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Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9

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Re: Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9 

Post#1281 » by Tripod » Sat Jun 7, 2025 2:04 am

OakleyDokely wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:
OakleyDokely wrote:24/25 season.

Guards: TS% while being defended by:

E Mobley: 51.4% (27.8% time spent)
D Green: 48.6% (27.4% time spent)
S Barnes: 52.5% (34.9% time spent)

Forwards: TS% while being defended by:

E Mobley: 50.9% (45.7% time spent)
D Green: 56.0% (44.9% time spent)
S Barnes: 51.5% (49.6% time spent)

Centers: TS% while being defended by:

E Mobley: 52.9% (26.6% time spent)
D Green: 52.9% (27.7% time spent)
S Barnes: 58.1% (15.5% time spent)

Overall: TS% while being defended by:

E Mobley: 51.5%
D Green: 52.5%
S Barnes: 52.8%


His defence is elite. That's never been in question. Nice to see the numbers though.



There's no reason why he shouldn't be on the all-defensive team almost every year of his career, along with competing for DPOY. He's one of a handful of guys who can defend all spots effectively.

The team needs to start winning because it's hard to get accolades on a 30 win team.

Perfect time to start getting the accolades, after his contract is now locked in.
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Re: Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9 

Post#1282 » by HangTime » Sat Jun 7, 2025 3:11 am

Tripod wrote:
OakleyDokely wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:
His defence is elite. That's never been in question. Nice to see the numbers though.



There's no reason why he shouldn't be on the all-defensive team almost every year of his career, along with competing for DPOY. He's one of a handful of guys who can defend all spots effectively.

The team needs to start winning because it's hard to get accolades on a 30 win team.

Perfect time to start getting the accolades, after his contract is now locked in.


He put All-defence and an All-NBA team aside this past year, so that the team could focus on team development (the thing that was neglected, in Scottie's first 2 years), and not get that super-max.

for some reason, people don't see the small things that are adding up.
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Re: Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9 

Post#1283 » by TakeYourHeart » Sat Jun 7, 2025 3:30 am

HangTime wrote:
Tripod wrote:
OakleyDokely wrote:

There's no reason why he shouldn't be on the all-defensive team almost every year of his career, along with competing for DPOY. He's one of a handful of guys who can defend all spots effectively.

The team needs to start winning because it's hard to get accolades on a 30 win team.

Perfect time to start getting the accolades, after his contract is now locked in.


He put All-defence and an All-NBA team aside this past year, so that the team could focus on team development (the thing that was neglected, in Scottie's first 2 years), and not get that super-max.

for some reason, people don't see the small things that are adding up.


He played 65 games chasing that All-NBA
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Re: Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9 

Post#1284 » by HangTime » Sat Jun 7, 2025 4:47 am

TakeYourHeart wrote:
HangTime wrote:
Tripod wrote:Perfect time to start getting the accolades, after his contract is now locked in.


He put All-defence and an All-NBA team aside this past year, so that the team could focus on team development (the thing that was neglected, in Scottie's first 2 years), and not get that super-max.

for some reason, people don't see the small things that are adding up.


He played 65 games chasing that All-NBA


That's the narrative for the media to spew.
Chasing all-NBA and being eligible (because of the threshold), are two different things.

He was never going to make it with team development as the focus. The young guys getting to lead with an injured star on the floor, that should be a shot of confidence for the player younger.

Darko put his difficulty at almost max level. I don't think people take that into account, especially the boxscore watchers.
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Re: Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9 

Post#1285 » by Scase » Sat Jun 7, 2025 5:30 am

TakeYourHeart wrote:
HangTime wrote:
Tripod wrote:Perfect time to start getting the accolades, after his contract is now locked in.


He put All-defence and an All-NBA team aside this past year, so that the team could focus on team development (the thing that was neglected, in Scottie's first 2 years), and not get that super-max.

for some reason, people don't see the small things that are adding up.


He played 65 games chasing that All-NBA

I wouldn't waste your time, he's got an excuse for literally everything when it comes to Scottie.
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Re: Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9 

Post#1286 » by HangTime » Sat Jun 7, 2025 2:59 pm

Scase wrote:
TakeYourHeart wrote:
HangTime wrote:
He put All-defence and an All-NBA team aside this past year, so that the team could focus on team development (the thing that was neglected, in Scottie's first 2 years), and not get that super-max.

for some reason, people don't see the small things that are adding up.


He played 65 games chasing that All-NBA

I wouldn't waste your time, he's got an excuse for literally everything when it comes to Scottie.


Well, people in the media, and people like you, can bash for his numbers, and don't look deeper into the situation.

I'm here to give some Cliff Notes for those who were passive watchers, boxscore watchers, or those who missed the season.

It's clear as day Scottie is way better than his raw numbers show, but this season was about team development.
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Re: Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9 

Post#1287 » by tsherkin » Sat Jun 7, 2025 3:19 pm

HangTime wrote:Well, people in the media, and people like you, can bash for his numbers, and don't look deeper into the situation.

I'm here to give some Cliff Notes for those who were passive watchers, boxscore watchers, or those who missed the season.

It's clear as day Scottie is way better than his raw numbers show, but this season was about team development.


No, it really isn't "clear as day," leastwise not with offense. I think everyone on this board can agree that his defense is something to be excited about, though. And we can agree that the team was definitely exploring what he could and couldn't do in lost seasons as far as trying to have him shoot and initiate more. We can also agree that there is a far more advantageous team context upcoming in the 25-26 season, providing for health, because we should have more spacing and a much better option to be our offensive lead. Ingram is pretty exciting, even with the damper of his health issues, because he is one of the best scorers we've had on the team... ever, and that's a massive upgrade over Scottie. That alone will alone will allow us to work at putting Scottie in more reasonable situations to try and maximize his value to us offensively, let alone hopefully having Quick all year and maybe a solid step-forward season from Gradey.

So there are things to be intrigued about this upcoming season, even with Scottie's offense. But acting like it's self-evident that Scottie's a lot better than 4 years worth of performance has indicated doesn't really make a lot of sense. This isn't one of those "all bad or all good, no middle" type of situations. There are a LOT of valid criticisms of his offense for anyone trying to treat him as more than his pre-draft scouting report indicated. He's consistently been good at the things we were told he was good at pre-NBA, and weak at the things we were told he was weak at prior to the draft. It hasn't really been that subtle, though obviously he's made some gains as far as his mid-range game. He just isn't an exciting scorer, though, and hasn't made large strides at it since hitting the league, which is disappointing.

But fortunately, we should no longer need to worry about that experiment, and now we can see what Scottie looks like when we deploy him in a more reasonable role. That is a hopeful thing, and I'm excited to see how well he can do defensively with a little less of an offensive burden on his shoulders.
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Re: Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9 

Post#1288 » by Mikistan » Sat Jun 7, 2025 3:31 pm

tsherkin wrote:
HangTime wrote:Well, people in the media, and people like you, can bash for his numbers, and don't look deeper into the situation.

I'm here to give some Cliff Notes for those who were passive watchers, boxscore watchers, or those who missed the season.

It's clear as day Scottie is way better than his raw numbers show, but this season was about team development.


No, it really isn't "clear as day," leastwise not with offense. I think everyone on this board can agree that his defense is something to be excited about, though. And we can agree that the team was definitely exploring what he could and couldn't do in lost seasons as far as trying to have him shoot and initiate more. We can also agree that there is a far more advantageous team context upcoming in the 25-26 season, providing for health, because we should have more spacing and a much better option to be our offensive lead. Ingram is pretty exciting, even with the damper of his health issues, because he is one of the best scorers we've had on the team... ever, and that's a massive upgrade over Scottie. That alone will alone will allow us to work at putting Scottie in more reasonable situations to try and maximize his value to us offensively, let alone hopefully having Quick all year and maybe a solid step-forward season from Gradey.

So there are things to be intrigued about this upcoming season, even with Scottie's offense. But acting like it's self-evident that Scottie's a lot better than 4 years worth of performance has indicated doesn't really make a lot of sense. This isn't one of those "all bad or all good, no middle" type of situations. There are a LOT of valid criticisms of his offense for anyone trying to treat him as more than his pre-draft scouting report indicated. He's consistently been good at the things we were told he was good at pre-NBA, and weak at the things we were told he was weak at prior to the draft. It hasn't really been that subtle, though obviously he's made some gains as far as his mid-range game. He just isn't an exciting scorer, though, and hasn't made large strides at it since hitting the league, which is disappointing.

But fortunately, we should no longer need to worry about that experiment, and now we can see what Scottie looks like when we deploy him in a more reasonable role. That is a hopeful thing, and I'm excited to see how well he can do defensively with a little less of an offensive burden on his shoulders.

Its clear as day
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Re: Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9 

Post#1289 » by tsherkin » Sat Jun 7, 2025 3:37 pm

Mikistan wrote:Its clear as day


:lol:

Anyway, there's stuff to be excited about with Scottie for the next season. I'm hoping that they spend the off-season teaching him how to screen, at last, because that would be an immediately helpful thing and a way to deploy him for an instant team efficacy boost. Like, if he could become a strong screener and roll man in general, that would shoot his value up on offense a ton almost overnight.

But regardless of whether or not that happens, if we have some health and aren't tanking, I'm curious to see what things look like as far as opening up the paint a bit, especially when Jak is sitting.
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Re: Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9 

Post#1290 » by Scase » Sat Jun 7, 2025 3:50 pm

HangTime wrote:
Scase wrote:
TakeYourHeart wrote:
He played 65 games chasing that All-NBA

I wouldn't waste your time, he's got an excuse for literally everything when it comes to Scottie.


Well, people in the media, and people like you, can bash for his numbers, and don't look deeper into the situation.

I'm here to give some Cliff Notes for those who were passive watchers, boxscore watchers, or those who missed the season.

It's clear as day Scottie is way better than his raw numbers show, but this season was about team development.

I have been one of Scotties biggest defenders on these boards, I'm just not delusional, I'm capable of seeing what he is trending towards.
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Re: Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9 

Post#1291 » by DreamTeam09 » Sat Jun 7, 2025 4:00 pm

HangTime wrote:
Scase wrote:
TakeYourHeart wrote:
He played 65 games chasing that All-NBA

I wouldn't waste your time, he's got an excuse for literally everything when it comes to Scottie.


Well, people in the media, and people like you, can bash for his numbers, and don't look deeper into the situation.

I'm here to give some Cliff Notes for those who were passive watchers, boxscore watchers, or those who missed the season.

It's clear as day Scottie is way better than his raw numbers show, but this season was about team development.


A lot of these responders wanted to tank from the outset, yet they expected a significant jump from the main player in a year of tanking & development.... If that's not counterintuitive and practically unlikely, I feel like most wanna complain for the sake of complaining or to prove to themselves that they understand the game of basketball better than others (which again is very self-centered)
If you're not ready or willing to take a wait & see approach then then your mind is just made up & no1 should be against reason.
Maybe next year would be a better year for proclamations on Scottie when we are actually trying to do something, not playing 3rd string C's on 10days....
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Re: Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9 

Post#1292 » by tsherkin » Sat Jun 7, 2025 4:29 pm

DreamTeam09 wrote:A lot of these responders wanted to tank from the outset, yet they expected a significant jump from the main player in a year of tanking & development.... If that's not counterintuitive and practically unlikely, I feel like most wanna complain for the sake of complaining or to prove to themselves that they understand the game of basketball better than others (which again is very self-centered)


So, at least from my POV, that isn't it. Lots of guys go into bad situations and are able to still perform well. The problem with Scottie is how profoundly horrible he has been relative to even that modest expectation (strictly speaking of his scoring). It isn't a viable, legitimate thing to say "oh, the team was bad so he didn't do well." That's something which holds true for roleplayers. But people were touting Scottie as the next offensive focal point and face of the franchise and all that. Players worthy of that mantle don't suck out as badly as Scottie did. But that's what happens when you're a weak shooter without elite athleticism, with inconsistent aggression and mediocre handles, and a player who was never supposed to be a high-end scorer, never projected that way.

Barnes has loads of strengths, and lots of ways to provide value to our team. But it wasn't a real stunner when he couldn't hack it as a primary scorer. He's not as bad as he looked last year, I think that is clear. Last year, he had the worst scoring efficiency among 61 guys scoring 19+ ppg. It was one of the worst scoring seasons we've seen in a quarter century. And it was on a TS% we saw from him in his second season, as well, as it happens. He isn't an efficient guy, he isn't a dominant scorer. He isn't at the level we saw from Pascal when he was with us as a 20+ ppg scorer, nor near a BI-level scorer. This shouldn't surprise anyone. Dude wasn't even efficient when he was taking 12 FGA/g, so he was never going to suddenly and magically become efficient with a higher level of scoring responsibility, that would have been a senseless expectation.

What he has shown is that he's an excellent defender and a good rebounder who can pass pretty well. He showed us he could develop any kind of mid-range game, and that he's quite bad from 3 everywhere (but especially above the break). So that tells us some of what he can do, and some of what he can't do. And now we have opportunities to adapt and re-position his role on offense to better leverage his strengths while mitigating his weaknesses. And with Quickley and Ingram around (and RJ, and maybe Gradey, etc), we shouldn't have to lean on him for volume scoring, which is also encouraging and will also be helpful. And whilst he's bad relative to league average, he still shoots 36% from the corners, so that's another angle we can explore to help him be individually more useful to us (maybe as like a stretch 4 type thing).

What he has consistently shown, however, is that he lacks burst, lacks shooting ability and can't really score efficiently. His best season was still below league average, and that was with him posting outlier levels of 3pt shooting in an abbreviated season. Which largely tells us everything we need to know about him as a scorer and what we can expect from him.

Guys who aren't elite athletes need certain things in order to be good scorers. And we can tolerate only so many guys who flirt with league-average efficiency before we're going to have some problems fielding a competent offense. It's worth realizing that among guys who played 1,000+ minutes last year, only Jak, Battle and Ochai were 100 TS+ guys or better. That's a problem. We need someone to drive our scoring far more effectively than that. Now, Ingram inbound, that should help a little and that might make Scottie at like 98 TS+ a little more palatable if he can get back there.


But yeah, circling back, we have years of Scottie, in various circumstances/environments and shooting volumes. We were a 48-win year his first season, a .500 team the year after. It's only these last two seasons where we have sucked. And over those first two seasons, at 12.6 and 13.2 FGA/g, he was a 98 and 90 TS+ player. Subsequently, 98 and 91 on 15.7 and 16.4 FGA/g. He's not even floating huge usage, he just doesn't produce strong scoring results. He's been below average from inside the arc every year after his rookie season (and well below in 2023 and this year), he's a disaster from 3 (even in 2024, he was a 93 3P+ guy), he's generally below average at free throw shooting (was about spot-on average in 2024)... but he's actually pretty good at drawing fouls. He's been -1.3, -7.1, -2.9 and -3.7% relative to league average from the corners, which isn't very encouraging at all.

His issues aren't about the team putting him in a bad spot. They're about his weaknesses, and about never projecting as a major scorer. So we just need to find a way to play him in a role which is more natural for his skill set, and minimizing the impact of his scoring weakness so that we can benefit from his strengths, which are noteworthy.
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Re: Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9 

Post#1293 » by Clay Davis » Sat Jun 7, 2025 4:53 pm

tsherkin wrote:
DreamTeam09 wrote:A lot of these responders wanted to tank from the outset, yet they expected a significant jump from the main player in a year of tanking & development.... If that's not counterintuitive and practically unlikely, I feel like most wanna complain for the sake of complaining or to prove to themselves that they understand the game of basketball better than others (which again is very self-centered)


So, at least from my POV, that isn't it. Lots of guys go into bad situations and are able to still perform well. The problem with Scottie is how profoundly horrible he has been relative to even that modest expectation (strictly speaking of his scoring). It isn't a viable, legitimate thing to say "oh, the team was bad so he didn't do well." That's something which holds true for roleplayers. But people were touting Scottie as the next offensive focal point and face of the franchise and all that. Players worthy of that mantle don't suck out as badly as Scottie did. But that's what happens when you're a weak shooter without elite athleticism, with inconsistent aggression and mediocre handles, and a player who was never supposed to be a high-end scorer, never projected that way.

Barnes has loads of strengths, and lots of ways to provide value to our team. But it wasn't a real stunner when he couldn't hack it as a primary scorer. He's not as bad as he looked last year, I think that is clear. Last year, he had the worst scoring efficiency among 61 guys scoring 19+ ppg. It was one of the worst scoring seasons we've seen in a quarter century. And it was on a TS% we saw from him in his second season, as well, as it happens. He isn't an efficient guy, he isn't a dominant scorer. He isn't at the level we saw from Pascal when he was with us as a 20+ ppg scorer, nor near a BI-level scorer. This shouldn't surprise anyone. Dude wasn't even efficient when he was taking 12 FGA/g, so he was never going to suddenly and magically become efficient with a higher level of scoring responsibility, that would have been a senseless expectation.

What he has shown is that he's an excellent defender and a good rebounder who can pass pretty well. He showed us he could develop any kind of mid-range game, and that he's quite bad from 3 everywhere (but especially above the break). So that tells us some of what he can do, and some of what he can't do. And now we have opportunities to adapt and re-position his role on offense to better leverage his strengths while mitigating his weaknesses. And with Quickley and Ingram around (and RJ, and maybe Gradey, etc), we shouldn't have to lean on him for volume scoring, which is also encouraging and will also be helpful. And whilst he's bad relative to league average, he still shoots 36% from the corners, so that's another angle we can explore to help him be individually more useful to us (maybe as like a stretch 4 type thing).

What he has consistently shown, however, is that he lacks burst, lacks shooting ability and can't really score efficiently. His best season was still below league average, and that was with him posting outlier levels of 3pt shooting in an abbreviated season. Which largely tells us everything we need to know about him as a scorer and what we can expect from him.

Guys who aren't elite athletes need certain things in order to be good scorers. And we can tolerate only so many guys who flirt with league-average efficiency before we're going to have some problems fielding a competent offense. It's worth realizing that among guys who played 1,000+ minutes last year, only Jak, Battle and Ochai were 100 TS+ guys or better. That's a problem. We need someone to drive our scoring far more effectively than that. Now, Ingram inbound, that should help a little and that might make Scottie at like 98 TS+ a little more palatable if he can get back there.


But yeah, circling back, we have years of Scottie, in various circumstances/environments and shooting volumes. We were a 48-win year his first season, a .500 team the year after. It's only these last two seasons where we have sucked. And over those first two seasons, at 12.6 and 13.2 FGA/g, he was a 98 and 90 TS+ player. Subsequently, 98 and 91 on 15.7 and 16.4 FGA/g. He's not even floating huge usage, he just doesn't produce strong scoring results. He's been below average from inside the arc every year after his rookie season (and well below in 2023 and this year), he's a disaster from 3 (even in 2024, he was a 93 3P+ guy), he's generally below average at free throw shooting (was about spot-on average in 2024)... but he's actually pretty good at drawing fouls. He's been -1.3, -7.1, -2.9 and -3.7% relative to league average from the corners, which isn't very encouraging at all.

His issues aren't about the team putting him in a bad spot. They're about his weaknesses, and about never projecting as a major scorer. So we just need to find a way to play him in a role which is more natural for his skill set, and minimizing the impact of his scoring weakness so that we can benefit from his strengths, which are noteworthy.


Great post Tsherkin. Very allegorical. The rizz of Scottie is multi-faceted: shines in some areas, is quite dull from others. We must set him in a jewel where the light will hit its most refractory surfaces. To do anything else is ass in nine.
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Re: Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9 

Post#1294 » by DreamTeam09 » Sat Jun 7, 2025 5:14 pm

tsherkin wrote:
DreamTeam09 wrote:A lot of these responders wanted to tank from the outset, yet they expected a significant jump from the main player in a year of tanking & development.... If that's not counterintuitive and practically unlikely, I feel like most wanna complain for the sake of complaining or to prove to themselves that they understand the game of basketball better than others (which again is very self-centered)


So, at least from my POV, that isn't it. Lots of guys go into bad situations and are able to still perform well. The problem with Scottie is how profoundly horrible he has been relative to even that modest expectation (strictly speaking of his scoring). It isn't a viable, legitimate thing to say "oh, the team was bad so he didn't do well." That's something which holds true for roleplayers. But people were touting Scottie as the next offensive focal point and face of the franchise and all that. Players worthy of that mantle don't suck out as badly as Scottie did. But that's what happens when you're a weak shooter without elite athleticism, with inconsistent aggression and mediocre handles, and a player who was never supposed to be a high-end scorer, never projected that way.

Barnes has loads of strengths, and lots of ways to provide value to our team. But it wasn't a real stunner when he couldn't hack it as a primary scorer. He's not as bad as he looked last year, I think that is clear. Last year, he had the worst scoring efficiency among 61 guys scoring 19+ ppg. It was one of the worst scoring seasons we've seen in a quarter century. And it was on a TS% we saw from him in his second season, as well, as it happens. He isn't an efficient guy, he isn't a dominant scorer. He isn't at the level we saw from Pascal when he was with us as a 20+ ppg scorer, nor near a BI-level scorer. This shouldn't surprise anyone. Dude wasn't even efficient when he was taking 12 FGA/g, so he was never going to suddenly and magically become efficient with a higher level of scoring responsibility, that would have been a senseless expectation.

What he has shown is that he's an excellent defender and a good rebounder who can pass pretty well. He showed us he could develop any kind of mid-range game, and that he's quite bad from 3 everywhere (but especially above the break). So that tells us some of what he can do, and some of what he can't do. And now we have opportunities to adapt and re-position his role on offense to better leverage his strengths while mitigating his weaknesses. And with Quickley and Ingram around (and RJ, and maybe Gradey, etc), we shouldn't have to lean on him for volume scoring, which is also encouraging and will also be helpful. And whilst he's bad relative to league average, he still shoots 36% from the corners, so that's another angle we can explore to help him be individually more useful to us (maybe as like a stretch 4 type thing).

What he has consistently shown, however, is that he lacks burst, lacks shooting ability and can't really score efficiently. His best season was still below league average, and that was with him posting outlier levels of 3pt shooting in an abbreviated season. Which largely tells us everything we need to know about him as a scorer and what we can expect from him.

Guys who aren't elite athletes need certain things in order to be good scorers. And we can tolerate only so many guys who flirt with league-average efficiency before we're going to have some problems fielding a competent offense. It's worth realizing that among guys who played 1,000+ minutes last year, only Jak, Battle and Ochai were 100 TS+ guys or better. That's a problem. We need someone to drive our scoring far more effectively than that. Now, Ingram inbound, that should help a little and that might make Scottie at like 98 TS+ a little more palatable if he can get back there.


But yeah, circling back, we have years of Scottie, in various circumstances/environments and shooting volumes. We were a 48-win year his first season, a .500 team the year after. It's only these last two seasons where we have sucked. And over those first two seasons, at 12.6 and 13.2 FGA/g, he was a 98 and 90 TS+ player. Subsequently, 98 and 91 on 15.7 and 16.4 FGA/g. He's not even floating huge usage, he just doesn't produce strong scoring results. He's been below average from inside the arc every year after his rookie season (and well below in 2023 and this year), he's a disaster from 3 (even in 2024, he was a 93 3P+ guy), he's generally below average at free throw shooting (was about spot-on average in 2024)... but he's actually pretty good at drawing fouls. He's been -1.3, -7.1, -2.9 and -3.7% relative to league average from the corners, which isn't very encouraging at all.

His issues aren't about the team putting him in a bad spot. They're about his weaknesses, and about never projecting as a major scorer. So we just need to find a way to play him in a role which is more natural for his skill set, and minimizing the impact of his scoring weakness so that we can benefit from his strengths, which are noteworthy.


Again if your gripe is that Scottie couldn't score with the likes of rookie Jamal Shead, Walter, Mogbo, castle, Robinson a bunch of 10 days and whatever one of 25+ different starting lineups we threw out there, then hey I get it. Barnes wasn't drafted to be a go to scorer and he's already exceeded expectations as far as his scoring output trajectory. Barnes value is that he literally does & is capable of doing everything on the basketball court. We've seen plenty of games where he's clearly the best player on the court. Pardon because I'm just jumping in responding to the last post, but this insistence on Barnes being your go to scorer with step backs & pull up 3s is not needed imo if that is the argument. Do I / we want improvement, of course & we have, stalling out yr 4 is crazy to believe. Especially when we are now insulating the team with more scorers.
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Re: Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9 

Post#1295 » by tsherkin » Sat Jun 7, 2025 5:38 pm

Clay Davis wrote:The rizz of Scottie is multi-faceted: shines in some areas, is quite dull from others. We must set him in a jewel where the light will hit its most refractory surfaces. To do anything else is ass in nine.


Hehehe, lovely.

DreamTeam09 wrote:
Again if your gripe is that Scottie couldn't score with the likes of rookie Jamal Shead, Walter, Mogbo, castle, Robinson a bunch of 10 days and whatever one of 25+ different starting lineups we threw out there, then hey I get it. Barnes wasn't drafted to be a go to scorer and he's already exceeded expectations as far as his scoring output trajectory.


Has he, thought? I suppose if all you care about is pure volume, then sure, but anyone can put up volume with enough attempts if you don't care about efficiency at all.

Barnes value is that he literally does & is capable of doing everything on the basketball court. We've seen plenty of games where he's clearly the best player on the court. Pardon because I'm just jumping in responding to the last post, but this insistence on Barnes being your go to scorer with step backs & pull up 3s is not needed imo if that is the argument.


Yes, I agree that we do not need him to be a go-to scorer and we shouldn't have him taking pull-up 3s or stepbacks... or really any 3s above the break. But in the same breath, I think he is still a very good player if we aren't ramming possessions to him and trying to force him into something he's not.

I'd be very happy with Scottie down to 10 or 12 very sculpted FGA/g, emphasizing his defense and occasionally using him as a playmaker. He's a touch overpaid, but it is what it is. And if he starts catching All-D selections, we'll worry less about that, undoubtedly. And he definitely has that level of defensive ability.

Do I / we want improvement, of course & we have, stalling out yr 4 is crazy to believe. Especially when we are now insulating the team with more scorers.
I'm here for discourse


So, as I said in my earlier post, I think there are ways to improve his value as a scoring threat. The first is to release him of focal obligation. That SHOULD be happening right away. Then it's to slap him right in the mouth every time he takes an above-break 3, because he's not good at them. Then it's about getting him to screen competently, cut well off-ball, and see if we can't leverage a little of his post game. And then SOME of those drives. He's also pretty good in transition, more as a passer than as a scorer but that's useful anyway. So we should 100% keep letting him race the ball up the court in transition because he's a good defensive rebounder and that option presents itself often.

The trick is that we need to be very clear that he isn't supposed to be a 20+ ppg scorer, and he isnt' supposed to be a volume isolation guy. He isn't good at those things to any degree which makes it worthwhile to send such possessions his way. So if we can start emphasizing more off-ball action and the play types at which he IS somewhat proficient, his overall look as a scorer will be much better.

There's potential there, just not as the type of dominant focal scorer which we lack so badly right now.
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Re: Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9 

Post#1296 » by Clay Davis » Sat Jun 7, 2025 6:24 pm

tsherkin wrote:
Clay Davis wrote:The rizz of Scottie is multi-faceted: shines in some areas, is quite dull from others. We must set him in a jewel where the light will hit its most refractory surfaces. To do anything else is ass in nine.


Hehehe, lovely.

DreamTeam09 wrote:
Again if your gripe is that Scottie couldn't score with the likes of rookie Jamal Shead, Walter, Mogbo, castle, Robinson a bunch of 10 days and whatever one of 25+ different starting lineups we threw out there, then hey I get it. Barnes wasn't drafted to be a go to scorer and he's already exceeded expectations as far as his scoring output trajectory.


Has he, thought? I suppose if all you care about is pure volume, then sure, but anyone can put up volume with enough attempts if you don't care about efficiency at all.

Barnes value is that he literally does & is capable of doing everything on the basketball court. We've seen plenty of games where he's clearly the best player on the court. Pardon because I'm just jumping in responding to the last post, but this insistence on Barnes being your go to scorer with step backs & pull up 3s is not needed imo if that is the argument.


Yes, I agree that we do not need him to be a go-to scorer and we shouldn't have him taking pull-up 3s or stepbacks... or really any 3s above the break. But in the same breath, I think he is still a very good player if we aren't ramming possessions to him and trying to force him into something he's not.

I'd be very happy with Scottie down to 10 or 12 very sculpted FGA/g, emphasizing his defense and occasionally using him as a playmaker. He's a touch overpaid, but it is what it is. And if he starts catching All-D selections, we'll worry less about that, undoubtedly. And he definitely has that level of defensive ability.

Do I / we want improvement, of course & we have, stalling out yr 4 is crazy to believe. Especially when we are now insulating the team with more scorers.
I'm here for discourse


So, as I said in my earlier post, I think there are ways to improve his value as a scoring threat. The first is to release him of focal obligation. That SHOULD be happening right away. Then it's to slap him right in the mouth every time he takes an above-break 3, because he's not good at them. Then it's about getting him to screen competently, cut well off-ball, and see if we can't leverage a little of his post game. And then SOME of those drives. He's also pretty good in transition, more as a passer than as a scorer but that's useful anyway. So we should 100% keep letting him race the ball up the court in transition because he's a good defensive rebounder and that option presents itself often.

The trick is that we need to be very clear that he isn't supposed to be a 20+ ppg scorer, and he isnt' supposed to be a volume isolation guy. He isn't good at those things to any degree which makes it worthwhile to send such possessions his way. So if we can start emphasizing more off-ball action and the play types at which he IS somewhat proficient, his overall look as a scorer will be much better.

There's potential there, just not as the type of dominant focal scorer which we lack so badly right now.


How do you think Scottie would do in Siakam's current role? Running in transition, attacking mismatches? I think he's great at attacking smaller defenders, since he actually has a good touch and he's naturally physically imposing. I believe his rizz will be unlocked by improving his handles. Unlikely that that happens but... maybe he proves us wrong.
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Re: Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9 

Post#1297 » by tsherkin » Sat Jun 7, 2025 6:30 pm

Clay Davis wrote:How do you think Scottie would do in Siakam's current role? Running in transition, attacking mismatches? I think he's great at attacking smaller defenders, since he actually has a good touch and he's naturally physically imposing. I believe his rizz will be unlocked by improving his handles. Unlikely that that happens but... maybe he proves us wrong.


Not great. Siakam is actually quite good at iso and post isolation scoring. Scottie is not. He's also a good above-break 3pt shooter, which Scottie is not... and a good corner 3pt shooter, which (you guessed it) Scottie is not.

He doesn't have the tools, and Siakam shoots at a volume comparable to Scottie's biggest-volume years, which isn't a good thing.

I think the volume is too much, BUT, I think he'd probably be a 35% shooter from 3 with limited ATB usage. And if he was more as a third option type guy, he'd probably look quite reasonable. And of course his defense would make a LARGE difference to Indiana's ability to disrupt the opposition.
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Re: Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9 

Post#1298 » by Spates » Sat Jun 7, 2025 6:33 pm

Clay Davis wrote:
tsherkin wrote:
Clay Davis wrote:The rizz of Scottie is multi-faceted: shines in some areas, is quite dull from others. We must set him in a jewel where the light will hit its most refractory surfaces. To do anything else is ass in nine.


Hehehe, lovely.

DreamTeam09 wrote:
Again if your gripe is that Scottie couldn't score with the likes of rookie Jamal Shead, Walter, Mogbo, castle, Robinson a bunch of 10 days and whatever one of 25+ different starting lineups we threw out there, then hey I get it. Barnes wasn't drafted to be a go to scorer and he's already exceeded expectations as far as his scoring output trajectory.


Has he, thought? I suppose if all you care about is pure volume, then sure, but anyone can put up volume with enough attempts if you don't care about efficiency at all.

Barnes value is that he literally does & is capable of doing everything on the basketball court. We've seen plenty of games where he's clearly the best player on the court. Pardon because I'm just jumping in responding to the last post, but this insistence on Barnes being your go to scorer with step backs & pull up 3s is not needed imo if that is the argument.


Yes, I agree that we do not need him to be a go-to scorer and we shouldn't have him taking pull-up 3s or stepbacks... or really any 3s above the break. But in the same breath, I think he is still a very good player if we aren't ramming possessions to him and trying to force him into something he's not.

I'd be very happy with Scottie down to 10 or 12 very sculpted FGA/g, emphasizing his defense and occasionally using him as a playmaker. He's a touch overpaid, but it is what it is. And if he starts catching All-D selections, we'll worry less about that, undoubtedly. And he definitely has that level of defensive ability.

Do I / we want improvement, of course & we have, stalling out yr 4 is crazy to believe. Especially when we are now insulating the team with more scorers.
I'm here for discourse


So, as I said in my earlier post, I think there are ways to improve his value as a scoring threat. The first is to release him of focal obligation. That SHOULD be happening right away. Then it's to slap him right in the mouth every time he takes an above-break 3, because he's not good at them. Then it's about getting him to screen competently, cut well off-ball, and see if we can't leverage a little of his post game. And then SOME of those drives. He's also pretty good in transition, more as a passer than as a scorer but that's useful anyway. So we should 100% keep letting him race the ball up the court in transition because he's a good defensive rebounder and that option presents itself often.

The trick is that we need to be very clear that he isn't supposed to be a 20+ ppg scorer, and he isnt' supposed to be a volume isolation guy. He isn't good at those things to any degree which makes it worthwhile to send such possessions his way. So if we can start emphasizing more off-ball action and the play types at which he IS somewhat proficient, his overall look as a scorer will be much better.

There's potential there, just not as the type of dominant focal scorer which we lack so badly right now.


How do you think Scottie would do in Siakam's current role? Running in transition, attacking mismatches? I think he's great at attacking smaller defenders, since he actually has a good touch and he's naturally physically imposing. I believe his rizz will be unlocked by improving his handles. Unlikely that that happens but... maybe he proves us wrong.

Scootie doesn't have Siakam's motor. Neither does he have Pascal's refines midrange. Scottie is dusting off the dreams of being like Tyrese Haliburton
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Re: Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9 

Post#1299 » by tsherkin » Sat Jun 7, 2025 6:39 pm

Spates wrote:Scootie doesn't have Siakam's motor. Neither does he have Pascal's refines midrange. Scottie is dusting off the dreams of being like Tyrese Haliburton


I'm hopeful with Scottie. He has a frame which could make him such an effective screener if he was willing/knew how to set a real screen. And then that improved short jumper and his basic post game could couple to his passing and help him play more like an older Karl Malone.

Like, picture 97, 98 Karl Malone. Big, not blindingly fast, good pop jumper, great roll man passer, still strong in transition. Acceptable but unremarkable power post game.

THAT'S the archetype we should be chasing with Scottie. Not, you know, as a 25-30 ppg scorer of course, but you get the notion. He has all the tools to be quite deadly in that role.
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Re: Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9 

Post#1300 » by Scase » Sat Jun 7, 2025 7:40 pm

It is wild to me that people being realistic about objective reality, is considered hating. He's not a good offensive player, he is a very good defensive player, he is not going to be Giannis 2.0, that's not heresy.
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