Shams: Raps acquire Ingram for Brown + Olynyk + IND 1st

[djsunyc]

if you're not open to the idea of it not being a big deal then there's no point with the back and forth.

Explain the path to being better than average, much less very successful, by overspending (relative to production) in a cap system and not hitting on the majority of picks.

no.

[Tripod]

Exactly.

Would Harden have gotten 40+million this summer as a UFA? No. Kyrie? No. Lebron? Hmm. Etc...

The money wasn't there for UFA's but it was there by owning their rights and re-signing them.

Ummm, yeah, that's the whole point - you don't have to bid against yourself, especially not for a guy like BI coming off a major injury.

Wow, they didn’t bid against themselves. Pelicans were offering more, Hawks were going to give BI a similar deal. He chose us.

We do not get BI in free agency. We wouldn’t have the money to get him.

This isn't complicated...lol.

But I guess some people think it would be good business to trade for BI...then offer him 20 million because team had no money in UFA.

That will lead to great relationships with agents and other players seeing that.

[brownbobcat]

Ummm, yeah, that's the whole point - you don't have to bid against yourself, especially not for a guy like BI coming off a major injury.

Wow, they didn’t bid against themselves. Pelicans were offering more, Hawks were going to give BI a similar deal. He chose us.

We do not get BI in free agency. We wouldn’t have the money to get him.

This isn't complicated...lol.

But I guess some people think it would be good business to trade for BI...then offer him 20 million because team had no money in UFA.

That will lead to great relationships with agents and other players seeing that.

1. A lot of numbers exist between $20M and $120M
2. These "great relationships" have led to nothing but overpriced contracts for so-so players, so why does it matter?

[ATLTimekeeper]

The risk of waiting for free agency is he takes someone else's lowball, and then you're out the trade assets. While losing Randle would have hurt the Wolves, they did get some value for him this season. He's 31 so he's being paid for his decline, whereas Ingram is still in his prime production years. Imagine trading for Ingram and sticking to your guns and he bolts without ever playing a game?

Are you familiar with the concept of a sunk cost? You don't have to throw good money after bad.

I'd say that's either a risk worth taking or else just a dumb trade that shouldn't have been made in the first place. I highly question the characterization of Randle being in decline and Ingram being in his prime when it's the latter that just missed 75% of the season.

Turner just signed for $108/4 and he's a year and a half older.

It's not bad money. The trade was a bargain, and the contract was still about what a player like that makes. Just because it's not a steal or market value doesn't mean it's not a contract he can't produce to.

The expectation of a 31 year old is that they will be entering their decline years, yes. They tend to get less on the open market than players entering their prime. When Julius Randle played 46 games in 2024, was he past his prime? Your reasoning here is off. The Raptors expect Ingram to play, and if he can't it's a waste of money. In the end I'd rather have Ingram over Randle the next 3 years. The upside is worth bidding against yourself.

[Tripod]

Wow, they didn’t bid against themselves. Pelicans were offering more, Hawks were going to give BI a similar deal. He chose us.

We do not get BI in free agency. We wouldn’t have the money to get him.

This isn't complicated...lol.

But I guess some people think it would be good business to trade for BI...then offer him 20 million because team had no money in UFA.

That will lead to great relationships with agents and other players seeing that.

1. A lot of numbers exist between $20M and $120M
2. These "great relationships" have led to nothing but overpriced contracts for so-so players, so why does it matter?

1. Hard to have a legit conversation with someone who just states "I don't believe those reports" when they go against his opinion.

2. People have shown over and over that the Raps "overpriced" contracts almost always end up good.

3. In what world is a potential 24 point guy, a so-so player?

[raincityraptors]

I live in Texas so New Orleans is close.

People here love BI and think Toronto got him for a steal.

American media is just that, media.

Hardcore ball fans think BI will make that deal a value deal in his prime.

The deal is high risk, high reward. If he isn't injured for most of it, it will look like a great deal.

We have the kind of staff in place that makes it worth it for us to take such gambles.

I'm satisfied with the return for Pascal.

BI is the best player on this team and an All Star if he stays healthy.

Media folks have just forgotten how great BI is and this year he has a chip on his shoulder.

If health doesn't hinder him, he's going to be a dominant force in the East this coming season.

[tsherkin]

3. In what world is a potential 24 point guy, a so-so player?

Not that this necessarily applies to Ingram, but raw volume isn't necessarily the best measure of player quality. There are various situations were someone could score 24 and they wouldn't be all that hot. You'd have to look at the remaining breadth of their game.

Back to BI, because he has range, semi-reasonable to decent efficiency (depending on the year/health) and pretty good passing, though, it doesn't feel appropriate to call him "so so" unless the league is nothing but superstars, "so so" players and crap. Which I don't find to be all that accurate.

[tsherkin]

If health doesn't hinder him, he's going to be a dominant force in the East this coming season.

It'd be pretty sweet if we got a couple of healthy-ish seasons from him, man.

[brownbobcat]

1. Hard to have a legit conversation with someone who just states "I don't believe those reports" when they go against his opinion.

"Reports" are not gospel, I'd say "rumours" are a far more accurate description. And my opinion is based on the facts of the situation, common sense plus a public statement from his own agent.

2. People have shown over and over that the Raps "overpriced" contracts almost always end up good.

When they're good, I'll call them good. When they're bad, I'll call them bad - not complicated.

3. In what world is a potential 24 point guy, a so-so player?

RJ Barrett is a 21 point guy and younger and healthier - should he get $40M/yr too? Brandon Ingram is a decent player - he is "so-so" as a lead scorer and certainly not at $40M/yr. If that's the kind of fruit borne of these "great relationships" with agents, I'll pass.

And as I said elsewhere, the bigger problem is the aggregate situation and not an individual player. You can live with Ingram's contract (if he's healthy, which is a big 'If') if you're getting great value-for-dollar production from other guys. But they aren't, and they're paying top dollar for their talent.

[Tha Cynic]

You kind of have to look at this trade from an overall team perspective.

Raptors badly need 3 good point shooting on volume (something Ingram has already talked about being able to do more of), and someone who can be the "go-to" guy in crunch, or at least another guy who can be the "go-to" guy.

Injuries aside, Ingram does this for you.

Barnes struggled on offense last year, but has shown in the past that he plays better when he's not the lead offensive guy. This will move every single player down a peg in the offense, which is not a bad thing, even if someone makes big improvements and makes them a more viable weapon on offense.

From a team perspective this is a good gamble to take.

Heck, this is the kind of gamble Indiana took with Siakam when they traded for him (trade for a guy on the last year of his contract and sign him immediately so that he didn't test free agency).

What exactly was the alternative that makes people hate this trade so much (those few who do)?

Injuries will make or break this signing.

[Godaddycurse]

What exactly was the alternative that makes people hate this trade so much (those few who do)?

Keep tanking and be like Utah Jazz (fall a bunch of spots in the lottery)

[Tha Cynic]

What exactly was the alternative that makes people hate this trade so much (those few who do)?

Keep tanking and be like Utah Jazz (fall a bunch of spots in the lottery)

So we want to strive to be a team that tanks (ends up with the worst position for their lottery odds), drafts a guy who didn't want to go there, and has no other accomplishments to speak of recently?

[tsherkin]

Barnes struggled on offense last year, but has shown in the past that he plays better when he's not the lead offensive guy.

When was that?

I don't mean to be a dick, I'm just curious which season you're looking at and which part of offense you're measuring when you say that so I can arrange my thoughts for a substantive reply.

[Godaddycurse]

Barnes struggled on offense last year, but has shown in the past that he plays better when he's not the lead offensive guy.

When was that?

I don't mean to be a dick, I'm just curious which season you're looking at and which part of offense you're measuring when you say that so I can arrange my thoughts for a substantive reply.

IIRC he played better last year pre OG/Siakam trade. percentages started tanking after those 2 were traded

[tsherkin]

IIRC he played better last year pre Siakam trade. percentages started tanking after siakam was traded

If that's the case, it's entirely about his 3pt shooting. Which seems largely a hot streak anyway, so I don't know if that's a strong correlation. Because his play on offense otherwise didn't appear to change much. Though it would be worthwhile to see how many unassisted ATB 3s he was taking before and after January 15th, because his 3P% REALLY tanked out, like even below his normal level, so that might be an interesting linkage.

[Tripod]

1. Hard to have a legit conversation with someone who just states "I don't believe those reports" when they go against his opinion.

"Reports" are not gospel, I'd say "rumours" are a far more accurate description. And my opinion is based on the facts of the situation, common sense plus a public statement from his own agent.

2. People have shown over and over that the Raps "overpriced" contracts almost always end up good.

When they're good, I'll call them good. When they're bad, I'll call them bad - not complicated.

3. In what world is a potential 24 point guy, a so-so player?

RJ Barrett is a 21 point guy and younger and healthier - should he get $40M/yr too? Brandon Ingram is a decent player - he is "so-so" as a lead scorer and certainly not at $40M/yr. If that's the kind of fruit borne of these "great relationships" with agents, I'll pass.

And as I said elsewhere, the bigger problem is the aggregate situation and not an individual player. You can live with Ingram's contract (if he's healthy, which is a big 'If') if you're getting great value-for-dollar production from other guys. But they aren't, and they're paying top dollar for their talent.

So again...when you choose to just not believe something REASONABLE, it's arguing in bad faith.

Ingram wanted 50 million in the summer. Pels offered less. They offered 40×4 in Feb, he declined and decided to look elsewhere where both Raps and Atl were willing to bet on him bouncing back, especially at such a low acquiring cost.

Reality is Siakam got 3 1sts for us and makes 45 million next year. BI cost us 1 1st and cost us 38 million next year. That's a good trade off...and the only reason BI isn't getting Siakam's contract IS because of his health. Hell, OG makes more this coming year. BI isn't a top 30 paid guy in the league.

Again, just because you say a deal is a bad one doesn't make it gospel.

[anotherhomer]

1. Hard to have a legit conversation with someone who just states "I don't believe those reports" when they go against his opinion.

"Reports" are not gospel, I'd say "rumours" are a far more accurate description. And my opinion is based on the facts of the situation, common sense plus a public statement from his own agent.

2. People have shown over and over that the Raps "overpriced" contracts almost always end up good.

When they're good, I'll call them good. When they're bad, I'll call them bad - not complicated.

3. In what world is a potential 24 point guy, a so-so player?

RJ Barrett is a 21 point guy and younger and healthier - should he get $40M/yr too? Brandon Ingram is a decent player - he is "so-so" as a lead scorer and certainly not at $40M/yr. If that's the kind of fruit borne of these "great relationships" with agents, I'll pass.

And as I said elsewhere, the bigger problem is the aggregate situation and not an individual player. You can live with Ingram's contract (if he's healthy, which is a big 'If') if you're getting great value-for-dollar production from other guys. But they aren't, and they're paying top dollar for their talent.

So again...when you choose to just not believe something REASONABLE, it's arguing in bad faith.

Ingram wanted 50 million in the summer. Pels offered less. They offered 40×4 in Feb, he declined and decided to look elsewhere where both Raps and Atl were willing to bet on him bouncing back, especially at such a low acquiring cost.

Reality is Siakam got 3 1sts for us and makes 45 million next year. BI cost us 1 1st and cost us 38 million next year. That's a good trade off...and the only reason BI isn't getting Siakam's contract IS because of his health. Hell, OG makes more this coming year. BI isn't a top 30 paid guy in the league.

Again, just because you say a deal is a bad one doesn't make it gospel.

it's true, he wanted 50M and rejected the 40M. The market changed and he was now willing to go for 40ish M but Pelicans no longer wanted him apparently since Trey and herb were starting to emerge....so raps swoop in

[bluerap23]

Can't wait for BI to score 25/5/5 on 50/40/90 this year.

[Tha Cynic]

IIRC he played better last year pre Siakam trade. percentages started tanking after siakam was traded

If that's the case, it's entirely about his 3pt shooting. Which seems largely a hot streak anyway, so I don't know if that's a strong correlation. Because his play on offense otherwise didn't appear to change much. Though it would be worthwhile to see how many unassisted ATB 3s he was taking before and after January 15th, because his 3P% REALLY tanked out, like even below his normal level, so that might be an interesting linkage.

So the only way to really respond to you is by accumulating a couple more years of data since all of the good play can be attributed to fluke play. I know you are on a mission.

Lets chat in a couple of years.

[ForeverTFC]

Wow, they didn’t bid against themselves. Pelicans were offering more, Hawks were going to give BI a similar deal. He chose us.

We do not get BI in free agency. We wouldn’t have the money to get him.

This isn't complicated...lol.

But I guess some people think it would be good business to trade for BI...then offer him 20 million because team had no money in UFA.

That will lead to great relationships with agents and other players seeing that.

1. A lot of numbers exist between $20M and $120M
2. These "great relationships" have led to nothing but overpriced contracts for so-so players, so why does it matter?

You realize the deal was hammered out before the trade happened right? The number was agreed to and the Raptors moved forward. Ingram can easily nix the trade by saying "I won't re-sign".