Official RJ Barrett Thread

[ATLTimekeeper]

But this is exactly what everyone who is "complaining" is saying. People aren't complaining RJ just to complain, they are complaining about specific aspects of his game that indicate the same thing as those players traded, they don't have championship calibre skill sets.

Both IQ and Scottie do. RJ currently is DD with a considerably worse mid range game. I think most everyone who watched the DD years here can unequivocally say he does not possess any championship calibre skills outside his mid range game, and the value of that in the modern NBA is debatable.

The people "complaining" are simply saying the same thing that was said about the traded players, and they were right back then. Time will tell if that is the same case here, but it's not like there isn't precedent, people used to complain about DD's limitations all the time, and they were valid complaints cause they limited the ceiling of the team. So he was traded.

They have championship calibre skillsets, but they were upgraded for better players. A lot of players can play on championship teams. Kyle Lowry was almost traded, too. Creating hate campaigns about good players that last a long time in the NBA is stupid. On one team Porzingis or Pau Gasol are soft losers, that draw the ire of their fanbases until they're traded for peanuts, on another they're talented champs. There's fans that understand this and then there's fans that have nothing better to do but campaign endlessly against these players.

Right now, the Raptors have zero players that fit into a 1, 2, 3 championship core. It's all based on potential. Scottie is not a #1, not even close. IQ is not a #2, not even close. RJ is not a #3, not even close.

[anotherhomer]

We don't have a championship core but our team is not as dire as it seems

Rj is a decent player who can get better

[sofargone]

i disagree with the DD comparisons, rj has the ability to play off-ball and make threes something DD struggled with which made him harder to fit in lineups

[billy_hoyle]

But this is exactly what everyone who is "complaining" is saying. People aren't complaining RJ just to complain, they are complaining about specific aspects of his game that indicate the same thing as those players traded, they don't have championship calibre skill sets.

Both IQ and Scottie do. RJ currently is DD with a considerably worse mid range game. I think most everyone who watched the DD years here can unequivocally say he does not possess any championship calibre skills outside his mid range game, and the value of that in the modern NBA is debatable.

The people "complaining" are simply saying the same thing that was said about the traded players, and they were right back then. Time will tell if that is the same case here, but it's not like there isn't precedent, people used to complain about DD's limitations all the time, and they were valid complaints cause they limited the ceiling of the team. So he was traded.

They have championship calibre skillsets, but they were upgraded for better players. A lot of players can play on championship teams. Kyle Lowry was almost traded, too. Creating hate campaigns about good players that last a long time in the NBA is stupid. On one team Porzingis or Pau Gasol are soft losers, that draw the ire of their fanbases until they're traded for peanuts, on another they're talented champs. There's fans that understand this and then there's fans that have nothing better to do but campaign endlessly against these players.

Right now, the Raptors have zero players that fit into a 1, 2, 3 championship core. It's all based on potential. Scottie is not a #1, not even close. IQ is not a #2, not even close. RJ is not a #3, not even close.

I think RJ is closer to a championship no.3 than the other two are of being a 1 or 2, respectively.

People just don't like poor defensive players. RJ will need to improve on that end for posters to think he is worth building a contender with. I think it's that simple.

[Scase]

But this is exactly what everyone who is "complaining" is saying. People aren't complaining RJ just to complain, they are complaining about specific aspects of his game that indicate the same thing as those players traded, they don't have championship calibre skill sets.

Both IQ and Scottie do. RJ currently is DD with a considerably worse mid range game. I think most everyone who watched the DD years here can unequivocally say he does not possess any championship calibre skills outside his mid range game, and the value of that in the modern NBA is debatable.

The people "complaining" are simply saying the same thing that was said about the traded players, and they were right back then. Time will tell if that is the same case here, but it's not like there isn't precedent, people used to complain about DD's limitations all the time, and they were valid complaints cause they limited the ceiling of the team. So he was traded.

They have championship calibre skillsets, but they were upgraded for better players. A lot of players can play on championship teams. Kyle Lowry was almost traded, too. Creating hate campaigns about good players that last a long time in the NBA is stupid. On one team Porzingis or Pau Gasol are soft losers, that draw the ire of their fanbases until they're traded for peanuts, on another they're talented champs. There's fans that understand this and then there's fans that have nothing better to do but campaign endlessly against these players.

Right now, the Raptors have zero players that fit into a 1, 2, 3 championship core. It's all based on potential. Scottie is not a #1, not even close. IQ is not a #2, not even close. RJ is not a #3, not even close.

Can we chill on calling basic criticism a "hate campaign", like jesus dude.

DD is a good player, he also has a skill set that you won't find utilized as a primary part of a championship team in the last 10-15 years. There are no primary or secondary scoring options on championship teams that can only play in the mid range, nor are there any that can only drive to the rim. Because 1 dimensional players are easy to shut down, how is this even a discussion?

You seem to be getting confused. No one is saying the players on our roster currently would be part of a championship core, not a single person. What people ARE saying is that the SKILL SETS of the players fit a championship team.

Scottie has great vision, is an excellent help defender, a very good man defender, and despite having no go to move, can still put up solid numbers on decent efficiency.

IQ has top of the league above the break 3pt shooting, which is pretty much an absolute requirement in the modern NBA, and he's not a complete negative on defence.

RJ has top tier rim driving ability, bottom of the NBA as in FOURTH percentile FT rate, and bottom half of the NBA And1 rates, which kinda kills the benefit of his ability to draw fouls. His defence is bottom 3rd of the NBA and that's being generous.

A player with 1 offensive weapon and terrible defence is not found on any championship team as a number 1, 2 or 3 scorer. Stop parading around like people are calling him the worst player in NBA history, these are all very measured takes backed up by historical stats and actually watching the games.

[Scase]

But this is exactly what everyone who is "complaining" is saying. People aren't complaining RJ just to complain, they are complaining about specific aspects of his game that indicate the same thing as those players traded, they don't have championship calibre skill sets.

Both IQ and Scottie do. RJ currently is DD with a considerably worse mid range game. I think most everyone who watched the DD years here can unequivocally say he does not possess any championship calibre skills outside his mid range game, and the value of that in the modern NBA is debatable.

The people "complaining" are simply saying the same thing that was said about the traded players, and they were right back then. Time will tell if that is the same case here, but it's not like there isn't precedent, people used to complain about DD's limitations all the time, and they were valid complaints cause they limited the ceiling of the team. So he was traded.

They have championship calibre skillsets, but they were upgraded for better players. A lot of players can play on championship teams. Kyle Lowry was almost traded, too. Creating hate campaigns about good players that last a long time in the NBA is stupid. On one team Porzingis or Pau Gasol are soft losers, that draw the ire of their fanbases until they're traded for peanuts, on another they're talented champs. There's fans that understand this and then there's fans that have nothing better to do but campaign endlessly against these players.

Right now, the Raptors have zero players that fit into a 1, 2, 3 championship core. It's all based on potential. Scottie is not a #1, not even close. IQ is not a #2, not even close. RJ is not a #3, not even close.

I think RJ is closer to a championship no.3 than the other two are of being a 1 or 2, respectively.

People just don't like poor defensive players. RJ will need to improve on that end for posters to think he is worth building a contender with. I think it's that simple.

I feel like most people are of the mind that Scottie does not fit the mould of a #1 on a championship team, I have seen very few people state he could be, and personally I think they are way off base. A #2, absolutely.

IQ in his current state is not a #2. But the point is that they have skill sets that could be, whether they reach those heights is an entirely different story.

Same way Terrence Ross doesn't fit the mould of a 3+D player because his 3 was alright and he had t rex arms. It doesn't make it a knock on the player, it's just the reality of the situation.

[KrazyP]

But this is exactly what everyone who is "complaining" is saying. People aren't complaining RJ just to complain, they are complaining about specific aspects of his game that indicate the same thing as those players traded, they don't have championship calibre skill sets.

Both IQ and Scottie do. RJ currently is DD with a considerably worse mid range game. I think most everyone who watched the DD years here can unequivocally say he does not possess any championship calibre skills outside his mid range game, and the value of that in the modern NBA is debatable.

The people "complaining" are simply saying the same thing that was said about the traded players, and they were right back then. Time will tell if that is the same case here, but it's not like there isn't precedent, people used to complain about DD's limitations all the time, and they were valid complaints cause they limited the ceiling of the team. So he was traded.

They have championship calibre skillsets, but they were upgraded for better players. A lot of players can play on championship teams. Kyle Lowry was almost traded, too. Creating hate campaigns about good players that last a long time in the NBA is stupid. On one team Porzingis or Pau Gasol are soft losers, that draw the ire of their fanbases until they're traded for peanuts, on another they're talented champs. There's fans that understand this and then there's fans that have nothing better to do but campaign endlessly against these players.

Right now, the Raptors have zero players that fit into a 1, 2, 3 championship core. It's all based on potential. Scottie is not a #1, not even close. IQ is not a #2, not even close. RJ is not a #3, not even close.

100% agreed. Theres a lot of premature analysis paralysis in this thread. The roster isnt anywhere close to complete and the players we have on hand are still young and developing so its far too soon to be definitively be saying this player or that player will not fit.

RJ is a talented player whose ability to get downhill and put pressure on defenses is elite, his 3pt shooting is adequate with potential to get better (35% career 3pt shooter on decent volume) and he's showing signs of passing ability. His defense is obviously a shortcoming but that may not be as big of an issue as people perceive depending on who the Raps eventually land as a long term starting C, 3&D wing and backup guard.

[Drakeem]

I don't fully get the Barrett disrespect happening rn in this thread.

I can understand critiquing a player; no one is above critique. But since coming to Toronto, this dude has shown some big flashes of being a REALLY good player one day, and is now showing out for Team Canada. By all accounts it's looking like he's turning some sort of corner on an increasing sample size.

But since day 1, some people have been (rightfully) hesitant about his abilities here, but no matter what he does to provide some sort of light at the end of the tunnel, no matter what great performances he has, it's just goal post moving to find a way to down play it.

You can be skeptical to some extent, but wow, part of being a sports fan is to be irrationally high on your own players. I still remember the days when we thought guys like Forbes had potential, or we were hoping Joey Graham would learn how to use his strength in a functional way. I have issues with Barrett that I hope he can fix too, but I'm not going to let that stop me from enjoying the fact that we got a Canadian player who's young and seems like he's ready to break out into a bigger role with us.

[REJECTEDBYCLARK]

It's just very difficult to buy into some of RJ's production. For instance I'm checking synergy and last year w/ NYK vs. TOR

NYK PPP Percentile:

Jump shots - 28th
Guarded C&S - 6th
Unguarded C&S - 85th
Dribble J - 9th
At rim - 9th
Runners - 41st
Transition - 87th
Overall Halfcourt O: 9th

TOR PPP Percentile:

Jump shots - 86th
Guarded C&S - 90th
Unguarded C&S - 36th
Dribble J - 22nd
At rim - 63rd
Runners - 85th
Transition - 42nd
Overall Halfcourt O: 71st

These are over very small samples. RJ's numbers are all over the place throughout his career and especially last season between teams. Even if you look at situational scoring last season he was abysmal at makes w/ 4 or less on shot clock (27th perc w/ TOR 13th w/ NYK) whereas in years past he had one pretty good season at that. It just points to someone who is incredibly inconsistent which is why Knicks fans had a bipolar relationship with him.

If you take the best of RJ when it comes to his entire NBA career you can conceivably imagine him becoming a great scorer but this is just in theory, it actually happening is just so unlikely. Then on top of that some of the PPP defensive metrics are just really, really bad and there's other stuff that sticks out like a sore thumb such as scoring vs. zone defense etc. RJ was also used a TON less as a P&R ball handler and dribble jump shooter with the Raptors (because he sucks at these things period) so them putting him in better situations (trans+handoffs+C&S) helped.

Superman RJ would mean:

23-24' NYK Transition Scoring: 87th
23-24' TOR Halfcourt Scoring: 83rd
21-22' NYK Last 4 Seconds of Clock Scoring: 73rd
23-24' TOR ISO scoring: 89th
23-24' TOR Cutting: 71st
23-24' TOR Jump shooting: 86th
23-24' NYK Unguarded C&S: 85th
23-24' TOR Runners: 85th
23-24' TOR At Rim: 63rd


The fact so many of these elements came from small samples and there was such a drastic change between NYK and TOR samples last year leads me to believe this has more to do with outperforming and not that RJ's numbers are the new norm upon which he is going to build - in short that there's a greater probability of regression to norm than maintaining production. I could be wrong, we'll see. It's just very difficult to rationally buy into RJ having instantly discovered himself halfway through a basketball season when you take the production markers into consideration which aren't all system/change of scenery related unless he's mentally weak and was letting Thibodeau abuse him.

[Tha Cynic]

Yup, this is DeMar DeRozan all over again.

To be clear, I like both players and badly want both to succeed but each falls into the same issues when it comes to championship roster. If the idea is being a very good regular season team, then both will be fine. For a championship, their salaries need to be allocated elsewhere. Someone mentioned this earlier, but RJ plays like a goto scorer and that's his best attribute, but neither is good enough to be the main guy from a team perspective. A great team won't have RJ Barrett as their goto scorer. They need the guy who takes RJs salary and place in the offense to be a great 3 point shooter off the ball, who can also defend well.

RJ with insane efficiency was barely a plus player. Any regression to the mean on offense with no defensive improvement significantly will make him a negative player.

Hopefully he's another huge development success for this team that developed Siakam and FVV because RJ will need huge development to be a plus player. Everyone here wants RJ to succeed. There's no way anyone can dislike the guy. But people see what he is and have doubt he goes against the conventional norm with his prototype. I badly want RJ to be a revelation because that means this team is going to surprise people. I want nothing but that.

Also to that person who hates on DeRozan regularly and is now having the exact opposite take on Barrett...

[Raps in 4]

I don't fully get the Barrett disrespect happening rn in this thread.

I can understand critiquing a player; no one is above critique. But since coming to Toronto, this dude has shown some big flashes of being a REALLY good player one day, and is now showing out for Team Canada. By all accounts it's looking like he's turning some sort of corner on an increasing sample size.

But since day 1, some people have been (rightfully) hesitant about his abilities here, but no matter what he does to provide some sort of light at the end of the tunnel, no matter what great performances he has, it's just goal post moving to find a way to down play it.

You can be skeptical to some extent, but wow, part of being a sports fan is to be irrationally high on your own players. I still remember the days when we thought guys like Forbes had potential, or we were hoping Joey Graham would learn how to use his strength in a functional way. I have issues with Barrett that I hope he can fix too, but I'm not going to let that stop me from enjoying the fact that we got a Canadian player who's young and seems like he's ready to break out into a bigger role with us.

People don't want to admit they were wrong.

I considered him a throw-in/salary filler in that trade. Since then, he's exceeded every expectation I had for him. Yeah, he's still a sieve on defense, but he's also way better than was advertised on offense. People need to enjoy the ride. This was a low risk/high reward trade, given his age and our current competitive position, where his salary doesn't matter to us since we aren't trying to win.

[bon]

DeMar at 23 was a worse scorer/shooter, rebounder, and passer than RJ at the same age. He also had 0 playoff experience and International experience at that point which can't be ignored regarding development either. Even ignoring all that RJ won't be miscast as the #1 option here with only one other guy capable of 17+ ppg like DeMar was. A big factor in his efficiency jump was how many of his looks were assisted. He plays well off others in this system just fine.

[Scase]

I don't fully get the Barrett disrespect happening rn in this thread.

I can understand critiquing a player; no one is above critique. But since coming to Toronto, this dude has shown some big flashes of being a REALLY good player one day, and is now showing out for Team Canada. By all accounts it's looking like he's turning some sort of corner on an increasing sample size.

But since day 1, some people have been (rightfully) hesitant about his abilities here, but no matter what he does to provide some sort of light at the end of the tunnel, no matter what great performances he has, it's just goal post moving to find a way to down play it.

You can be skeptical to some extent, but wow, part of being a sports fan is to be irrationally high on your own players. I still remember the days when we thought guys like Forbes had potential, or we were hoping Joey Graham would learn how to use his strength in a functional way. I have issues with Barrett that I hope he can fix too, but I'm not going to let that stop me from enjoying the fact that we got a Canadian player who's young and seems like he's ready to break out into a bigger role with us.

People don't want to admit they were wrong.

I considered him a throw-in/salary filler in that trade. Since then, he's exceeded every expectation I had for him. Yeah, he's still a sieve on defense, but he's also way better than was advertised on offense. People need to enjoy the ride. This was a low risk/high reward trade, given his age and our current competitive position, where his salary doesn't matter to us since we aren't trying to win.

My guy, it's been 32 games, how is that enough to prove anything one way or the other? Precious had a stretch of 25 games where he played great and shot 41% from 3, was that proving anyone wrong? No, and neither does this.

Let the dude have a solid season before taking victory laps, no one here is gonna be mad if he finds a way to do this for a whole season.

[bon]

My guy, it's been 32 games, how is that enough to prove anything one way or the other? Precious had a stretch of 25 games where he played great and shot 41% from 3, was that proving anyone wrong? No, and neither does this.

Let the dude have a solid season before taking victory laps, no one here is gonna be mad if he finds a way to do this for a whole season.

Apples and oranges. Precious went on a hot streak. RJ has functionally been used differently than before. I don't expect him to repeat the 62 TS% over a whole season but he definitely will continue to be much more efficient here than he was in NYK.

[Raps in 4]

I don't fully get the Barrett disrespect happening rn in this thread.

I can understand critiquing a player; no one is above critique. But since coming to Toronto, this dude has shown some big flashes of being a REALLY good player one day, and is now showing out for Team Canada. By all accounts it's looking like he's turning some sort of corner on an increasing sample size.

But since day 1, some people have been (rightfully) hesitant about his abilities here, but no matter what he does to provide some sort of light at the end of the tunnel, no matter what great performances he has, it's just goal post moving to find a way to down play it.

You can be skeptical to some extent, but wow, part of being a sports fan is to be irrationally high on your own players. I still remember the days when we thought guys like Forbes had potential, or we were hoping Joey Graham would learn how to use his strength in a functional way. I have issues with Barrett that I hope he can fix too, but I'm not going to let that stop me from enjoying the fact that we got a Canadian player who's young and seems like he's ready to break out into a bigger role with us.

People don't want to admit they were wrong.

I considered him a throw-in/salary filler in that trade. Since then, he's exceeded every expectation I had for him. Yeah, he's still a sieve on defense, but he's also way better than was advertised on offense. People need to enjoy the ride. This was a low risk/high reward trade, given his age and our current competitive position, where his salary doesn't matter to us since we aren't trying to win.

My guy, it's been 32 games, how is that enough to prove anything one way or the other? Precious had a stretch of 25 games where he played great and shot 41% from 3, was that proving anyone wrong? No, and neither does this.

Let the dude have a solid season before taking victory laps, no one here is gonna be mad if he finds a way to do this for a whole season.

My point is that this constant, ongoing discussion about how RJ is actually, secretly still trash isn't productive. It's like people want him to revert to being a bum so they can feel vindicated. He was trash before the trade. He was no longer trash (on offense) after the trade, thanks to very real changes to his game.

Will he revert to being a bum? Maybe. But it's also entirely possible that he turned a corner. Just enjoy the ride. There are plenty of things to complain about with this team, but at the moment, RJ isn't one of them.

[Raps in 4]

Yup, this is DeMar DeRozan all over again.

To be clear, I like both players and badly want both to succeed but each falls into the same issues when it comes to championship roster. If the idea is being a very good regular season team, then both will be fine. For a championship, their salaries need to be allocated elsewhere. Someone mentioned this earlier, but RJ plays like a goto scorer and that's his best attribute, but neither is good enough to be the main guy from a team perspective. A great team won't have RJ Barrett as their goto scorer. They need the guy who takes RJs salary and place in the offense to be a great 3 point shooter off the ball, who can also defend well.

RJ with insane efficiency was barely a plus player. Any regression to the mean on offense with no defensive improvement significantly will make him a negative player.

Hopefully he's another huge development success for this team that developed Siakam and FVV because RJ will need huge development to be a plus player. Everyone here wants RJ to succeed. There's no way anyone can dislike the guy. But people see what he is and have doubt he goes against the conventional norm with his prototype. I badly want RJ to be a revelation because that means this team is going to surprise people. I want nothing but that.

Also to that person who hates on DeRozan regularly and is now having the exact opposite take on Barrett...

It's only DeMar all over again if Scottie doesn't develop into a primary scorer.

Also, the way we're using RJ right now is fundamentally different to how we used DeMar. ~50% of DeMar's shots came from long 2 range. With us, only 3% of RJ's shots came from that range (even in NYK, he didn't spend much time there). We are using him primarily as a slasher, rather than giving him the ball and letting him jack up a contested shot from 16+ feet. We've even cut down on his 3PAs because he obviously can't hit them at a reliable clip. We're using him to his limited strengths, and it led to solid offensive production last season.

If we have to rely on RJ to get us buckets, then we'll be in trouble. But that isn't what we expect from him. If he can be to Scottie what Brown/Gordon were to Jokic, we have ourselves a useful player. Again, everything goes back to Scottie. Whatever happens with this core is entirely tied to his development. If he doesn't pan out, then this core isn't going to do anything. But as things stand, I'm totally fine with what RJ provides and seeing what we can do with that.

[Chandan]

I think there is a path to success for RJ, though not as the top 2 guy. I feel he has higher mental toughness than DDR and he could come in clutch like manu often did. The franchise outcome
depends on the evolution of Scottie and IQ. Both of those 2 have to hit their marks for this team to advance to the elite stage. And RJ too, he needs to keep up with this efficiency.

[Scase]

People don't want to admit they were wrong.

I considered him a throw-in/salary filler in that trade. Since then, he's exceeded every expectation I had for him. Yeah, he's still a sieve on defense, but he's also way better than was advertised on offense. People need to enjoy the ride. This was a low risk/high reward trade, given his age and our current competitive position, where his salary doesn't matter to us since we aren't trying to win.

My guy, it's been 32 games, how is that enough to prove anything one way or the other? Precious had a stretch of 25 games where he played great and shot 41% from 3, was that proving anyone wrong? No, and neither does this.

Let the dude have a solid season before taking victory laps, no one here is gonna be mad if he finds a way to do this for a whole season.

My point is that this constant, ongoing discussion about how RJ is actually, secretly still trash isn't productive. It's like people want him to revert to being a bum so they can feel vindicated. He was trash before the trade. He was no longer trash (on offense) after the trade, thanks to very real changes to his game.

Will he revert to being a bum? Maybe. But it's also entirely possible that he turned a corner. Just enjoy the ride. There are plenty of things to complain about with this team, but at the moment, RJ isn't one of them.

No one is complaining about him and wishing for him to be bad again, they are just saying pump the brakes it's been 30 games.

[HumbleRen]

I think there is a path to success for RJ, though not as the top 2 guy. I feel he has higher mental toughness than DDR and he could come in clutch like manu often did. The franchise outcome does depends on the evolution of Scottie and IQ. Both of those 2 have to hit their marks for this team to advantage to the elite stage. And RJ too, he needs to keep up with this efficiency.

I think he can be a significantly better player in the playoffs than DD.

His physicality and how he relishes contact will help him immensely in a playoff environment.

[The Duke]

- Barnes is a #2, not a playoff #1
- RJ looks like he might be a better playoff player than Demar. Exceeding my expectations since we acquired him. Considering his lower defensive figures, maybe a #4 all things considered.
- IQ I’m still struggling to figure him out, I can hope for a playoff #3 eventually

- Conclusion: We need to find an actual #1 in the 2025 draft, to do anything in the playoffs