.

You need footwork and handles to string counters together. Again, I'm focusing on one aspect of their game - obviously they are very different players than Barnes. Except with 2 seconds left, Luka is not an amazing shooter, though obviously better than Barnes. He creates a ton of pressure at the rim from his drives and ability to dish to every spot on the floor. Yes, both he and Harden spam a lot of 3s but I would say this is a case where the totals matter as much as percentages. Defenses yield the 3 because they're deadly once they penetrate into the paint.

[tsherkin]

I'm saying that developing better handle/footwork will give him those choices. Don't get me wrong, I think that shooting needs to be his biggest area of focus, but he needs better ball control to improve as an offensive hub.

I don't think handle is the answer at all, that's what I'm saying. Footwork, sure, but I don't think ball-handling is going to be what helps him here.

"Fine" is relative. If his goal is to be an offensive hub,

I think that ship is long-sailed at this point.

The wide pivot helps Scottie create space for that turnaround,

It is unnecessary for the turnaround. We've seen that in many players. He does need other counters besides just that, but it is one he's showing right now, hence my mention.

You need footwork and handles to string counters together. Again, I'm focusing on one aspect of their game - obviously they are very different players than Barnes. Except with 2 seconds left, Luka is not an amazing shooter, though obviously better than Barnes. He creates a ton of pressure at the rim from his drives and ability to dish to every spot on the floor. Yes, both he and Harden spam a lot of 3s but I would say this is a case where the totals matter as much as percentages. Defenses yield the 3 because they're deadly once they penetrate into the paint.

Luka does have an excellent handle and it does help him with a lot of things. My point was more that he doesn't GET to the rim more effectively because of it. He's actually trash at that. But he's also a somewhat overrated scorer to begin with. And I disagree about the threes, I think both of them waste a lot of shots chucking low-quality 3s with too much clock remaining very often, and it's not good, particularly at their percentages. I understand the need to use it sometimes, and obviously using a given basic volume to set things up, but I think both overdo it significantly.

[brownbobcat]

Luka does have an excellent handle and it does help him with a lot of things. My point was more that he doesn't GET to the rim more effectively because of it. He's actually trash at that. But he's also a somewhat overrated scorer to begin with. And I disagree about the threes, I think both of them waste a lot of shots chucking low-quality 3s with too much clock remaining very often, and it's not good, particularly at their percentages. I understand the need to use it sometimes, and obviously using a given basic volume to set things up, but I think both overdo it significantly.

I think there's a big difference between creating pressure vs. taking a shot at the rim. Luka unquestionably puts a ton of pressure in the paint when he opts to drive. And despite the # of 3s jacked up, he does drive a ton - he's top 5 every year. Obviously he doesn't have the athleticism of a LeBron to just explode all the way to the rack, but he forces a double or collapse.

We don't have to get hung up on specific players, we can pick any slow-ish player who is still able to create face-up dribble pressure without Kyrie handles or D. Fox speed - Brunson, Lowry, Kawhi, old LeBron, etc.