Aaron Gordon says Scottie Barnes when asked about "guy miscast in role as star who might excel as the ultimate glue guy"

[Brinbe]

A lot of Scottie's value does come from his offensive/defensive and positional versatility and not necessarily his iso scoring prowess but even if he makes continual incremental progress in his current lane, that's not so bad to me. Not every star needs to be in the same mold as USG monsters.





Obviously Magic is the top of this particular lane of player and was a way better talent but he also had the benefit of playing with way better players.

That's part of what IQ/RJ are here for, to be those more primary scorers. I think we'll see more of that this coming season.

But even then, trying to ascribe a ceiling on an allstar going into his 23-year-old season doesn't seem like a particularly smart thing to do. Who knows where his game ends up 3-5 years in his prime

Sometimes we forget what he's capable of doing

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[HumbleRen]

In the end Scotties not a superstar and there's nothing wrong with that. An NBA champion like Gordon knows that a whole lot better then a bunch of tankers on here do.

I think this validates the portion of the board who have been called 'nuts' for suggesting that Barnes wouldnt be the one to take us to the promise land.

And remember he is the one we tanked for.....so let's think twice before we go scorched earth with this team.

He's trending to be a superstar. Just not an elite scorer.

Is there any superstars in the league right now that aren’t elite scorers ?

-

[alpngso]

Scottie is sort of like box to box midfielder in soccer who can cover a lot of ground be the cog in the middle of the pitch/court. Winning possessions, connecting plays. probably lacks scoring punch of forwards up front but can provide it if needed. Raps need a on ball creator who create and finish on their own at a high level consistently

[Shakril]

Read on Twitter

Truly my worst Raptors nightmare.

We will see it next season if thats true. This time there are no excuses anymore, either he breaks through and leads this team to success or he is not a #1 guy.

[TheGeneral99]

In the end Scotties not a superstar and there's nothing wrong with that. An NBA champion like Gordon knows that a whole lot better then a bunch of tankers on here do.

I think this validates the portion of the board who have been called 'nuts' for suggesting that Barnes wouldnt be the one to take us to the promise land.

And remember he is the one we tanked for.....so let's think twice before we go scorched earth with this team.

He's trending to be a superstar. Just not an elite scorer.

Is there any superstars in the league right now that aren’t elite scorers ?

-

The obvious guy is Giannis. While he puts up 30ppg, I wouldn't characterize him as an "elite scorer" because most of his points come in the paint. This was similar to Lebron for a significant chunk of his career.

I think was Scottie it's hard to tell. He's only 22 years old and during the first half of last season, he hit the 3 at a very efficient rate.

The key will be can Scottie sustain that 3 point shooting while developing a refined mid-range game with elite level footwork and variety of moves and counters.

He's already an excellent rebounder and passer, but the next stage is to tighten his handle a bit and develop that mid-range game.

[TheGeneral99]

In the end Scotties not a superstar and there's nothing wrong with that. An NBA champion like Gordon knows that a whole lot better then a bunch of tankers on here do.

I think this validates the portion of the board who have been called 'nuts' for suggesting that Barnes wouldnt be the one to take us to the promise land.

And remember he is the one we tanked for.....so let's think twice before we go scorched earth with this team.

Just because someone is a great player doesn't mean they are great judge of talent, especially with players that they don't play with.

Remember Durant calling Kawhi a system player back in 2014 that was only really good because of the Spurs?

We've seen a ton of NBA player analysts these days make some of the most horrible hot takes about players I've ever seen. Look at all the disrespect a guy like Jokic has been getting.

[dTox]

In the end Scotties not a superstar and there's nothing wrong with that. An NBA champion like Gordon knows that a whole lot better then a bunch of tankers on here do.

I think this validates the portion of the board who have been called 'nuts' for suggesting that Barnes wouldnt be the one to take us to the promise land.

And remember he is the one we tanked for.....so let's think twice before we go scorched earth with this team.

Then what are your thoughts on KD and Tatum saying otherwise?

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[Harry Palmer]

I’ll say something a bit more optimistic; you can’t really learn to be sudden…cleaning up your handle can help but imo that’s not really the source of the issue with Scottie, he’s not usually getting ahead of his dribble…but the second best thing he could add to propel him higher in the stratosphere just happens to be arguably the easiest skill to develop later, ie shooting. If he puts the work in and has no fundamental or confidence issues, that path forward is the most realistic. Not super ideal in terms of defensibility, but otoh team’s having to play up more will give him an extra half-step.

[WaltFrazier]

I’ll say something a bit more optimistic; you can’t really learn to be sudden…cleaning up your handle can help but imo that’s not really the source of the issue with Scottie, he’s not usually getting ahead of his dribble…but the second best thing he could add to propel him higher in the stratosphere just happens to be arguably the easiest skill to develop later, ie shooting. If he puts the work in and has no fundamental or confidence issues, that path forward is the most realistic. Not super ideal in terms of defensibility, but otoh team’s having to play up more will give him an extra half-step.

He should study Brunson's moves handle and footwork. Similarly not quick and explosive but gets where he wants to go and has a finishing touch. Imagine a 6'9 guy with that package of moves.

[HumbleRen]

He's trending to be a superstar. Just not an elite scorer.

Is there any superstars in the league right now that aren’t elite scorers ?

-

The obvious guy is Giannis. While he puts up 30ppg, I wouldn't characterize him as an "elite scorer" because most of his points come in the paint. This was similar to Lebron for a significant chunk of his career.

I think was Scottie it's hard to tell. He's only 22 years old and during the first half of last season, he hit the 3 at a very efficient rate.

The key will be can Scottie sustain that 3 point shooting while developing a refined mid-range game with elite level footwork and variety of moves and counters.

He's already an excellent rebounder and passer, but the next stage is to tighten his handle a bit and develop that mid-range game.

I would absolutely say Giannis is an elite scorer, young Lebron too.

They just aren’t elite shot creators which is the difference.

Scottie unfortunately doesn’t have their luxury, he isn’t some generational athlete that can overcome their deficiencies in shot creation by basically being top 1% in paint scoring like Lebron/Giannis can.

His path to superstardom is like you said in your post, stronger ball handling ability and a mid range game. I think Scottie has some latent mid range ability because I think he does has a nice touch but he needs to be much more aggressive with it.

[TheGeneral99]

Is there any superstars in the league right now that aren’t elite scorers ?

-

The obvious guy is Giannis. While he puts up 30ppg, I wouldn't characterize him as an "elite scorer" because most of his points come in the paint. This was similar to Lebron for a significant chunk of his career.

I think was Scottie it's hard to tell. He's only 22 years old and during the first half of last season, he hit the 3 at a very efficient rate.

The key will be can Scottie sustain that 3 point shooting while developing a refined mid-range game with elite level footwork and variety of moves and counters.

He's already an excellent rebounder and passer, but the next stage is to tighten his handle a bit and develop that mid-range game.

I would absolutely say Giannis is an elite scorer, young Lebron too.

They just aren’t elite shot creators which is the difference.

Scottie unfortunately doesn’t have their luxury, he isn’t some generational athlete that can overcome their deficiencies in shot creation by basically being top 1% in paint scoring like Lebron/Giannis can.

His path to superstardom is like you said in your post, stronger ball handling ability and a mid range game. I think Scottie has some latent mid range ability because I think he does has a nice touch but he needs to be much more aggressive with it.

Well Giannis didn't become a 30ppg scorer right away and he's still fairly average when it comes to shot creation.

In year 4 Giannis averaged 22ppg and in year 5 he averaged 27ppg.

Scottie in year 3 averaged 20ppg. We will see if he can take another leap in year 4.

Now while Scottie isn't as imposing physically as Giannis, what makes him different is his vision.

I think if Scottie can become a 25ppg player with a solid offensive repertoire and also averages something like 8apg and 8rpg, that is definitely superstar material. Very few players apart from Luka, Jokic, Lebron and Shai can average those numbers. Of course he may need a very nice secondary clutch scorer (like Jamal Murray with Jokic for instance or Kyrie with Lebron) to really be utilized most effectively.

[wegotthabeet]

I have to agree...I watched barnes play and he doesn't have the scoring bag

neither did Kawhi after year 3 or DeMar.

[DG88]

For those having doubts about Scottie, Aaron Gordon can't do this stuff and Scottie is only getting better.

Toronto’s best player at snaking pick and rolls was, unsurprisingly, Scottie Barnes. (Unsurprising because he was more or less Toronto’s best player in every area last season.)

He turned his snakes into rim attacks, very often keeping his feet moving towards the rim even as his body, and the ball, might be changing directions. And because of his incredible size and length, a paint touch generally meant a layup attempt, no matter who was guarding him. That’s not the case for guys like Quickley — if a big is in front of Quickley, that often means a layup attempt will be a bad idea. It doesn’t really matter who is in front of Barnes.

Unlike Quickley, Barnes was statistically terrific against directionally focused pick coverages. He averaged at least 1.0 points per chance against all types of weak and ice coverages, and up to 1.2 against some. (As a reminder, Quickley didn’t crack 0.9.) Barnes reads the floor much faster than Quickley, and he used defensive preferences against opposing shells. Against ice coverage, forcing Barnes baseline, he frequently manipulated direction either before using the action, with spins into the screen or as it evolved, with snakes. Defenses tried to control direction, but Barnes generally won that duel. The hesitation Quickley showed against such coverages was completely absent for Barnes.

But Barnes used snaking against other coverages, too. Barnes used that change of direction as a weapon to drag the screener defender away from the rim and create cutting lanes for his bigs against an ill-protected paint. Though drop defense doesn’t yield as much fertile soil for snaking as weaking or icing, it also has its benefits: opening up a wider rolling lane for the screener. Barnes was terrific at using snakes to do just that against drops. He is a master floor reader, and even though his handle isn’t at the level it needs to be, he is such a brilliant mind on the court that he can still employ tools like snaking to great impact. (And his handle improved greatly last season, too.)

Even though Barnes saw defenses switch less frequently against his picks last season than the one before, he still saw a switching frequency among the top 40 players in the league. (In 2022-23, his picks were defended by switching just over a third of the time, and that shrank to just under a third in 2023-24.) Yet he was much more effective at beating those switches. His jumper was cleaner, and his ability to create from a standstill against a mismatch was improved as well. Snaking won’t help him too often against switches, but it will be a benefit if he forces defenses to switch even less frequently.

The best offenses can control defensive coverages. In chess, white moves first. And by selecting lines, series of moves, white can force black to respond in certain ways, through certain coverages. Decide the pathway through which the game will travel. Basketball is similar. If one pick-and-roll coverage works, defenses will use it until it is beaten. But if offenses have an answer, they can force defenses to respond in certain ways. If you always have an answer, then you win the championship.

The better Barnes gets at beating switches, at creating his own offense with a live dribble against mismatches and forcing doubles, the more weaking, icing, and drop he’ll see. Which in turn will give him more opportunity to manipulate those lines across the court, to use east-west movement and change of pace to switch lines towards the rim. He’s already terrific at it. He just needs more opportunity to use those strengths.

https://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2024/05/17/the-head-of-the-snake-torontos-missing-pick-and-roll-approach/

Now this is a full post on Quickley and Scottie in PnR mainly about snaking the pick and roll. Quickley isn't that good at it why Scottie is very good and has areas to improve to make it more dangerous. Let's not put a cap on Scottie folks.

[dTox]

So far, based on trajectory, and what he's done thus far at year 3, he is well on his way to superstardom, just compare year 3 Scottie vs year 3 Giannis, Tatum, Joker, and you will see he's either ahead or not that far off.

[DG88]

So far, based on trajectory, and what he's done thus far at year 3, he is well on his way to superstardom, just compare year 3 Scottie vs year 3 Giannis, Tatum, Joker, and you will see he's either ahead or not that far off.

For me the main thing is that his BB IQ is super high and those players end up being stars that last in this league. Add the physical tools to that and you have a great canvas to develop a star player.

[MiamiSPX]

At the end of the day. we landed the best player from his draft class. After 3 years, I bet 25 of 30 GMs take Barnes 1st in a re-draft. He does too many things well and doing them at that size is tantalizing.

Will he be a superstar or top 10 player? That remains to be seen, but even if there are doubts, you don't just discard a player like that so soon because he's not a "true #1". We gave Siakam many years to show without a shadow of a doubt that he was not that guy. Barnes will get the same leash. And if he's not that guy, then we look for one like 20 other teams are constantly doing.

[HumbleRen]

So far, based on trajectory, and what he's done thus far at year 3, he is well on his way to superstardom, just compare year 3 Scottie vs year 3 Giannis, Tatum, Joker, and you will see he's either ahead or not that far off.

Major caveat though, Giannis had generational athleticism at his height, Jokic had mind boggling efficiency by his third year with 0 holes in his game outside of defence.

Tatum is probably the closest comp but even Tatum was much more refined than Scottie was at his age. Was the best player on a team that knocked out one of the best Raptors teams of all time. Even despite that, some would say Tatum isn’t even a true superstar yet which is probably true.

I think Scottie is on his way to being an all nba caliber player but superstardom ? Gotta see way more than that. Someone like Anthony Edwards who’s the same age as Scottie is on his way to superstardom.

[dTox]

So far, based on trajectory, and what he's done thus far at year 3, he is well on his way to superstardom, just compare year 3 Scottie vs year 3 Giannis, Tatum, Joker, and you will see he's either ahead or not that far off.

Major caveat though, Giannis had generational athleticism at his height, Jokic had mind boggling efficiency by his third year with 0 holes in his game outside of defence.

Scottie has superior shot making skills, IQ, and vision vs Giannis at the same age, and again, his numbers have been superior to Giannis thus far. Jokic had mind boggling efficiency, but Scottie has been a far superior defenders at the same age, we can cherry pick what strengths to highlight but let's not ignore Scottie's strength at the same time.

Tatum is probably the closest comp but even Tatum was much more refined than Scottie was at his age. Was the best player on a team that knocked out one of the best Raptors teams of all time. Even despite that, some would say Tatum isn’t even a true superstar yet which is probably true.

Tatum did not have the same level of court vision, defense and ability to finish near the rim as Scottie, he is a better scorer I'l give him that, but that doesn't make him the better player in the same age. Regarding team success, hyave you seen the roster that Scottie had to play with in year 3 vs Tatum?

I think Scottie is on his way to being an all nba caliber player but superstardom ? Gotta see way more than that. Someone like Anthony Edwards who’s the same age as Scottie is on his way to superstardom.

How can you say that with such certainty when he's so far produced similar results to that of an up and coming star?

I am not 100% certain that Scottie will become a #1 scoring option on a contending team, but that doesn't mean he's incapable of being a superstar player, Giannis and Joker are not the go-to scorers during crunch times in their respective teams.

[anotherhomer]

For those having doubts about Scottie, Aaron Gordon can't do this stuff and Scottie is only getting better.

Toronto’s best player at snaking pick and rolls was, unsurprisingly, Scottie Barnes. (Unsurprising because he was more or less Toronto’s best player in every area last season.)

He turned his snakes into rim attacks, very often keeping his feet moving towards the rim even as his body, and the ball, might be changing directions. And because of his incredible size and length, a paint touch generally meant a layup attempt, no matter who was guarding him. That’s not the case for guys like Quickley — if a big is in front of Quickley, that often means a layup attempt will be a bad idea. It doesn’t really matter who is in front of Barnes.

Unlike Quickley, Barnes was statistically terrific against directionally focused pick coverages. He averaged at least 1.0 points per chance against all types of weak and ice coverages, and up to 1.2 against some. (As a reminder, Quickley didn’t crack 0.9.) Barnes reads the floor much faster than Quickley, and he used defensive preferences against opposing shells. Against ice coverage, forcing Barnes baseline, he frequently manipulated direction either before using the action, with spins into the screen or as it evolved, with snakes. Defenses tried to control direction, but Barnes generally won that duel. The hesitation Quickley showed against such coverages was completely absent for Barnes.

But Barnes used snaking against other coverages, too. Barnes used that change of direction as a weapon to drag the screener defender away from the rim and create cutting lanes for his bigs against an ill-protected paint. Though drop defense doesn’t yield as much fertile soil for snaking as weaking or icing, it also has its benefits: opening up a wider rolling lane for the screener. Barnes was terrific at using snakes to do just that against drops. He is a master floor reader, and even though his handle isn’t at the level it needs to be, he is such a brilliant mind on the court that he can still employ tools like snaking to great impact. (And his handle improved greatly last season, too.)

Even though Barnes saw defenses switch less frequently against his picks last season than the one before, he still saw a switching frequency among the top 40 players in the league. (In 2022-23, his picks were defended by switching just over a third of the time, and that shrank to just under a third in 2023-24.) Yet he was much more effective at beating those switches. His jumper was cleaner, and his ability to create from a standstill against a mismatch was improved as well. Snaking won’t help him too often against switches, but it will be a benefit if he forces defenses to switch even less frequently.

The best offenses can control defensive coverages. In chess, white moves first. And by selecting lines, series of moves, white can force black to respond in certain ways, through certain coverages. Decide the pathway through which the game will travel. Basketball is similar. If one pick-and-roll coverage works, defenses will use it until it is beaten. But if offenses have an answer, they can force defenses to respond in certain ways. If you always have an answer, then you win the championship.

The better Barnes gets at beating switches, at creating his own offense with a live dribble against mismatches and forcing doubles, the more weaking, icing, and drop he’ll see. Which in turn will give him more opportunity to manipulate those lines across the court, to use east-west movement and change of pace to switch lines towards the rim. He’s already terrific at it. He just needs more opportunity to use those strengths.

https://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2024/05/17/the-head-of-the-snake-torontos-missing-pick-and-roll-approach/

Now this is a full post on Quickley and Scottie in PnR mainly about snaking the pick and roll. Quickley isn't that good at it why Scottie is very good and has areas to improve to make it more dangerous. Let's not put a cap on Scottie folks.

I would love to be wrong about scottie....

[HumbleRen]

So far, based on trajectory, and what he's done thus far at year 3, he is well on his way to superstardom, just compare year 3 Scottie vs year 3 Giannis, Tatum, Joker, and you will see he's either ahead or not that far off.

Major caveat though, Giannis had generational athleticism at his height, Jokic had mind boggling efficiency by his third year with 0 holes in his game outside of defence.

Scottie has superior shot making skills, IQ, and vision vs Giannis at the same age, and again, his numbers have been superior to Giannis thus far. Jokic had mind boggling efficiency, but Scottie has been a far superior defenders at the same age, we can cherry pick what strengths to highlight but let's not ignore Scottie's strength at the same time.

Tatum is probably the closest comp but even Tatum was much more refined than Scottie was at his age. Was the best player on a team that knocked out one of the best Raptors teams of all time. Even despite that, some would say Tatum isn’t even a true superstar yet which is probably true.

Tatum did not have the same level of court vision, defense and ability to finish near the rim as Scottie, he is a better scorer I'l give him that, but that doesn't make him the better player in the same age. Regarding team success, hyave you seen the roster that Scottie had to play with in year 3 vs Tatum?

I think Scottie is on his way to being an all nba caliber player but superstardom ? Gotta see way more than that. Someone like Anthony Edwards who’s the same age as Scottie is on his way to superstardom.

How can you say that with such certainty when he's so far produced similar results to that of an up and coming star?

I am not 100% certain that Scottie will become a #1 scoring option on a contending team, but that doesn't mean he's incapable of being a superstar player, Giannis and Joker are not the go-to scorers during crunch times in their respective teams.

Scottie having better vision and “a bag” over Giannis means nothing when Giannis has athleticism that no 7 footer ever had before.

As for your Jokic rebuttal, I don’t think that’s an intelligent point at all. Scottie being a superior defensive player than Jokic doesn’t close the gap at all on offence. It’s a rather meaningless point lol.

Who exactly was Tatum playing with when he beat the Raptors in the playoffs ? It was one of the worst rosters that’s beeb apart of this Tatum era. His starting center was Daniel Theis and 6th man was Brad Wanamaker lmao.

The rosters that Scottie has been on in the last 3 years have been much more talented than that Celtics roster that went to the ECF. Not really buying that excuse.

Scottie is very talented and is on his way to being an all time unique player but that doesn’t necessarily mean superstardom. To be one, he has to be a high end scorer, there’s no escaping that, it doesn’t matter how good he is at other things, he needs to be a dominant scorer to be one.

Even Jokic and Lebron realized they had to be the best scorers on their team despite being passing savants.