How is this not a super Mid plan? what's the pitch on our direction

[Duffman100]

The outlook on the team will be a lot different in 12 months

- How does BI workout?
- Which young player pops for us?
- Does Scottie take that next step with a proven scorer in BI ?
- What trades do we make to improve the team? RJ? etc
- Does Masai hit on the 2025 draft?

A lot of questions... but there will be a lot of answers good or bad

Concerns are valid. Let's see

Basically this is it. lol.

[YogurtProducer]

The outlook on the team will be a lot different in 12 months

- How does BI workout?
- Which young player pops for us?
- Does Scottie take that next step with a proven scorer in BI ?
- What trades do we make to improve the team? RJ? etc
- Does Masai hit on the 2025 draft?

A lot of questions... but there will be a lot of answers good or bad

Concerns are valid. Let's see

Basically this is it. lol.

And the best part is that if it goes up in flames... we can just tank/rebuild like some people call for every time we don't have an immediate contender.

Thats the great part about rebuilding! You can literally pivot to it at any point!

[mtcan]

This thread is 10 months premature.

We still don't know what a full season looks like with the roster we have even without BI. Maybe let's wait until after trade deadline in 2026 before making knee jerk reactions when there are so many possibilities on how this roster can change between now and then.

1) still haven't seen a full season with BBQPDW

2) still haven't seen what BBQPDW plays with BI

3) how does the 9th pick get utilized?

4) we are still below the luxury tax so multi player trades are still possible

5) we still have all our picks going forward

6) organic growth - we still get to see Dick, Walter, Shead, Mogbo, Battle and Chomche grow as players...so by virtue of that we will certainly be better

Like I said...so many ways the roster can look different in the span of a year. We have guys that are on very tradeable contracts, a stable of young players, we have all our picks and aren't hard capped so it is very conceivable that there will be trades made.

This isn't the final form of the team so quit worrying. And no...this is not a treadmill team.

[Scase]

People understand there are cycles, and you would be hard-pressed to find anyone complaining that we are in a downtime, what people are complaining about is the listless nature of it, and constant attempts to recapture something from 5-10 years ago that just won't work.

I think at this point, raking the franchise over the coals isn't going to achieve much, yeah? We have some positive things happening right now, regardless of how the past few years have unfolded since the title. We should probably be focusing on that. We certainly aren't positioned to contend any time soon, but even drafting Flagg wasn't going to make that happen. So we should be looking forward to improved quality of games, and a little more excitement in our recreation other than hoping for lottery balls bouncing our way after a dreadful season.

It's not about raking them over the coals, it's about combating falsehoods like stating that everyone unhappy with the team is expecting something incredibly unrealistic like being a contender year in and year out.

There's no need for people to be making grand and stupid statements like that when it's pretty evident that people are unhappy with the direction and the mismanagement, not that we should be a more dominant dynasty than the MJ led bulls.

I've stated elsewhere that this should be a more watchable and ultimately more enjoyable season no doubt, but that's not what I was responding to.

Likely because some posters have unrealistic expectations, and expect us to be contenders every year, not realizing all teams go through cycles. Thus, why there are different championship teams every season.

Or it's because posters like you have an inability to differentiate between contenders every year, and having a basic plan. This team has been aimless for the last 5 years with no plan in mind.

Siakam/FVV? Let's build around them, except we won't actually build a complimentary roster. Didn't work out? Better let one of them walk in FA and then hold 2 expiring players much longer than we should, but not before we make a short sighted trade for a centre who exacerbates the teams problems.

This went south? Let's trade everyone away and start a rebuild, publicly state this is year one of a rebuild, then less than 6 months later make a win now re-tool trade for BI.

People understand there are cycles, and you would be hard-pressed to find anyone complaining that we are in a downtime, what people are complaining about is the listless nature of it, and constant attempts to recapture something from 5-10 years ago that just won't work.

This last sentence is where the crux of the problem is.
How do we know it "just won't work"?
I've got my doubts about roster construction like many others do, and the cap situation isn't great. But to say that it won't work when we haven't seen the full product on the court, and half of the roster are rookies/on rookie deals, nevermind the prospect of future moves, is the same kind of attitude that even I was guilty of during the Derozan and Bosh years.

IND made the ECF and appear on their way to the Finals. I honestly don't see a huge gulf between a healthy Raptors team and this Pacers team. There's an opportunity to make some deep playoff runs in the East in the coming year or two, so why not try for it? Our future assets are intact, and we have young players to fall back on if a full tear down is required in 2 years. Would I rather us have lucked into Wemby or Flagg? Maybe. SA is laughing right now but that was a mostly a product of LUCK, with some GM planning/skill sprinkled in. I wouldn't exactly trade our position for many other "tanking" teams other than them.


I was very down on the Raps last year, moreso than most. I took the under on the Vegas wins bets, so it's not like I'm some blind homer. But it feels like I'm now higher on the Raps for '25-26 than most. Will wait to see how the draft and FA pans out, but I'm already leaning to betting the over on the Vegas win totals, whatever they are.

I could have been slightly more diplomatic and say that it is extremely unlikely it will work, but when I'm seeing things that require like 5-10 really unlikely events to transpire for something to work out, that might as well be funcitonally impossible.

We're attempting the same thing as the first chip, with worse players, so you're already on the back foot. BI is worse than Siakam, Scottie is worse than Lowry and needs to take massive leaps, RJ and IQ are heavily flawed players, we have a bunch of late 1sts or 2nds that need to vastly exceed what is statistically likely for players in that range, and to top it all off, even if all that actually transpires we need another once in a lifetime trade like we did with Kawhi.

I don't know how you can look at the Pacers and not see much of a gap between our healthy team and theirs, especially when that health heavily relies on a guy who hasn't been healthy in 8 of his 9 years in the NBA. The team will absolutely be better next year, even if only Ingram continues to be a health issue, but I don't see anything about our current roster that screams potential. If the likelihood of this whole thing turning into a massive success is like 1% (my opinion obviously) then it might as well not exist to me.

My criticisms are not that the team won't be better, but rather that it won't make much of a difference in the grand scheme of things, I don't consider a 1st round playoff team in a horrifically weak conference to be something to celebrate.

[tsherkin]

It's not about raking them over the coals, it's about combating falsehoods like stating that everyone unhappy with the team is expecting something incredibly unrealistic like being a contender year in and year out.

There's no need for people to be making grand and stupid statements like that when it's pretty evident that people are unhappy with the direction and the mismanagement, not that we should be a more dominant dynasty than the MJ led bulls.

Well, we have a fresh off-season to see what he does, no?

We have a lot of off-season ahead of us to see what he can do with the present roster. If we ARE trying to move into a win-now mode, we should expect trades, and that could totally change everyone's opinion on the team, it's direction, and management.

[Scase]

It's not about raking them over the coals, it's about combating falsehoods like stating that everyone unhappy with the team is expecting something incredibly unrealistic like being a contender year in and year out.

There's no need for people to be making grand and stupid statements like that when it's pretty evident that people are unhappy with the direction and the mismanagement, not that we should be a more dominant dynasty than the MJ led bulls.

Well, we have a fresh off-season to see what he does, no?

We have a lot of off-season ahead of us to see what he can do with the present roster. If we ARE trying to move into a win-now mode, we should expect trades, and that could totally change everyone's opinion on the team, it's direction, and management.

Absolutely, but I can't comment on what may or may not happen in the future, so my analysis is based on the current status of the team. Realistically I don't think we can expect some massive overhaul over the course of the offseason, barring some crazy Giannis trade, so trades around the fringes might improve the team, but won't dramatically shift my outlook.

If anything major happens I will happily reassess, but for the current roster, I expect improvements from last year, but nothing that will give me some sort of hope for the future. And in the event we are trying for a win now timeline, just because trades should be made, doesn't mean they will be made. We've all seen in the past when things should have been done, but didn't. Fool me once, shame on me.

This team doesn't inspire "Just imagine the things we can achieve" but rather "Well at least it won't be as bad as last year", and while that may be enough for some, it's not moving the needle for me.

[YogurtProducer]

It's not about raking them over the coals, it's about combating falsehoods like stating that everyone unhappy with the team is expecting something incredibly unrealistic like being a contender year in and year out.

There's no need for people to be making grand and stupid statements like that when it's pretty evident that people are unhappy with the direction and the mismanagement, not that we should be a more dominant dynasty than the MJ led bulls.

We're attempting the same thing as the first chip, with worse players, so you're already on the back foot. BI is worse than Siakam, Scottie is worse than Lowry and needs to take massive leaps, RJ and IQ are heavily flawed players, we have a bunch of late 1sts or 2nds that need to vastly exceed what is statistically likely for players in that range, and to top it all off, even if all that actually transpires we need another once in a lifetime trade like we did with Kawhi.

You can't even stay consistent in the same post lol. You start off by saying by complaining people are ragging on you for expecting a contender as a "falsehood", and then follow it up by complaining we aren't as good as the championship team.

The 2025/26 Raptors are not trying to be the 2018/19 Raptors so why act like that is the goal this year? Tis team is closer to the 2014-2016ish era of the team that was in the "playoff team building" stage. I actually find it difficult to say that the 2013/14 team would be better than our 2025/26 team from an asset standpoint.

That team had a core of a 27yo Lowry, 26yo Amir, 24yo Demar, 22yo Ross, 21yo JV, and 24yo PatPat. We really had no other significant assets of note.

This team is built around a 30yo Poeltl, 28yo Ingram, 26yo IQ, 25yo RJ, 25yo Ochai, 24yo Barnes, 22yo Dick, 21yo Walter, incoming #9 + 39, plus decent young guys like 23yo Shead, 24yo Mogob, and 24yo Battle.

Our current team is a bit older at the top with Jak, but also has significantly more young assets and IMO higher upside.

IDK why it is so hard for posters here to see that we are in a good place in terms of solid players right now, and a solid pipeline coming in.

[tsherkin]

Absolutely, but I can't comment on what may or may not happen in the future, so my analysis is based on the current status of the team. Realistically I don't think we can expect some massive overhaul over the course of the offseason, barring some crazy Giannis trade, so trades around the fringes might improve the team, but won't dramatically shift my outlook.

Sure, but even in that mode, we look like we'll be a fair sight better than we were in 2025. There are positives to examine based on health and BI alone, let alone anything else which might happen.

If anything major happens I will happily reassess, but for the current roster, I expect improvements from last year, but nothing that will give me some sort of hope for the future.

Hope for what? We project to immediately improve and win more games.

This team doesn't inspire "Just imagine the things we can achieve" but rather "Well at least it won't be as bad as last year", and while that may be enough for some, it's not moving the needle for me.

You don't generally go from 30 wins to a title, man. There has to be patience for some sort of liminal space.

[GLF]

I would love if someone could figure out how many games our starters of IQ, RJ, Dick, Scottie and Poeltl have played together in the last season and a half? If it’s more than 10-15 games I would be shocked. People don’t talk about that much when they talk about this team. Even without BI our best players have barely gotten a chance to play together. We have zero clue what we have right now. So speaking in such absolutes makes no sense to me.

And that same starting lineup with BI in place of Gradey is pretty talented so I don’t understand all the negativity. No one has said this is a championship team or anything like that. This team if they stay healthy being an outright playoff team or at worst a 7th or 8th seed is realistic. And no that’s not “treadmill” because this would be our first year making the playoffs in like 3 years with this group and the team is still young.

Also this team has flexibility and literally no one, not even the front office, has said this is the final version of this team and we are looking to rock with this version for the next 5 years. Changes will be made in the coming years to improve the team. Everyone needs to relax lol

[ash_k]

The longterm plan for Ingram I believe is to rebuild his value and move him down the line when things inevitably dont work out.

Trust me, there are other teams to support, to be a bit more joyful.

[M3tro]

Our season is hinging on Brandon Ingram and he's made of glass.

He hasn't played over 65 games in a season since his rookie year 8+ years ago. That shouldn't just be glossed over.

[Duffman100]

Our season is hinging on Brandon Ingram and he's made of glass.

He hasn't played over 65 games in a season since his rookie year 8+ years ago. That shouldn't just be glossed over.

How has that possibly been glossed over?

[GLF]

Don’t expect this team as is to win a championship or be a contender but are comparing them to championship or contending teams. I’m confused lol. We are the unrealistic delusional ones but tankers expect a team to go from bottom 7 to contender in one offseason lol. And being happy with seeing the team improve from what they’ve been the last 3 years to making the playoffs and being fun again (which is realistic) is beneath them bc they have such high standards and we’re okay with mediocrity LMAO. You can’t make this up.

[ontnut]

People understand there are cycles, and you would be hard-pressed to find anyone complaining that we are in a downtime, what people are complaining about is the listless nature of it, and constant attempts to recapture something from 5-10 years ago that just won't work.

I think at this point, raking the franchise over the coals isn't going to achieve much, yeah? We have some positive things happening right now, regardless of how the past few years have unfolded since the title. We should probably be focusing on that. We certainly aren't positioned to contend any time soon, but even drafting Flagg wasn't going to make that happen. So we should be looking forward to improved quality of games, and a little more excitement in our recreation other than hoping for lottery balls bouncing our way after a dreadful season.

It's not about raking them over the coals, it's about combating falsehoods like stating that everyone unhappy with the team is expecting something incredibly unrealistic like being a contender year in and year out.

There's no need for people to be making grand and stupid statements like that when it's pretty evident that people are unhappy with the direction and the mismanagement, not that we should be a more dominant dynasty than the MJ led bulls.

I've stated elsewhere that this should be a more watchable and ultimately more enjoyable season no doubt, but that's not what I was responding to.

Or it's because posters like you have an inability to differentiate between contenders every year, and having a basic plan. This team has been aimless for the last 5 years with no plan in mind.

Siakam/FVV? Let's build around them, except we won't actually build a complimentary roster. Didn't work out? Better let one of them walk in FA and then hold 2 expiring players much longer than we should, but not before we make a short sighted trade for a centre who exacerbates the teams problems.

This went south? Let's trade everyone away and start a rebuild, publicly state this is year one of a rebuild, then less than 6 months later make a win now re-tool trade for BI.

People understand there are cycles, and you would be hard-pressed to find anyone complaining that we are in a downtime, what people are complaining about is the listless nature of it, and constant attempts to recapture something from 5-10 years ago that just won't work.

This last sentence is where the crux of the problem is.
How do we know it "just won't work"?
I've got my doubts about roster construction like many others do, and the cap situation isn't great. But to say that it won't work when we haven't seen the full product on the court, and half of the roster are rookies/on rookie deals, nevermind the prospect of future moves, is the same kind of attitude that even I was guilty of during the Derozan and Bosh years.

IND made the ECF and appear on their way to the Finals. I honestly don't see a huge gulf between a healthy Raptors team and this Pacers team. There's an opportunity to make some deep playoff runs in the East in the coming year or two, so why not try for it? Our future assets are intact, and we have young players to fall back on if a full tear down is required in 2 years. Would I rather us have lucked into Wemby or Flagg? Maybe. SA is laughing right now but that was a mostly a product of LUCK, with some GM planning/skill sprinkled in. I wouldn't exactly trade our position for many other "tanking" teams other than them.


I was very down on the Raps last year, moreso than most. I took the under on the Vegas wins bets, so it's not like I'm some blind homer. But it feels like I'm now higher on the Raps for '25-26 than most. Will wait to see how the draft and FA pans out, but I'm already leaning to betting the over on the Vegas win totals, whatever they are.

I could have been slightly more diplomatic and say that it is extremely unlikely it will work, but when I'm seeing things that require like 5-10 really unlikely events to transpire for something to work out, that might as well be funcitonally impossible.

We're attempting the same thing as the first chip, with worse players, so you're already on the back foot. BI is worse than Siakam, Scottie is worse than Lowry and needs to take massive leaps, RJ and IQ are heavily flawed players, we have a bunch of late 1sts or 2nds that need to vastly exceed what is statistically likely for players in that range, and to top it all off, even if all that actually transpires we need another once in a lifetime trade like we did with Kawhi.

I don't know how you can look at the Pacers and not see much of a gap between our healthy team and theirs, especially when that health heavily relies on a guy who hasn't been healthy in 8 of his 9 years in the NBA. The team will absolutely be better next year, even if only Ingram continues to be a health issue, but I don't see anything about our current roster that screams potential. If the likelihood of this whole thing turning into a massive success is like 1% (my opinion obviously) then it might as well not exist to me.

My criticisms are not that the team won't be better, but rather that it won't make much of a difference in the grand scheme of things, I don't consider a 1st round playoff team in a horrifically weak conference to be something to celebrate.

To be fair, there's only an average of a 3% chance for any given team to win a championship any year. So 1% isn't THAT far off

[ontnut]

The longterm plan for Ingram I believe is to rebuild his value and move him down the line when things inevitably dont work out.

Trust me, there are other teams to support, to be a bit more joyful.

Not in this city, there ain't!

[ontnut]

I disagree. Hali's good, but he's not THAT good. He's a Siakam-tier guy at the guard spot. No true superstars on IND. They're doing it with depth and team play, with a healthy dose of injury luck to their opponents in back to back years.

Hali was a top-10 player this season in terms of impact. He is a much better player than Siakam ever was. Just because he isn't a scorer doesn't mean he isn't a superstar. He's a superstar in the mold of old school PGs like CP3, Nash, and Stockton. Steph has wired people's brains into thinking that only scoring PGs are effectuve in the modern NBA.

Haliburton had a +5.2 OEPM this season, putting him only behind Jokic, SGA, and Giannis (and tied with Steph).

Hali is like prime Lowry (minus the bulldog defence). But that still puts him a tier below, even at his best.
I think Hali is good, but he's a cog in the wheel, rather than the wheel itself. Yknow what I mean?

[ash_k]

Our season is hinging on Brandon Ingram and he's made of glass.

He hasn't played over 65 games in a season since his rookie year 8+ years ago. That shouldn't just be glossed over.

without all the injuries
IQ|RJ|Ochai(Gradey)|Scottie|Yak would have made the playoffs! Now just add a lengthy closer in there, a super skilled one..even if he plays 65 games as long as the others play their regular number of games, the playoffs are guaranteed

[Scase]

Absolutely, but I can't comment on what may or may not happen in the future, so my analysis is based on the current status of the team. Realistically I don't think we can expect some massive overhaul over the course of the offseason, barring some crazy Giannis trade, so trades around the fringes might improve the team, but won't dramatically shift my outlook.

Sure, but even in that mode, we look like we'll be a fair sight better than we were in 2025. There are positives to examine based on health and BI alone, let alone anything else which might happen.

If anything major happens I will happily reassess, but for the current roster, I expect improvements from last year, but nothing that will give me some sort of hope for the future.

Hope for what? We project to immediately improve and win more games.

This team doesn't inspire "Just imagine the things we can achieve" but rather "Well at least it won't be as bad as last year", and while that may be enough for some, it's not moving the needle for me.

You don't generally go from 30 wins to a title, man. There has to be patience for some sort of liminal space.

I'm not sure what is getting lost in translation here, I've been pretty clear that I expect the team to be better than last year, full stop. Same way I expected the Pistons to be better than their prior year, but them adding Harris isn't exactly something to look forward to down the line as a viable way to improve the team long term, same with BI.

And again, people need to stop with the hyperbole. I never said I expect 30 -> chip, that is literally the nonsense I was saying needs to stop. I don't see how this iteration of the roster has the growth potential to eventually become a contender. So I am basing my opinion on the current roster and my evaluation of their room for growth, that's all. No one is expecting the Spurs to go from 34 wins to a chip, but you can bet your ass they have a lot of expectations and justifiable hope for the long term future due to Wemby. We don't have any player on the roster to offer up even half the level of optimism he provides, hence the "Yeah, we'll be better, but to what end?" vibe that I have with this team.

[Jadoogar]

Our season is hinging on Brandon Ingram and he's made of glass.

He hasn't played over 65 games in a season since his rookie year 8+ years ago. That shouldn't just be glossed over.

without all the injuries
IQ|RJ|Ochai(Gradey)|Scottie|Yak would have made the playoffs! Now just add a lengthy closer in there, a super skilled one..even if he plays 65 games as long as the others play their regular number of games, the playoffs are guaranteed

lol i love how you guys say this every year.

Brandon Ingram teams haven't been great in the past.

[Scase]

To be fair, there's only an average of a 3% chance for any given team to win a championship any year. So 1% isn't THAT far off

You know damn well what I meant