Tank World Order

[Tortiglioni]

Dwane Casey (Pistons) - 0/4
Nurse (Raptors) - 0/3

Like father, like son.

[KL78192020]

All we need is the next Michael Jordan, Tim Duncan, Magic Johnson or Bill Russell.

Or just wait another 25 years to trade for the next playoff MVP that comes around in Kawhi. Or clear space for the next Giannis just like the last time we signed that big time free agent in Hedo! Lets do that instead!

Or just trade for Harden, who is really good and wants out. This argument failed the first time you proposed it in another thread, and it hasn't gotten better. You're suggesting that the Raptors waited 25 years for Kawhi Leonard to become available

The have no assets to trade for Harden but please continue. If they trade Siakam the team is just as bad as the houstan team. He'll have no one to play with.

And you keep forgetting how the Ratpors got Kawhi. With two lottery picks. But keep dreaming of Harden with no other assets on this team.

[ItsDanger]

I'd rather bet on bad GMs making mistakes than getting lucky in a lottery that requires a 5 yr commitment. Masai strategy is to accumulate talent and trade up.

[KL78192020]

I'd rather bet on bad GMs making mistakes than getting lucky in a lottery that requires a 5 yr commitment. Masai strategy is to accumulate talent and trade up.

So youre hoping for Billy King and Bryan Colangelo to get jobs again? Thats the key to Raptors success lol.

[JaysRule25]

Remember guys, our scouting department is solid. We've consistently picked up good players in the draft despite not having high draft picks. That's one thing that really excites me about the prospect of potentially getting a top 5 draft pick. Our scouting department has a great chance to draft an elite talent.

[Danny1616]

Remember guys, our scouting department is solid. We've consistently picked up good players in the draft despite not having high draft picks. That's one thing that really excites me about the prospect of potentially getting a top 5 draft pick. Our scouting department has a great chance to draft an elite talent.

Right.

If you did the 2015 draft over again, Powell is lottery pick.

If you did the 2016 draft over again, Pascal is a top 3 pick, and Fred is a top 15 pick.

If you did the 2017 draft again, OG is a top 10 pick.

If you did the 2019 draft again, Terrence Davis is likely a top 20 pick.

So even though we only had one lottery pick since 2015, we actually selected 4 guys that are playing like lottery picks.

So even though we haven't necessarily had lottery picks, we still have young players that can improve and they also have good trade value if we went to go for another star. Pascal has already proved he can be the 2nd scoring option on a championship team. Even if he isn't a true #1 option he still has trade value that we can package at the deadline or next off-season. Powell was nearly a 6th man of the year last year who has had big time playoff performances. OG is 23 years old and has already shown lots of promise.

Masai still has good young assets and cap flexibility to work with. We are in a solid position.

tWo doesn't seem to understand this.

[PhilBlackson]

I'd rather bet on bad GMs making mistakes than getting lucky in a lottery that requires a 5 yr commitment. Masai strategy is to accumulate talent and trade up.

...and when exactly have we ever traded up in the draft??

Guess we just make up Masai's "strategy" to support our own viewpoints is how this works.

[Pooh_Jeter]

I'd rather bet on bad GMs making mistakes than getting lucky in a lottery that requires a 5 yr commitment. Masai strategy is to accumulate talent and trade up.

Since when does a rebuild REQUIRE a 5 year commitment? That is basically a worst case scenario which is no more likely than the best case scenario which would be a one year turn around. Given that the coaching and organization the Raptors have is strong, the best case is more likely than the worst case which really has only been seen with terrible organizations.

[GordanFreeman]

I'd rather bet on bad GMs making mistakes than getting lucky in a lottery that requires a 5 yr commitment. Masai strategy is to accumulate talent and trade up.

...and when exactly have we ever traded up in the draft??

Guess we just make up Masai's "strategy" to support our own viewpoints is how this works.

Accumulate good pieces and them package out for an excellent piece.

[TrustFundBaby]

Remember guys, our scouting department is solid. We've consistently picked up good players in the draft despite not having high draft picks. That's one thing that really excites me about the prospect of potentially getting a top 5 draft pick. Our scouting department has a great chance to draft an elite talent.

Crazy thing is Masai/Tolzman have actually been improving in this regard as well

Look at how far they came

2014: Panic draft Bruno who busts hard, Draft DeAndre Daniels who never did a single thing. Horrible draft

2015: Takes Delon late, but Delon was always the worst of the Bench Mob Youth, Powell in the 2nd is Masai's first real hit considering draft position. Good draft

2016: Takes Yak 9th, probably playing it safe considering he was planning on Siakam later and didn't want 2 potential busts, homerun with Siakam, signs FVV as an undrafted FA. A+ draft. The draft that would make the team Champions.

2017: Takes OG who outperforms expectations greatly

Dewan had 0 expectations and jury out on Flynn/Harris

I have complete trust they don't take the disappointing/busts of the past few years Fultz/Simmons/Bagley/Ball/DLo/Wiggins/Parker

[ruckus]

I'm not going to poop on fans asking for a tank as I feel its on par with clearing capspace to sign Giannis in free agency or trading Pascal or Lowry for Harden. Its great in theory but with all the moving pieces that the franchise has no control of, the likelihood of it happening is pretty slim.

Nick Nurse will never coach not to win and without a major injury, I don't think this team can be bad enough to secure a top draft pick this season.

Tanking doesn't mean the coach or players are actively trying to lose, that isn't the case across any sport. It's simply management placing an emphasis on futures and constructing the roster so that it is aiming to compete down the road instead of the present. No, that doesn't mean every single player on the roster has to be some 19 year old rookie.

I've never heard tanking put into those terms before. It makes it sound palatable. There are costs however to the front office sacrificing the present for the future.

I'd disagree with your first point too though. In terms of a tank/rebuild the organization is in the drivers seat. Sure, you cant guarantee where you pick, but you get the choice of WHO you pick, so if your scouting is on point you're good. In terms of trades and things like that since you're the one dealing the assets you can play the entire market and find what works for you. If anything having a good coach along with good management will accelerate the process. Any NFL fans should look to what the Miami Dolphins have done.

When you're talking about free agency (Giannis) or a trade (Harden) those two parties are firmly in control. Giannis could have a bad dream that tells him not to sign in Toronto and you're out of the running. The Rockets are playing your offer against potentially 29 other ones.

I can't agree with you here. Yes, scouting is a big part in drafting but it's still a crapshoot and in reality, the only part you can control in a tanking situation is who you pick at the spot you land at. Then, add to the fact that you don't really know what you drafted until 2-3 years down the line, that's quite a bit of time/money invested for a non-guaranteed payoff.

Thats not to say trading or free agency don't have their caveats as well. Like you said, when trying to trade for a difference maker or pursuing a free agent, you are competing with 28 other teams. However, the team has control over what assets they are putting out there and they know what they're getting in return.

[Steelo Green]

I'd rather bet on bad GMs making mistakes than getting lucky in a lottery that requires a 5 yr commitment. Masai strategy is to accumulate talent and trade up.

...and when exactly have we ever traded up in the draft??

Guess we just make up Masai's "strategy" to support our own viewpoints is how this works.

Accumulate good pieces and them package out for an excellent piece.

Yeah and hope the excellent piece is worth pennies on the dollar.

Hint: You won’t get a superstar without losing 5 first rounders like the PG trade. Pascal isn’t as valuable as you all think.

[ItsDanger]

I'd rather bet on bad GMs making mistakes than getting lucky in a lottery that requires a 5 yr commitment. Masai strategy is to accumulate talent and trade up.

Since when does a rebuild REQUIRE a 5 year commitment? That is basically a worst case scenario which is no more likely than the best case scenario which would be a one year turn around. Given that the coaching and organization the Raptors have is strong, the best case is more likely than the worst case which really has only been seen with terrible organizations.

Lets watch OKC. I'll agree to call it year 1 even though its really in season 2. Tear downs take 1-2 seasons alone. Look at Wiseman right now, defensively he needs 2 years he's so bad. You have to factor in experience and around 2-3 top 5 lottery picks. So yeah 5 years.

[Skeezo]

Remember guys, our scouting department is solid. We've consistently picked up good players in the draft despite not having high draft picks. That's one thing that really excites me about the prospect of potentially getting a top 5 draft pick. Our scouting department has a great chance to draft an elite talent.

Right.

If you did the 2015 draft over again, Powell is lottery pick.

If you did the 2016 draft over again, Pascal is a top 3 pick, and Fred is a top 15 pick.

If you did the 2017 draft again, OG is a top 10 pick.

If you did the 2019 draft again, Terrence Davis is likely a top 20 pick.

So even though we only had one lottery pick since 2015, we actually selected 4 guys that are playing like lottery picks.

So even though we haven't necessarily had lottery picks, we still have young players that can improve and they also have good trade value if we went to go for another star. Pascal has already proved he can be the 2nd scoring option on a championship team. Even if he isn't a true #1 option he still has trade value that we can package at the deadline or next off-season. Powell was nearly a 6th man of the year last year who has had big time playoff performances. OG is 23 years old and has already shown lots of promise.

Masai still has good young assets and cap flexibility to work with. We are in a solid position.

tWo doesn't seem to understand this.

Okay let's be a little more transparent rather than cherry picking for your analysis...

2013...
• If Masai has the Raptors lottery pick #12 than he is able to draft Giannis... He would not able to accomplish this with picks in the 20s

2014
• Raptors draft B.Caboclo #20 and D.Daniels at #37...
• Available in the Lottery... Wiggins, Embiid, A.Gordon, M.Smart, Randle, Saric, LaVine and Warren

2015
• Raptors draft Wright #20 and Powell #46... Powell was acquired by trading a Raptor player for future draft assets
• Available in the Lottery... KAT, Russell, KP, Winslow, Turner, Booker, Rozier, Oubre Jr.

2016
• Raptors draft Poeltl #9, Siakim #27, and FVV (undrafted)... Poeltl was acquired by trading a Raptors player for a future draft asset
• Available in the Lottery... Simmons, Ingram, J.Brown, Hield, Murray, D.Sabonis

2017
• Raptors draft OG Anunoby... OG was acquired by trading a Raptor player for future draft asset
• Raptors traded #25 pick to Orlando in S.Ibaka deal
• Available in the Lottery... L.Ball, Tatum, J.Jackson, D.Fox, J.Issac, L.Markkanen, D.Michell, Adebayo, and Fultz

2018
• Raps trade 1st and 2nd Rd picks to get rid of D.Carroll contract
• Gary Trent Jr and L.Shamet are only players of any interest drafted past #20 pick
• Available in the Lottery... D.Ayton, M.Bagely, Doncic, J.Jackson Jr, T.Young, M.Bridges, Gilgeous-Alexander, Bridges

2019
• Drafted D.Hernandez #59... 1st Rd traded in K.Leonard deal
• Not going to make an assessment on 2019 players as it is too soon to tell


So a couple things... I agree with your assessment that the Raptors have some of the best talent evaluators and that they have been extremely good at identifying players later in the draft... However, your argument fails to recognize that the highest levels of talent in each draft were still only available to teams that had lottery picks... Do you think Masai still drafts Siakim if he has a Top 5 pick and has a chance at J.Murray, Hield, Simmons, or Ingram? Likely not, considering he drafted Poeltl at #9... However, even if Masai was sure on a late picks' talent, would you rather not want him to own the higher pick and be able to trade down in the draft while acquiring additional assets and said player?

The other thing you are missing is how Toronto was able to make picks like Anunoby and Powell because they traded players that weren't likely to help them in the short-term window for additional future draft assets... This is exactly why many people are advocating for trading Lowry and Powell now to get future assets instead of losing them for nothing next year in free agency... I see far too many people making the argument that we won't get anything for Lowry in trade but a late first round pick which is worthless so we shouldn't do it... These same people, then talk out of both-sides of their mouth saying we don't need to tank for lottery picks because Masai is such a good drafter with the late picks... But I thought late picks were worthless?

Nobody in TWO thinks that we don't have a solid base from which to work with (FVV, Siakim, OG)... Instead we are advocating for returning to asset-acquiring mode by trading players that do not fit the timeline for returning to contender status because of either age or contract (Lowry/Powell) rather than losing them for nothing next year.

[MixxSRC]

Drafting in lottery is different than late first round or second round. In lottery everyone knows who is who.

[h4rrison]

Am I a fake fan if I want the team to lose and trade our expiring contracts for assets?

[KL78192020]

Am I a fake fan if I want the team to lose and trade our expiring contracts for assets?

No just a smart person that realizes the run is over and its time to rebuild. We already lost Gasol/Ibaka for nothing. Time to trade Baynes/Lowry/Powell for any value they bring. Masai should've taken a hail mary on guys like Josh Jackson and Harry Giles as cheap free agents.

[bballsparkin]

Am I a fake fan if I want the team to lose and trade our expiring contracts for assets?

Well, I think it's still early. Should push come to shove I think that should definitely be an option. Trading Lowry, Raptors could be King makers. If no one steps up offensively and the Raptors continue to struggle it makes sense to move assets.

[bballsparkin]

No just a smart person that realizes the run is over and its time to rebuild. We already lost Gasol/Ibaka for nothing. Time to trade Baynes/Lowry/Powell for any value they bring. Masai should've taken a hail mary on guys like Josh Jackson and Harry Giles as cheap free agents.

All these posters bashing signing Baynes, yet he probably has value near the deadline. And could be a nice piece in a trade. I imagine, Baynes can be traded with no hard feelings. Unlike if the Raptors had we re-signed Ibaka,

[Masai4PM]

We're one James Harden trade away from absolutely crushing TWO.

C'mon Masai, work your magic.