Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7

[5DOM]

I don't think people deny Bismack Biyombo can be a good shotblocker because that's an innate ability. The real question is what's his nose for the ball level? Can he go get rebounds like Kanter or be in the right position? Positioning is half the battle when Dwight Howard or Andrew Bynum are posting you up. If you're under the basket it doesn't matter if you're Dikembe Mutombo.

What do you mean "Can he go get rebounds like Kanter"?
I wouldn't be surprised at all if he's a better rebounder than Kanter considering he leads the ACB in rebounds per minute. Actually I'd be surprised and disappointed if he isn't

Biyombo is also one of the best rebounders in the ACB for many of the same reasons already mentioned. His length, aggressiveness, toughness, timing and athleticism are all great rebounding qualities. He has no problem going out of his area for loose balls, especially on the offensive glass.

Kanter is the best rebounder out of the 3 euros. And its not even a question.
Hes like Kevin Love, he will get every rebound although he is not very athletic or long.
For example, Jonas V now is one of the best rebounders in europe per minute and he averaged "just" 10 rebounds per game in the U18 championship. Kanter averaged 16 rebounds. So he had 6 rebounds more than Val although Kanter had a guy named Furkan Aldemir on his team who now is one of the best rebounders in the turkish league.
Also Kanter had 13 rebounds in the hoop summit game in less minutes than Biyombo against Sullinger. Biyombo had 10 rebounds in more minutes.

So you are basing this on a U18 Euro tournament performance from 3 years ago which Biyombo didn't even play because he's not European and a Hoops Summit game? As for Valanciunas, isn't he the one who improved significantly every year whereas we don't know if Kanter did because he basically didn't play for a year?

[ATLTimekeeper]

This draft is turning into quite the poopoo platter.

It could be the draft of the past decade in terms of lack of top tier talent (2000 being the last with this poor of a crop).

I hate to say it, but the Clips giving up their pick in this year's draft to dump B-Diddy looks like one of the best moves of the year.

I'm not worried about the top of this draft at all. There's guys with flags, for sure, but most of the guys near the top have the kind of qualities that tend to maximize potential. There aren't any headcases, softies, lazy bones, dumb-asses, fatties. These are the kind of qualities that tend to make busts.

Sure there may not be busts that are out of the league by the end of the rookie contract, but even at the top end of this draft we are looking at tweeners, combo guards and unproven projects. Good 3rd options and role players, but really no special talents.

Maybe. We'll see. The "unproven" criticism works both ways. We haven't had a strong look at how good some of these kids can be. Kanter could very well have dominated the college game. Irving could have made his case as the next CP3.

You mentioned 2000, which was laden with busts, and I basically made the point that the top of this draft has less bust potential. It's pretty rare that a draft will provide multiple "special talents," anyway. Look at most of the recent drafts, and see how many 1st options were picked top 5. I'd say that Williams and Irving both have that potential, to be the best player on a good team. Then I'd say there's some guys that could have Noah/Horford-type impacts. That's not a bad top 5, IMO.

[Raps in 4]

So you are basing this on a U18 Euro tournament performance from 3 years ago which Biyombo didn't even play because he's not European and a Hoops Summit game? As for Valanciunas, isn't he the one who improved significantly every year whereas we don't know if Kanter did because he basically didn't play for a year?

Kanter has been drinking and banging broads all year.

[Yeezus_]

BIsmack Biyombo, from what I read, seems like a Noah 2.0. Wouldn't mind that with the third pick at all.

He speaks five languages fluently (English, Spanish, French and two Congolese dialects)...damn.

[5DOM]

I honestly wouldn't mind using a top 3 pick on a slightly better version of Serge Ibaka who can play the 5 if that's what Biyombo is projected to be.

- Biyombo is longer than Ibaka
- Biyombo is 20lbs heavier than Ibaka was while still having a body fat of 4.3%
- They've had very similar stats in the ACB (Biyombo had superior block numbers though)
- All this as an 18 y/o* instead of the 19 y/o Ibaka was when he entered the draft.

Ibaka's numbers in the NBA?
Per 36: 13points/10rebounds/3blocks/58TS% with good D

[dagger]

I honestly wouldn't mind using a top 3 pick on a slightly better version of Serge Ibaka who can play the 5 if that's what Biyombo is projected to be.

- Biyombo is longer than Ibaka
- Biyombo is 20lbs heavier than Ibaka was while still having a body fat of 4.3%
- They've had very similar stats in the ACB (Biyombo had superior block numbers though)
- All this as an 18 y/o* instead of the 19 y/o Ibaka was when he entered the draft.

Ibaka's numbers in the NBA?
Per 36: 13points/10rebounds/3blocks/58TS% with good D

Aside from whether Biyombo would be a rich man's Serge Ibaka, the question would be whether he's the right complement to Ed Davis/Amir Johnson, neither of whom are post players, able to create their own offence, etc. Biyombo has to be a solid post defender to get into the discussion. His hops are nice, but Davis is a good shotblocker, of similar height and very good reach. We'd probably be better with Kanter, who can provide a more physical presence against seven footers and especially the big-body bigs who would likely give Biyombo a hard time in the post, as they did whenever Davis tried to guard them. I'm not saying we should draft Kanter, I have a lot of questions about him I can't and won't be able to answer prior to the draft. But in terms of conventional team building, I would want someone who can body up with bigger guys, and let Davis/Johnson provide weak side help D and shotblocking.

[Mediocrity]

So if we end up with the number 1 pick, is it a consensous that we take Irving? I personally don't see the hype surronding him, so what someone who has acutally seen him play tell me why he gets the hype he receives? He doesn't seem extrememly athletic, which oviously doesn't matter, but it is increasingly becoming important at the PG position. Are the 11 games he played enough to extrapolate onto an entire season? Will he have any nagging injuires potentially?

[CanadaB-Ball]

I like the one posters idea of getting Wiiliams (assuming he's available) and then aquiring a pick in order to draft Biyombo.

That would give us great defense in the low post with Davis, Amir and Biyombo and even Wiiliams depending on how they setup the defense, as well as great mid-range and post offense with DeRozan, Williams and Bayless as well as Davis potentially. At that point we just need some outside shooting, which hopefully DeRozan could develop.

[phailing101]

I don't see how Biyombo fits our roster. I can't see him legitimately playing a lot of C in his career unless he measures out better than I anticipate.

Kanter is the best BIG but Irving/Williams fills a need as well.

Looking forward to getting these guys through some workouts.....especially Kanter.

[Dalek]

Biyombo is a better prospect to me because we know we get the NBA defense, length and athleticism and most importantly desire. Think of Amare Stoudamire coming into the league. He had no offensive game other than dunks. As long as this guy can play pick and roll he will do fine.

I know people think Kanter gives us a big body, but he has no lift and he has pretty average length. People will just shoot over him. Plus, we do not need the low post offense any way. We have great scoring already.

I think because people are wanting to consider this as a flat draft we could get into the trap of picking based on need. That would be a disaster. We can trade Amir or Ed or Bargs if we have surplus bigs. To me, no one is untouchable.

[LyNx]

Looks like ESPN has us taking Williams if we land #1. Check out the lotto simulator. Apologies if already posted.

[JamesNaismith]

Aside from whether Biyombo would be a rich man's Serge Ibaka, the question would be whether he's the right complement to Ed Davis/Amir Johnson, neither of whom are post players, able to create their own offence, etc. Biyombo has to be a solid post defender to get into the discussion. His hops are nice, but Davis is a good shotblocker, of similar height and very good reach. We'd probably be better with Kanter, who can provide a more physical presence against seven footers and especially the big-body bigs who would likely give Biyombo a hard time in the post, as they did whenever Davis tried to guard them.

I made mention of this several times in this thread so the point might fall on deaf ears so to speak but the strong arguement made to retort it was his arms cure everything.....

Ed has shown flashes of improved post scoring but he's certainly not at the point of being considered a "skilled" big man as a place like draftexpress suggests would be needed and I would agree with. With Biyombo teams can pretty much leave him on defence to double and Ed isn't that "skilled" enough to warrant one....then look further out to our perimeter and it just gets worse.

But you are so beloved on here lol so who knows someone might actually be forced to acknowledge it.

[REM]

If we stay at 3, Kemba for me. Just do not trust any of the other players. This draft looks so weak. I think Kemba is a sure fire solid player and probable starter for a good portion of his career. Love his leadership and intangibles. I just worry, if he can be a true point guard.

[Silk Wilkes]

I honestly wouldn't mind using a top 3 pick on a slightly better version of Serge Ibaka who can play the 5 if that's what Biyombo is projected to be.

- Biyombo is longer than Ibaka
- Biyombo is 20lbs heavier than Ibaka was while still having a body fat of 4.3%
- They've had very similar stats in the ACB (Biyombo had superior block numbers though)
- All this as an 18 y/o* instead of the 19 y/o Ibaka was when he entered the draft.

Ibaka's numbers in the NBA?
Per 36: 13points/10rebounds/3blocks/58TS% with good D

Aside from whether Biyombo would be a rich man's Serge Ibaka, the question would be whether he's the right complement to Ed Davis/Amir Johnson, neither of whom are post players, able to create their own offence, etc. Biyombo has to be a solid post defender to get into the discussion. His hops are nice, but Davis is a good shotblocker, of similar height and very good reach. We'd probably be better with Kanter, who can provide a more physical presence against seven footers and especially the big-body bigs who would likely give Biyombo a hard time in the post, as they did whenever Davis tried to guard them. I'm not saying we should draft Kanter, I have a lot of questions about him I can't and won't be able to answer prior to the draft. But in terms of conventional team building, I would want someone who can body up with bigger guys, and let Davis/Johnson provide weak side help D and shotblocking.

This has been said 100 times already and the Biyombo supporters disregard it as us drafting for need as opposed to the BPA. Well, if it's a toss-up between two guys it's not drafting for need if one guy fits the roster better. That guy is Kanter, end of story.

As for the poster who suggested Williams + Biyombo. If that were possible it would be a better option. Like I said, compliment. Williams provides that scoring threat to subsidize Biyombo's shortcomings offensively. However, without Williams we just become a joke offensively by drafting Biyombo.

Now, obviously all of this conversation changes if we get a top-2 pick in which case the choice is clearly Irving or Williams bar none.

[Strategist1]

However, without Williams we just become a joke offensively by drafting Biyombo.

Now, obviously all of this conversation changes if we get a top-2 pick in which case the choice is clearly Irving or Williams bar none.

Again, the Raptors have tradionally been a failure at defence. I don't see the need for another scoring front court player especially if Bargnani is here. Lets face it, as much as we all like to dream, the odds are, Bargnani will be here long term.

Anyways, Ben Wallace in his career averaged 6 pts, 10 rebounds, 2 blocks a game. (Of course in his prime years, he averaged higher). He was a fit for a team that didn't need his offence.

Lets say we have Bayless, Derozan, and lets hope we luck out and draft Barnes in 2012. That's enough scoring in the 1,2,3 spots. Raptors would just need Ed/Amir to score 20-25 points, and we'd need a strong 6th man to round out the roster.

Kanter may have impressive seasons earlier on his career, but I'm in doubt if he can remain productive over the long term. Injuries are a concern.

[Silk Wilkes]

However, without Williams we just become a joke offensively by drafting Biyombo.

Now, obviously all of this conversation changes if we get a top-2 pick in which case the choice is clearly Irving or Williams bar none.

Again, the Raptors have tradionally been a failure at defence. I don't see the need for another scoring front court player especially if Bargnani is here. Lets face it, as much as we all like to dream, the odds are, Bargnani will be here long term.

Anyways, Ben Wallace in his career averaged 6 pts, 10 rebounds, 2 blocks a game. (Of course in his prime years, he averaged higher). He was a fit for a team that didn't need his offence.

Lets say we have Bayless, Derozan, and lets hope we luck out and draft Barnes in 2012. That's enough scoring in the 1,2,3 spots. Raptors would just need Ed/Amir to score 20-25 points, and we'd need a strong 6th man to round out the roster.

Kanter may have impressive seasons earlier on his career, but I'm in doubt if he can remain productive over the long term. Injuries are a concern.

You're still on that Ben Wallace tip huh? Let me ask you this then. Where's Chauncey, Rip, Tayshaun and Rasheed to substitute for the scoring loss? Did you ever watch Ben Wallace after he left that cushy situation in Detroit? So you're pretty much banking on luck if you pick Biyombo? You want to luck into Harrison Barnes?

As for Kanter, his knees are no question. They used to be, but not anymore that's a weak argument. He compliments Ed Davis perfectly. The Raps don't need to have shot blockers coming from every angle in the paint if you have a guy who can hold his own against beasts like D12 or Bynum. You let Enes defend his man 1 on 1 and let Ed/Amir provide him with weak side shot blocking. Enes then returns the favour with weakside defense for Ed/Amir.

[arbsn]

wtf @ not drafting irving with #1 pick
wtf wtf wtf

Im not even feeling Dwill I think he might flop if WE draft him because I think he's a three in a fours body and we HAVE that already and we have like 3 guys who would be ahead of him in the big man rotation'

[Reef]

As for Kanter, his knees are no question. They used to be, but not anymore that's a weak argument. He compliments Ed Davis perfectly. The Raps don't need to have shot blockers coming from every angle in the paint if you have a guy who can hold his own against beasts like D12 or Bynum. You let Enes defend his man 1 on 1 and let Ed/Amir provide him with weak side shot blocking. Enes then returns the favour with weakside defense for Ed/Amir.

This.

[Strategist1]

You're still on that Ben Wallace tip huh? Let me ask you this then. Where's Chauncey, Rip, Tayshaun and Rasheed to substitute for the scoring loss? Did you ever watch Ben Wallace after he left that cushy situation in Detroit? So you're pretty much banking on luck if you pick Biyombo? You want to luck into Harrison Barnes?

As for Kanter, his knees are no question. They used to be, but not anymore that's a weak argument. He compliments Ed Davis perfectly. The Raps don't need to have shot blockers coming from every angle in the paint if you have a guy who can hold his own against beasts like D12 or Bynum. You let Enes defend his man 1 on 1 and let Ed/Amir provide him with weak side shot blocking. Enes then returns the favour with weakside defense for Ed/Amir.

I'm not saying, Biyombo will be become Ben Wallace. I'm just saying considerable offense in the front court isn't essential. Look at Boston this year, KG is proving 10-15 points a game at the PF spot. JO and Davis are providing the rest of the Centre offence. The rest of the scoring is done by the Allen, Pierce, Rondo, etc...

With that Detroit team, you had billups, hamilton, prince, and then rasheed who was good for 10-15 points a game.

It depends on the makeup of your team. Like I said earlier, its a lot easier to find offence in other areas of the team (1-to 4 spots) , then find a centre who can significantly impact a game on the defensive end. Its not just blocking shots, but altering shots on the help side.

[Silk Wilkes]

You forget those Detroit and these Boston teams have 5 guys on the court who play both ends of the court. Rip Hamilton's, Chauncey Billups', Tayshaun Prince's, Rasheed Wallace's, Rajon Rondo's, Ray Allen's and Paul Pierce's don't just grow on trees.