The Importance of Center Play

[HumbleRen]

I wonder if Atlanta would be open to moving Capela if their season continues to go downhill.

No shot lol, he’s their best defender.

[WaltFrazier]

Likely none! I'm okay with another lottery pick though. Whereas, I suspect you are not.

Right, I'm not, but the real question is are FVV, OG and Pascal, all young stars in their prime with a ring and plenty of playoff games already, are they ok with missing playoffs again on purpose? They shouldn't be, they are competitive guys.

Isn't that on them ? We're only as good as our best players are.

Sure but I assume they'd like the FO to build a better team around them now, not a team that's several years away.

[HumbleRen]

Right, I'm not, but the real question is are FVV, OG and Pascal, all young stars in their prime with a ring and plenty of playoff games already, are they ok with missing playoffs again on purpose? They shouldn't be, they are competitive guys.

Isn't that on them ? We're only as good as our best players are.

Sure but I assume they'd like the FO to build a better team around them now, not a team that's several years away.

There's only so much they can do, all of the money is tied up in FVV/OG/GTJ/Siakam.

[Mehar]

After this road trip we are probably looking at the tank nation

We don’t have anyone to guard a 250 center
We could use an ish wainwright right now someone built like a tank

Tanking for another year would be the best case scenario for this team. With the lottery pick next year, we can hopefully get a Legitimate Centre of the future. All due respect to Precious/Birch, but these guys are best coming off the bench, and playing more minutes at the power forward spot like they have done in the past.

Precious is 6 feet 7.5 inches tall without shoes, and weighs around 220-225 pounds. Birch is 6 feet 7.75 inches without shoes, and around 230 pounds. They are undersized, and their bodies cannot stand a full season, matching up against guys that are 4 inches taller and 30-40 pounds heavier over a 82 game schedule as starters. Masai said this is a developmental year. Might as well roll up the tank, and hope to get lucky in the lottery again next year.

[WaltFrazier]

Isn't that on them ? We're only as good as our best players are.

Sure but I assume they'd like the FO to build a better team around them now, not a team that's several years away.

There's only so much they can do, all of the money is tied up in FVV/OG/GTJ/Siakam.

OK but that's where I maintain a trade to get one more center, not a superstar but one who won't mean trading one of the core, would mean a huge improvement.

[HumbleRen]

Sure but I assume they'd like the FO to build a better team around them now, not a team that's several years away.

There's only so much they can do, all of the money is tied up in FVV/OG/GTJ/Siakam.

OK but that's where I maintain a trade to get one more center, not a superstar but one who won't mean trading one of the core, would mean a huge improvement.

It's tough for sure, who would be our best trade asset ? Boucher and Dragic ? I don't think any team is giving up a starting caliber center for those 2.

[YogurtProducer]

27 mins for 5 men is alot, there are only 8 lineups with 12+ mins.
And your point in "one of those guys is a rookie", then we should have a C until the rookie is ready to play that role. If it takes him 10 years to shoot the 3s (*cough* DeRozan *cough*), so we build a lineup that is expecting him to shoot 3? I think we should base on short term, not long term.

If any of them can play C and don't need a C, then we deal with the C. But if we need a C now, and probably the next 2 years, I think we should fix this problem before assuming this will resolve in few years. We do not know if this small lineup is a solution.

27 minutes is certainly not, a lot. But anyways, in the 20 minutes last night those 3 played the 3/4/5 we were a +27.2NRTG.

And if we get a C who cant shoot that just makes Barnes inability to shoot even more damaging, not better.

I guess we shall see if we can sustain the 135 ORtg with 43.8% from 3s, or would this only happen against Detroit or league worsts.

This is the other stats that were difference between last game and the previous ones:
https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/misc/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612761&CF=GROUP_NAME*R*Siakam:GROUP_NAME*R*Barnes:GROUP_NAME*R*Anunoby&PerMode=Per100Possessions

Goes both ways - what the odds teams shoot 40% from 3 against us all year? (Low, very low)

[seanbig]

After this road trip we are probably looking at the tank nation

We don’t have anyone to guard a 250 center
We could use an ish wainwright right now someone built like a tank

Tanking for another year would be the best case scenario for this team. With the lottery pick next year, we can hopefully get a Legitimate Centre of the future. All due respect to Precious/Birch, but these guys are best coming off the bench, and playing more minutes at the power forward spot like they have done in the past.

Precious is 6 feet 7.5 inches tall without shoes, and weighs around 220-225 pounds. Birch is 6 feet 7.75 inches without shoes, and around 230 pounds. They are undersized, and their bodies cannot stand a full season, matching up against guys that are 4 inches taller and 30-40 pounds heavier over a 82 game schedule as starters. Masai said this is a developmental year. Might as well roll up the tank, and hope to get lucky in the lottery again next year.

I would agree with this point. We are obviously not competing for the title this year and our so called fives have already been dinged up and it’s not even been a month.

I suspect we will end up playing more zone which will take time to get up and running

[Indeed]

27 minutes is certainly not, a lot. But anyways, in the 20 minutes last night those 3 played the 3/4/5 we were a +27.2NRTG.

And if we get a C who cant shoot that just makes Barnes inability to shoot even more damaging, not better.

I guess we shall see if we can sustain the 135 ORtg with 43.8% from 3s, or would this only happen against Detroit or league worsts.

This is the other stats that were difference between last game and the previous ones:
https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/misc/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612761&CF=GROUP_NAME*R*Siakam:GROUP_NAME*R*Barnes:GROUP_NAME*R*Anunoby&PerMode=Per100Possessions

Goes both ways - what the odds teams shoot 40% from 3 against us all year? (Low, very low)

Let's see about next game against the Jazz, where they are built to space it out for Gobert and Mitchell, and they often shooting around 40%. I believe they are back to back, but Portland is also back to back and shoot over 40%.

[YogurtProducer]

So last night the small ball defence has a DRTG of 101, and the Birch lineups had a DRTG of 146.

What’re the odds we blame all our problems on the Siakam at the 5 lineups?

[WaltFrazier]

So last night the small ball defence has a DRTG of 101, and the Birch lineups had a DRTG of 146.

What’re the odds we blame all our problems on the Siakam at the 5 lineups?

Khem isn't big enough to anchor a defense by himself. Play Birch (or Achiuwa when he returns) with OG, Siakam and Barnes together and it will be very different. Since Siakam came back we haven't played that lineup even one second. Playing our undersized C's with those 3 long guys would help them, and take away the difficult job of OG or Scottie guarding a big.

Anticipating those who will say no, I repeat we haven't tried yet, not once. And what we're doing is not working.

[Indeed]

So last night the small ball defence has a DRTG of 101, and the Birch lineups had a DRTG of 146.

What’re the odds we blame all our problems on the Siakam at the 5 lineups?

Khem isn't big enough to anchor a defense by himself. Play Birch (or Achiuwa when he returns) with OG, Siakam and Barnes together and it will be very different. Since Siakam came back we haven't played that lineup even one second. Playing our undersized C's with those 3 long guys would help them, and take away the difficult job of OG or Scottie guarding a big.

Anticipating those who will say no, I repeat we haven't tried yet, not once. And what we're doing is not working.

I think these are all the plays that Birch was on the floor (it was either with Trent or Myhailiuk on the floor):
Birch with Myhailiuk
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?flag=1&CFID=&CFPARAMS=&PlayerID=0&TeamID=1610612761&GameID=&ContextMeasure=OPP_PTS&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&LeagueID=00&PerMode=PerGame&GroupQuantity=2&PlusMinus=N&PaceAdjust=N&Rank=N&Outcome=&Location=&Month=0&SeasonSegment=&OpponentTeamID=0&VsConference=&VsDivision=&GameSegment=&Period=0&LastNGames=1&DateFrom=&DateTo=&ShotClockRange=&Conference=&Division=&PORound=0&MeasureType=Opponent&section=lineups&islineup=1&GROUP_ID=-203920-1629004-&GroupID=-203920-1629004-

Birch with Trent
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?flag=1&CFID=&CFPARAMS=&PlayerID=0&TeamID=1610612761&GameID=&ContextMeasure=OPP_PTS&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&LeagueID=00&PerMode=PerGame&GroupQuantity=2&PlusMinus=N&PaceAdjust=N&Rank=N&Outcome=&Location=&Month=0&SeasonSegment=&OpponentTeamID=0&VsConference=&VsDivision=&GameSegment=&Period=0&LastNGames=1&DateFrom=&DateTo=&ShotClockRange=&Conference=&Division=&PORound=0&MeasureType=Opponent&section=lineups&islineup=1&GROUP_ID=-203920-1629018-&GroupID=-203920-1629018-

[YogurtProducer]

So last night the small ball defence has a DRTG of 101, and the Birch lineups had a DRTG of 146.

What’re the odds we blame all our problems on the Siakam at the 5 lineups?

Khem isn't big enough to anchor a defense by himself. Play Birch (or Achiuwa when he returns) with OG, Siakam and Barnes together and it will be very different. Since Siakam came back we haven't played that lineup even one second. Playing our undersized C's with those 3 long guys would help them, and take away the difficult job of OG or Scottie guarding a big.

Anticipating those who will say no, I repeat we haven't tried yet, not once. And what we're doing is not working.

A Birch/Barnes/Siakam combo will be terrible offence because there is zero spacing. That combo so far this year (in 8 very small sample minutes) has a -21.4 Net Rating

I was wrong by the way; FVV/GTJ/OG/Barnes/Siakam last night had a 91.7DRTG. Lets not act like we lost last night due to a center (or lack thereof)

Siakam/Barnes/OG have played 75 minutes together this year (all but 2 were at the 3/4/5, the other 2 minutes were with Boucher). That lineup has a 112.9ORTG and a 106.1DRTG. Those marks would be the 2nd best offence and 12th best defense.

I repeat - WE ARE NOT LOSING GAMES WHEN WE HAVE SIAKAM/BARNES/OG AT THE 5.

[ConSarnit]

So last night the small ball defence has a DRTG of 101, and the Birch lineups had a DRTG of 146.

What’re the odds we blame all our problems on the Siakam at the 5 lineups?

Khem isn't big enough to anchor a defense by himself. Play Birch (or Achiuwa when he returns) with OG, Siakam and Barnes together and it will be very different. Since Siakam came back we haven't played that lineup even one second. Playing our undersized C's with those 3 long guys would help them, and take away the difficult job of OG or Scottie guarding a big.

Anticipating those who will say no, I repeat we haven't tried yet, not once. And what we're doing is not working.

A Birch/Barnes/Siakam combo will be terrible offence because there is zero spacing. That combo so far this year (in 8 very small sample minutes) has a -21.4 Net Rating

I was wrong by the way; FVV/GTJ/OG/Barnes/Siakam last night had a 91.7DRTG. Lets not act like we lost last night due to a center (or lack thereof)

Siakam/Barnes/OG have played 75 minutes together this year (all but 2 were at the 3/4/5, the other 2 minutes were with Boucher). That lineup has a 112.9ORTG and a 106.1DRTG. Those marks would be the 2nd best offence and 12th best defense.

I repeat - WE ARE NOT LOSING GAMES WHEN WE HAVE SIAKAM/BARNES/OG AT THE 5.

It’s becoming increasingly clear the that Center truthers on this board have NEVER looked at a stat outside of a box score.

[gbball]

We need at the very least a big who can run the pick and roll. Ideally someone very athletic who is both a rim protector and a lob threat.

That would make a huge difference on this team. We could do a consolidation trade for someone like Myles Turner who I think would be an awesome fit. Or we could go dumpster diving to see who we can get for cheap with our open roster spot...

Guys like:

Freddie G. who is more ground bound than I would like, but he moves well enough and he's a decent roll man and he's strong enough to guards other team's bigs.

Donta Hall - Super athletic, has good size...but he's a major project. We brought him in last year and he didn't even play.

Bruno Caboclo - Not that big, but has the high shoulders and crazy arm length. He's pretty athletic. Decent rim protector and pick and pop or pick and roll. Can also slash pretty well. Good lob threat also. Still has lots of upside.

Or, we could be patient and wait for the draft. There are tons of really interesting big men prospects this year up and down the draft. If we're not in win now mode, I think we should take a flier on someone listed above or just wait until the draft for an upgrade.

Scottie plays well with guys he can throw lobs to. We don't have anyone on our team who is a great lob threat. Fred could also use a lob threat when he drives into the lane off the pick and roll. Not sure he'd be comfortable throwing it, but it's a nice release valve if he did. Flynn/Dragic are also good at hitting the roll man for the dunk or lob.

[WaltFrazier]

So last night the small ball defence has a DRTG of 101, and the Birch lineups had a DRTG of 146.

What’re the odds we blame all our problems on the Siakam at the 5 lineups?

Khem isn't big enough to anchor a defense by himself. Play Birch (or Achiuwa when he returns) with OG, Siakam and Barnes together and it will be very different. Since Siakam came back we haven't played that lineup even one second. Playing our undersized C's with those 3 long guys would help them, and take away the difficult job of OG or Scottie guarding a big.

Anticipating those who will say no, I repeat we haven't tried yet, not once. And what we're doing is not working.

A Birch/Barnes/Siakam combo will be terrible offence because there is zero spacing. That combo so far this year (in 8 very small sample minutes) has a -21.4 Net Rating

I was wrong by the way; FVV/GTJ/OG/Barnes/Siakam last night had a 91.7DRTG. Lets not act like we lost last night due to a center (or lack thereof)

Siakam/Barnes/OG have played 75 minutes together this year (all but 2 were at the 3/4/5, the other 2 minutes were with Boucher). That lineup has a 112.9ORTG and a 106.1DRTG. Those marks would be the 2nd best offence and 12th best defense.

I repeat - WE ARE NOT LOSING GAMES WHEN WE HAVE SIAKAM/BARNES/OG AT THE 5.

Birch only played 21 minutes last night. The rest of the game we had a forward at center. We lost. Don't tell me it was all on Birch.

The lineup I'd like to see, that we have not tried even for a second this season, is Birch/Achiuwa, and all three of SIAKAM/BARNES/OG together. Plus Fred. There's a big difference between playing all 3 of those guys with Birch and a guard, and only playing two of them plus Fred and Trent. I maintain for the "long boi" concept to work it needs to have 4 of them on the court, not 3 plus 2 smaller guards.

[Hoop Heavy]

It feels like we are really missing rim protection. When I watch games with a good rim protector, drivers veer through the paint ... they don't go right to the hole like with this team. There's lots of help but no real shot blocker.

Still, maybe it could be Scottie. He just needs a year or two to get that level.

I also think one needs top flight low-post defense to win in the playoffs. We'd be better if we didn't have to double team the post so much.

The defense had gelled before Siakam returned. They are clearly not "re-gelled". Still very few games.

[Tor_Raps]

I understand no one likes a person patting themselves on their back but I had to bump this thread.

Just hire me on your damn staff already Masai... I'll save you the obvious mistakes going forward

[tripa]

I don’t expect us to ever give a significant role to a traditional centre as long as Masai/Bobby/nick are running the show. Eventually we will likely have a 7 footer on the roster but they will not be a traditional C, unless they also have all the perimeter skills we value.

[WaltFrazier]

Center play looking pretty good right now. valuable to our team