PG: Raptors gut out a resilient win

[YogurtProducer]

Ring Chasing vs Padding his Scoring Totals, I don't know that either option would be looked at too fondly.

I don't think if Demar signed a $15M deal with someone to come of the bench would be looked at poorly.

Everyone knows he isn't a star. Does anyone look down at any vet who eventually takes a lesser role?

IMO - his legacy would have been improved had he won a ring as a key rotational piece. Look at Iggy. Sure he still started, but he took a massive reduced role to win. And his legacy is way better now than had he just stayed somewhere else and scored 17ppg for the rest of his career on bad teams

I think you guys overestimate how much interest contenders have for Demar.

I don’t think a single one would sign him for 15M a year lol.

I'm sure almost every NBA team would love to have Demar at the MLE.

Hate him or not, for the last 5 years he has been a 60TS% 22-24ppg guy. Any NBA team would kill for that off their bench. Hell - I would trade Dick/Ochai/Temple in heartbeat to get Demar as a 6th man gunner if he was making MLE money.

[Duffman100]

Except he likely had it when we signed the deal. .

So you think we didnt do a physical?

If they did, they didnt check his back. or they signed him anyway. When did he hurt himself? was it one time thing or wear and tear over years. Sounds like wear and tear, but Im all ears for anyone who knows when he got hurt.

So you admit you don't know when he got hurt, but you're postive they didn't do their due diligence on a physical?

How do you reconcile that?

[YogurtProducer]

Except he likely had it when we signed the deal. .

So you think we didnt do a physical?

If they did, they didnt check his back. or they signed him anyway. When did he hurt himself? was it one time thing or wear and tear over years. Sounds like wear and tear, but Im all ears for anyone who knows when he got hurt.

Seems reasonable. Billion dollar franchise in a league that does physicals for every single signing randomly just didnt do one for Poeltl, or if they did they just... didn't check his back.

Ever hurt your back? You can do it stretching in bed the wrong way. There is no guarantees he hurt it on the court. Maybe it tweaked in practice. WHO KNOWS.

[HumbleRen]

I don't think if Demar signed a $15M deal with someone to come of the bench would be looked at poorly.

Everyone knows he isn't a star. Does anyone look down at any vet who eventually takes a lesser role?

IMO - his legacy would have been improved had he won a ring as a key rotational piece. Look at Iggy. Sure he still started, but he took a massive reduced role to win. And his legacy is way better now than had he just stayed somewhere else and scored 17ppg for the rest of his career on bad teams

I think you guys overestimate how much interest contenders have for Demar.

I don’t think a single one would sign him for 15M a year lol.

I'm sure almost every NBA team would love to have Demar at the MLE.

Hate him or not, for the last 5 years he has been a 60TS% 22-24ppg guy. Any NBA team would kill for that off their bench. Hell - I would trade Dick/Ochai/Temple in heartbeat to get Demar as a 6th man gunner if he was making MLE money.

I don’t think any contender would want him at 15M.

Peyton Watson as a 6th man is more valuable than Demar as a 6th man. Any of OKC’s rotation players is more valuable than Demar as a 6th man. I can go on.

He doesn’t space the floor, play with pace and is a shiv on defence. It would be malpractice for any team that has aspirations of making the finals to sign him for 15M a year lol.

[Duffman100]

I think you guys overestimate how much interest contenders have for Demar.

I don’t think a single one would sign him for 15M a year lol.

I'm sure almost every NBA team would love to have Demar at the MLE.

Hate him or not, for the last 5 years he has been a 60TS% 22-24ppg guy. Any NBA team would kill for that off their bench. Hell - I would trade Dick/Ochai/Temple in heartbeat to get Demar as a 6th man gunner if he was making MLE money.

I don’t think any contender would want him at 15M.

Peyton Watson as a 6th man is more valuable than Demar as a 6th man. Any of OKC’s rotation players is more valuable than Demar as a 6th man. I can go on.

He doesn’t space the floor, play with pace and is a shiv on defence. It would be malpractice for any team that has aspirations of making the finals to sign him for 15M a year lol.

sieve not shiv.

shiv on defense would be... interesting.

[HumbleRen]

I'm sure almost every NBA team would love to have Demar at the MLE.

Hate him or not, for the last 5 years he has been a 60TS% 22-24ppg guy. Any NBA team would kill for that off their bench. Hell - I would trade Dick/Ochai/Temple in heartbeat to get Demar as a 6th man gunner if he was making MLE money.

I don’t think any contender would want him at 15M.

Peyton Watson as a 6th man is more valuable than Demar as a 6th man. Any of OKC’s rotation players is more valuable than Demar as a 6th man. I can go on.

He doesn’t space the floor, play with pace and is a shiv on defence. It would be malpractice for any team that has aspirations of making the finals to sign him for 15M a year lol.

sieve not shiv.

shiv on defense would be... interesting.

He’s cutting up your defensive identity, ima still use shiv.

[deck]

There are degrees of objectivity- like I’m optimistic about what I see to be optimistic about. I’m pessimistic about the things I think are not good. I don’t enjoy reading glazing pieces unless I actually believe them. And I don’t believe all raps good news and disbelieve bad news - I’m bait saying others are not objective - but it’ll say I don’t get how you don’t objectively see the same issues. The self inflicted wounds putting a ceiling on where this group can go. I’d love to talk more about what a revelation Shead has been as a 45th pick - but the lack of centre depth, glut of SG’s seems more pressing. I dont understand the downplaying of importance of a pg to the offense - nor do I understand letting teams with big frontcourts demolish us.

I think you are creating a strawman here. I don't see anyone going out of their way to say the Poeltl contract is good, I think the consensus is we overpaid, especially given his current health issues. I also think the board has beaten to death the fact that we have been missing centre depth for many seasons. The suggestion that you have some objective insight that others are missing is not accurate in my opinion.

People simply disagree with your supposition from the prior thread that because we gave Poeltl a questionable contract, that Bobby should not continue to be our GM.

Very often after a bad game raps media will preach patience, and then after one good one, be like now apologize - like that level of if it’s good buy in, and if it’s bad deflect is wasted time, imo. Find the truth, Ruth. Or try to.

Sure, but doesn't the exact same thing happen in the opposite direction, at least within the board? After one bad game, apologize to TWO for being right all along, and after a win, rationalization of why the win didn't matter because so and so was injured.

To my simple thinking, it comes down to people being bought into a narrative, and they just naturally voice their opinions when those narratives are validated. But as far as I can tell, that happens in both directions.

My personal narrative is that we are a playoff team for the first time in a half decade and that is OK for now. 2019 taught me the fallacy of projecting the ceiling of a team, and to some extent players, into the future. If someone had told me in 2015 the roster was championship bound in the next 4 years and Lowry was destined to be the GROAT, I likely would have laughed in their face.

I can be optimistic about the direction of the team on a whole, while still acknowledging that we have cap challenges going forward and that our GM owns the responsibility for those challenges.

[theonlyeastcoastrapsfan]

So you think we didnt do a physical?

If they did, they didnt check his back. or they signed him anyway. When did he hurt himself? was it one time thing or wear and tear over years. Sounds like wear and tear, but Im all ears for anyone who knows when he got hurt.

So you admit you don't know when he got hurt, but you're postive they didn't do their due diligence on a physical?

How do you reconcile that?

Fair question, here's the answer, when did he get hurt and was it an event that happened or an wear and tear thing. I've never heard of the or any specific event where it occurred, so I think it's wear and tear. did they do enough due diligence, did they miss it? Seems to me it would always be so much smarter to wait, in the event something did happen. Right, but they didnt. Even then it would been a risk that just didnt pay off. But he didn't even get a training camp in, so when did he get hurt if he wasnt that way when they extended him. There are two things - if he wasn't hurt when they singed him when did it happen and how? and if it did happen after this was when your decision to extend early blows up in your face. Either way - I don't see the angle that builds trust in the decision making.

I also think they signed an injured Demarre Carroll to a big deal once too.

I never said I was positive though, I've said I questions and Im not sold on their decision making.

[TorontoBarneys]

Mamu was an insane FA get. Props to Bobby.

[YogurtProducer]

I think you guys overestimate how much interest contenders have for Demar.

I don’t think a single one would sign him for 15M a year lol.

I'm sure almost every NBA team would love to have Demar at the MLE.

Hate him or not, for the last 5 years he has been a 60TS% 22-24ppg guy. Any NBA team would kill for that off their bench. Hell - I would trade Dick/Ochai/Temple in heartbeat to get Demar as a 6th man gunner if he was making MLE money.

I don’t think any contender would want him at 15M.

Peyton Watson as a 6th man is more valuable than Demar as a 6th man. Any of OKC’s rotation players is more valuable than Demar as a 6th man. I can go on.

He doesn’t space the floor, play with pace and is a shiv on defence. It would be malpractice for any team that has aspirations of making the finals to sign him for 15M a year lol.

Watson has started every game since November. OKC is also a stacked AF team and is a complete outlier.

I'm sure SA would take Demar over Olynyk at the same cost. or HOU instead of Finney Smith. or the Lakers as already mentioned. or us. or CLE instead of Lonzo.

Pretty wild to suggest that over the last half decade that contenders wouldn't want an efficient, 20ppg guy, to come off their bench, for the MLE.

[PushDaRock]

I'm sure almost every NBA team would love to have Demar at the MLE.

Hate him or not, for the last 5 years he has been a 60TS% 22-24ppg guy. Any NBA team would kill for that off their bench. Hell - I would trade Dick/Ochai/Temple in heartbeat to get Demar as a 6th man gunner if he was making MLE money.

I don’t think any contender would want him at 15M.

Peyton Watson as a 6th man is more valuable than Demar as a 6th man. Any of OKC’s rotation players is more valuable than Demar as a 6th man. I can go on.

He doesn’t space the floor, play with pace and is a shiv on defence. It would be malpractice for any team that has aspirations of making the finals to sign him for 15M a year lol.

Watson has started every game since November. OKC is also a stacked AF team and is a complete outlier.

I'm sure SA would take Demar over Olynyk at the same cost. or HOU instead of Finney Smith. or the Lakers as already mentioned. or us. or CLE instead of Lonzo.

Pretty wild to suggest that over the last half decade that contenders wouldn't want an efficient, 20ppg guy, to come off their bench, for the MLE.

How much is he scoring on those teams in a bench role is the question? Historically, the transition from high USG #1 option to bench player hasn't gone well for these player types that can't defend, shoot or play off the ball.

[PushDaRock]

If they did, they didnt check his back. or they signed him anyway. When did he hurt himself? was it one time thing or wear and tear over years. Sounds like wear and tear, but Im all ears for anyone who knows when he got hurt.

So you admit you don't know when he got hurt, but you're postive they didn't do their due diligence on a physical?

How do you reconcile that?

Fair question, here's the answer, when did he get hurt and was it an event that happened or an wear and tear thing. I've never heard of the or any specific event where it occurred, so I think it's wear and tear. did they do enough due diligence, did they miss it? Seems to me it would always be so much smarter to wait, in the event something did happen. Right, but they didnt. Even then it would been a risk that just didnt pay off. But he didn't even get a training camp in, so when did he get hurt if he wasnt that way when they extended him. There are two things - if he wasn't hurt when they singed him when did it happen and how? and if it did happen after this was when your decision to extend early blows up in your face. Either way - I don't see the angle that builds trust in the decision making.

I also think they signed an injured Demarre Carroll to a big deal once too.

I never said I was positive though, I've said I questions and Im not sold on their decision making.

That's certainly an interesting way to look at it that we ignore medicals and sign injured players anyways.

[Clutch0z24]

Front offices play a part in this....Kings have been one of the worst runned franchises with bad front offices for a really long time now.

If you have a bad front office the on court play will suffer as well....Masai was an elite GM for 10 years and once he won the title our Front office became really bad and lackadisical making multiple blunders which resulted in bad on court product....

Any team that has a good front office (Thunder/Spurs) are prolly going to be contenders for a long time.

OKC/Spurs actually weren’t contenders for a long time. Both were treadmill teams for nearly half a decade. Spurs got lucky three times in the lottery, and we all know what happened with OKC.

I’m glad Masai made the Kawhi trade. It got us a title even though we just had Kawhi for a year. I doubt we win the championship without Gasol, Lowry and Ibaka on the team. Once they all retired or left, it’s hard to replace that talent in a short period of time.

I don’t think the Spurs have won a playoff round in nearly a decade. OKC nearly went that long as well.

Spurs went 7 years without winning a playoff series.

Let’s check in on how the non-tanking, doing it the “right way” Raptors are doing: haven’t won a playoff series in 6 years and there’s no guarantee we win one this year.

Man am I glad we didn’t tank. We would have missed out on all that playoff success this decade.

Wait so are you trying to argue that front offices don't play a crucial part in team building and how successfull a team would be on the court because of front office actions? Because that is my stance on this and what my initial post was about....Front offices play apart of how good a team becomes if anyone is arguing with me then they are trying to say the opposite where the front office does not matter? Which to me is a weird stance to take....

And also are we trying to argue that the Spurs/OKC have bad front offices or something? Just go look at the draft capital their own and other teams picks these teams got over the years....Yes luck plays a factor but these front offices also put themselves in position to get lucky....Thats all you can do as a front office is put yourself in that position to get lucky via the trade market or the draft lottery...

We can argue back and forth on which front offices have had the most success in the NBA....But Spurs/OKC historically are ranked pretty high in that department....Raptors once were high on the list of elite front offices but have been one of the worst ones in the last 5 years which showed in the on court production....

Every team does have bad stretches and good stretches but a good front office usually finds a way out of being a bottom dwellerS or team mid for long...

Thunder
Celtics
Spurs

Are good runned teams....Raptors were once up there and have a chance to get back to it....We will see what Bobby does the next few years but no one can argue we have not been poorly runned the last 5 or so years here...

[YogurtProducer]

If they did, they didnt check his back. or they signed him anyway. When did he hurt himself? was it one time thing or wear and tear over years. Sounds like wear and tear, but Im all ears for anyone who knows when he got hurt.

So you admit you don't know when he got hurt, but you're postive they didn't do their due diligence on a physical?

How do you reconcile that?

Fair question, here's the answer, when did he get hurt and was it an event that happened or an wear and tear thing. I've never heard of the or any specific event where it occurred, so I think it's wear and tear. did they do enough due diligence, did they miss it? Seems to me it would always be so much smarter to wait, in the event something did happen. Right, but they didnt. Even then it would been a risk that just didnt pay off. But he didn't even get a training camp in, so when did he get hurt if he wasnt that way when they extended him. There are two things - if he wasn't hurt when they singed him when did it happen and how? and if it did happen after this was when your decision to extend early blows up in your face. Either way - I don't see the angle that builds trust in the decision making.

I also think they signed an injured Demarre Carroll to a big deal once too.

I mean he signed his deal in July, and played internationally in August.

Like I said, a back injury could come from anywhere. He played opening night, and a back to back in game 3 and 4. So for all we know it happened in game 1-4 somewhere.

You've obviously never tweaked your back. 100% the type of injury you can tweak during a game and it feels "meh", and then the next morning your back is just screwed.

[YogurtProducer]

I don’t think any contender would want him at 15M.

Peyton Watson as a 6th man is more valuable than Demar as a 6th man. Any of OKC’s rotation players is more valuable than Demar as a 6th man. I can go on.

He doesn’t space the floor, play with pace and is a shiv on defence. It would be malpractice for any team that has aspirations of making the finals to sign him for 15M a year lol.

Watson has started every game since November. OKC is also a stacked AF team and is a complete outlier.

I'm sure SA would take Demar over Olynyk at the same cost. or HOU instead of Finney Smith. or the Lakers as already mentioned. or us. or CLE instead of Lonzo.

Pretty wild to suggest that over the last half decade that contenders wouldn't want an efficient, 20ppg guy, to come off their bench, for the MLE.

How much is he scoring on those teams in a bench role is the question? Historically, the transition from high USG #1 option to bench player hasn't gone well for these player types that can't defend, shoot or play off the ball.

Who knows. Probably the same as any other microwave sixth man. 10-12ppg in 20mpg doesn't seem that crazy.

[YogurtProducer]

OKC/Spurs actually weren’t contenders for a long time. Both were treadmill teams for nearly half a decade. Spurs got lucky three times in the lottery, and we all know what happened with OKC.

I’m glad Masai made the Kawhi trade. It got us a title even though we just had Kawhi for a year. I doubt we win the championship without Gasol, Lowry and Ibaka on the team. Once they all retired or left, it’s hard to replace that talent in a short period of time.

I don’t think the Spurs have won a playoff round in nearly a decade. OKC nearly went that long as well.

Spurs went 7 years without winning a playoff series.

Let’s check in on how the non-tanking, doing it the “right way” Raptors are doing: haven’t won a playoff series in 6 years and there’s no guarantee we win one this year.

Man am I glad we didn’t tank. We would have missed out on all that playoff success this decade.

Wait so are you trying to argue that front offices don't play a crucial part in team building and how successfull a team would be on the court because of front office actions? Because that is my stance on this and what my initial post was about....Front offices play apart of how good a team becomes if anyone is arguing with me then they are trying to say the opposite where the front office does not matter? Which to me is a weird stance to take....

And also are we trying to argue that the Spurs/OKC have bad front offices or something? Just go look at the draft capital their own and other teams picks these teams got over the years....Yes luck plays a factor but these front offices also put themselves in position to get lucky....Thats all you can do as a front office is put yourself in that position to get lucky via the trade market or the draft lottery...

We can argue back and forth on which front offices have had the most success in the NBA....But Spurs/OKC historically are ranked pretty high in that department....Raptors once were high on the list of elite front offices but have been one of the worst ones in the last 5 years which showed in the on court production....

Every team does have bad stretches and good stretches but a good front office usually finds a way out of being a bottom dweller for long...

Thunder
Celtics
Spurs

Are good runned teams....Raptors were once up there and have a chance to get back to it....We will see what Bobby does the next few years but no one can argue we have not been poorly runned the last 5 or so years here...

Lotta words that can be summed up as "there is no one way to teambuild"

Because any pro-tanking argument you can't use OKC or BOS without some SERIOUS context as to why that is not reasonable for the average team. Not everyone gets a headstart on their tank by either A) acquiring a 20 year old future MVP or B) outsourcing the tanking to another franchise.

Had SA not won the Wemby lottery they're probably still tanking, and whatever other lucky team would be a top 5 franchise right now. Had OKC or BOS not lucked into two of the most lopsides trades of all time where would they be?

Team building is not black and white. There is so many shades of grey you ignore.

[tsherkin]

Ring Chasing vs Padding his Scoring Totals, I don't know that either option would be looked at too fondly.

I dunno, at this stage of his career? I don't think anyone would have looked askance at Demar for chasing a winning situation at all. This is the time of a player's career where that becomes acceptable.

[PushDaRock]

Watson has started every game since November. OKC is also a stacked AF team and is a complete outlier.

I'm sure SA would take Demar over Olynyk at the same cost. or HOU instead of Finney Smith. or the Lakers as already mentioned. or us. or CLE instead of Lonzo.

Pretty wild to suggest that over the last half decade that contenders wouldn't want an efficient, 20ppg guy, to come off their bench, for the MLE.

How much is he scoring on those teams in a bench role is the question? Historically, the transition from high USG #1 option to bench player hasn't gone well for these player types that can't defend, shoot or play off the ball.

Who knows. Probably the same as any other microwave sixth man. 10-12ppg in 20mpg doesn't seem that crazy.

Probably not all that useful for most teams to have that at 15m a year.

[theonlyeastcoastrapsfan]

So you admit you don't know when he got hurt, but you're postive they didn't do their due diligence on a physical?

How do you reconcile that?

Fair question, here's the answer, when did he get hurt and was it an event that happened or an wear and tear thing. I've never heard of the or any specific event where it occurred, so I think it's wear and tear. did they do enough due diligence, did they miss it? Seems to me it would always be so much smarter to wait, in the event something did happen. Right, but they didnt. Even then it would been a risk that just didnt pay off. But he didn't even get a training camp in, so when did he get hurt if he wasnt that way when they extended him. There are two things - if he wasn't hurt when they singed him when did it happen and how? and if it did happen after this was when your decision to extend early blows up in your face. Either way - I don't see the angle that builds trust in the decision making.

I also think they signed an injured Demarre Carroll to a big deal once too.

I never said I was positive though, I've said I questions and Im not sold on their decision making.

That's certainly an interesting way to look at it that we ignore medicals and sign injured players anyways.

I wasn't wrong about Carroll, if you go back that far. I thought that because he went out with knee scope right after we signed him, and was never himself again after hurting himself with the Hawks. He was considered a big get for us at the time I think there were a bit reckless and got played by a great agent, Mark Bartlestien.

And it does look like we gave Jacob the extension when he had a bad back? Just based on the timeline and lack of any announcement of the new injury.

I also think they took Scotties friend at 31 and have no other plans for him.... just based on the fact they don't seem to have any plan or interest in developing him.

[PushDaRock]

Ring Chasing vs Padding his Scoring Totals, I don't know that either option would be looked at too fondly.

I dunno, at this stage of his career? I don't think anyone would have looked askance at Demar for chasing a winning situation at all. This is the time of a player's career where that becomes acceptable.

Nobody would really care, I'm saying not looked at too fondly more as in it wouldn't add to his legacy either.