Post-game: Ingram-Scottie-CMB-RJ lead Raps to victory!

[everdiso]

I will not let you slander my guy DeRozan like that. BI is slow like molasses on defense, turns the ball over way more than DeRozan ever did and shockingly is less effecient on offense too. I'm rooting for BI and he'll come in handy, but let's not pretend like Ingram is on another level than prime DeRozan lol

I literally have no idea what you mean, at least so far. Currently Ingram is shooting 64.1% TS. Derozan's best year in Toronto was 55.5%. His career high is 60.3% while this year it's 57.8%.

To be fair before this season yes Ingram wasn't above Derozan, still dude can ACTUALLY shoot the 3. That's like, a huge difference. Like hey he can play modern day off-ball to kind of thing.

I'm comparing Ingram's career to DeRozan's career. Ingram's advanced metrics on offense have not shown him to be a tier above DeRozan. They have differences in their style of play, but I don't think the comparison is way off base. The other guy made it seem like DeRozan is not worthy of being compared to Ingram lol.

Age 21-28:

Demar 35.7mpg, 21.1ppg, 27.8usg%, 53.5ts%, 16.8ast% --- Plyff: 37.5mpg, 21.9ppg, 30.1usg%, 49.7ts%, 17.5ast%
Ingram 33.8mpg, 22.3ppg, 27.8usg%, 57.5ts%, 22.9ast% --- Plyff: 38.1mpg, 21.9ppg, 26.6usg%, 54.2ts%, 22.9ast%


please don't brink back horrific memories of the DD nightmare.

[MoneyBall]

I literally have no idea what you mean, at least so far. Currently Ingram is shooting 64.1% TS. Derozan's best year in Toronto was 55.5%. His career high is 60.3% while this year it's 57.8%.

To be fair before this season yes Ingram wasn't above Derozan, still dude can ACTUALLY shoot the 3. That's like, a huge difference. Like hey he can play modern day off-ball to kind of thing.

I'm comparing Ingram's career to DeRozan's career. Ingram's advanced metrics on offense have not shown him to be a tier above DeRozan. They have differences in their style of play, but I don't think the comparison is way off base. The other guy made it seem like DeRozan is not worthy of being compared to Ingram lol.

Age 21-28:

Demar 35.7mpg, 21.1ppg, 27.8usg%, 53.5ts%, 16.8ast% --- Plyff: 37.5mpg, 21.9ppg, 30.1usg%, 49.7ts%, 17.5ast%
Ingram 33.8mpg, 22.3ppg, 27.8usg%, 57.5ts%, 22.9ast% --- Plyff: 38.1mpg, 21.9ppg, 26.6usg%, 54.2ts%, 22.9ast%


please don't brink back horrific memories of the DD nightmare.

Don't confuse scoring effeciency with offensive efficiency:

DeMar career ORtg of 113
Ingram career ORtg of 109

DeMar career OBPM of +1.6
Ingram career OBPM of +0.8

[YogurtProducer]

For all the Gradey slander, he's at +13.2 NRTG which is best on the team of the rotation players and 107.5 DRTG which is 2nd best behind Ochai. The team has been doing quite well when he's on the floor so far in this small sample size.

Dick/Ochai teams are only shooting 27%/26% respectively from 3. Compare that to Walter where they are shooting 42% or CMB at 42%.

On the other hand, we are shootinf 42%/39% from 3 when they are on the floor.

Probably some noise there as teams are not gonna shoot 1/4 from 3 vs Dick/Ochai all year lol

[YogurtProducer]

I'm comparing Ingram's career to DeRozan's career. Ingram's advanced metrics on offense have not shown him to be a tier above DeRozan. They have differences in their style of play, but I don't think the comparison is way off base. The other guy made it seem like DeRozan is not worthy of being compared to Ingram lol.

Age 21-28:

Demar 35.7mpg, 21.1ppg, 27.8usg%, 53.5ts%, 16.8ast% --- Plyff: 37.5mpg, 21.9ppg, 30.1usg%, 49.7ts%, 17.5ast%
Ingram 33.8mpg, 22.3ppg, 27.8usg%, 57.5ts%, 22.9ast% --- Plyff: 38.1mpg, 21.9ppg, 26.6usg%, 54.2ts%, 22.9ast%


please don't brink back horrific memories of the DD nightmare.

Don't confuse scoring effeciency with offensive efficiency:

DeMar career ORtg of 113
Ingram career ORtg of 109

DeMar career OBPM of +1.6
Ingram career OBPM of +0.8

Ortg is kind of meaningless, and using career figures to compare players is also just weird when one is 35 and the other is 28 or whatever they are.

They could not be more similar of players.

[MoneyBall]

Age 21-28:

Demar 35.7mpg, 21.1ppg, 27.8usg%, 53.5ts%, 16.8ast% --- Plyff: 37.5mpg, 21.9ppg, 30.1usg%, 49.7ts%, 17.5ast%
Ingram 33.8mpg, 22.3ppg, 27.8usg%, 57.5ts%, 22.9ast% --- Plyff: 38.1mpg, 21.9ppg, 26.6usg%, 54.2ts%, 22.9ast%


please don't brink back horrific memories of the DD nightmare.

Don't confuse scoring effeciency with offensive efficiency:

DeMar career ORtg of 113
Ingram career ORtg of 109

DeMar career OBPM of +1.6
Ingram career OBPM of +0.8

Ortg is kind of meaningless, and using career figures to compare players is also just weird when one is 35 and the other is 28 or whatever they are.

They could not be more similar of players.

I agree there's an inherent challenge in comparing two players of very different ages. Posting an ORtg of 114 in 2017 (DRozan) is FAR more impressive than posting an ORtg of 114 in 2025 (Ingram). League wide effeciency has gone up drastically over the years.

You dismissing ORtg as completely meaningless is itself meaningless.

[everdiso]

I'm comparing Ingram's career to DeRozan's career. Ingram's advanced metrics on offense have not shown him to be a tier above DeRozan. They have differences in their style of play, but I don't think the comparison is way off base. The other guy made it seem like DeRozan is not worthy of being compared to Ingram lol.

Age 21-28:

Demar 35.7mpg, 21.1ppg, 27.8usg%, 53.5ts%, 16.8ast% --- Plyff: 37.5mpg, 21.9ppg, 30.1usg%, 49.7ts%, 17.5ast%
Ingram 33.8mpg, 22.3ppg, 27.8usg%, 57.5ts%, 22.9ast% --- Plyff: 38.1mpg, 21.9ppg, 26.6usg%, 54.2ts%, 22.9ast%


please don't brink back horrific memories of the DD nightmare.

Don't confuse scoring effeciency with offensive efficiency:

DeMar career ORtg of 113
Ingram career ORtg of 109

DeMar career OBPM of +1.6
Ingram career OBPM of +0.8

please stop bringing back the nightmares. there is never a good reason to mention the name of Demar Derozan ever again.

[MoneyBall]

Age 21-28:

Demar 35.7mpg, 21.1ppg, 27.8usg%, 53.5ts%, 16.8ast% --- Plyff: 37.5mpg, 21.9ppg, 30.1usg%, 49.7ts%, 17.5ast%
Ingram 33.8mpg, 22.3ppg, 27.8usg%, 57.5ts%, 22.9ast% --- Plyff: 38.1mpg, 21.9ppg, 26.6usg%, 54.2ts%, 22.9ast%


please don't brink back horrific memories of the DD nightmare.

Don't confuse scoring effeciency with offensive efficiency:

DeMar career ORtg of 113
Ingram career ORtg of 109

DeMar career OBPM of +1.6
Ingram career OBPM of +0.8

please stop bringing back the nightmares. there is never a good reason to mention the name of Demar Derozan ever again.

Lol alright man, I'll stop for your sake.

I actually love DeRozan. A true professional who kept improving his game year after year despite his limitions. He spearheaded the culture change that eventually put us in a position to win a Championship. He chose Toronto and wanted to spend his career here. I have enormous respect for him as a professional athlete.

[Grew]

Age 21-28:

Demar 35.7mpg, 21.1ppg, 27.8usg%, 53.5ts%, 16.8ast% --- Plyff: 37.5mpg, 21.9ppg, 30.1usg%, 49.7ts%, 17.5ast%
Ingram 33.8mpg, 22.3ppg, 27.8usg%, 57.5ts%, 22.9ast% --- Plyff: 38.1mpg, 21.9ppg, 26.6usg%, 54.2ts%, 22.9ast%


please don't brink back horrific memories of the DD nightmare.

Don't confuse scoring effeciency with offensive efficiency:

DeMar career ORtg of 113
Ingram career ORtg of 109

DeMar career OBPM of +1.6
Ingram career OBPM of +0.8

please stop bringing back the nightmares. there is never a good reason to mention the name of Demar Derozan ever again.

Honestly another example of stat comparisons being useless without context. You can just look at Ingram and tell he's the more talented basketball player on both ends of the court. Demar figured a system of mid range/foul baiting that worked for him in the regular season, when the whistle tightened up his system broke down.

Demar was a the definition of a polished turd, with as much respect as possible. He mirrored his offensive game after Jordan/Kobe and he put in that type of work. He just didn't have anywhere near the skill or functional athleticism.

BI is bigger, longer, smoother, and just ultimately more skilled. He gets deeper in the paint in a more controlled way on his mid range shots than Demar could ever hope to do. He gets to more efficient spots easier, and then he shoots over the top of people. The way people foul BI is more organic, he's not a free throw merchant that needs 10 attempts a game to keep his numbers up. People try and contest him, and foul him because they can't actually contest that shot, he's not trying to trick people up into the air so he can jump/lean into them like Demar relied upon.

BI has already showcased that he can do things with his length on D that Demar could never hope to do. Even if they are both slow laterally, BI is more versatile in who he can guard on the court and he's just more effective than Demar due to his length. In his first few games he already had gotten a from behind steal, and a help side block in a way I never saw Demar do his entire career here.

Demar was drafted here and given every opportunity to hone his craft while in a stable environment. He had continuity year in and year out with his role on the roster. BI was drafted to a laker team moving off Kobe and not yet locked into Lebron, the total opposite of a stable environment. BI goes and wins most improved player, ever since then he has had injury problems, his running mate Zion had injury problems, and the pelicans as a whole never really were a stable environment. BI has never gotten the opportunity to experience a "prime" in the way that Demar did here.

The only thing Demar has on BI as a basketball player is possibly his mindset. The delusion that he was in some way shape or form a Kobe/Jordan type. He had a shoot for the moon land amongst the stars mentality.

Due to all this context, comparing their stats is basically irrelevant. Trying to say who is a better player is basically irrelevant. Demar has had the better career. BI is the more talented basketball player, with a much higher ceiling as a "top option" guy. All you have to do is watch them with an open mind to come to that conclusion. This is BI's opportunity to close that career gap and finally have a true "prime", he just needs to stay healthy.

[TheGeneral99]

People need to be more nuanced when discussing Demar.

Even in his peak years in Toronto he was not near the efficient player and facilitator he became on the Spurs and Bulls. In his peak Raptor years he was not a very efficient player, but he improved.

For all his defensive faults, Demar on the Bulls, in particular, was lethal offensively - in 2022 he averaged 28ppg, 4rpg and 5apg on 50%fg and 35%3fg while getting to the line 8 times a game and shooting 85%ft...that's fantastic.

[tsherkin]

People need to be more nuanced when discussing Demar.

Even in his peak years in Toronto he was not near the efficient player and facilitator he became on the Spurs and Bulls. In his peak Raptor years he was not a very efficient player, but he improved.

For all his defensive faults, Demar on the Bulls, in particular, was lethal offensively - in 2022 he averaged 28ppg, 4rpg and 5apg on 50%fg and 35%3fg while getting to the line 8 times a game and shooting 85%ft...that's fantastic.

In the RS, sure. He was F-OFF useless in the playoffs pretty much every time he made it there, in general because he struggled against good defenses. Too easy to force him into bombing long twos, and he was never actually very good at getting to the rim to begin with and was worse in the playoffs.

He definitely figured out how to abuse poor defenses, though. And on a night when his shot was falling, he was dangerous. But no, overall, he was a mirage. He was absolute crap when it counted. And a disaster on defense who eventually began to turn himself into less of a legendary waste of skin on that end.

[PushDaRock]

People need to be more nuanced when discussing Demar.

Even in his peak years in Toronto he was not near the efficient player and facilitator he became on the Spurs and Bulls. In his peak Raptor years he was not a very efficient player, but he improved.

For all his defensive faults, Demar on the Bulls, in particular, was lethal offensively - in 2022 he averaged 28ppg, 4rpg and 5apg on 50%fg and 35%3fg while getting to the line 8 times a game and shooting 85%ft...that's fantastic.

In the RS, sure. He was F-OFF useless in the playoffs pretty much every time he made it there, in general because he struggled against good defenses. Too easy to force him into bombing long twos, and he was never actually very good at getting to the rim to begin with and was worse in the playoffs.

He definitely figured out how to abuse poor defenses, though. And on a night when his shot was falling, he was dangerous. But no, overall, he was a mirage. He was absolute crap when it counted. And a disaster on defense who eventually began to turn himself into less of a legendary waste of skin on that end.

It's hard to think of a worse playoff performer. Just absolute insanity that he was a 30% USG guy on those Raptor teams. Let's not even get into the on court and on/off metrics.

[TheGeneral99]

People need to be more nuanced when discussing Demar.

Even in his peak years in Toronto he was not near the efficient player and facilitator he became on the Spurs and Bulls. In his peak Raptor years he was not a very efficient player, but he improved.

For all his defensive faults, Demar on the Bulls, in particular, was lethal offensively - in 2022 he averaged 28ppg, 4rpg and 5apg on 50%fg and 35%3fg while getting to the line 8 times a game and shooting 85%ft...that's fantastic.

In the RS, sure. He was F-OFF useless in the playoffs pretty much every time he made it there, in general because he struggled against good defenses. Too easy to force him into bombing long twos, and he was never actually very good at getting to the rim to begin with and was worse in the playoffs.

He definitely figured out how to abuse poor defenses, though. And on a night when his shot was falling, he was dangerous. But no, overall, he was a mirage. He was absolute crap when it counted. And a disaster on defense who eventually began to turn himself into less of a legendary waste of skin on that end.

I agree in the playoffs, I was talking purely in the regular season.

And my point was that his efficiency increased significantly after leaving our team.

[YogurtProducer]

Don't confuse scoring effeciency with offensive efficiency:

DeMar career ORtg of 113
Ingram career ORtg of 109

DeMar career OBPM of +1.6
Ingram career OBPM of +0.8

Ortg is kind of meaningless, and using career figures to compare players is also just weird when one is 35 and the other is 28 or whatever they are.

They could not be more similar of players.

I agree there's an inherent challenge in comparing two players of very different ages. Posting an ORtg of 114 in 2017 (DRozan) is FAR more impressive than posting an ORtg of 114 in 2025 (Ingram). League wide effeciency has gone up drastically over the years.

You dismissing ORtg as completely meaningless is itself meaningless.

It is meaningless. That’s a team stat that doesn’t provide anything on the individual player.

All it means is Demar played on a stronger team.

[everdiso]

Demar's great sin is that he was far too limited to ever become a true #1 option - and we saw that come playoffs when teams just dared him to shoot and he flopped in epic fashion every time.

But even worse, he never had the skillset to be a complementary #2 or #3 option either - again mostly because he was useless as an outside shooter.

He was a ball-dominant scorer who wasn't good enough to score when defenses actually gameplanned around stopping him. An absolute team killer.

[MoneyBall]

Ortg is kind of meaningless, and using career figures to compare players is also just weird when one is 35 and the other is 28 or whatever they are.

They could not be more similar of players.

I agree there's an inherent challenge in comparing two players of very different ages. Posting an ORtg of 114 in 2017 (DRozan) is FAR more impressive than posting an ORtg of 114 in 2025 (Ingram). League wide effeciency has gone up drastically over the years.

You dismissing ORtg as completely meaningless is itself meaningless.

It is meaningless. That’s a team stat that doesn’t provide anything on the individual player.

All it means is Demar played on a stronger team.

I have no doubt you believe this. You've shown yourself inept when it comes to these kinds of discussions on advanced metrics. Despite being taught otherwise, you still falsely believe BPM is a raw stat rather than and advanced metric. You're a true time thief.

[tsherkin]

It's hard to think of a worse playoff performer. Just absolute insanity that he was a 30% USG guy on those Raptor teams. Let's not even get into the on court and on/off metrics.

Yeah, it was a major thing when we replaced him with someone who was competent against good defenses.

I agree in the playoffs, I was talking purely in the regular season.
And my point was that his efficiency increased significantly after leaving our team.

Yes, strictly speaking of his seasonal averages, he was more efficient after he left us, though his issues remained the same. His time in Sacramento, however, has been basically the same.

2017 was still actually his best individual offensive season, though. And it wasn't really until his second season with the Spurs and shifting from the 2 to the 3 when he started to get going. And then it immediately tapered off. Which, you'll notice, was basically COVID seasons, playing a little as a small-ball 4, and then normalizing even as spacing improved and such.

Demar was a slow-burn kinda guy. He did tiny bits of development year after year, which was impressive in its way, but he couldn't really put it together into a meaningful peak, nor a way to attack strong defenses.

[mihaic]

Scottie in the postgame when asked about his 3 point shooting:

"If they play off me... give me an easy one. I need that"

"When an easy one goes in another one is going up right away"



Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Someone should tell him that applies only if the 'another one' is an easy one.

[TheGeneral99]

It's hard to think of a worse playoff performer. Just absolute insanity that he was a 30% USG guy on those Raptor teams. Let's not even get into the on court and on/off metrics.

Yeah, it was a major thing when we replaced him with someone who was competent against good defenses.

I agree in the playoffs, I was talking purely in the regular season.
And my point was that his efficiency increased significantly after leaving our team.

Yes, strictly speaking of his seasonal averages, he was more efficient after he left us, though his issues remained the same. His time in Sacramento, however, has been basically the same.

2017 was still actually his best individual offensive season, though. And it wasn't really until his second season with the Spurs and shifting from the 2 to the 3 when he started to get going. And then it immediately tapered off. Which, you'll notice, was basically COVID seasons, playing a little as a small-ball 4, and then normalizing even as spacing improved and such.

Demar was a slow-burn kinda guy. He did tiny bits of development year after year, which was impressive in its way, but he couldn't really put it together into a meaningful peak, nor a way to attack strong defenses.

I'm not sure how 2017 was better than his 2022 season.

He had a TS of 55.2% in 2017 compared to a really nice TS of 59% in 2022, while his ability to manage and facilitate an offense was vastly improved.

Also I give him some leeway in Sacramento considering the fact that he was 35 years old last year and it's impressive that he can still put up 20ppg on solid efficiency at that age.

Again, I agree with all your points on his defensive deficiencies and playoff struggles, but Derozan's ability to continue improving into his early 30s was incredibly impressive. The fact that this season at age 36 he's still averaging 21ppg on 51%fg is very impressive and a testament to his high skill level.

[tsherkin]

I'm not sure how 2017 was better than his 2022 season.

He had a TS of 55.2% in 2017 compared to a really nice TS of 59% in 2022, while his ability to manage and facilitate an offense was vastly improved.

Yes, he's definitely had better seasons from a scoring efficiency standpoint, but that isn't the entirety of offense. You can argue between 2022 and 2017, for sure, but those are the two seasons where his impact markers were the best, varying slightly depending on at which you look.

Also I give him some leeway in Sacramento considering the fact that he was 35 years old last year and it's impressive that he can still put up 20ppg on solid efficiency at that age.

It isn't really solid efficiency, and I don't really care that he's shooting too much. He's ill-suited to the role, basically as he has been throughout his career. It is, as with most things Sacramento does, fairly stupid that they acquired him in the first place, and doubly so for putting him in a volume role. You give a lot of players 17 FGA/g, they're going to put up 20+ ppg.

Again, I agree with all your points on his defensive deficiencies and playoff struggles, but Derozan's ability to continue improving into his early 30s was incredibly impressive.

Work ethic was never an issue with him, and his micro improvements season after season were a surprise, very much a contravention of how player development typically works. It wasn't enough for him to be worthwhile to us in the role we tried to arrange for him, but it was still a pleasant surprise.

The fact that this season at age 36 he's still averaging 21ppg on 51%fg is very impressive and a testament to his high skill level.

He's a bit below league-average efficiency, with more spacing and higher tempo than earlier periods of his career. It isn't nearly as impressive as it might seem (relative to NBA standards). He's been a strong FT shooter for a long time and is still excellent at drawing fouls, and he's an excellent shooter on long twos. He's also shooting an absolutely bonkers and entirely unsustainable percentage on his short game which will normalize soon enough.

Ultimately, his game hasn't ever really relied too much on speed, so he's aged well. But he's still not a good option as a scorer of emphasis, raw volume notwithstanding.

[YogurtProducer]

I agree there's an inherent challenge in comparing two players of very different ages. Posting an ORtg of 114 in 2017 (DRozan) is FAR more impressive than posting an ORtg of 114 in 2025 (Ingram). League wide effeciency has gone up drastically over the years.

You dismissing ORtg as completely meaningless is itself meaningless.

It is meaningless. That’s a team stat that doesn’t provide anything on the individual player.

All it means is Demar played on a stronger team.

I have no doubt you believe this. You've shown yourself inept when it comes to these kinds of discussions on advanced metrics. Despite being taught otherwise, you still falsely believe BPM is a raw stat rather than and advanced metric. You're a true time thief.

ORTG is as meaningless as they come. Might as well bring up how many games the Pelicans and Raptors won in 2017.