Back on the treadmill

[WaltFrazier]

The path was always, get a superstar, win a championship, spend two years maintaining and then making another run after the summer of 2021.

Last year was gravy.

What dummies thought this was our make-it-or-bust year?

I don't wanna take a step back. I loved the style of play last year, the unselfish passing, the team D, the emergence of OG. I wish we could have run that back, or something like it. If we slip down to a lower seed and 1st round exit, why would any good FA come here? It's unlikely to get one anyway, with the Canada angle and all.

[Badonkadonk]

I’m not even talking about right now. I’m saying the direction of this team is pretty flawed.

When we miss on a star next year, we overpay OG and guess what, we’re over the cap. Now we have OG, Fred, Pascal for 5 years. What is that team?

The management has yet to draft a superstar level talent and though kudos to them acquiring one in the strangest of situations ever, he’s now gone and we look the same as pre Kawhi days.

I’m looking one year from now. I didn’t expect to do anything major this off-season but personally I think of a team like the Red Sox in baseball. They won, decided to blow it up and go young and contenders again.

We have all the makings of a perennial second round exit with no once in a generation trade in Kawhi to save us and the fact Kyle still our best player is almost at his ends.

I'm saying the direction of the team is contingent on how next offseason plays out. This leadership group was willing and on the verge of trading Lowry away when it thought it faced a dead-end. Clearly, they think there's a scenario worth exploring next offseason that would allow the team to add a potential star to a strong core, otherwise they would be dumping.

There's just little incentive to commit tenure and $$ to the options that were available now. I don't think missing out on Ibaka or Gasol moves the needle that much, and anything with a 2+ year term potentially complicates max slot availability in 2021. And while I agree the chances of Giannis coming are low (always have been IMO), it's just prudent to leave options open for what is going to be a strong and more fluid FA class, and then either go really young or augment with veterans after that.

I guess I'm in the minority by not being overly concerned with what happens during this offseason. I'm most excited to see how guys like Paul Watson Jr. (I'm really high on him) and how the two new rookies integrate into the system, and whether Boucher can extend his promising Orlando run.

Oh I think you misunderstood. I didn’t wanna Ibaka back at all. Don’t see the love affair with him. He’s a solid bench big who can’t play D.

This management group is also the same group that right before Kawhi was the laughing stock.

It’s neither here nor there. The entire picture needs to be looked at. Getting Kawhi done - major props. But now that we’ve seen what it takes to win - are you really excited for what we have moving forward?

Ask yourself - is there another trade for a Kawhi, a top 5 player who sat due to a mysterious injury who was a head case with management on the horizon? I’ve said it many times before - only 2 finals MVPs have been traded in their primes, 3 if you add Shaq. It is a rarity of all rarities.

Paul Watson is just a guy though. You guys are hoping too much for probably role players at best.

If we don’t get a star, the chances of another trade like Kawhi happening are slim to none and then we are just left with that group like we were if Demar had stayed. It’s not a reality I’m happy with but it’s looking likely.

Superstars win you games - where are we getting one? We’ve never even gotten a meeting lol

No disrespect, but what exactly is your point then? Of course superstars don't grow on trees, and actual ones don't come along too often. This year's draft has exactly zero players that anybody expects to develop into one.

I don't need to ask myself if there's another trade like Kawhi's out there - I didn't expect the first one. I can only trust the track record that the team's leadership has, which is exceptional by any measure compared to other teams in the Association.

So, for example, if the team is hovering around .500 by the trade deadline, then I wouldn't be surprised if they cashed out on Lowry, which they came close to doing before. If the team experiences a best-case-scenario development trajectory (eg. Pascal resumes his pre-bubble rate of growth, OG's offense develops to complement his elite D, FVV gets closer to Lowry's level etc.), then maybe they take a different path.

What I do know is that it's stupid to approach the team's future with blinders on. That's how bad franchises stay bad, how some teams remain stuck in the lottery perpetually etc.

[halifax]

2 yrs ago dragic was a bad contract, whiteside emerged as a 'building block', raptors considered trading siakam for cousins, and butler was traded like a hot potato. things can change very fast especially when you have the league's best gm and coach.

[ratul]

Miami is a more likely option for Giannis anyway. They will have massive space next year.

We are effed with pascal’s contract. Just have to accept that

[kalel123]

We were always going to try and sign FVV, which we did.

There was always a chance Ibaka and Gasol would be gone, which one of them (Ibaka) have. Wish we could've kept Ibaka and I believe we could've easily beat that Clippers contract even at only one year if the team really wanted to keep him. So I have to question if there ever was a desire there. Crossing my fingers there's a decent replacement.

The plan is and always has been all about 2021 free agency and that hasn't changed one bit. And if we were ever to be successful, it would've required us renouncing Ibaka by then anyway so losing him now doesn't change a whole lot when you reach that point other than maybe we keep up facade of being a better team than we actually were this year, which I would think would've been transparent to anyone with more than semi-intelligence.

And IMO High Reward of this plan is worth waiting on before any plan B/C.

Not like people like OP got any brilliant plan of their own other than pointless b*tc*ing and starting useless duplicate threads. It's easy to say 'trade Lowry', 'don't resign FVV', and 'Siakam is POS or overpaid' without thinking of consequences of those words actually coming true. All I gotta say is, be careful what you wish for. You can't just trade your historically best player out of the blue unless the other team approaches you with packages you can't say no to. As a team that's competed in the playoffs, you can't just not resign a quality player and lose him for nothing if the said player is agreeable to come back in a reasonable deal. You need to have some compelling reasons to do so otherwise all the good will and reputation will be shot to hell in short order especially if you don't turn that around to success rather quickly. Back to being laughing stock of the league. Currently, we have no compelling reason. Yet.

There will be time appropriate for complete rebuild but it ain't now. There are things that need to happen first, I happen to believe those things are taking place, but they need time to take place.

Not sure what you're trying to argue here. Like it or not, the team today is on the treadmill - not good enough to contend not bad enough for the lottery. You're arguing against a straw man when you say "You can't just trade your historically best player out of the blue unless the other team approaches you with packages you can't say no to" because no one is saying we should accept a bad package for Lowry.

Also no one is arguing against the 2021 free agency being key, Giannis in particular. A FA wanting to sign here would be concerned with the period around 2021-2025+. This puts Lowry out of the equation as he's 35 next year. So since Lowry still has trade value now and has the Championship pedigree to help out a contending team this coming season, you're best to trade him for younger assets (if it's an acceptable return) with potential that may increase your chances of signing a FA (e.g,, Giannis) next summer. And since Lowry is also a FA next summer, you can always sign him back next year for MLE if there's mutual interest.

I'm not really looking to argue with someone who doesn't grasp the concept of how NBA salary cap works and do not see the connection between Lowry becoming FA next year and us having max cap room.

[OakleyDokely]

Miami is a more likely option for Giannis anyway. They will have massive space next year.

We are effed with pascal’s contract. Just have to accept that

You dont understand the cap or the Raps cap situation at all.

The Raps project to have a max cap slot next year.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

Miami is a more likely option for Giannis anyway. They will have massive space next year.

We are effed with pascal’s contract. Just have to accept that

You dont understand the cap or the Raps cap situation at all.

The Raps project to have a max cap slot next year.

exactly why they aren't offering any contracts >1 year and aren't competing for a chip.

makes selling this to our free agents, in Ibaka and Gasol, hard - who are probably chasing chips + LT contract. Raptors can't offer any of that today.

[kalel123]

People keep talking of this great place we’re in even if we don’t get Giannis (which we won’t).

Our best player will be 36, we will have an overpaid mediocre all-star, and a much lesser PG than our best player, with a severely lacking wing player on O.

We have no superstar talent, and this we will just sign another star is a pipe dream. We’ve never even gotten a meeting. We end up with say Oladipo... what exactly is a Siakam+Fred+Oladipo team going to do?

This Masai won a title, leave him alone needs to end. You can’t live in the afterglow of a title forever. One year is still a full year at his job which he gets millions of dollars to do and we have no elite prospects, no superstar player, best player is aging, and an extremely unlikely change to sign a star.

In a year when we strike out in FAs, what will you think of this team then- because if you really look at it, we will not land a star and aren’t going to be getting high picks from the draft.

One year of Kawhi which was an outlier for some reason excuses all the years of not being a contender?

The title is over. He’s still the president and his job is to make the best moves. In the business world if you have a great year, you’re not given a pass for the next 1-2 when you get paid the big bucks to be elite.

In a year everyone will see when we don’t get anyone and this current group minus Lowry is our core.

You do realize after Kawhi left, this team was never going to be an elite team for the next 1-2 no matter which path is taken?

Your problem is that you are too short-sighted, narrow-minded, and ignorant to realize there isn't only one way to becoming a contender. Despite the fact that Ujiri has proven this, which many here have seen and realize. Rather, you'll moan and whine to no end unless this team takes the exact path you want, which is never clear because you are too busy complaining most of the time, optics be damned.

Just because you are too blind to see the clear path and goal of this team and incapable of grasping the importance of needing to allow certain events (like running it back) to take place before starting over, don't come in and spew your garbage about Ujiri being given a pass.

2021 free agency plan is still alive and well and is as legit as any other plan out there at current juncture with every plan coming with its own pros and cons. But tanking can be triggered any time after that if we don't like the outcome next offseason with all contracts being tradeable and optics look much better then than they would've done last year or this year. And yes, optics matter and giving proper respect and opportunities to guys who helped you win championship go a long way in the long run. What's important is that we did it in a way that doesn't handcuff the team's future flexibilities.

[Danny1616]

People keep talking of this great place we’re in even if we don’t get Giannis (which we won’t).

Our best player will be 36, we will have an overpaid mediocre all-star, and a much lesser PG than our best player, with a severely lacking wing player on O.

We have no superstar talent, and this we will just sign another star is a pipe dream. We’ve never even gotten a meeting. We end up with say Oladipo... what exactly is a Siakam+Fred+Oladipo team going to do?

This Masai won a title, leave him alone needs to end. You can’t live in the afterglow of a title forever. One year is still a full year at his job which he gets millions of dollars to do and we have no elite prospects, no superstar player, best player is aging, and an extremely unlikely change to sign a star.

In a year when we strike out in FAs, what will you think of this team then- because if you really look at it, we will not land a star and aren’t going to be getting high picks from the draft.

One year of Kawhi which was an outlier for some reason excuses all the years of not being a contender?

The title is over. He’s still the president and his job is to make the best moves. In the business world if you have a great year, you’re not given a pass for the next 1-2 when you get paid the big bucks to be elite.

In a year everyone will see when we don’t get anyone and this current group minus Lowry is our core.

You do realize after Kawhi left, this team was never going to be an elite team for the next 1-2 no matter which path is taken?

Your problem is that you are too short-sighted, narrow-minded, and ignorant to realize there isn't only one way to becoming a contender. Despite the fact that Ujiri has proven this, which many here have seen and realize. Rather, you'll moan and whine to no end unless this team takes the exact path you want, which is never clear because you are too busy complaining most of the time, optics be damned.

Just because you are too blind to see the clear path and goal of this team and incapable of grasping the importance of needing to allow certain events (like running it back) to take place before starting over, don't come in and spew your garbage about Ujiri being given a pass.

2021 free agency plan is still alive and well and is as legit as any other plan out there at current juncture with every plan coming with its own pros and cons. But tanking can be triggered any time after that if we don't like the outcome next offseason with all contracts being tradeable and optics look much better then than they would've done last year or this year. And yes, optics matter and giving proper respect and opportunities to guys who helped you win championship go a long way in the long run. What's important is that we did it in a way that doesn't handcuff the team's future flexibilities.

So a team that was on pace to win 60 games and was within minutes from reaching the Eastern Conference Finals is not an “elite team”?

[kalel123]

People keep talking of this great place we’re in even if we don’t get Giannis (which we won’t).

Our best player will be 36, we will have an overpaid mediocre all-star, and a much lesser PG than our best player, with a severely lacking wing player on O.

We have no superstar talent, and this we will just sign another star is a pipe dream. We’ve never even gotten a meeting. We end up with say Oladipo... what exactly is a Siakam+Fred+Oladipo team going to do?

This Masai won a title, leave him alone needs to end. You can’t live in the afterglow of a title forever. One year is still a full year at his job which he gets millions of dollars to do and we have no elite prospects, no superstar player, best player is aging, and an extremely unlikely change to sign a star.

In a year when we strike out in FAs, what will you think of this team then- because if you really look at it, we will not land a star and aren’t going to be getting high picks from the draft.

One year of Kawhi which was an outlier for some reason excuses all the years of not being a contender?

The title is over. He’s still the president and his job is to make the best moves. In the business world if you have a great year, you’re not given a pass for the next 1-2 when you get paid the big bucks to be elite.

In a year everyone will see when we don’t get anyone and this current group minus Lowry is our core.

You do realize after Kawhi left, this team was never going to be an elite team for the next 1-2 no matter which path is taken?

Your problem is that you are too short-sighted, narrow-minded, and ignorant to realize there isn't only one way to becoming a contender. Despite the fact that Ujiri has proven this, which many here have seen and realize. Rather, you'll moan and whine to no end unless this team takes the exact path you want, which is never clear because you are too busy complaining most of the time, optics be damned.

Just because you are too blind to see the clear path and goal of this team and incapable of grasping the importance of needing to allow certain events (like running it back) to take place before starting over, don't come in and spew your garbage about Ujiri being given a pass.

2021 free agency plan is still alive and well and is as legit as any other plan out there at current juncture with every plan coming with its own pros and cons. But tanking can be triggered any time after that if we don't like the outcome next offseason with all contracts being tradeable and optics look much better then than they would've done last year or this year. And yes, optics matter and giving proper respect and opportunities to guys who helped you win championship go a long way in the long run. What's important is that we did it in a way that doesn't handcuff the team's future flexibilities.

So a team that was on pace to win 60 games and was within minutes from reaching the Eastern Conference Finals is not an “elite team”?

You saw the same playoffs that I saw? This team was not an elite team and chances were very small of them being it. But they did deserve an opportunity to run it back and show whether or not they could be an elite team. I view that as being more important than what that team was or was not and now we know it wasn't. Right now, the important thing is that there's a plan in place and they are in the midst of executing it and even if the plan doesn't come to fruition, there's enough flexibility here to be able to pivot to whichever direction they choose to go next. And the man executing is the very person who showed there are multiple paths to championship contention.

[Danny1616]

You do realize after Kawhi left, this team was never going to be an elite team for the next 1-2 no matter which path is taken?

Your problem is that you are too short-sighted, narrow-minded, and ignorant to realize there isn't only one way to becoming a contender. Despite the fact that Ujiri has proven this, which many here have seen and realize. Rather, you'll moan and whine to no end unless this team takes the exact path you want, which is never clear because you are too busy complaining most of the time, optics be damned.

Just because you are too blind to see the clear path and goal of this team and incapable of grasping the importance of needing to allow certain events (like running it back) to take place before starting over, don't come in and spew your garbage about Ujiri being given a pass.

2021 free agency plan is still alive and well and is as legit as any other plan out there at current juncture with every plan coming with its own pros and cons. But tanking can be triggered any time after that if we don't like the outcome next offseason with all contracts being tradeable and optics look much better then than they would've done last year or this year. And yes, optics matter and giving proper respect and opportunities to guys who helped you win championship go a long way in the long run. What's important is that we did it in a way that doesn't handcuff the team's future flexibilities.

So a team that was on pace to win 60 games and was within minutes from reaching the Eastern Conference Finals is not an “elite team”?

You saw the same playoffs that I saw? This team was not an elite team and chances were very small of them being it. But they did deserve an opportunity to run it back and show whether or not they could be an elite team. I view that as being more important than what that team was or was not and now we know it wasn't. Right now, the important thing is that there's a plan in place and they are in the midst of executing it and even if the plan doesn't come to fruition, there's enough flexibility here to be able to pivot to whichever direction they choose to go next. And the man executing is the very person who showed there are multiple paths to championship contention.

Yes I saw the playoffs.

I saw a team within a couple minutes from reaching the ECF despite their best player clearly out of shape.

[RoyceDa59]

We’re in a top 10 position of anyone in the league. Very happy with our core talent pool and Massi’s ability to find hidden gems.

I came into this off season with the expectation that we need to retain FVV and go into next year as a good playoff team that is preparing for a big 2021 off-season.

Losing Serge is fine, he was a great fit for the championship team but I expect he will start to decline soon and he wasn’t part of the long term plan.

Be patient young lads, I have faith Masai has a master plan and that so far he’s executing as needed.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[FreshyFlames]

I disagree completely. You add any allstar calibre player to this core and they can get back to the finals. Hell, they almost got to the ECF as is.

It's up to Masai to add that piece again and I wouldn't bet against him. The Raps have cap space, all their draft picks and young assets.

I disagree completely. We need a superstar not an all star to win. Huge difference between Kawhi and DeMar(check 2018-2019 if you haven't). Also chemistry is a real thing. Can't just plug any player in and get the same result regardless. And then on top of that our competition has improved. No way we make finals adding just any all star. Has to be a superstar.

There's nothing really to disagree with. We all know you need stars to win. But you dont get stars by giving out big contracts to average players.

Masai has positioned the Raps to add a max player via trade or free agency in 2021, which is the smart move. There's no guarantee that he can get that type of player, but he has to try. You add a max player to Siakam, OG, VV and possibly Lowry on a smaller deal and you got a really good team.

That's why I don't understand all the panic. The free agents that have signed so far, including Ibaka, dont get the Raps closer to a title this year. They would only clog up the cap in future years.

Except I disagreed with your opening sentence and provided reason. Not sure what you didn't comprehend. Adding any all star doesn't equal finals. That's just wrong and dishonest.

[OakleyDokely]

I disagree completely. We need a superstar not an all star to win. Huge difference between Kawhi and DeMar(check 2018-2019 if you haven't). Also chemistry is a real thing. Can't just plug any player in and get the same result regardless. And then on top of that our competition has improved. No way we make finals adding just any all star. Has to be a superstar.

There's nothing really to disagree with. We all know you need stars to win. But you dont get stars by giving out big contracts to average players.

Masai has positioned the Raps to add a max player via trade or free agency in 2021, which is the smart move. There's no guarantee that he can get that type of player, but he has to try. You add a max player to Siakam, OG, VV and possibly Lowry on a smaller deal and you got a really good team.

That's why I don't understand all the panic. The free agents that have signed so far, including Ibaka, dont get the Raps closer to a title this year. They would only clog up the cap in future years.

Except I disagreed with your opening sentence and provided reason. Not sure what you didn't comprehend. Adding any all star doesn't equal finals. That's just wrong and dishonest.

I said that they can get back to the finals if they add an allstar to this core. How in the world is that dishonest exactly?

[kj_]

The fact that the Raptors are still Lowry or bust at his age is pathetic and should be called out. We have over 200 mill in cap tied up to 2 floor raisers with zero shot at superstardom. We are entering a worse version of the Lowry/DeRozan era (Lowry being way better than both these dudes being why. Don't delude yourselves into the Giannis pipedream.

This team is a crappy offensive unit that relies on defense who just got worse on both ends (assuming both Marc and Serge are gone). We're probably going to be a top 4 seed as usual but this is an early playoff exit. If Kyle loses a step forget it.

Thai thread can be summed up with... “if you don’t swing hard, you can’t hit a home run.”

Not even attempting to position the team for a Giannis shot would be stupid. Especially when there is no real downside risk.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lukeem]

Yes let’s pontificate others enjoyment and make assumptions because they have a negative view on what the current team is.

Makes sense.

Winning a title and having a superstar - now that was fun. Being a contender for a year - that was fun. Having a young budding superstar - that would be fun.

We are none of those things.

Yeah, that's fair. I shouldn't make assumptions. I just get tired of the constant negativity. And all I know is that whenever I'm reading a thread and see a post by "Steelo" I just know that it's going to be nothing but negativity before even reading it. So it's actually an honest question if you get enjoyment out of all the time and effort you apparently spend following basketball.

Have you ever begun a post with some variation on "This was great..." or "I really enjoyed it when..." or "This was really fun..."?

You claim that it was fun being a contender and winning a title, but even during the past two years (by far the best years in franchise history), the vast majority of your posts have been negative. I would wager its about 9 in 10. So maybe your posting just doesn't reflect your true enjoyment of the game.

Uhh maybe you should go through my posts when we won the title and had Kawhi.

I was team positive until that debacle against Cleveland and realized a non superstar team is not doing anything, and Kawhi gone and that is what we are again. I get excited to see superstars and contenders - we are neither.

So do you think we are better or worse than pre Derozan trade ?

[Steelo Green]

Yeah, that's fair. I shouldn't make assumptions. I just get tired of the constant negativity. And all I know is that whenever I'm reading a thread and see a post by "Steelo" I just know that it's going to be nothing but negativity before even reading it. So it's actually an honest question if you get enjoyment out of all the time and effort you apparently spend following basketball.

Have you ever begun a post with some variation on "This was great..." or "I really enjoyed it when..." or "This was really fun..."?

You claim that it was fun being a contender and winning a title, but even during the past two years (by far the best years in franchise history), the vast majority of your posts have been negative. I would wager its about 9 in 10. So maybe your posting just doesn't reflect your true enjoyment of the game.

Uhh maybe you should go through my posts when we won the title and had Kawhi.

I was team positive until that debacle against Cleveland and realized a non superstar team is not doing anything, and Kawhi gone and that is what we are again. I get excited to see superstars and contenders - we are neither.

So do you think we are better or worse than pre Derozan trade ?

Once Kyle is gone and we strike out in FA, we are about the same. Maybe win a round at best and never contend for anything with no real way to improve in sight with a full cap signed with mediocre talent, none of which is a superstar.

[tosi]

I bought a lifetime of raptors championship hats. I’m good

[jimmy keys]

The path was always, get a superstar, win a championship, spend two years maintaining and then making another run after the summer of 2021.

Last year was gravy.

What dummies thought this was our make-it-or-bust year?

I don't wanna take a step back. I loved the style of play last year, the unselfish passing, the team D, the emergence of OG. I wish we could have run that back, or something like it. If we slip down to a lower seed and 1st round exit, why would any good FA come here? It's unlikely to get one anyway, with the Canada angle and all.

what? we're pretty much running it back with the exact same team. Ibaka was replaced with Baynes. that's it pretty much. Gasol is washed.

[will]

Who the hell uses a treadmill these days? Rather the Peloton.