2011 Synergy D-stat rankings - Derozan D-stats pg. 11

Too Late Crew · Post #141 » by **Too Late Crew** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:37 pm

I think the "pick on a player" is right on point. Its not just a bash Bargs thing either. Lakers opponents ran 1-5 pcik and roll over and over and over and over..why? Becuase of Shaqs complete inability/unwillingness to hedge out on pick and roll. He simply would not come out and the ball handler would get open jumper after open jumper. This was an MVP level player..a guy no one wanted to challange in the paint. Yet teams would pick on him as a sure fire scoring opportunity.

But he was a decent interior defender/shotblocker, a great rebounder and spectacular offensive force..so you live with pathetic Pick and roll D.

If a guy is a terrible interior /help deender, a horrific rebounder and a mediocre at best offensive player what reason do you have to "live with" teams picking on him? Can't think of any.

dacrusha · Post #142 » by **dacrusha** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:45 pm

BorisDK1 wrote:
dacrusha wrote:Not sure where you got .552% stop% from because he was horrendous on D last year as well.

You're championing the 'Bargs sucks at D' wagon a couple years late.

Is the world full of greys as well as black and white? Yes.

Bargnani's world of defense is just brown, as in s h i t.

It was s h i t t y last year and it's s h i t t y this year.

Indeed · Post #143 » by **Indeed** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:00 pm

sanity wrote:Is one-on-one defense in the post something players go out of their way to be good at, or is it (mostly) from covering your man and being in right spot? I can see how perimeter defense is crucial and something a lot of players struggle with, but one-on-one defense in the post seems more like just finding your position between your cover and the rim. Bargnani has been doing that relatively well early in the season and even last season, but in the past few months he does struggle even with that. He can cover other finesse/jump-shooting bigs pretty well from 12' out, but in the post he rarely holds his ground

The difference of guarding in the post and perimeter is, you don't need to be quick at running/moving backward or making crossover (changing direction or speed), but you need to be physical and stay in front of your man. There is no help defense, since both of you are so close to the basket.

It is more than being at the right position, but it is easier than defending perimeter, since most bigs can't do crossover or change direction.
Meanwhile, Bargnani has been holding his ground lately. The key thing is he is not focused and perhaps tired.

Indeed · Post #144 » by **Indeed** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:13 pm

DreamTeam09 wrote:QUESTION......

If Bargnani is a good/decent 1 on 1 defender, and even the posters who really dislike his game can admit that he is a decent/good 1 on 1 defender, and stats show that he is, why are we putting more stock into help defence??? I mean if every individual player could effectively give up less points than their man, help defence becomes less & less important. Seems like ppl are nit picking when it comes to him and I can't understand for the love of what reason. When I play basketball, my goal is to not let my man score, thats really all you can do out there. You can't worry about ur man not scoring, and the point gaurd, and every other position on the floor. Yea obviously you try and help out where you can because it is a team game, but if HELP defence is the sole reason why you dislike bargnani to the point where you want him out of the city in any which way, then you are not in the real world. In the real world, theres only a couple of players who DO IT ALL UP TO THE STANDARDS of most, and most of those players are already tied up and really have Toronto last on their list of destinations.

#2 If HELP defence is your only real concern with bargs, why isn't it an option that we put a better help defender beside him??? I mean if its the end of the world when Bargs doesn't help his team out but its ok/acceptable that no1 helps him?????

#1 Most bigs in the NBA has little offensive skills with good size, so man defense are in little use. But when you want to become a contender, and you need someone to go against Howard, Gasol, Lopez and etc, then Bargnani comes in handy. Since we can't beat those teams anyway, where people think help defense are more important, hint, we need to defend the basic guard oriented league first. But, the truth is, all the contending team has an offensive big and a defensive big, either he is in one person (Duncan, Garnett), or they play as a team (Boozer-Noah, Gasol-Odom, Dirk-Chandler, Rasheed-Ben).

#2 Help defense requires everyone to do their part, if one can't provide help defense, it will reduce the effectiveness of it dramatically. However, experience takes a big part of it, some players play better defense in their late career. And help defense has a higher chance to be improved, as long as they are able to read and understand opponent, but man defense might be harder, especially due to talent or physical appearance.

Thelonious · Post #145 » by **Thelonious** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:24 pm

Indeed wrote:[...] but man defense might be harder, especially due to talent or physical appearance.

LOL you, Sir, have had one too many.

Nothingface · Post #146 » by **Nothingface** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:51 pm

BorisDK1 wrote:Because he's become really, really lazy to go along with his other key attributes of stupidity and ponderous slowness.

How are we supposed to take this drivel when we continually see him beat his man off the dribble with his first step? One on one he is pretty damn good at keeping his man in front of him. Jesus, I don't know how anyone can take your biased dogma seriously.

The_Original_Baller · Post #147 » by **The_Original_Baller** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:00 pm

Just watch the games, he's not a good team defender. I don't care what type of "NEW AGE" stats these are, he's horrible and always out of position and never challenges when guys attack the rim. When's the last time you've seen Andrea deliver a hard foul on ANYBODY? Exactly! Softness!

The_Original_Baller · Post #148 » by **The_Original_Baller** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:03 pm

How much do you wanna bet McGee has a better game than Andrea tonight? Watch and see, McGee is going to be in the paint all night and Andrea will be shooting jumpers and getting crammed on.

Post #149 » by **Harry Palmer** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:26 pm

Nothingface wrote:
BorisDK1 wrote:Because he's become really, really lazy to go along with his other key attributes of stupidity and ponderous slowness.

How are we supposed to take this drivel when we continually see him beat his man off the dribble with his first step? One on one he is pretty damn good at keeping his man in front of him. Jesus, I don't know how anyone can take your biased dogma seriously.

Reactive and active quickness are two distinctly different things.

(Which is why, for example, many great running backs would make terrible cornerbacks.)

Lionel Messi · Post #150 » by **Lionel Messi** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:28 pm

Nothingface wrote:
BorisDK1 wrote:Because he's become really, really lazy to go along with his other key attributes of stupidity and ponderous slowness.

How are we supposed to take this drivel when we continually see him beat his man off the dribble with his first step? One on one he is pretty damn good at keeping his man in front of him. Jesus, I don't know how anyone can take your biased dogma seriously.

Getting by your man and keeping a guy in front of you are very different.

Thelonious · Post #151 » by **Thelonious** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:47 pm

^^ Are you guys serious? Bargnani is blessed with good mobility on both ends.
I'd say his first step is elite, and his lateral quickness is average, at least.

Post #152 » by **Harry Palmer** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:52 pm

il7mago wrote:^^ Are you guys serious? Bargnani is blessed with good mobility on both ends.
I'd say his first step is elite, and his lateral quickness is average, at least.

No. His first step if good for his size when initiating, yeah. His lats suck, and his reactive/defensive speed is terrible.

Or, to put it another way, if he is in fact blessed with defensive mobility, he's made a conscious decision to protest something political by being non-violent and non-interventionist.

Thelonious · Post #153 » by **Thelonious** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:56 pm

A lot of starting bigs would love to have his physical tools, when it comes to mobility.
The mental aspect is not relevant.

Post #154 » by **Harry Palmer** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:01 pm

il7mago wrote:A lot of starting bigs would love to have his physical tools, when it comes to mobility.
The mental aspect is not relevant.

Okay, if we're at the point where we're just repeating slogans at one another: on defense Bargs has heavy feet and lazy hands.

Thelonious · Post #155 » by **Thelonious** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:06 pm

True. We're talking about different things then.
Hopefully those feet get lighter next season.

Volcano · Post #156 » by **Volcano** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:52 pm

Harry Palmer wrote:
il7mago wrote:A lot of starting bigs would love to have his physical tools, when it comes to mobility.
The mental aspect is not relevant.

Okay, if we're at the point where we're just repeating slogans at one another: on defense Bargs has heavy feet and lazy hands.

He's actually more right than you were. It's not that Bargs is physically incapable. He just doesn't have the instincts, mentality and training to do it consistently at a decent level.

His lateral is fine and probably better than a lot of big men his size out there. The guy's most consistent and strongest points on D are probably one on one face-ups against big men and guards.

Reaction time probably falls under the mental category. His positioning sucks, but it's not due to lack of speed. He doesn't even attempt to get into position..there's a difference.

Nothingface · Post #157 » by **Nothingface** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 12:00 am

Lionel Messi wrote:
Nothingface wrote:
BorisDK1 wrote:Because he's become really, really lazy to go along with his other key attributes of stupidity and ponderous slowness.

How are we supposed to take this drivel when we continually see him beat his man off the dribble with his first step? One on one he is pretty damn good at keeping his man in front of him. Jesus, I don't know how anyone can take your biased dogma seriously.

Getting by your man and keeping a guy in front of you are very different.

It's like you didn't even read what I wrote.

brownbobcat · Post #158 » by **brownbobcat** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:12 pm

Harry Palmer wrote:Reactive and active quickness are two distinctly different things.

A lot of people don't realize that "speed" is both physical and mental. Being quick on defense is not just a matter of physical reaction time, but also recognizing the play before/as it happens and knowing how to react accordingly. Bargnani is unable or unwilling, the reason almost doesn't matter anymore at this point.

Post #159 » by **Double Helix** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:36 pm

Updated to include the Lopez bros. Robin is 2nd worst according to Synergy.

Post #160 » by **Double Helix** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:03 pm

More below average defending bigs added and ranked to the OP. The list now includes:

Nene Hilario
Michael Beasley
Josh McRoberts
DuJuan Blair
Antawn Jamison
Luis Scola
Tyler Hansbrough

Also, Ed Davis has been playing great defensively as of late and has moved up from his previous ranking. I don't have the time to update everybody but I did move Ed Davis up.