Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread Part 9

DarkKnight · Post #1341 » by **DarkKnight** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:28 pm

The problem is that the whole draft is made up of these players. Val *could* develop things he hasn't shown yet but is most likely an energy big. Walker *could* develop real PG skills and/or a working jumpshot but is more likely an energy combo guy off the bench a la Barea. Knight *could* develop real PG skills and better dribbling/attack moves but is most likely a backup combo guard with a decent jumper. Kanter *could* be an all-around talent with the ability to be a C in the NBA but is most likely a defensive seive with an array of below-the-rim offensive moves that may or may not work in the NBA. Biyombo *could* be a DPOY candidate and Ben Wallace-style game changer but is most likely a backup big with good defense and terrible offense. It goes on and on.

Whoever they take in this draft is both a great pick and a terrible pick, depending on what you are looking for and how much you believe in a particular player's development. Personally, I wouldn't touch Kanter, Walker, Val, or Vesely and would be OK with Knight, Biyombo, or Leonard...but I could see people who have that completely reversed and they may be right.

Best play at this point? Move to #2 and take D-Will (or irving if something crazy happens). Give the wolves good value to do it. It's a worthwhile play because the risk of busting a top 5 pick is too high in this draft at #5, and the raps just cant afford to come away from this draft empty-handed in 3 years. I would think that #5 plus a future first (lottery protected through 2015 or something) might be enough to move to 2 since Williams duplicates what Johnson and Beasley give them in Minny. Raptors get one of only 2 guys who don't really have bust potential and can move on to next year's draft where things aren't so murky/crappy.

Dr Positivity · Post #1342 » by **Dr Positivity** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:41 pm

DarkKnight wrote:The problem is that the whole draft is made up of these players. Val *could* develop things he hasn't shown yet but is most likely an energy big. Walker *could* develop real PG skills and/or a working jumpshot but is more likely an energy combo guy off the bench a la Barea. Knight *could* develop real PG skills and better dribbling/attack moves but is most likely a backup combo guard with a decent jumper. Kanter *could* be an all-around talent with the ability to be a C in the NBA but is most likely a defensive seive with an array of below-the-rim offensive moves that may or may not work in the NBA. Biyombo *could* be a DPOY candidate and Ben Wallace-style game changer but is most likely a backup big with good defense and terrible offense. It goes on and on.

Whoever they take in this draft is both a great pick and a terrible pick, depending on what you are looking for and how much you believe in a particular player's development. Personally, I wouldn't touch Kanter, Walker, Val, or Vesely and would be OK with Knight, Biyombo, or Leonard...but I could see people who have that completely reversed and they may be right.

Best play at this point? Move to #2 and take D-Will (or irving if something crazy happens). Give the wolves good value to do it. It's a worthwhile play because the risk of busting a top 5 pick is too high in this draft at #5, and the raps just cant afford to come away from this draft empty-handed in 3 years. I would think that #5 plus a future first (lottery protected through 2015 or something) might be enough to move to 2 since Williams duplicates what Johnson and Beasley give them in Minny. Raptors get one of only 2 guys who don't really have bust potential and can move on to next year's draft where things aren't so murky/crappy.

Great post. There's a lot of projecting with these prospects that they'll be something other than they are. Most likely situation is Val remaining an energy big, Kemba remaining a 6'1 SG, Knight remaining a 3pt shooting combo guard. Vesely remaining a dunker with limited polish. Most draft leopards don't change their stripes.

That's why I look at 3 guys Burks, Motiejunas and Jimmer and I see guaranteed drive the paint ability, guaranteed post up skill, and guaranteed 3pt bombing perimeter ability - I don't see the projection as much with those guys. With a guy like Jimmer the question is "Will this leopard keep his stripes or will he lose them in the NBA?" I'd always feel more confident in that than asking a player to change them.

DarkKnight · Post #1343 » by **DarkKnight** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:56 pm

Dr Mufasa wrote:
DarkKnight wrote:The problem is that the whole draft is made up of these players. Val *could* develop things he hasn't shown yet but is most likely an energy big. Walker *could* develop real PG skills and/or a working jumpshot but is more likely an energy combo guy off the bench a la Barea. Knight *could* develop real PG skills and better dribbling/attack moves but is most likely a backup combo guard with a decent jumper. Kanter *could* be an all-around talent with the ability to be a C in the NBA but is most likely a defensive seive with an array of below-the-rim offensive moves that may or may not work in the NBA. Biyombo *could* be a DPOY candidate and Ben Wallace-style game changer but is most likely a backup big with good defense and terrible offense. It goes on and on.

Whoever they take in this draft is both a great pick and a terrible pick, depending on what you are looking for and how much you believe in a particular player's development. Personally, I wouldn't touch Kanter, Walker, Val, or Vesely and would be OK with Knight, Biyombo, or Leonard...but I could see people who have that completely reversed and they may be right.

Best play at this point? Move to #2 and take D-Will (or irving if something crazy happens). Give the wolves good value to do it. It's a worthwhile play because the risk of busting a top 5 pick is too high in this draft at #5, and the raps just cant afford to come away from this draft empty-handed in 3 years. I would think that #5 plus a future first (lottery protected through 2015 or something) might be enough to move to 2 since Williams duplicates what Johnson and Beasley give them in Minny. Raptors get one of only 2 guys who don't really have bust potential and can move on to next year's draft where things aren't so murky/crappy.

Great post. There's a lot of projecting with these prospects that they'll be something other than they are. Most likely situation is Val remaining an energy big, Kemba remaining a 6'1 SG, Knight remaining a 3pt shooting combo guard. Vesely remaining a dunker with limited polish. Most draft leopards don't change their stripes.

That's why I look at 3 guys Burks, Motiejunas and Jimmer and I see guaranteed drive the paint ability, guaranteed post up skill, and guaranteed 3pt bombing perimeter ability - I don't see the projection as much with those guys. With a guy like Jimmer the question is "Will this leopard keep his stripes or will he lose them in the NBA?" I'd always feel more confident in that than asking a player to change them.

It's true that some of the lower guys have more guarantees, and the trade-off is lower presumed upside. I don't think anyone is expecting Jimmer to make an all-star team at any point, and Donatas is just so Bargnani that I don't think he can come here. Burks is interesting but same position as demar. It's the age old question - production vs upside. If you can get both, you're set (Ed Davis, for instance, was productive, young, and talented). If you can only get one, you have to figure out how much production vs how high an upside times the likelihood of reaching it. This draft is stocked with guys who only have 1, so in my mind you have to go with high upside (biyombo) or production in the areas where we dont produce (perimeter defence with Leonard or Knight). But anything could happen.

Dr Positivity · Post #1344 » by **Dr Positivity** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:09 pm

I don't like the Motie Bargs comparison. Motie is not a shooting big man. He is a post player who can hit shots. I'd say more Euro Brook Lopez than Bargnani if he ends up a scorer/no d and rebounding guy.

DarkKnight · Post #1345 » by **DarkKnight** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:17 pm

Dr Mufasa wrote:I don't like the Motie Bargs comparison. Motie is not a shooting big man. He is a post player who can hit shots. I'd say more Euro Brook Lopez than Bargnani if he ends up a scorer/no d and rebounding guy.

At 215lbs he's going to have trouble making a living in the post. With his supposed allergy to Defense and his below-average rebounding for his size, I think the Bargnani comparisons (and instant dislike that people will have) make him a poor fit for the raptors.

His eurocamp workout was as bad as Biymobo's, but he's supposed to be the kind of guy who looks better in 1-on-0 where BB is a 5-on-5 guy. Just don't see DM being any safer than any of the other bigs.

Dr Positivity · Post #1346 » by **Dr Positivity** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:29 pm

Alfred wrote:ZERO post ability? You've admitted that you've never watched a game of his. He does have post ability. He has a hook shot that goes in more often than it doesn't. You don't know what you're talking about.

Need I remind people what your draft board looks like?

http://asubstituteforwar.com/2011/06/03 ... big-board/

I love the "attack the poster!" route in draft debates. Always the best sign of weakness. Especially from someone who championed "1 PER in his rookie season" Luke Babbitt at #13

And I'd wait a year before jumping on someone's big board. We'll see how people feel about Burks, Motiejunas, Kemba and Valanciunas a year from now

bboyskinnylegs · Post #1347 » by **bboyskinnylegs** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:39 pm

not sure how much stock to put into this, but these are some reports from the Brooks/Burks, and Kemba/Jimmer workouts today:
http://thehoopsreport.com/article.aspx?id=747

A source at the Utah Jazz workout told me Jimmer Fredette was the best player in the workout and that Kemba Walker had trouble guarding him. The source also said that Fredette shot the ball really well and Walker didn't shoot well at all.

Multiple sources at the Charlotte Bobcats workout told me Marshon Brooks easily won his matchup and had his way with Burks. The sources said it really wasn't even all that close. Brooks apparently also had an impressive dunk on Burks at one point in the workout.

Silk Wilkes · Post #1348 » by **Silk Wilkes** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:41 pm

bboyskinnylegs wrote:not sure how much stock to put into this, but these are some reports from the Brooks/Burks, and Kemba/Jimmer workouts today:
http://thehoopsreport.com/article.aspx?id=747

A source at the Utah Jazz workout told me Jimmer Fredette was the best player in the workout and that Kemba Walker had trouble guarding him. The source also said that Fredette shot the ball really well and Walker didn't shoot well at all.

Multiple sources at the Charlotte Bobcats workout told me Marshon Brooks easily won his matchup and had his way with Burks. The sources said it really wasn't even all that close. Brooks apparently also had an impressive dunk on Burks at one point in the workout.

This makes things clear as mud for me...

Garmfay · Post #1349 » by **Garmfay** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:41 pm

Jimmer outplayed Kemba in Utah??

http://thehoopsreport.com/article.aspx?id=747

A source at the Utah Jazz workout told me Jimmer Fredette was the best player in the workout and that Kemba Walker had trouble guarding him. The source also said that Fredette shot the ball really well and Walker didn't shoot well at all

EDIT: Already Posted

Dr Positivity · Post #1350 » by **Dr Positivity** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:44 pm

Marshon Brooks will be the steal of the draft... for 2 or 3 seasons, until teams realize like Tyreke Evans that 18ppg is not as fun when it's on .50 TS%, he's a lock for 16 FGA a game and he never passes it and it's leading to 22 Ws a season. But even Jamal Crawford and Ricky Davis' career probably makes him a good pick wherever he goes, in this draft

DarkKnight · Post #1351 » by **DarkKnight** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:58 pm

Just further proof that Kemba is heavily overvalued based in large part on one game where the entire Butler team couldn't shoot. Butler shoots well that game and I think Kemba drops out of the lottery. If he can't shoot (couldn't in high school, couldn't in 3 years in college, couldn't in 1-on-0, couldn't against Jimmer) and his defense is average or worse, then there's no way he's an NBA starter at the most loaded position in the league.

Silk Wilkes · Post #1352 » by **Silk Wilkes** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:04 pm

There's a reason I have him ranked so high. Although he probably moves past Burks now. I really like Tyler's game.

TheRealDeal · Post #1353 » by **TheRealDeal** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:10 pm

bboyskinnylegs wrote:not sure how much stock to put into this, but these are some reports from the Brooks/Burks, and Kemba/Jimmer workouts today:
http://thehoopsreport.com/article.aspx?id=747

A source at the Utah Jazz workout told me Jimmer Fredette was the best player in the workout and that Kemba Walker had trouble guarding him.

Who doesn't have trouble guarding Jimmer? He's a brilliant offensive player.

Not surprised the Jazz like Jimmer. He makes too much sense for them from a marketing perspective.

Post #1354 » by **Mr Swagtastic** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:12 pm

Wow Bismack Biyombo must have tanked in his workout NBAdraft.net has him at #20 now and that scrub Jimmer at #7 ahead of both Burks and Kemba Walker and even Kawhi Leonard. That is insane I just hope that guy never gets drafted on this team I don't want JJ Reddick 2.0 here another good collage scorer but a pretty much bad everything else player Jan Vesely and Jimmer have bust written all over them. I wonder if we could get a later 1st to get Marshon Brooks, Bismack Biyombo (if he indeed goes there or Cory Joseph grab

Weems · Post #1355 » by **Weems** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:21 pm

NBAdraft.net has never had Biyombo high. I don't believe he's ever been higher than 20 there.

Jimmer looks impressive. His defence is the major question mark, as it should be, but he tested athletically and he's performing well athletically. I'm thinking he could be a decent 6th man type now if he's worked on his athleticism some. He was tragically **** defensively in the games I saw in march madness but yeah...

No surprise to me that Jimmer outplayed Walker. The Walker hype is repulsive.

Post #1356 » by **Rhettmatic** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:24 pm

WolstatSun Ryan Wolstat
Re: Kawhi Leonard. Jim Kelly lives in San Diego, #Raptors know him inside-out as well as any team. Not always a good thing for a prospect

Silk Wilkes · Post #1357 » by **Silk Wilkes** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:26 pm

Rhettmatic wrote:
WolstatSun Ryan Wolstat
Re: Kawhi Leonard. Jim Kelly lives in San Diego, #Raptors know him inside-out as well as any team. Not always a good thing for a prospect

Jim Kelly knowing a prospect in and out could mean death.

dagger · Post #1358 » by **dagger** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:30 pm

xbl_sucks wrote:Wow Bismack Biyombo must have tanked in his workout NBAdraft.net has him at #20 now and that scrub Jimmer at #7 ahead of both Burks and Kemba Walker and even Kawhi Leonard. That is insane I just hope that guy never gets drafted on this team I don't want JJ Reddick 2.0 here another good collage scorer but a pretty much bad everything else player Jan Vesely and Jimmer have bust written all over them. I wonder if we could get a later 1st to get Marshon Brooks, Bismack Biyombo (if he indeed goes there or Cory Joseph grab

It's amazing how many stereotypes some of you can weave into your thinking. A guy who is very athletic but has virtually no offence is suddenly Dwight Howard while the white point guard with the lights out shooting is suddenly JJ Reddick 2.0. Oh and Vesely is a bust too because he's white? European?

Some of you flat out embarrass this board.

I'll predict Jimmer goes no lower than 7th and has an excellent career. He's not the two way player I want, but man, Stephen Curry isn't much of a defender either and I suspect Jimmer will be as good as him offensively and way, way better than JJ Reddick.

Kreamy · Post #1359 » by **Kreamy** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:35 pm

Seems like if Jimmer was black, he'd probably be the consensus 3rd pick.

Silk Wilkes · Post #1360 » by **Silk Wilkes** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:38 pm

dagger wrote:
xbl_sucks wrote:Wow Bismack Biyombo must have tanked in his workout NBAdraft.net has him at #20 now and that scrub Jimmer at #7 ahead of both Burks and Kemba Walker and even Kawhi Leonard. That is insane I just hope that guy never gets drafted on this team I don't want JJ Reddick 2.0 here another good collage scorer but a pretty much bad everything else player Jan Vesely and Jimmer have bust written all over them. I wonder if we could get a later 1st to get Marshon Brooks, Bismack Biyombo (if he indeed goes there or Cory Joseph grab

It's amazing how many stereotypes some of you can weave into your thinking. A guy who is very athletic but has virtually no offence is suddenly Dwight Howard while the white point guard with the lights out shooting is suddenly JJ Reddick 2.0. Oh and Vesely is a bust too because he's white? European?

Some of you flat out embarrass this board.

I'll predict Jimmer goes no lower than 7th and has an excellent career. He's not the two way player I want, but man, Stephen Curry isn't much of a defender either and I suspect Jimmer will be as good as him offensively and way, way better than JJ Reddick.

You don't know that getting mad over people's opinion on anything, especially the draft, is a losing battle? Jimmer's ceiling is probably Prime Arenas (I realize how high that is, which is why it's the ceiling), and his bottom is probably the Adam Morrison role, lol. Biyombo's ceiling is Ben Wallace with his floor being out of the league by the time he has to sign his 2nd contract. As for Vesely, I have no idea but I've seen his highlights and he seems like a hustle player at best to me.