What to do with Bruce?

[Zeno]

Bruce, 19 for Lonzo, 11 makes some sense for us if Bulls don’t think he’ll be able to play but him trying will cost them insurance savings.

Bruce, 19 for Huerter, Vezenkov, 13 makes sense for Kings if they want to clear future salary.

[PoundTown]

Bruce, 19 for Lonzo, 11 makes some sense for us if Bulls don’t think he’ll be able to play but him trying will cost them insurance savings.

Bruce, 19 for Huerter, Vezenkov, 13 makes sense for Kings if they want to clear future salary.

Somebody proposed similar deal with Bulls throwing in Jevon Carter to get out of his contract too to really make that deal worth it on their end. He'd give us a somewhat decent backup point guard who plays both ends and shoots well. He could fit decent if paired with Kelly and Scottie in a bench unit to make up for his lack of playmaking. I would do that trade, especially if there is someone the Raps really value. If there isn't someone they really value, then it's not worth it. Giannis was taken 15 and SGA taken 12, so you never know. Not sure why the Kings do that other deal to be honest. I feel like Vivek would be okay spending dollars.

[Zeno]

Bruce, 19 for Lonzo, 11 makes some sense for us if Bulls don’t think he’ll be able to play but him trying will cost them insurance savings.

Bruce, 19 for Huerter, Vezenkov, 13 makes sense for Kings if they want to clear future salary.

Somebody proposed similar deal with Bulls throwing in Jevon Carter to get out of his contract too to really make that deal worth it on their end. He'd give us a somewhat decent backup point guard who plays both ends and shoots well. He could fit decent if paired with Kelly and Scottie in a bench unit to make up for his lack of playmaking. I would do that trade, especially if there is someone the Raps really value. If there isn't someone they really value, then it's not worth it. Giannis was taken 15 and SGA taken 12, so you never know. Not sure why the Kings do that other deal to be honest. I feel like Vivek would be okay spending dollars.

As far as the Kings are concerned, it depends on if they have a deal with Monk in place to stay but they are getting up near the tax/apron in future years for a 1st round exit. This might open up use of the full MLE for them in future seasons.

[CazOnReal]

One thing i'm trying to find some clarification on: The Raptors have made agreements with players in prior offseasons to defer the decision on a given team option/guarantee before ultimately exercising/declining said option, usually by paying 10K or so for the deferral.

I am curious if the same could apply to Brown in order to avoid potential tampering allegations should they negotiate a sign and trade as free agency starts after the decision needs to be made on his team option.

[navyblue]

One thing i'm trying to find some clarification on: The Raptors have made agreements with players in prior offseasons to defer the decision on a given team option/guarantee before ultimately exercising/declining said option, usually by paying 10K or so for the deferral.

I am curious if the same could apply to Brown in order to avoid potential tampering allegations should they negotiate a sign and trade as free agency starts after the decision needs to be made on his team option.

You absolutely can do that, but why would brown agree to it. What happens if the extend deadline and then raptors decline option let's say on July 7th, by then other teams might have used up cap space/mle already.

It's usually the players on minimum contracts level players who agree to extend deadline.

[CazOnReal]

One thing i'm trying to find some clarification on: The Raptors have made agreements with players in prior offseasons to defer the decision on a given team option/guarantee before ultimately exercising/declining said option, usually by paying 10K or so for the deferral.

I am curious if the same could apply to Brown in order to avoid potential tampering allegations should they negotiate a sign and trade as free agency starts after the decision needs to be made on his team option.

You absolutely can do that, but why would brown agree to it. What happens if the extend deadline and then raptors decline option let's say on July 7th, by then other teams might have used up cap space/mle already.

It's usually the players on minimum contracts level players who agree to extend deadline.

Well the idea would be to potentially find him a destination on a playoff team while negotiating without tampering, which is something this team is seemingly against despite how effective it's been for the Heat (at least in year 1 of the Kyle Lowry sign and trade) and especially the Knicks (Brunson is All-NBA, worth losing that 2nd rounder 100/100 times).

Personally i'd just eat the loss of a 2nd rounder if there's a free agent they really want to pry away (Claxton, Hartenstein, J. Smith, etc.) but I digress.

[Raptorfan2012]

Would anyone flip Bruce to the Jazz for Collins? Jazz save a bit of money and continue to tank. Collins would be an okay fit next to Scottie with his shooting.

[CazOnReal]

Would anyone flip Bruce to the Jazz for Collins? Jazz save a bit of money and continue to tank. Collins would be an okay fit next to Scottie with his shooting.

I wrote about this a few days ago.

TL;DR - Collins is overpaid and while not a bad player since he fits the role of a stretch 4/5 on offense, he's a defensively...confusing player. Not fast enough to guard wings, not big enough to guard centers and despite having more opportunities in Utah, he's stagnated.

The real prize would be either moving up in the draft or getting a 2025 1st.

Full-ish version of the John Collins portion below: https://www.reddit.com/r/torontoraptors/comments/1cpu56m/a_speedrunners_guide_to_bruce_brown_and_what_can/

Spoiler:

Most likely player(s): John Collins

2023/24 Stats: 15.1 points, 8.5 rebounds, 1.1 assists | 53.2% FG\37.1% 3P\79.5% FT

Incoming salary: $26.6 million (Net increase 3.6 million), 3 years | 2 + 1 player option

Pick(s) available: 10th pick in 2024 draft, 2025 Timberwolves/Cavaliers 1st

Let me pull out a tin foil cap and offer you a theory: I think that the Ochai Agbaji/Kelly Olynyk trade started out as a potential John Collins/Bruce Brown swap to get the Mormon state's team to save a bit of money in the short-term & a lot of money in the long-term while simultaneously filling in a backcourt hole the trading of O.G. and Pascal opened up. Presumably, this began under the goal of getting that 2025 1st Masai and co. were aiming for but whatever the behind the scene specifics, that's not the trade we ended up with.

Owed to Collins having a pretty lengthy contract and him fitting a position of need for the Raptors, albeit with a pretty large asterisk that we'll touch on in a moment, John fit the mold for the buy-low "distressed asset" player that Masai Ujiri has sought out such as the aforementioned RJ Barrett acquisition who has seen a paradigm shift in both production and player reputation since playing for the Raptors.

I've talked about Collins before when his name kept cropping up in the 2023 trade rumors at the deadline, as well as when the Hawks were looking to trade for Pascal Siakam; at the time, John or fellow frequently rumored Hawks player De'Andre Hunter were seen as the main piece of salary. If you want a longer explanation then by all means go ahead and read it but the short version is that it was very easy to turn down a deal where Collins was the centerpiece for Pascal, even if John Collins is perfectly capable as an NBA forward.

After being traded to the Jazz for pennies on the dollar and failing to rehab his overall value to be flipped by known fleecer Danny Ainge, Collins name has found his way back in the rumor mill with the Jazz trying to get rid of him, owed largely to their frustration with the former Hawks forward.

In a vacuum, John Collins does fill the role of a stretch 4 or a small ball 5...sort of. The problem is that John Collins, while a decent player overall, is a positionally confusing one on defense. A great finisher and lob threat on offense, he isn't fast enough to guard most 3s and 4s on defense, and he lacks the size to be a full-time option for a small ball 5 a la the similarly short (Both are 6'9) Bam Adebayo. His shooting has rebounded from a career-low 29% in his final season with the Hawks (owed largely due to a finger injury that should not be viewed for the faint of heart) to more in line with his career average, Collins days with the Jazz have seen him boasting a 37% 3-point percentage on around 3 attempts per game.

And yet, that optimistic turnaround doesn't extend to the season Collins had overall. Yes, he's staying close to his career averages for shooting, rebounding, etc. but that's despite greater opportunity being afforded to him.

That is in of itself part of the problem; the Jazz are in a rebuild where, aside from Lauri Markkanen, no one on the team is guaranteed to be part of their future, and even Lauri has had rumors chasing him ever since January. The door is wide open for anyone to rise up and become a franchise piece, and there's plenty of young talent to give a run for.

It's a prime environment for John Collins to showcase why he was once seen as a rising star like he did in Atlanta during games where Trae Young was out and yet...his tenure in Utah has only served to reinforce the notion that John Collins is who he is, and he's not going to improve much from where he is as a player right now.

The player Collins is right now and will be for the duration of his current contract is not a bad one, but they are overpaid relative to their production; Collins is being paid roughly $25 million on average with a player option in the 3rd year of his contract so while he won't be the worst placeholder one could have for a big man, the amount of cap they do take up will require any team that takes on his money to carefully build around the margins under the new CBA.

The other "trades don't exist in a vacuum" caveat with a Jollins/Brown swap is that...look, the Raptors want some form of draft capital, whether it's moving up in the draft, picking up a 2nd 1st later in the draft or, preferably, a 1st in the 2025 draft. The Jazz do have a pick in this draft but it may be a bit too far out of reach to jump up to via a simple salary dump.

Going from 19 to the late lottery a la the above Bulls suggestion or the third team we'll talk about is a viable option if the Raptors are trading Brown to grant a team short or long-term salary relief/turning dead salary into a rotation player. The Mavericks did this very same thing last year when they dumped Davis Bertan contract on to the Thunder while still acquiring the player they originally wanted in Dereck Lively II. Granted, they only dropped from 10th to 12th but I digress.

Going in to the middle of the lottery from 19 is a significantly higher jump to make. The Jazz do have an interesting 2nd coming their way via the Wizards and no shortage of future picks from the Timberwolves and the Cavaliers though how heavily protected one of them would be were the Jazz to part ways with said pick, and whether the Raptors would be willing to trade out of this draft's 1st round should they lose their own pick to the Spurs (roughly a 55% chance to occur) is up in the air.

It is worth mentioning that if the Raptors keep their pick at 4 or 6 and expect the player we want to draft in that range to still be on the board by 8th, then perhaps an 6 + Brown for 8 + Collins + a future first from the Wolves/Cavs might be an option. Otherwise, it's hard to see the Raptors moving up in the first round for this draft via a trade with Utah.

It should also be noted that there is a possibility the Jazz lose their pick to the Thunder, as it's 8th pre-lottery with a Top 10 protection. If it drops to 11 then it will convey to OKC.

There's one other reason why a trade with Utah is less likely: Recency. Teams rarely make trades with the same partner in what is effectively the same season and the Jazz have done just that via the frequently mentioned Ochai/Olynyk trade.. Exceptions exist but the fact that the two already did so does make it much less likely that they'll be trade partners in the upcoming draft.

Then again, sometimes trades that died in the offseason or deadline use the previously declined deal as a framework for a deal that does end up happening; the Lakers and Pelicans re-engaged trade talks after failing to acquire Anthony Davis in 2019. Lo and behold, New Orleans traded away the All-NBA big man for a haul and a half that the Lakers are still on the hook for - and they might still be if the Pelicans defer their owed Lakers pick to 2025.

[nivisi9]

We aren't getting any of these assets for Brown..

every off-season there are a million trade "rumors + speculation" regarding lottery picks (or even 1st round picks) and they almost ALL NEVER HAPPEN

Even more so these last few yrs with how valuable these young assets have become, the draft has become a transactional bore.


You have to think from the other front office's point of view, they are just as excited as ours/us to draft an exciting young prospect with their pick..

You think they want to give that up for Bruce Brown? lol he's a role player who looked terrible/ineffective on one of the worst teams in the league last yr.

Even if there is some minimal interest, when it comes down to it the team usually decides to keep the pick + chance to draft a Gem.


I especially wouldn't expect that to change for a Bruce Brown trade package.

It would have to be a really late 1st/2nd round pick MAYBEEEE only if its really helping a team out of a jam + they don't really want the pick (which is usually rare)

[CazOnReal]

You have to think from the other front office's point of view, they are just as excited as ours/us to draft an exciting young prospect with their pick..

Yeah i'm sure they're thrilled to be drafting players in this class that execs keep saying how much it sucks and they hate it especially for the lottery teams who are overpaying their potential selections relative to their expectations/roles.

Solid logic right there.

[OAKLEY_2]

Brown is a sunken asset right now....Hes just a glue guy kinda like Royce O'neal...Hes not a player teams will trade their best assets for...

List of priorities in terms of development.
1. Re-up Quickley
2. Continue Scottie's improvement
3. Continue Gradey's development as maybe starter
4. Continue RJ's development
5. Pick upside or depth when drafting
6. Consider how national team commitments can help Raptors development in the near and long term. Do acquired players like Wiggins, Nunez and Edey aid Raptors growth due to being in international programs?
7. Trade landscape. Who can we absorb for picks?
8. Young bench or vet bench or combo?
9. Draft position implications in 2025
10. Gary - can we afford to let him go?
11. Brown. Tied to Gary. One or the other. He is way better than he showed so why act desperate to move him?
12. Poetl trade value assessment. His contract is good. He's a decent player by any measure. Is he our best trade asset? He is only a hindsight mistake if we do not fix the situation. We only fix the situation if is truly a mistake. The only drawback is his timeline. It was not like trading for Jermaine O"Neal, or Rudy Gay or Shawn Marion. Quite the opposite.

[SpezNc]

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[ArthurVandelay]

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lol

Doug

[SpezNc]

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lol

Doug

Also is it me or Doug said that one of the advantage of conveying is that the Raptors has some certainty and could trade the pick . With the serpian rule, it’s incorrect right ? I am assuming he meant FRP past 2025 right ?

[DG88]

So the idea is if a deal isn't reached by the draft is to pick up Brown's option and trade him during the offseason. If we can get a rotation player and a late first I'd be pretty happy with that return.

[islandboy53]

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lol

Doug

Also is it me or Doug said that one of the advantage of conveying is that the Raptors has some certainty and could trade the pick . With the serpian rule, it’s incorrect right ? I am assuming he meant FRP past 2025 right ?

We have a 1st this year, so we can trade next year's.

[islandboy53]

So the idea is if a deal isn't reached by the draft is to pick up Brown's option and trade him during the offseason. If we can get a rotation player and a late first I'd be pretty happy with that return.

If we can get a rotation player I'd be happy with a couple of good seconds, depending on the nature of the filler salary that was attached.

[ArthurVandelay]

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lol

Doug

Also is it me or Doug said that one of the advantage of conveying is that the Raptors has some certainty and could trade the pick . With the serpian rule, it’s incorrect right ? I am assuming he meant FRP past 2025 right ?

Everything you need to know on Stepien rule

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2024/05/hoops-rumors-glossary-ted-stepien-rule-5.html#ref=home

[SpezNc]

lol

Doug

Also is it me or Doug said that one of the advantage of conveying is that the Raptors has some certainty and could trade the pick . With the serpian rule, it’s incorrect right ? I am assuming he meant FRP past 2025 right ?

Everything you need to know on Stepien rule

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2024/05/hoops-rumors-glossary-ted-stepien-rule-5.html#ref=home

lol I called it serpian

Thank you for the link

[navyblue]

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lol

Doug

Also is it me or Doug said that one of the advantage of conveying is that the Raptors has some certainty and could trade the pick . With the serpian rule, it’s incorrect right ? I am assuming he meant FRP past 2025 right ?

if the raptors did not convey this year, the pick was protected 25 and 26, so earliest raptors could have traded was in 28