The truth about FVV

[xAIRNESSx]

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[WaltFrazier]

You haven't noticed that when a team is leading by 10 points with 2 to 3 minutes left they start dribbling down the shotclock on each possession?

It can be done by passing and cutting too. having a small guard dribble down to under 5 on the shot clock is not always good when he has trouble getting the shot away against good D. It's not like we have a Kobe or a Durant or a Trae young who can dribble it down and then still get a good shot.

Wrll theb you disagree with the coaching staff and the team's startegy. Not fred. Fact is....it was not a "mistake" that he was dribbling down the shotclock and Nurse and Nate were not telling him to move the ball during those possessions.

It's bizarre that the fred-haters went from trashing him incessantly to this measured back-pedalling version of "nuanced" complaining that he's dribbling down the shotclock while in the lead in the final minutes of a game. Which we won.

It's beyond parody. Same thing happened last year. The posts are still up. Wrong about fred again. And hilariously....your new backpedalling take is also wrong. "When i said that Fred is trash, we should trade him, and he didnt know how to play his position i wasn't WRONG per se....it's just he is different now".

No....it's that you had no idea what you WERE talking about and u still don't.

I won't interact with fred-haters anymore and derail anymore threads. I'm done with this. I'm not defending him anymore.

You must be talking to other posters who may be "Fred haters". I like Fred, I just have a realistic view of his strengths and weaknesses. And his pluses far outweigh the negatives, no doubt.

Found a good video, probably been posted here somewhere already:

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Fred didn't have much midrange game before, now he he des, must have worked on it. It's awesome. But you can't say, he's done that all along. To say he has changed, ie improved some things, is a compliment not an insult.

[Dennis 37]

He's clearly our best 3 point shooter and hopefully when Pascal gets back he will get some off ball and catch & shoot reps.

It has nothing to do with pascal being back or not. This is the role they gave him... that's the problem... he should be used off the ball more. People have been saying it for years. But nick nurseclets him freeball. When he's on the floor with banton a non shooter banton should be handling the ball since fvv is the better shooter instead we have fvv dribbling and banton standing around for what... it makes no sense and that's where the frustration comes in.

All of what is perceived to be hate directed at FVV is in fact criticism of coaching decisions. When FVV is on with GTJ, he is the PG, but, as Boogie points out, Banton is not yet a reliable at catch and shoot. It makes no sense whatsoever to have Fred act as the PG when Banton is on the floor.

My main criticism of coaching is that Fred is on the floor too long. We are going to burn him out and his decision making abilities suffer when he is fatigued. Flynn is capable of holding the fort for 5 minutes at least, and when Scottie is back, put Banton out there without Fred.

[WaltFrazier]

Fred has really taken another step up this season. The gap between what he is doing & what Lowry did seems narrow right now...

I really never thought id say anything remotely close to that.

Hope he can sustain

Right, and pointing out how he's improved is a compliment.

I hope he can sustain too, plus when the guys get healthy he will have a lot of help. It's exciting to consider.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Fred didn't have much midrange game before, now he he des, must have worked on it. It's awesome. But you can't say, he's done that all along. To say he has changed, ie improved some things, is a compliment not an insult.

He's clearly worked on it, but we've seen him hit all those shots before. Any kind of shot needs reps, and the Raptors over the past several years were Moreyball dominant 3s or at the rim. Nurse is allowing Gary and Fred to take these lower % shots because they won't be effective at the rim and it's the next best option after being run off the line. More reps = more comfort. James Harden has had a similar problem throughout his career, being stuck in Moreyball. It's not that he's not talented enough to pull up from 2, it's that he's told not to and then when it's required he doesn't have the confidence/touch.

Once Siakam comes back I would expect Fred to stop taking these shots as often and his %s will go back down, and then posters will get on his case again.

[WaltFrazier]

Fred didn't have much midrange game before, now he he des, must have worked on it. It's awesome. But you can't say, he's done that all along. To say he has changed, ie improved some things, is a compliment not an insult.

He's clearly worked on it, but we've seen him hit all those shots before. Any kind of shot needs reps, and the Raptors over the past several years were Moreyball dominant 3s or at the rim. Nurse is allowing Gary and Fred to take these lower % shots because they won't be effective at the rim and it's the next best option after being run off the line. More reps = more comfort. James Harden has had a similar problem throughout his career, being stuck in Moreyball. It's not that he's not talented enough to pull up from 2, it's that he's told not to and then when it's required he doesn't have the confidence/touch.

Once Siakam comes back I would expect Fred to stop taking these shots as often and his %s will go back down, and then posters will get on his case again.

I would hope Pascal can penetrate and kick to Fred for some open 3's. That will help Fred, getting open looks off someone else's penetration.

[Marty_Budda]

My problem with Fred has always been he’d have one good game out of two -and he’d shoot us out of the game he’s not shooting well in. As long as he can keep playing well 2/3 games rather than 1/2 I’m happy to keep eating crow.

yes, because basketball is played on one side of the court. Fred is an elite defender. It's rare to have a player that plays the pg position handle the ball so much on offense and still be able to play at such a high level on defense. I think his off nights on the offensive end are excusable with how hard he plays on D and given our best players in Siakam and Barnes are out.

Ideally, once Siakam and Barnes come back, Fred will be more of an off ball spot up shooter with the occasional drive to the basket or mid range pull up to keep the defense honest. Also he still needs to be that guy in late clock situations. It's insane how clutch he is in those situations.

Where did I say he’s not a good defender? But if your shot isn’t falling there’s no reason you should pounding the air outta that rock for 20 seconds each position and be taking 20+ shots. Idc how good your defense is. He’s improved drastically in that regard this year.

Idk how you could disagree that Fvv stunk in about half the games he played in last year

[10giz]

Fred is at or above Kyle's ability/impact at the same age when he arrived.

He's had much better mentorship, been a part of a strong organization, has had far better teammates of high character, a league leading support system and has become a champion and being a huge part of it tpp.

I see no reason why Fred can't be our gritty leader for the next 4-6 years just like Kyle did especially with his consistent improvement.

[prelude00]

It's crazy how much he's improved just from game 1 of this season to game 9.

He definitely sees what doesn't work and looks at ways to fix that and be more effective. That mid range elbow jumper is money now. All because teams are expecting him to drive right to the basket.

I'll be honest I didn't think he was capable of leading this team but he's definitely showing me how little I know lol.

I wonder if he might be the first raptor lifer. Would be cool to have one of those in this day and age in the NBA

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk

[GreatWhiteStiff]

It can be done by passing and cutting too. having a small guard dribble down to under 5 on the shot clock is not always good when he has trouble getting the shot away against good D. It's not like we have a Kobe or a Durant or a Trae young who can dribble it down and then still get a good shot.

Wrll theb you disagree with the coaching staff and the team's startegy. Not fred. Fact is....it was not a "mistake" that he was dribbling down the shotclock and Nurse and Nate were not telling him to move the ball during those possessions.

It's bizarre that the fred-haters went from trashing him incessantly to this measured back-pedalling version of "nuanced" complaining that he's dribbling down the shotclock while in the lead in the final minutes of a game. Which we won.

It's beyond parody. Same thing happened last year. The posts are still up. Wrong about fred again. And hilariously....your new backpedalling take is also wrong. "When i said that Fred is trash, we should trade him, and he didnt know how to play his position i wasn't WRONG per se....it's just he is different now".

No....it's that you had no idea what you WERE talking about and u still don't.

I won't interact with fred-haters anymore and derail anymore threads. I'm done with this. I'm not defending him anymore.

You must be talking to other posters who may be "Fred haters". I like Fred, I just have a realistic view of his strengths and weaknesses. And his pluses far outweigh the negatives, no doubt.

Found a good video, probably been posted here somewhere already:

Read on Twitter

Fred didn't have much midrange game before, now he he des, must have worked on it. It's awesome. But you can't say, he's done that all along. To say he has changed, ie improved some things, is a compliment not an insult.

It's probably a thing that was undervalued in Free Agency. I mean he had the bet on your self marketing/mantra, but perhaps teams underrated his ability to improve/innovate, even though he's improved massively since being drafted. He wasn't some underrated phenom, he made himself by working on his game, and getting results from that. So it perhaps shouldn't be surprising he's finding new ways of getting better.

[GreatWhiteStiff]

Fred is at or above Kyle's ability/impact at the same age when he arrived.

He's had much better mentorship, been a part of a strong organization, has had far better teammates of high character, a league leading support system and has become a champion and being a huge part of it tpp.

I see no reason why Fred can't be our gritty leader for the next 4-6 years just like Kyle did especially with his consistent improvement.

Lowry was backing up or 50/50ing with Jose Calderon when he arrived (though calderon was near his peak then)...so yes, hopefully freddie is better than that.

[10giz]

Fred is at or above Kyle's ability/impact at the same age when he arrived.

He's had much better mentorship, been a part of a strong organization, has had far better teammates of high character, a league leading support system and has become a champion and being a huge part of it tpp.

I see no reason why Fred can't be our gritty leader for the next 4-6 years just like Kyle did especially with his consistent improvement.

Lowry was backing up or 50/50ing with Jose Calderon when he arrived (though calderon was near his peak then)...so yes, hopefully freddie is better than that.

I should've clarified, moreso once he took over the starting job. Easier to just compare their age 27 seasons (Lowrys first full season starting for the Raptors).



It is absolutely within the range of outcomes for Fred to follow a similar career path and have another 4-6 all star quality seasons.

Should be even easier for him considering the talent, defence and scoring around him is significantly better than what Kyle had then. Not to mention a significantly better head coach too.

It was laughable that people actually expected the Raptors to be at the bottom of the conference this year. That age 27 season of Lowry's we won 48 games with what was IMO, a notable weaker team. I would go as far as to say exponentially weaker.

[DelAbbot]

Someone kidnap FVV and tie him in front of the Bellarmine offense footage on loop until he passes out:

Watch on YouTube

[PoundTown]

Someone kidnap FVV and tie him in front of the Bellarmine offense footage on loop until he passes out:

Watch on YouTube

Nice share, that’s pretty cool. He’s been doing a better job every game though. Still has his moments.

Banton likes to get the ball up quick and kick it around however.

[gbball]

Trust the pass.

[DatHomieYouHaTe]

he was doing well passing the ball more and not trying to finish at the rim(which he sucks at) along with the pull up jumpers but he still tries to do way too much out there thinking he Fred VanJordan. Dribbling the air out the ball and eating up the shot clock is infuriating

[normgod6]

Fred is allergic to pushing the pace. We are one of the slowest teams in the league when Fred is our primary ball handler. Its one of the most frustrating things about his game, even more than the over dribbling and constantly getting stuffed at the rim. Its such a drastic difference compared to Kyle Lowry, who would constantly try to push the pace and hit go ahead passes. Who else remembers Kyle impatiently holding his hands out telling the inbounder to quickly pass him the ball whenever the other team scored? You never know what you had until its gone man. Now we are stuck with Fred walking up the court every possession, wasting 8 seconds from our already putrid half court offense.

[And1+2]

Fred is allergic to pushing the pace. We are one of the slowest teams in the league when Fred is our primary ball handler. Its one of the most frustrating things about his game, even more than the over dribbling and constantly getting stuffed at the rim. Its such a drastic difference compared to Kyle Lowry, who would constantly try to push the pace and hit go ahead passes. Who else remembers Kyle impatiently holding his hands out telling the inbounder to quickly pass him the ball whenever the other team scored? You never know what you had until its gone man. Now we are stuck with Fred walking up the court every possession, wasting 8 seconds from our already putrid half court offense.

Our pace yesterday against the Nets was infuriatingly slow against a team which needed to be outpaced.

[Prestige]

If this team is going to roll with OG, Barnes and Siakam, Vanvleet is not the solution at PG.

[johanliebert]

One loss and the same users are back with false narratives. It’s times like these where I’m glad nurse makes the decisions.