The Ringer: Raptors should consider blowing it up

[gerrit4]

Keep saying nice things about Ujiri and it will turn people around. Keep taliking about how gansta he is, how great of a pick Bruno was, and how forward looking he is. He looked at tanking once, and was steered off that course with the promise of making the playoffs, and then he rode that core right to the luxury tax, only this year really going in on it.

Had we made the trades earlier, and we had some pf depth when Pat got hurt, we're probably safely in 1st in the East.

I dont see how making a trade deadline dump in 2018 helps us load up in the 2017/18 drafts. When you get out of the lottery, its a real reach to expect to land franchise changing players.

Masai says a lot of things, usually it always sounds great but has little to no meat. I can gice you numerous examples of him stating, just win. Just win. Over and over as the path ahead. I can also point you to recent press conferences where he laid out the scenarios where he decides to take this team into the tax and make a push or not. It was prior to Lowrys injury even, but he said if the miss the playoffs or get bounced in round 1, it may not make sense to take this team in the tax. However with Lowry down, i assume he wants to see this team full strength first, whether thats this season, or next. His actions are where you judge him and hes notoriously patient and cautious.

Perhaps at Sloan he gives the audience what he feels they want to hear?

If they do blow it up, it will be because Lowry wants to bolt, or perhaps his attitude is considered more of a problem than they let on. Or because ownership tells them to get out of the tax. All other things considered I have to believe Masai is more than content with team that wins around 50 games and collects some playoff wins, because thats what I've seen. He does have a trend to keep the end of bench staffed with developing guys, but you see him reighn that in a bit when it gets beyond the bottom 5, especialy when depthbis exposed and winning suffered. Just this winter we gave up a young player under decent contract, a 1st rd pick and 2 seconds for rentals with bird rights. What he does with those players will be a good indicator. I do believe Masai will stay nimble, and may perhaps look for ways to move Carroll, Joseph, and maybe Jonas, but if we do decide to blow it up and move Kyle or DD at the deadline next year, it will not be part of a masterplan he's working now, but because by then he feels his plan needs to change.

I think there are a lot of great points here. I'm a big Masai fan, and I think he's a great person to have running our team. That being said, sometimes the media likes to treat him as if he's a brilliant mastermind, playing chess while others play checkers. I think that's a big exaggeration, the only team you could really say that about was the spurs back when they're international scouting was far ahead of everyone else. But a lot of that is due to their organization, not just RC Buford.

Masai has made some very good moves, and this is the best roster we've ever had. He deserves credit for doing a great job, even though a lot of it was just in being patient with moves that BC already made. But he's also gotten lucky and been saved from some bad moves too - the Lowry trade, trying to trade for an additional first round pick to get Tyler Ennis, trying to pay a huge salary to We Matthews so we could start Carroll at Power Forward (which would have been a disaster). His best "almost move" was that he was desperately trying to get a pick to draft Giannis (which would have completely shifted the franchise), but the rumour was that his second choice in that draft (after Giannis) was Bebe.

Masai had a great trade deadline, and he got Ibaka at a discount because he waited until the price dropped. But as you said, it left us with a terribly imbalanced roster. Part of our losing slide was because we didn't have a PF who could play on our roster.

I think there are solid arguments about whether or not it is worth going for it with this core. I don't think we should blow it up (at least not yet), but I don't think that's crazy. But I do think you need to get the correct value for your assets - so that means you're better off getting someone like Bradley Beal in exchange for Derozan than a #20 pick and the value of getting worse (and thus a higher pick).

[RaptorsNorth]

The championship or bust mentality is a fools errand. It makes sense if the core of your team is near retirement or the team is already near the bottom of the standings.

It does not make sense for perrenial playoff contenders with young rosters. Sports is unpredictable. Upsets happen. Just because you have stacked teams like the warriors is not a guarantee of anything. A Durant ankle sprain and Curry slump and any of the top teams can take on the warriors in the playoffs. The key is to consistently be a top team and capitalize when those oppotunities come.

Tanking is the way you become a perrenial bottom feeder, developing players who leave for other teams at the first opportunity they get.

Some of these guys are probably too young to remember all the star players we got from being bad that bolted on us. You can draft a good player after tanking and he might bolt at the first chance before the GM can even build the team. Not to mention the fact we play in Canada. Very few players want to be part of a tank team in Canada. At the end of the day Your faith is in the players you pick and if that player doesn't want to remain on a tank team to tank for more players then you're stuck in no mans land. Some people don't know how good they have it until we're the sixers. Tanking year after year with all their hopes on injury prone players that might even bolt when first chance presents itself.

[CoachJReturns]

Keep saying nice things about Ujiri and it will turn people around. Keep taliking about how gansta he is, how great of a pick Bruno was, and how forward looking he is. He looked at tanking once, and was steered off that course with the promise of making the playoffs, and then he rode that core right to the luxury tax, only this year really going in on it.

Had we made the trades earlier, and we had some pf depth when Pat got hurt, we're probably safely in 1st in the East.

I dont see how making a trade deadline dump in 2018 helps us load up in the 2017/18 drafts. When you get out of the lottery, its a real reach to expect to land franchise changing players.

Masai says a lot of things, usually it always sounds great but has little to no meat. I can gice you numerous examples of him stating, just win. Just win. Over and over as the path ahead. I can also point you to recent press conferences where he laid out the scenarios where he decides to take this team into the tax and make a push or not. It was prior to Lowrys injury even, but he said if the miss the playoffs or get bounced in round 1, it may not make sense to take this team in the tax. However with Lowry down, i assume he wants to see this team full strength first, whether thats this season, or next. His actions are where you judge him and hes notoriously patient and cautious.

Perhaps at Sloan he gives the audience what he feels they want to hear?

If they do blow it up, it will be because Lowry wants to bolt, or perhaps his attitude is considered more of a problem than they let on. Or because ownership tells them to get out of the tax. All other things considered I have to believe Masai is more than content with team that wins around 50 games and collects some playoff wins, because thats what I've seen. He does have a trend to keep the end of bench staffed with developing guys, but you see him reighn that in a bit when it gets beyond the bottom 5, especialy when depthbis exposed and winning suffered. Just this winter we gave up a young player under decent contract, a 1st rd pick and 2 seconds for rentals with bird rights. What he does with those players will be a good indicator. I do believe Masai will stay nimble, and may perhaps look for ways to move Carroll, Joseph, and maybe Jonas, but if we do decide to blow it up and move Kyle or DD at the deadline next year, it will not be part of a masterplan he's working now, but because by then he feels his plan needs to change.

Not sure if you were referring to me specifically, but you don't blow it up to get a top pick with the Raptors own pick. You just take whatever lotto pick you can. The top pick you get is the one you acquire at the draft for DeRozan. He's a perennial all-star and worthy of a top 5 pick in any draft. There is one bust in every top 5 and getting a guaranteed all-star(maybe even an outside shot Hall-of-Famer) for a pick in the 3-5 range is a good move for at least a couple teams in the top 5. Remember there is usually one team with a top pick that has been at the top of the lotto for 2 years or more and wants to move on from prospects. So you look to draft a star with that pick and find a solid player with our own. Then you tank one full season the following year.
Trading DeMar at the draft is key though. You aren't blowing it up if he's still around.

[KevinOConnorNBA]

This comment touches on something I read in this topic: the timing of this article is bad because right now the Cavs are sucking and right now the Raptors are excelling, so the focus should be on the now. On the focus: Masai Ujiri is future-focused. At Sloan, Ujiri said, "Everything we do, we really try to look at the future." That is apparent with his roster construct having so many young players and their excellent use of the D-League. Just because Pascal and Bruno aren't playing now doesn't mean they're not more important than Wright and Poeltl. (As for Wright and Poeltl they're fine! And all down the line, they have solid talent. No reason to list them all. You know.) As for timing: a few people said this article would've made more sense after a round one playoff loss, or during the offseason. Right, it would make more sense but that's when everyone could be writing about this. It's always better when you're ahead of the conversation — and when it comes to decisions, like Ujiri historically has been.

You just don't get it. Raptors have sucked for decades and are finally relevant. We still have no idea how this new team looks with a healthy Kyle Lowry. The dude who was arguably playing like a top 10 player this season before he went down. DeRozan is not like previous seasons, he's taken a huge leap. You're jumping to conclusions based on assumptions to get clicks and I'm guessing it worked out nicely for you.

Dude, we all get it. You're from Boston, you know your team wont beat the Raptors in a series. You and Bill Simmons have wanted us to tank for years now. Enjoy that #1 seed cause you guys are the weakest #1 seed in NBA history. Wouldn't be surprised if you lose in the 1st round.

Why do you have a to be a dick to the guy? He took the time to come and address comments/questions about his article. It's his opinion which he is certainly allowed to voice. I haven't really read the article but disagree with the overall subject that we should blow it up - no need to do that at this point - although we may need to find an alternative to Lowry for next season given he may walk.

It's cool dude. This is the internet lol. Thanks though.

[KevinOConnorNBA]

First, thanks for joining us here.

My issue stems largely from what I call the "Reset the Nintendo at the first sign of trouble" mentality that's gained momentum ever since the internet allowed fan bases to get together and remind each other how hard it is to win an NBA Championship without a transformative MVP talent. Did you lose a life while playing the game? Did you miss a powerup? Reset and start over.

We lived in happy ignorance before. We enjoyed watching good basketball being played before us. We didn't have kickstarters pushing for tank billboards. We didn't spend more time talking about the measurements of prospect than we did the Xs and Os of the sport we loved. "Maybe if we get hot and they're cold we can create an upset?" we thought. "Maybe even making it as far as we've ever gone as a franchise is a good first step."

It is. For a franchise that was best known for dunk contest participants and players wanting to leave it the first chance they could what the Toronto Raptors did last year was an accomplishment. I'm not sure if you're actually from Massachusetts or not. I'm not sure it matters. However, Massachusetts-area sports teams have won titles across each of the 4 major NA sports leagues fairly recently so I can absolutely understand how any fan from the region would more easily subscribe to the Championship or tank mentality.

Fans in many other cities, including Toronto, have been suffering for decades. Our last major championship of any kind is coming up on 25 years soon. Our hockey team has accomplished even less over that span and our basketball team hasn't even been around that long. We don't even have an NFL team. We pretend we do with the Buffalo Bills. Others merely adopted the NBA lottery. We were literally born into it.

We've seen the tank efforts that lead to far less than what we have today. We know how hard it is to have Team USA caliber players during their prime years, who want to live in cold Canada during the winter months to rep the Raptors. We've had our hearts broken by Mighty Mouse, Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter and Chris Bosh before. That's one for each generation of Raptors fan and 4 for Day 1s.

To really understand this market you had to suffer through all of that. The Raptors basically immigrated to the NBA. We're International. We faced stigmas and hurdles from many Americans who thought less of us. We started out without a whole lot. And yet 2 decades later we've finally worked our way up into the NBA Upper Middle Class. Generations of fans prior to the We the North era suffered through so much. Think of all the men who have to look back at photos of themselves as teens wearing Andrea Bargnani jerseys. Can you imagine their shame today?

Our brand has never been stronger. We function like a big market club, targeting top executives and declaring a willingness to go into luxury tax to build a winner. Our team has never featured more talent and better chemistry. We've never been closer to the Conference leaders. We have the first starting-caliber PF we've had since Chris Bosh left in Serge Ibaka and, more importantly, he's the perfect release valve for both Lowry and Derozan. We're top 4 in net rating. We have not one but 2 wings designed to slow down Lebron James in Demarre Carroll and PJ Tucker. We can play big. We can play small. We were the only team last year to beat the Cavs in the playoffs beyond the Warriors and that 73-9 team only did it one more time than we did. With Lowry back and rested we will be a better team than we were then. We're not only an injury away from upsetting them, we are perhaps even a Cavs defensive slump away.

That would be the first Finals appearance in our franchise history against a team that many anointed the greatest accumulation of talent of all time. The Warriors are a true super team and to square off with them in a historic Finals matchup might be a nightmare to some but to a franchise like the Raptors it's closer to being the kind of rags to riches sports story that hasn't been written for the NBA in a long time. We don't get that story, or that excitement of the playoff basketball, or those memories by pressing reset right now.

There will be time to rebuild and tank. Later.




Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

I like the Nintendo analogy and totally feel you on everything you're saying. Championships aren't everything, and honestly they really shouldn't be. But there's no denying that's still the ultimate goal as fans. It's what you're rooting for the team to accomplish. Anything less might feel incredibly enjoyable, but it's an incomplete feeling. You're right -- that would be rags to riches story for the Raptors. This era of Raptors basketball is exhilarating. But my perspective boils down to: Is it better to hold on to another 2-3 or maybe even four years of this OR trade it in for a longer, sustained run of 4-8 years (due to restricted free-agent rights on players) starting in 2019? There are no guarantees of a championship either way, or even another long title run for that matter. I just think the 2017 and 2018 draft classes are special and will define the next decade of basketball. I'd want stock in those classes.

[CoachJReturns]

First, thanks for joining us here.

My issue stems largely from what I call the "Reset the Nintendo at the first sign of trouble" mentality that's gained momentum ever since the internet allowed fan bases to get together and remind each other how hard it is to win an NBA Championship without a transformative MVP talent. Did you lose a life while playing the game? Did you miss a powerup? Reset and start over.

We lived in happy ignorance before. We enjoyed watching good basketball being played before us. We didn't have kickstarters pushing for tank billboards. We didn't spend more time talking about the measurements of prospect than we did the Xs and Os of the sport we loved. "Maybe if we get hot and they're cold we can create an upset?" we thought. "Maybe even making it as far as we've ever gone as a franchise is a good first step."

It is. For a franchise that was best known for dunk contest participants and players wanting to leave it the first chance they could what the Toronto Raptors did last year was an accomplishment. I'm not sure if you're actually from Massachusetts or not. I'm not sure it matters. However, Massachusetts-area sports teams have won titles across each of the 4 major NA sports leagues fairly recently so I can absolutely understand how any fan from the region would more easily subscribe to the Championship or tank mentality.

Fans in many other cities, including Toronto, have been suffering for decades. Our last major championship of any kind is coming up on 25 years soon. Our hockey team has accomplished even less over that span and our basketball team hasn't even been around that long. We don't even have an NFL team. We pretend we do with the Buffalo Bills. Others merely adopted the NBA lottery. We were literally born into it.

We've seen the tank efforts that lead to far less than what we have today. We know how hard it is to have Team USA caliber players during their prime years, who want to live in cold Canada during the winter months to rep the Raptors. We've had our hearts broken by Mighty Mouse, Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter and Chris Bosh before. That's one for each generation of Raptors fan and 4 for Day 1s.

To really understand this market you had to suffer through all of that. The Raptors basically immigrated to the NBA. We're International. We faced stigmas and hurdles from many Americans who thought less of us. We started out without a whole lot. And yet 2 decades later we've finally worked our way up into the NBA Upper Middle Class. Generations of fans prior to the We the North era suffered through so much. Think of all the men who have to look back at photos of themselves as teens wearing Andrea Bargnani jerseys. Can you imagine their shame today?

Our brand has never been stronger. We function like a big market club, targeting top executives and declaring a willingness to go into luxury tax to build a winner. Our team has never featured more talent and better chemistry. We've never been closer to the Conference leaders. We have the first starting-caliber PF we've had since Chris Bosh left in Serge Ibaka and, more importantly, he's the perfect release valve for both Lowry and Derozan. We're top 4 in net rating. We have not one but 2 wings designed to slow down Lebron James in Demarre Carroll and PJ Tucker. We can play big. We can play small. We were the only team last year to beat the Cavs in the playoffs beyond the Warriors and that 73-9 team only did it one more time than we did. With Lowry back and rested we will be a better team than we were then. We're not only an injury away from upsetting them, we are perhaps even a Cavs defensive slump away.

That would be the first Finals appearance in our franchise history against a team that many anointed the greatest accumulation of talent of all time. The Warriors are a true super team and to square off with them in a historic Finals matchup might be a nightmare to some but to a franchise like the Raptors it's closer to being the kind of rags to riches sports story that hasn't been written for the NBA in a long time. We don't get that story, or that excitement of the playoff basketball, or those memories by pressing reset right now.

There will be time to rebuild and tank. Later.




Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

I like the Nintendo analogy and totally feel you on everything you're saying. Championships aren't everything, and honestly they really shouldn't be. But there's no denying that's still the ultimate goal as fans. It's what you're rooting for the team to accomplish. Anything less might feel incredibly enjoyable, but it's an incomplete feeling. You're right -- that would be rags to riches story for the Raptors. This era of Raptors basketball is exhilarating. But my perspective boils down to: Is it better to hold on to another 2-3 or maybe even four years of this OR trade it in for a longer, sustained run of 4-8 years (due to restricted free-agent rights on players) starting in 2019? There are no guarantees of a championship either way, or even another long title run for that matter. I just think the 2017 and 2018 draft classes are special and will define the next decade of basketball. I'd want stock in those classes.

This year's draft looks very strong, I'll give you that. If you want a point guard to start over with there are 3-5 who can be all-stars. That's an absurd amount of talent for the position in one draft. Next year's draft has a couple bigs who could be a huge force including Ayton, who is the most talked about center prospect since Oden. However, I've seen enough to know that it's impossible to know how a draft plays out in the long term. Injuries, busts, free agency etc. all affect the outcome.
Following prospects is probably my favorite part of the game aside from just watching a good game. That said, you gotta pick your spots. This isn't the moment. Masai and Weltman ended that scenario with the deadline trades. This team is deep enough for us to not only hope, but expect them to beat anyone in the conference that doesn't feature LeBron.
Perhaps we should try to find a way to move up at the draft for an underrated prospect to add to the future core, but the time to blow it up comes much later.

[Sherlock]

First, thanks for joining us here.

My issue stems largely from what I call the "Reset the Nintendo at the first sign of trouble" mentality that's gained momentum ever since the internet allowed fan bases to get together and remind each other how hard it is to win an NBA Championship without a transformative MVP talent. Did you lose a life while playing the game? Did you miss a powerup? Reset and start over.

We lived in happy ignorance before. We enjoyed watching good basketball being played before us. We didn't have kickstarters pushing for tank billboards. We didn't spend more time talking about the measurements of prospect than we did the Xs and Os of the sport we loved. "Maybe if we get hot and they're cold we can create an upset?" we thought. "Maybe even making it as far as we've ever gone as a franchise is a good first step."

It is. For a franchise that was best known for dunk contest participants and players wanting to leave it the first chance they could what the Toronto Raptors did last year was an accomplishment. I'm not sure if you're actually from Massachusetts or not. I'm not sure it matters. However, Massachusetts-area sports teams have won titles across each of the 4 major NA sports leagues fairly recently so I can absolutely understand how any fan from the region would more easily subscribe to the Championship or tank mentality.

Fans in many other cities, including Toronto, have been suffering for decades. Our last major championship of any kind is coming up on 25 years soon. Our hockey team has accomplished even less over that span and our basketball team hasn't even been around that long. We don't even have an NFL team. We pretend we do with the Buffalo Bills. Others merely adopted the NBA lottery. We were literally born into it.

We've seen the tank efforts that lead to far less than what we have today. We know how hard it is to have Team USA caliber players during their prime years, who want to live in cold Canada during the winter months to rep the Raptors. We've had our hearts broken by Mighty Mouse, Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter and Chris Bosh before. That's one for each generation of Raptors fan and 4 for Day 1s.

To really understand this market you had to suffer through all of that. The Raptors basically immigrated to the NBA. We're International. We faced stigmas and hurdles from many Americans who thought less of us. We started out without a whole lot. And yet 2 decades later we've finally worked our way up into the NBA Upper Middle Class. Generations of fans prior to the We the North era suffered through so much. Think of all the men who have to look back at photos of themselves as teens wearing Andrea Bargnani jerseys. Can you imagine their shame today?

Our brand has never been stronger. We function like a big market club, targeting top executives and declaring a willingness to go into luxury tax to build a winner. Our team has never featured more talent and better chemistry. We've never been closer to the Conference leaders. We have the first starting-caliber PF we've had since Chris Bosh left in Serge Ibaka and, more importantly, he's the perfect release valve for both Lowry and Derozan. We're top 4 in net rating. We have not one but 2 wings designed to slow down Lebron James in Demarre Carroll and PJ Tucker. We can play big. We can play small. We were the only team last year to beat the Cavs in the playoffs beyond the Warriors and that 73-9 team only did it one more time than we did. With Lowry back and rested we will be a better team than we were then. We're not only an injury away from upsetting them, we are perhaps even a Cavs defensive slump away.

That would be the first Finals appearance in our franchise history against a team that many anointed the greatest accumulation of talent of all time. The Warriors are a true super team and to square off with them in a historic Finals matchup might be a nightmare to some but to a franchise like the Raptors it's closer to being the kind of rags to riches sports story that hasn't been written for the NBA in a long time. We don't get that story, or that excitement of the playoff basketball, or those memories by pressing reset right now.

There will be time to rebuild and tank. Later.




Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

I like the Nintendo analogy and totally feel you on everything you're saying. Championships aren't everything, and honestly they really shouldn't be. But there's no denying that's still the ultimate goal as fans. It's what you're rooting for the team to accomplish. Anything less might feel incredibly enjoyable, but it's an incomplete feeling. You're right -- that would be rags to riches story for the Raptors. This era of Raptors basketball is exhilarating. But my perspective boils down to: Is it better to hold on to another 2-3 or maybe even four years of this OR trade it in for a longer, sustained run of 4-8 years (due to restricted free-agent rights on players) starting in 2019? There are no guarantees of a championship either way, or even another long title run for that matter. I just think the 2017 and 2018 draft classes are special and will define the next decade of basketball. I'd want stock in those classes.

Firstly, thanks for coming on here to discuss this. Really cool move and great to see an author interested in getting into the debate with fans. Hope you'll continue to engage here over the course of the playoffs and into the draft and beyond.

I think if you could guarantee the chance to do a quick dip down into the lottery in order to pick a perennial all-star to set up an 8+ year run of sustained success, then most fans would agree with you that that is the right path forward. Every fanbase dreams of being able to do what the Spurs did, take a solid team down into the lottery for a year and come away with Tim Duncan. Or even what Boston did, tear apart an aging Championship core to rebuild quickly.

But there's a huge amount of luck involved with those analogies. Whether it's the Spurs having half their roster injured (but intact) the same year that they ultimately win the lottery and happen to have one of the 10 greatest NBA players of all time become available in the draft. Or the Celtics finding an owner/GM combination as stupid as Prokhorov/Billy King to take the other side of the worst trade of all time.

The 2014 draft class was hyped as the best class since 2003. Wiggins, Parker, Randle, Gordon, Embiid, Exum, etc. were all can't miss prospects that would totally re-shape the NBA landscape for the next decade+. Three years in? Hasn't really happened.

So maybe 2017 is a historically great draft class. Or maybe it's just 2014v2. Or maybe it is as good as 2003, but even that year, Detroit picked Darko with the #2 overall pick (so even in a great draft year, your team can still mess it up).

When you take a probability-weighted approach to the question it's a much harder discussion. Would I rather have a core that's not quite good enough play competitive top-level basketball and have an outside chance at a championship for a few years or go after the mystery box? A legitimate case can be made for both.

That's where context comes in. As I mentioned in a post earlier in this thread, consider a team like the Clippers. For 30 years, they were historically bad. Now even though the Chris Paul/Blake Griffin/DeAndre Jordan core might not win a championship, the Lob City era has completely changed the perception of that franchise around the league. Same thing with Dallas which was awful for decades before Dirk's arrival. Of course Dirk led the Mavs to a championship, but more than that, he and Cuban have changed the perception of that franchise to be one of the most attractive in the league. Both those franchises have a level of goodwill around the league they didn't enjoy historically.

For the first 20 years of their existence, the Raptors have been known around the league as a bad team and a bad franchise. What Lowry/DeRozan plus Ujiri/Casey have the chance to do for the Raptors is similar to my examples above -- they have a chance to sustain this run and change the perception of this franchise around the league.

Think of places like Charlotte or Milwaukee. Yes they occasionally have a good year or two and pop into the playoffs (and might even make it to the ECF every now and then like the Cassell/Baker/Allen core did 15 years ago) but they're generally just bad teams and are seen around the league as bad teams. If the Raptors blow it up now and miss out on the luck needed to secure that 4-8 year run you talk about, they'll be seen the same way. A bad team that popped up and had one good year and has now gone back to their rightful place at the bottom of the league.

That's why I'm in the camp that says we have to ride this wave of success as far as we can. If the wind naturally comes out of the sails, sure -- let's reset...maybe as early as next trade deadline if it's clear the franchise is trending downwards. But trading Lowry this offseason seems premature, and proactively dismantling potentially the 2nd best team in the East because LeBron is around seems way too risky for a potential payoff that most likely won't land you in a spot better than the one we're in today.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Yeah, I think it's an overestimation of Ujiri, who hasn't really shown any guts to make the tough moves he's being given credit for. I'm not saying he couldn't do it, but his record is fairly conservative. The discussion points are fine, but the reality is that every team is facing an existential crisis in the face of the Warriors. The same occurred when the Heat landed LeBron and Bosh. Both teams have lost titles to massive underdogs full of old and overpaid talent. Ultimately teams will and should forge their own path, that's what makes the league great and interesting. There's no blueprint to do what the Celtics are currently doing, much the same with the Spurs, or what the Heat did, or the Cavs and Warriors.

[metafisical]

I'm in favour of perpetual "blowing it up". Like I mentioned in another thread, if I had a choice between the Raptors winning the NBA championships 3 times in a row in the next 3 seasons or winning a top 3 pick in each of the next 3 seasons, I would have to think long and hard about it. There is something sooo much fun about tanking and winning a top 3 pick that you cannot get from winning an NBA championship.

[vini_vidi_vici]

First, thanks for joining us here.

My issue stems largely from what I call the "Reset the Nintendo at the first sign of trouble" mentality that's gained momentum ever since the internet allowed fan bases to get together and remind each other how hard it is to win an NBA Championship without a transformative MVP talent. Did you lose a life while playing the game? Did you miss a powerup? Reset and start over.

We lived in happy ignorance before. We enjoyed watching good basketball being played before us. We didn't have kickstarters pushing for tank billboards. We didn't spend more time talking about the measurements of prospect than we did the Xs and Os of the sport we loved. "Maybe if we get hot and they're cold we can create an upset?" we thought. "Maybe even making it as far as we've ever gone as a franchise is a good first step."

It is. For a franchise that was best known for dunk contest participants and players wanting to leave it the first chance they could what the Toronto Raptors did last year was an accomplishment. I'm not sure if you're actually from Massachusetts or not. I'm not sure it matters. However, Massachusetts-area sports teams have won titles across each of the 4 major NA sports leagues fairly recently so I can absolutely understand how any fan from the region would more easily subscribe to the Championship or tank mentality.

Fans in many other cities, including Toronto, have been suffering for decades. Our last major championship of any kind is coming up on 25 years soon. Our hockey team has accomplished even less over that span and our basketball team hasn't even been around that long. We don't even have an NFL team. We pretend we do with the Buffalo Bills. Others merely adopted the NBA lottery. We were literally born into it.

We've seen the tank efforts that lead to far less than what we have today. We know how hard it is to have Team USA caliber players during their prime years, who want to live in cold Canada during the winter months to rep the Raptors. We've had our hearts broken by Mighty Mouse, Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter and Chris Bosh before. That's one for each generation of Raptors fan and 4 for Day 1s.

To really understand this market you had to suffer through all of that. The Raptors basically immigrated to the NBA. We're International. We faced stigmas and hurdles from many Americans who thought less of us. We started out without a whole lot. And yet 2 decades later we've finally worked our way up into the NBA Upper Middle Class. Generations of fans prior to the We the North era suffered through so much. Think of all the men who have to look back at photos of themselves as teens wearing Andrea Bargnani jerseys. Can you imagine their shame today?

Our brand has never been stronger. We function like a big market club, targeting top executives and declaring a willingness to go into luxury tax to build a winner. Our team has never featured more talent and better chemistry. We've never been closer to the Conference leaders. We have the first starting-caliber PF we've had since Chris Bosh left in Serge Ibaka and, more importantly, he's the perfect release valve for both Lowry and Derozan. We're top 4 in net rating. We have not one but 2 wings designed to slow down Lebron James in Demarre Carroll and PJ Tucker. We can play big. We can play small. We were the only team last year to beat the Cavs in the playoffs beyond the Warriors and that 73-9 team only did it one more time than we did. With Lowry back and rested we will be a better team than we were then. We're not only an injury away from upsetting them, we are perhaps even a Cavs defensive slump away.

That would be the first Finals appearance in our franchise history against a team that many anointed the greatest accumulation of talent of all time. The Warriors are a true super team and to square off with them in a historic Finals matchup might be a nightmare to some but to a franchise like the Raptors it's closer to being the kind of rags to riches sports story that hasn't been written for the NBA in a long time. We don't get that story, or that excitement of the playoff basketball, or those memories by pressing reset right now.

There will be time to rebuild and tank. Later.




Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

I like the Nintendo analogy and totally feel you on everything you're saying. Championships aren't everything, and honestly they really shouldn't be. But there's no denying that's still the ultimate goal as fans. It's what you're rooting for the team to accomplish. Anything less might feel incredibly enjoyable, but it's an incomplete feeling. You're right -- that would be rags to riches story for the Raptors. This era of Raptors basketball is exhilarating. But my perspective boils down to: Is it better to hold on to another 2-3 or maybe even four years of this OR trade it in for a longer, sustained run of 4-8 years (due to restricted free-agent rights on players) starting in 2019? There are no guarantees of a championship either way, or even another long title run for that matter. I just think the 2017 and 2018 draft classes are special and will define the next decade of basketball. I'd want stock in those classes.

First, its nice to have you respond to our queries and angst hah.

I guess if thats how you want to boil it down, my qualm would be, youre basing the entirety of your premise on conjecture.

If the argument is we should rebuild because we cant beat these generational teams (GSW/CLE), then again this article could be written about alot of teams.

If the argument is 2-3 yrs vs 4-8, then its an even harder sell because then the argument becomes why are assured that a) it doesnt extend beyond 3 yrs, and b) following a rebuild we will have 4-8 yrs.

I think given trading a 1st and 2 2nds, having KL/SI/PP/PJ arguably 4 of the 6-7 most important Raptors (in terms of our current success) as FAs, losing those assets for nothing, or getting weak/if any value in S&Ts, all youre doing is advocating we tank for one 1st next year (as this yr we/LAC wont fall far enough) and hope we can trade Deebo/JV/CoJo/DMC for more picks (in these subsequent "loaded" next 2 drafts), which again we dont even know what offers they could table for each of them, and if GMs are willing to give up the picks.

I will say the overarching premise that MU should consider all options, is a valid one. I think hes one of the few GMs I feel like will never act impetuously, and is not afraid to make a bold is its a necessity. I dont disagree that these next 2 drafts have alot of potential, but that alone doesnt ensure we will have a team ready for a "sustained run". If there were guarantees that was the case, than im all for it.

As a caveat there were few bigger fans of tanking/accumulating picks than I was back in 2012 offseason, but I just dont think this is the time for us to take that avenue, and FWIW those posters were right because we have had 4 yrs of PO basketball, and relative sustained success, even if it is only for 2-3 (6-7 total) more as you say.

[vini_vidi_vici]

I'm in favour of perpetual "blowing it up". Like I mentioned in another thread, if I had a choice between the Raptors winning the NBA championships 3 times in a row in the next 3 seasons or winning a top 3 pick in each of the next 3 seasons, I would have to think long and hard about it. There is something sooo much fun about tanking and winning a top 3 pick that you cannot get from winning an NBA championship.

Do others actually agree with this sentiment??

I think this is ridiculous, id take the championship/s 10 times out of 10, and theres something so much fun about winning championships, that you dont get from tanking and winning a top 3 pick.

[Dr Positivity]

Thanks for the comments KOC. I understand what you're trying to say but while I may be biased it seems to me like there's never been a time to be more optimistic that the Raptors can make the Finals in the Lowry era. The Cavs are floundering and there's a plausible chance they move into a 2011-2013 Lakers version of this era. While Lowry is over 30, Lebron has played twice as many minutes as him including the playoffs. The Cavs depth is full of old players while the Raptors are full of young ones. Even if the Cavs hold on this year, next year their problems could just get worse opening the door for Toronto who if they resign Lowry and Ibaka could have a full season to go after the 1 seed. The Raptors don't have to be the Clippers or the Bengals. If the Ringer had posted an article this week saying "Can the Raptors make the Finals" based on their defense after the Ibaka trade and having the best record since of the top 4 East teams even without Lowry, I wouldn't have batted an eye

While actually winning a Finals against the Warriors or Spurs is another story, I think most of the fans here would settle for just making a Finals and seeing what happens

[Ivan Playoff]

"Blowing it up" should only be done when the GM has no other options.

The reality is, If Masai moves Kyle and Demar he'll lose his job long before the Raps ever get back to 50 wins.

Take a look at this list of active NBA allstars, starting with number one picks ...

ANTHONY DAVIS
KYRIE IRVING
JOHN WALL
BLAKE GRIFFIN
DERRICK ROSE
DWIGHT HOWARD
LEBRON JAMES

* A nice list but Lebron is the only game changer and even he needed lots of help. He had to leave Cleveland to win a ring. Also note that Lebron was drafted in 2003. Half the guys picked number one over all, never even made an all star team.

Number two picks ...

KEVIN DURANT
LAMARCUS ALDRIDGE
TYSON CHANDLER

...a whopping three players ... what happened to all the number two picks since Chandler was picked in 2001? Sixteen years and only three number two picks made an all star team. What happened to the other 13?

Number three picks ...

JAMES HARDEN
AL HORFORD
DERON WILLIAMS
CARMELO ANTHONY
PAU GASOL

Maybe number four picks will be kinder ... meh

RUSSELL WESTBROOK
CHRIS PAUL
CHRIS BOSH just for fun

How about pick five?

DeMARCUS COUSINS
KEVIN LOVE
DEVIN HARRIS
DWYANE WADE
VINCE CARTER

Pick six has to be better ...

DAMIAN LILLARD


Picked seventh ...

STEPHEN CURRY
LUOL DENG


Pick eights .. nobody!


Pick nine is the best ...

ANDRE DRUMMOND
KEMBA WALKER
GORDON HAYWARD
DEMAR DEROZAN
JOAKIM NOAH
ANDRE IGUODALA
DIRK NOWITZKI

Picked tenth

PAUL GEORGE
BROOK LOPEZ
JOE JOHNSON

Pick number eleven

KLAY THOMPSON

There are no active all stars who were picked at number twelve, thirteen or fourteen


Pick fifteen ...

GIANNIS ANTETOKOUNMPO
KAWHI LEONARD


Now the notable all stars picked after number sixteen ...

RAJAN RONDO 21
KYLE LOWRY 24
TONY PARKER 28
JIMMY BUTLER 30
DRAYMOND GREEN 35
DEANDRE JORDAN 35
PAUL MILLSAP 47
MO WILLIAMS 47
MARC GASOL 48
KYLE KORVER 51
MANU GINOBILI 57
ISAIAH THOMAS 60


Hoping to score big with an early pick in the draft is the stupidest gamble a GM could make. Betting your job on way less than 50% odds of landing an all star is not smart poker. Even if you pick first and land the next Lebron, it's going to take years to rebuild and you still only have a minuscule chance of success.

What is the sense of having cap room when you can't get the guys you really want to sign?

Masai has done a great job of turning this team around with a number nine pick he didn't make and a trade (followed by a rejected trade) for a number twenty-four pick he didn't make. He ditched our number one pick failure in Barg to make cap room. He's doing a great job as GM.

Keep winning and keep your GM job. Live in the real world tank nation. There is only one Lebron and even he needs good players to play with or he's just another all star.

[Dr Positivity]

I'm in favour of perpetual "blowing it up". Like I mentioned in another thread, if I had a choice between the Raptors winning the NBA championships 3 times in a row in the next 3 seasons or winning a top 3 pick in each of the next 3 seasons, I would have to think long and hard about it. There is something sooo much fun about tanking and winning a top 3 pick that you cannot get from winning an NBA championship.

Do others actually agree with this sentiment??

I think this is ridiculous, id take the championship/s 10 times out of 10, and theres something so much fun about winning championships, that you dont get from tanking and winning a top 3 pick.

Think that was sarcasm

[vini_vidi_vici]

I'm in favour of perpetual "blowing it up". Like I mentioned in another thread, if I had a choice between the Raptors winning the NBA championships 3 times in a row in the next 3 seasons or winning a top 3 pick in each of the next 3 seasons, I would have to think long and hard about it. There is something sooo much fun about tanking and winning a top 3 pick that you cannot get from winning an NBA championship.

Do others actually agree with this sentiment??

I think this is ridiculous, id take the championship/s 10 times out of 10, and theres something so much fun about winning championships, that you dont get from tanking and winning a top 3 pick.

Think that was sarcasm

My apologies if so.

[ciueli]

But my perspective boils down to: Is it better to hold on to another 2-3 or maybe even four years of this OR trade it in for a longer, sustained run of 4-8 years (due to restricted free-agent rights on players) starting in 2019?

I'm really not sure how we're supposed to trade what we have now into a near decade of sustained success. If recent completed trades (DeMarcus Cousins) and trade discussions (Paul George, Jimmy Butler) are any indication, even star players on good contracts don't get much in return on the market. Almost all our best players are expiring so we would get nothing for them as trade pieces.

We could go the Philadelphia route and destroy our team by trading DeMar and letting all our free agents walk, but that probably just buys us a half-decade of being terrible with no guarantee that we'll land a future star in the draft because the draft is a crapshoot. The cap space we'd have would be useless because no star player wants to sign with a bad team in Canada. This equating of the multi-year tanking strategy with future championships is something that's really disingenuous given the OKC flame out and Philadelphia's injury woes.

[vini_vidi_vici]

Guys if nothing else, hopefully tanking will spur TZ to drop more Raptors gold. I think thats probably the best argument for it.

[Danny1616]

Off-season goals should be:

1) Resigning Lowry to whatever he wants - He is still has a lot of legs left in him and his style of play well translate well deep into his mid 30s. He is also the identity of this team and the best player in franchise history.

2) Trade Valanciunas - I think he is not properly utilized and does not fit our perimeter-oriented team with Lowry and Derozan. Casey also does not trust him...it does not make sense to keep him.

3) Get rid of Carroll's contract...it is clear that Powell and Tucker provide more then Caroll...they shoot the 3 better, are quicker and stronger.

4) Resign Tucker and Ibaka

5) Try to extend Powell for a reasonable deal (could be a great decision to do now).

[Danny1616]

I'm in favour of perpetual "blowing it up". Like I mentioned in another thread, if I had a choice between the Raptors winning the NBA championships 3 times in a row in the next 3 seasons or winning a top 3 pick in each of the next 3 seasons, I would have to think long and hard about it. There is something sooo much fun about tanking and winning a top 3 pick that you cannot get from winning an NBA championship.

Do you suffer from sort of mental disability?

[Throwback24]

It's cool dude. This is the internet lol. Thanks though.

I'd like to thank you for coming on to reply to some of the posts and I'd also like to take this time out to show you some love for your podcast. You guys are doing great things and the guest appearances keep things fresh.

If I was into leaving reviews I'd drop you guys a 5 on iTunes. If I ever find an excuse to sign up, I've got you my man.

Keep up the good work.