Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better?

[PushDaRock]

f his best role is as a 4th/5th option then his contract might end up being a massive overpayment.

I am not worried about his contract at all. Assuming he flatlines and does not improve any further, his traditional stats combined with his size and age, are just enough that it will entice another team. Even at age 25 and making 45M, there would be a handful of teams interested in a 6'7" player giving you 20/8/6. Add in his pedigree (high 1st rounder, destined for the NBA since he was 16), his A/S appearance, and his ROY, there would undoubtedly be a few GMs that think they can fix him. We can dine out a few more years on those past accolades IMO.

What I am more worried about, and agree with, is the premise of this thread. He already shattered any belief I had that he could be a top option, but now even a 2nd option looks dicey. He does not instill any confidence at all, and his offense is often painful to watch. Even if he played 35 minutes tonight, I would put more money on him scoring 10 points than I would 25.

Obviously it's a lost season so everyone essentially gets a free pass, but man, I don't know how anyone can say they feel great about what he's shown this season.

At a certain point we might need to give up on building around him and finding an alternative to finding a superstar player in the league.

During that presser after they traded Siakam, one of the first questions to Masai was about handing the keys to Scottie and if he was ready and his response, after a deep breath, was "I hope so". That said it all to me. Masai is usually pretty slick with his BS platitudes (that so many still fall for lol), and that was a rare moment of brutal honesty. I think jettisoning Siakam and OG was more about just simply not wanting to pay them what they wanted. I've never had the sense that the FO feels they absolutely have their franchise cornerstone and we are building around him, and him only. Acquiring Ingram AND then still trying to bottom out, while having a decent chance at the play-in, doesn't scream to me that "we have our franchise guy".

Some guys are just on the right team at the right time and that is what happened with Scottie IMO. Showed just enough flashes that you can sell him to the fanbase, and max him while doing so. He certainly isn't the first guy a team paid and sold like he is THE man, and he certainly won't be the last. Happens on every team, in every sport really.

I'm not concerned about the contract in year 1 and 2, but 3, 4 and 5 is a question mark if this is what he is and has flatlined. That draft pedigree, ROY, AS stuff loses it's shine when he's in his mid to late 20's.

Getting Ingram is 100% an admission from Masai that Scottie is not the guy. That deal would never have happened if Masai believed Scottie still could be a #1 option in this league.

[tsherkin]

That deal would never have happened if Masai believed Scottie still could be a #1 option in this league.

Masai isn't a moron. We may argue with his half-in, half-out approach to everything, but he's not an idiot.

4 years in, you'd have to be particularly delusional to believe that Scottie's suddenly going to break out into the caliber of player necessary for a contention-level #1 option.

There are definitely guys who slow-burn their way into greater relevance. Usually, it takes more specific shaping of their possession types and usage. Lots of corner threes, lots of spoon-fed possessions, that sort of thing. And if they iso too much, they tend to fall apart in the playoffs. Or they end up as high-variance guys like Lowry. But they typically have strong foul draw to begin with and other tools, right? Scottie doesn't follow that template, he has no elite tools to lean on, and we don't really have another half decade to wait if we want to actually be any kind of good any time soon. He wasn't even impressive when we had him in a lower-usage role.

[MainEvent]

Scottie's hard-wired to be a role player. He averaged 12 ppg his senior year of HS and 10 ppg in college. Trying to turn him into a go-to scorer for the first time in his life, at the highest level of basketball, was a tall task.

100% this


It's almost like if we hyped up Dick who was probably never a great defender to be a stopper and the best on the team at the NBA level magically and then complaining when he's not

next year Scottie will be the 3rdish scorer so hopefully his efficiency will rise with BI and a healthy roster where he doesn't get asked to force it so much. Still is a beast in other ways but he's not a go to scorer.

Having BI will be nice next year in tight games/short clock situations. Scottie is not a 1on1 iso guy, IQ can struggle to get his shot off in crunch time and RJ can't hit a pull up from anywhere so they play him 4 the drive.

[ATLTimekeeper]

There is something to be said for a talented player that is willing to play a role & do it at an elite level. Sometimes we get too caught up in scoring.

I would take a prime Iggy over Siakam.

Prime Iggy in the role that Prime Iggy was given, was a consistent loser. You have a bias to defense, but you should consider the price point and the actual role that defense comes with. There is an on court price to pay when you aren't a scary threat with the ball in your hands, but you get the ball a lot. Meanwhile, scorers can D up when called to action. Especially a guy like Pascal, who won a chip as a two way player.

Part of effective team-building is understanding that the market does favour scorers, so you have to save your bones for scorers first, or you have to somehow find cheap scoring. Meanwhile, defense is much cheaper. Always has been. People don't go to games to watch stops.

[junot111]

There is something to be said for a talented player that is willing to play a role & do it at an elite level. Sometimes we get too caught up in scoring.

I would take a prime Iggy over Siakam.

That's crazy disrespect to Spicy P. We don't win in 2019 with any version of Iguodala replacing Siakam.

[no dice]

Scottie is fine. I feel like too many people are taking him for granted nowadays. The thing that he needs the most is more maturity in mentality. He is not really a natural leader yet as he is a bit of a goofball. As someone previously mentioned having Fred or Thad in the pecking order helped him grow quicker. Now he is the guy and it will only take time

[MEDIC]

There is something to be said for a talented player that is willing to play a role & do it at an elite level. Sometimes we get too caught up in scoring.

I would take a prime Iggy over Siakam.

That's crazy disrespect to Spicy P. We don't win in 2019 with any version of Iguodala replacing Siakam.

The biggest issue would be fit. Pascal was a better fit beside Kawhi without a doubt.

They are both high end role.players at their best though.

[MEDIC]

There is something to be said for a talented player that is willing to play a role & do it at an elite level. Sometimes we get too caught up in scoring.

I would take a prime Iggy over Siakam.

Prime Iggy in the role that Prime Iggy was given, was a consistent loser. You have a bias to defense, but you should consider the price point and the actual role that defense comes with. There is an on court price to pay when you aren't a scary threat with the ball in your hands, but you get the ball a lot. Meanwhile, scorers can D up when called to action. Especially a guy like Pascal, who won a chip as a two way player.

Part of effective team-building is understanding that the market does favour scorers, so you have to save your bones for scorers first, or you have to somehow find cheap scoring. Meanwhile, defense is much cheaper. Always has been. People don't go to games to watch stops.

It's tough. Pascal us a valuable player.....as was Bosh. But if you try to win a championship with any those guys as your # 1 or even unquestionable #2, it probably ain't happening.

They are at their best as a 3rd tier scorer while tasked with playing very good defense.

Iggy was at his best when he settled in as a high end role player. He knew his role, accepted it & mastered it.

[PushDaRock]

There is something to be said for a talented player that is willing to play a role & do it at an elite level. Sometimes we get too caught up in scoring.

I would take a prime Iggy over Siakam.

Prime Iggy in the role that Prime Iggy was given, was a consistent loser. You have a bias to defense, but you should consider the price point and the actual role that defense comes with. There is an on court price to pay when you aren't a scary threat with the ball in your hands, but you get the ball a lot. Meanwhile, scorers can D up when called to action. Especially a guy like Pascal, who won a chip as a two way player.

Part of effective team-building is understanding that the market does favour scorers, so you have to save your bones for scorers first, or you have to somehow find cheap scoring. Meanwhile, defense is much cheaper. Always has been. People don't go to games to watch stops.

It's tough. Pascal us a valuable player.....as was Bosh. But if you try to win a championship with any those guys as your # 1 or even unquestionable #2, it probably ain't happening.

They are at their best as a 3rd tier scorer while tasked with playing very good defense.

Iggy was at his best when he settled in as a high end role player. He knew his role, accepted it & mastered it.

Are you still considering his Warriors years where he averaged under 10 ppg every year as Prime Iggy?

Because that's the only time he won anything.

[Tha Cynic]

I’ll take Barnes if he’s Kevin Garnett lite meaning he’s an elite defender, be a 2nd/3rd option scorer, and be consistent night in/night out. He’s 23 so he still has time but he has to be more efficient, however, the organization is trying to put him out of his comfort zone so you are seeing less than optimal results. Hopefully by next season, we have some good defensive and offensive players so Scotty wouldn’t have to do as much as he’s doing currently.

This is my view on this right now. This thread is a massacre of Barnes and anyone who’s trying to defend him (5 people) as he has been dogs-hit on offense and there are no stats that will support you.

There’s no point here as everything about Barnes and offense will rely heavily on hope of improvement. He wasn’t someone who came into the league with any sort of offense and he hasn’t shown enough statistical improvement on offense or even the indication that he cares about being an offensive player. He definitely gets more hyped passing and defending.

But he needs to really put focus on strength areas and just get efficient year over year. His close to the basket scoring, midrange and ability to draw free throws needs to go up. If he gets back to last year he’s an all star level player, but I think he can be more refined.

His impact on winning I think will be realized when we are winning.

[Tha Cynic]

f his best role is as a 4th/5th option then his contract might end up being a massive overpayment.

I am not worried about his contract at all. Assuming he flatlines and does not improve any further, his traditional stats combined with his size and age, are just enough that it will entice another team. Even at age 25 and making 45M, there would be a handful of teams interested in a 6'7" player giving you 20/8/6. Add in his pedigree (high 1st rounder, destined for the NBA since he was 16), his A/S appearance, and his ROY, there would undoubtedly be a few GMs that think they can fix him. We can dine out a few more years on those past accolades IMO.

What I am more worried about, and agree with, is the premise of this thread. He already shattered any belief I had that he could be a top option, but now even a 2nd option looks dicey. He does not instill any confidence at all, and his offense is often painful to watch. Even if he played 35 minutes tonight, I would put more money on him scoring 10 points than I would 25.

Obviously it's a lost season so everyone essentially gets a free pass, but man, I don't know how anyone can say they feel great about what he's shown this season.

At a certain point we might need to give up on building around him and finding an alternative to finding a superstar player in the league.

During that presser after they traded Siakam, one of the first questions to Masai was about handing the keys to Scottie and if he was ready and his response, after a deep breath, was "I hope so". That said it all to me. Masai is usually pretty slick with his BS platitudes (that so many still fall for lol), and that was a rare moment of brutal honesty. I think jettisoning Siakam and OG was more about just simply not wanting to pay them what they wanted. I've never had the sense that the FO feels they absolutely have their franchise cornerstone and we are building around him, and him only. Acquiring Ingram AND then still trying to bottom out, while having a decent chance at the play-in, doesn't scream to me that "we have our franchise guy".

Some guys are just on the right team at the right time and that is what happened with Scottie IMO. Showed just enough flashes that you can sell him to the fanbase, and max him while doing so. He certainly isn't the first guy a team paid and sold like he is THE man, and he certainly won't be the last. Happens on every team, in every sport really.

I agree with most of your post. I don’t think the front office ever truly believed this was their Doncic but they had a very good young player and they wanted to change timelines. They got younger, they changed attitudes and rebuilt the team in the mode they had during the Lowry years with youth and ton of depth. That team was always missing their superstar and this team will too until they land one. Barnes was the defacto best player because he was the obvious choice. There aren’t many superstars in the league. But you can build a team that sustains winning and had great habits with the hope of landing that star.

The plan to me is the same as it has always been but we now have development and youth back . But Barnes needs to still get better offensively. I do think he will be one of the two most important players on a contender here.

[Raps in 4]

I was a huge Scottie stan from the moment I saw him in his first summer league game, but he's been a massive disappointment this season. Not only has he not improved, but he's arguably regressed. The complete lack of scoring instinct this far into his development is disappointing, to say the least. I don't even think it's a skill deficit. He could easily be doing more in the paint with his size, but he simply prefers to play passively.

[Raps in 4]

There is something to be said for a talented player that is willing to play a role & do it at an elite level. Sometimes we get too caught up in scoring.

I would take a prime Iggy over Siakam.

I wouldn't take Iggy over Siakam in any context.

But that aside, the problem with Scottie embracing his identity as a role player is that we needed him to be more than that. This team desperately lacks top-end talent. We used a 4th overall pick to draft Scottie. Both Franz and Sengun have turned out to be much better scorers (the latter being able to do what Scottie does, in addition to scoring). Both were selected after Scottie in the draft.

If this is Scottie's peak, then Masai didn't do too well with that pick. I'm praying for a miracle leap in production next season, but I'm not expecting it. This roster, with Scottie playing at this level, is no better than the Siakam-Fred-OG core, and that's depressing.

[Tripod]

There is something to be said for a talented player that is willing to play a role & do it at an elite level. Sometimes we get too caught up in scoring.

I would take a prime Iggy over Siakam.

I wouldn't take Iggy over Siakam in any context.

But that aside, the problem with Scottie embracing his identity as a role player is that we needed him to be more than that. This team desperately lacks top-end talent. We used a 4th overall pick to draft Scottie. Both Franz and Sengun have turned out to be much better scorers (the latter being able to do what Scottie does, in addition to scoring). Both were selected after Scottie in the draft.

If this is Scottie's peak, then Masai didn't do too well with that pick. I'm praying for a miracle leap in production next season, but I'm not expecting it. This roster, with Scottie playing at this level, is no better than the Siakam-Fred-OG core, and that's depressing.

Not even Iggy winning playoff MVP?

[Thaddy]

I hope the hand injury is the reason he's been trash lately.

[Walid]

If he can accept and become a key, consistent 3rd/4th option for us if we are able to reach contender status (more likely pretender), that would be big. Though I think we should assess his market value over the next two seasons and sell high if we can.

[Scase]

Remember when FVV and Thad was getting at Barnes to get him to work harder, and we all turned on them?

We owe Thad and especially FVV an apology. I lowkey miss his pecking order... make the young fellas hungry and take the ball/your position. Watching him mentor the young players in Houston, and watching their coaching staff/vets hold their young guys accountable is making me sad/jealous.

Suggesting that he hasn't worked hard is one of the stupidest things you can possibly say, anyone with eyes is aware that he is being used very poorly. Scottie will never be a 1st/2nd scoring option, he's not cut out for it, but that has nothing to do with his effort.

[Boogie!]

Is there even anyone left on this forum who thinks he's being held back or something? We know more or less what he is offensively now. His game can still be polished but he's not your go-to guy.

Nobody is saying he’s held back but there’s still people somehow rationalizing his bad performances with we’re tanking, it doesn’t matter he’s “developing”, he needs to play inside more, he’s trying to get others involved, etc etc etc. either that or they just completely ignore the fact that he’s shooting 44/26% splits. That’s worse than bargnanis most inefficient season with us as a first option where he succumbed to injury and only played 31 games. And that doesn’t even take into account the eye test where after 4 seasons he still doesn’t have a go to move.

[Boogie!]

Remember when FVV and Thad was getting at Barnes to get him to work harder, and we all turned on them?

We owe Thad and especially FVV an apology. I lowkey miss his pecking order... make the young fellas hungry and take the ball/your position. Watching him mentor the young players in Houston, and watching their coaching staff/vets hold their young guys accountable is making me sad/jealous.

Suggesting that he hasn't worked hard is one of the stupidest things you can possibly say, anyone with eyes is aware that he is being used very poorly. Scottie will never be a 1st/2nd scoring option, he's not cut out for it, but that has nothing to do with his effort.

Case in point. Nothing is ever Scottie’s fault to some people, he’s being used poorly etc. I said he was being used poorly in his sophomore season when I thought he needed a bigger role. But after he was handed the keys and he’s shown us this, it should be obvious by now that it has nothing to do with how he’s being used. He’s just not as good as everyone thought. People need to start accepting this.

[MEDIC]

Prime Iggy in the role that Prime Iggy was given, was a consistent loser. You have a bias to defense, but you should consider the price point and the actual role that defense comes with. There is an on court price to pay when you aren't a scary threat with the ball in your hands, but you get the ball a lot. Meanwhile, scorers can D up when called to action. Especially a guy like Pascal, who won a chip as a two way player.

Part of effective team-building is understanding that the market does favour scorers, so you have to save your bones for scorers first, or you have to somehow find cheap scoring. Meanwhile, defense is much cheaper. Always has been. People don't go to games to watch stops.

It's tough. Pascal us a valuable player.....as was Bosh. But if you try to win a championship with any those guys as your # 1 or even unquestionable #2, it probably ain't happening.

They are at their best as a 3rd tier scorer while tasked with playing very good defense.

Iggy was at his best when he settled in as a high end role player. He knew his role, accepted it & mastered it.

Are you still considering his Warriors years where he averaged under 10 ppg every year as Prime Iggy?

Because that's the only time he won anything.

Yeah. He won NBA Finals.MVP.

That was probably Iggy at his best.