Masai messed up but deserves another chance

[Clay Davis]

It sucks that we're rebuilding in Scottie's 4th-7th years as a player rather than his 1st-3rd. I think that having winning seasons was good for his rizz... but is this good for his personal timeline as a player? It's one thing to have your first rookie contract be under a rebuilding team, but your first NBA contract? I imagine that it's a tough pill to swallow.

I kind of feel like the worst part of Masai's miscalculation with the OG-Siakam-FVV-Barnes core was that it could have a subtext that Scottie's development and timeline was less important than what was (let's be honest) taking a chance with a middling roster.

Rizz development notwithstanding, this is one of my biggest concerns. Starting the rebuild in your franchise player's 4th year is not what you want to be doing. Especially if he looks more like a 1B.

At this point, he's either going to be too good to allow the team to bring in another blue chipper in the draft, or we're still a bottom 5 team with him in years 4 and 5, in which case he's probably not the guy to build around.

He's not going to be past his prime or anything like that, but people freaked out about the timeline for Scottie/Pascal. Scottie and the 2025/2026 picks will be a bit closer, but if we have to wait until Scottie is 27 for the next guy to start being productive, we'll just be having those conversations again.

[Scase]

This is crazy lol

We literally got a franchise cornerstone with the 4th pick and Gradey who turned the corner by the end of the season from 13. Were you expecting Jokic and Ginobili caliber players from the Koloko and Banton selections? Flynn was a miss but which team besides Memphis drafted a better player after him?

I can understand being critical of not maximizing the trade value of our former players or building through the draft, but lamenting the lack of success from late first and second round draft selections is insane

Please read before commenting. We’re referring to finding gems via the draft, free agency, or trades. We previously hit on OG, FVV, Siakam, Norm. What have we done since then? I’m here all night…

So you're using the FO's past success against them lol. Do you have examples of gems found by all other 29 teams?

Caleb Martin
Gabe Vincent
Naz Reid
Jaden McDaniels
Donte DiVincenzo
Mitchell Robinson
Isaiah Hartenstein
Jalen Brunson
Josh Hart
Andrew Nembhard
Daniel Gafford
Sam Hauser
Payton Pritchard
Derrick White
Aaron Wiggins
Jaylin Williams
Isaiah Joe

And I could go on. Pick damn near ANY playoff team and you will find an abundance of players drafted late late first rounds, second rounds, undrafted, traded for and started performing and so on.

Damn near the entire Knicks playoff run was off the backs of players that no one identified as producers at their current level. OKC has a ton of uplift from guys off the bench drafted late in the first and in the second rounds.

Just because you don't care to notice, doesn't mean they don't exist.

[Clay Davis]

Please read before commenting. We’re referring to finding gems via the draft, free agency, or trades. We previously hit on OG, FVV, Siakam, Norm. What have we done since then? I’m here all night…

So you're using the FO's past success against them lol. Do you have examples of gems found by all other 29 teams?

Caleb Martin
Gabe Vincent
Naz Reid
Jaden McDaniels
Donte DiVincenzo
Mitchell Robinson
Isaiah Hartenstein
Jalen Brunson
Josh Hart
Andrew Nembhard
Daniel Gafford
Sam Hauser
Payton Pritchard
Derrick White
Aaron Wiggins
Jaylin Williams
Isaiah Joe

And I could go on. Pick damn near ANY playoff team and you will find an abundance of players drafted late late first rounds, second rounds, undrafted, traded for and started performing and so on.

Damn near the entire Knicks playoff run was off the backs of players that no one identified as producers at their current level. OKC has a ton of uplift from guys off the bench drafted late in the first and in the second rounds.

Just because you don't care to notice, doesn't mean they don't exist.

I don't disagree with you, but I think there are cases where it's actually easier for good teams to draft late than teams like ours. Because good teams are good (duh), they have an idea of two things: (i) what makes them good; (ii) what their weaknesses are. Since their rizz-quilt is developed, they have an idea of what criteria they are looking for in prospective members of their team and how they can contribute. I think that for teams like the early 2000s Spurs, for instance, a guy drafted for his cultural fit will make him look a lot better than the Raptors drafting that same player. Not just because they have a system to plug him into that'll give him better looks, but because of symbiotic relationships he'll have with other high performers who have the culture. The culture will unlock that player's development.

So I've argued that culture is actually a developmental tool in itself, which I guess this brings us to another dimension of this discussion: to what extent is it preferable to tank at the expense of culture? Teams like the Spurs, Celtics, and Heat, I imagine, can tank for as long as they want and never lose their culture. Is it the same for us? Is there a sense in which it's commendable that Masai never resigned us to a culture of mediocrity? Personally, I'm glad that he didn't, since I'm very, very afraid of falling back into the depths of mediocrity that we unfortunately got used to in the years preceding Masai.

[djsunyc]

or this?

Watch on YouTube

[ATLTimekeeper]

Rizz development notwithstanding, this is one of my biggest concerns. Starting the rebuild in your franchise player's 4th year is not what you want to be doing. Especially if he looks more like a 1B.

At this point, he's either going to be too good to allow the team to bring in another blue chipper in the draft, or we're still a bottom 5 team with him in years 4 and 5, in which case he's probably not the guy to build around.

He's not going to be past his prime or anything like that, but people freaked out about the timeline for Scottie/Pascal. Scottie and the 2025/2026 picks will be a bit closer, but if we have to wait until Scottie is 27 for the next guy to start being productive, we'll just be having those conversations again.

On the other hand, you're really just wasting 1 year to see if Scottie can do it v. several as a nascent player in the NBA. Then you can switch to building like we did with DeMar/Kyle and Pascal/Fred.

At this point, Masai has no good picks and no trades that have to be made. There's nothing he can really 'screw up' in the next year, because he's already made those mistakes. I wouldn't re-up him until it looks like he's been proven right on some of his bigger bets, though.

We didn't just start rebuilding. We've been rebuilding since 2020 AND trying to win at the same time. Lately, Masai has been mirroring the Colangelo era strategy of expending draft capital for win-now vets with a revolving door of bench players, plus other forms of throwing things at the wall to see what sticks.

So we're doing it again next year with BBQ + Poeltl to see if this is a winning formula until around trade deadline to tank the remaining season or not. I just hope he finally stops selling on the draft because he seems to be pretty good at drafting.

We started rebuilding this past season. Trying to win at the same time is trying to win.

[ConSarnit]

Project 6'9 was a paper project.

Project 6'9'' was an invention of the internet. Our PG was very famously not 6'9'', for example.

All 15 players on the roster weren't 6'9, this means it was a figment of people's imagination.

"Project 6'9" only exists because we drafted Barnes, who is 6'9. None of this talk exists if we draft Suggs at 4. All this hand wringing over project 6'9 failing: would you guys have rather drafted a worse player? Because that was the other option here, and that makes our team worse.

I sure as hell hope that if that BPA at #19 this year is 6'9 that we draft that player.

[2019nbachamps]

So you're using the FO's past success against them lol. Do you have examples of gems found by all other 29 teams?

Caleb Martin
Gabe Vincent
Naz Reid
Jaden McDaniels
Donte DiVincenzo
Mitchell Robinson
Isaiah Hartenstein
Jalen Brunson
Josh Hart
Andrew Nembhard
Daniel Gafford
Sam Hauser
Payton Pritchard
Derrick White
Aaron Wiggins
Jaylin Williams
Isaiah Joe

And I could go on. Pick damn near ANY playoff team and you will find an abundance of players drafted late late first rounds, second rounds, undrafted, traded for and started performing and so on.

Damn near the entire Knicks playoff run was off the backs of players that no one identified as producers at their current level. OKC has a ton of uplift from guys off the bench drafted late in the first and in the second rounds.

Just because you don't care to notice, doesn't mean they don't exist.

I don't disagree with you, but I think there are cases where it's actually easier for good teams to draft late than teams like ours. Because good teams are good (duh), they have an idea of two things: (i) what makes them good; (ii) what their weaknesses are. Since their rizz-quilt is developed, they have an idea of what criteria they are looking for in prospective members of their team and how they can contribute. I think that for teams like the early 2000s Spurs, for instance, a guy drafted for his cultural fit will make him look a lot better than the Raptors drafting that same player. Not just because they have a system to plug him into that'll give him better looks, but because of symbiotic relationships he'll have with other high performers who have the culture. The culture will unlock that player's development.

So I've argued that culture is actually a developmental tool in itself, which I guess this brings us to another dimension of this discussion: to what extent is it preferable to tank at the expense of culture? Teams like the Spurs, Celtics, and Heat, I imagine, can tank for as long as they want and never lose their culture. Is it the same for us? Is there a sense in which it's commendable that Masai never resigned us to a culture of mediocrity? Personally, I'm glad that he didn't, since I'm very, very afraid of falling back into the depths of mediocrity that we unfortunately got used to in the years preceding Masai.

I think your first point is a bit circular. Good teams are good because of their eye for talent. Yes it can be easier to draft based on need but what has stopped us from doing the same the past 5 years? Actually, we’ve tried. Matt Thomas was brought in to shoot, Baynes and Len to shore up our front court, Thad to add wing depth, etc etc. Our FO has just whiffed on everyone. I’ll say that we have a disadvantage compared to more attractive markets getting free agents including undrafted players but that didn’t stop us before from identifying gems. Our FO’s talent assessment approach hasn’t been effective the past 5 years. They need to go back to the drawing board. Shieeeeeeeeetttttttttt

[Scase]

So you're using the FO's past success against them lol. Do you have examples of gems found by all other 29 teams?

Caleb Martin
Gabe Vincent
Naz Reid
Jaden McDaniels
Donte DiVincenzo
Mitchell Robinson
Isaiah Hartenstein
Jalen Brunson
Josh Hart
Andrew Nembhard
Daniel Gafford
Sam Hauser
Payton Pritchard
Derrick White
Aaron Wiggins
Jaylin Williams
Isaiah Joe

And I could go on. Pick damn near ANY playoff team and you will find an abundance of players drafted late late first rounds, second rounds, undrafted, traded for and started performing and so on.

Damn near the entire Knicks playoff run was off the backs of players that no one identified as producers at their current level. OKC has a ton of uplift from guys off the bench drafted late in the first and in the second rounds.

Just because you don't care to notice, doesn't mean they don't exist.

I don't disagree with you, but I think there are cases where it's actually easier for good teams to draft late than teams like ours. Because good teams are good (duh), they have an idea of two things: (i) what makes them good; (ii) what their weaknesses are. Since their rizz-quilt is developed, they have an idea of what criteria they are looking for in prospective members of their team and how they can contribute. I think that for teams like the early 2000s Spurs, for instance, a guy drafted for his cultural fit will make him look a lot better than the Raptors drafting that same player. Not just because they have a system to plug him into that'll give him better looks, but because of symbiotic relationships he'll have with other high performers who have the culture. The culture will unlock that player's development.

So I've argued that culture is actually a developmental tool in itself, which I guess this brings us to another dimension of this discussion: to what extent is it preferable to tank at the expense of culture? Teams like the Spurs, Celtics, and Heat, I imagine, can tank for as long as they want and never lose their culture. Is it the same for us? Is there a sense in which it's commendable that Masai never resigned us to a culture of mediocrity? Personally, I'm glad that he didn't, since I'm very, very afraid of falling back into the depths of mediocrity that we unfortunately got used to in the years preceding Masai.

All absolutely valid points. The issue I have, is that Masai is constantly lauded for his ability to find these players, he's won a chip, so he knows what it takes to win/be good.

He seemingly has all this DNA already, so then why are we still coming up short constantly?

As for us sacrificing culture. Our culture was gone the moment the ink dried and KL was a member of the Miami heat. The culture is supposed to come from the top down, but you still need "generals" in the army to embody and continue on that culture. That's been gone for years, and we've been mediocre and trending to bad for years. So at this point what do we do? Continue struggling trying to maintain some misguided semblance of culture that no longer exists, or do we suck it up, eat ****, and put ourselves in the best position possible to acquire elite talent.

Luka is whiny as all hell, and people complain about it all the time, but I'd rather have a guy with a substandard culture fit, who is one of the best basketball players in the world, than continue to try and build a championship contending team from the 12th place in the lotto.

The depths of mediocrity you are concerned about, are happening in front of our eyes. Masai as of late has been making some VERY Collangelo-esque moves, I know he's better than that, you know he's better than that. But it's still happening. The roster has become a revolving door of bad to mediocre undrafted/SRP players that never amount to anything, for years. We've lost players for nothing, we've made erroneous signings/trades that have cost us, and we've let the players and rest of the NBA dictate what we do.

This is not the same FO from 10 years ago IMO. But if everyone wants to keep saying how the FO is great and better than most of the NBA, it's time to actually prove it again. You don't need the highest paid FO in the league to get a banger of a pick with a top 5 lotto pick, you need them to find the hidden players.

[disoblige]

Im pretty sure Barrett and Quickley qualifies as gems which we got for an expiring non allstar player. And Barnes for the 4th pick.

[Clay Davis]

Caleb Martin
Gabe Vincent
Naz Reid
Jaden McDaniels
Donte DiVincenzo
Mitchell Robinson
Isaiah Hartenstein
Jalen Brunson
Josh Hart
Andrew Nembhard
Daniel Gafford
Sam Hauser
Payton Pritchard
Derrick White
Aaron Wiggins
Jaylin Williams
Isaiah Joe

And I could go on. Pick damn near ANY playoff team and you will find an abundance of players drafted late late first rounds, second rounds, undrafted, traded for and started performing and so on.

Damn near the entire Knicks playoff run was off the backs of players that no one identified as producers at their current level. OKC has a ton of uplift from guys off the bench drafted late in the first and in the second rounds.

Just because you don't care to notice, doesn't mean they don't exist.

I don't disagree with you, but I think there are cases where it's actually easier for good teams to draft late than teams like ours. Because good teams are good (duh), they have an idea of two things: (i) what makes them good; (ii) what their weaknesses are. Since their rizz-quilt is developed, they have an idea of what criteria they are looking for in prospective members of their team and how they can contribute. I think that for teams like the early 2000s Spurs, for instance, a guy drafted for his cultural fit will make him look a lot better than the Raptors drafting that same player. Not just because they have a system to plug him into that'll give him better looks, but because of symbiotic relationships he'll have with other high performers who have the culture. The culture will unlock that player's development.

So I've argued that culture is actually a developmental tool in itself, which I guess this brings us to another dimension of this discussion: to what extent is it preferable to tank at the expense of culture? Teams like the Spurs, Celtics, and Heat, I imagine, can tank for as long as they want and never lose their culture. Is it the same for us? Is there a sense in which it's commendable that Masai never resigned us to a culture of mediocrity? Personally, I'm glad that he didn't, since I'm very, very afraid of falling back into the depths of mediocrity that we unfortunately got used to in the years preceding Masai.

I think your first point is a bit circular. Good teams are good because of their eye for talent. Yes it can be easier to draft based on need but what has stopped us from doing the same the past 5 years? Actually, we’ve tried. Matt Thomas was brought in to shoot, Baynes and Len to shore up our front court, Thad to add wing depth, etc etc. Our FO has just whiffed on everyone. I’ll say that we have a disadvantage compared to more attractive markets getting free agents including undrafted players but that didn’t stop us before from identifying gems. Our FO’s talent assessment approach hasn’t been effective the past 5 years. They need to go back to the drawing board. Shieeeeeeeeetttttttttt

WELL SAID... Now let ME tell ya somethin' partner! you got the rizz of a fineeeee stallion and the rhetorical kick to match! My campaign could use a man like you, what do you say?

[Clay Davis]

Caleb Martin
Gabe Vincent
Naz Reid
Jaden McDaniels
Donte DiVincenzo
Mitchell Robinson
Isaiah Hartenstein
Jalen Brunson
Josh Hart
Andrew Nembhard
Daniel Gafford
Sam Hauser
Payton Pritchard
Derrick White
Aaron Wiggins
Jaylin Williams
Isaiah Joe

And I could go on. Pick damn near ANY playoff team and you will find an abundance of players drafted late late first rounds, second rounds, undrafted, traded for and started performing and so on.

Damn near the entire Knicks playoff run was off the backs of players that no one identified as producers at their current level. OKC has a ton of uplift from guys off the bench drafted late in the first and in the second rounds.

Just because you don't care to notice, doesn't mean they don't exist.

I don't disagree with you, but I think there are cases where it's actually easier for good teams to draft late than teams like ours. Because good teams are good (duh), they have an idea of two things: (i) what makes them good; (ii) what their weaknesses are. Since their rizz-quilt is developed, they have an idea of what criteria they are looking for in prospective members of their team and how they can contribute. I think that for teams like the early 2000s Spurs, for instance, a guy drafted for his cultural fit will make him look a lot better than the Raptors drafting that same player. Not just because they have a system to plug him into that'll give him better looks, but because of symbiotic relationships he'll have with other high performers who have the culture. The culture will unlock that player's development.

So I've argued that culture is actually a developmental tool in itself, which I guess this brings us to another dimension of this discussion: to what extent is it preferable to tank at the expense of culture? Teams like the Spurs, Celtics, and Heat, I imagine, can tank for as long as they want and never lose their culture. Is it the same for us? Is there a sense in which it's commendable that Masai never resigned us to a culture of mediocrity? Personally, I'm glad that he didn't, since I'm very, very afraid of falling back into the depths of mediocrity that we unfortunately got used to in the years preceding Masai.

All absolutely valid points. The issue I have, is that Masai is constantly lauded for his ability to find these players, he's won a chip, so he knows what it takes to win/be good.

He seemingly has all this DNA already, so then why are we still coming up short constantly?

As for us sacrificing culture. Our culture was gone the moment the ink dried and KL was a member of the Miami heat. The culture is supposed to come from the top down, but you still need "generals" in the army to embody and continue on that culture. That's been gone for years, and we've been mediocre and trending to bad for years. So at this point what do we do? Continue struggling trying to maintain some misguided semblance of culture that no longer exists, or do we suck it up, eat ****, and put ourselves in the best position possible to acquire elite talent.

Luka is whiny as all hell, and people complain about it all the time, but I'd rather have a guy with a substandard culture fit, who is one of the best basketball players in the world, than continue to try and build a championship contending team from the 12th place in the lotto.

The depths of mediocrity you are concerned about, are happening in front of our eyes. Masai as of late has been making some VERY Collangelo-esque moves, I know he's better than that, you know he's better than that. But it's still happening. The roster has become a revolving door of bad to mediocre undrafted/SRP players that never amount to anything, for years. We've lost players for nothing, we've made erroneous signings/trades that have cost us, and we've let the players and rest of the NBA dictate what we do.

This is not the same FO from 10 years ago IMO. But if everyone wants to keep saying how the FO is great and better than most of the NBA, it's time to actually prove it again. You don't need the highest paid FO in the league to get a banger of a pick with a top 5 lotto pick, you need them to find the hidden players.

In the words of Bunk Moreland... "makes me sick motherflipper, how far we done fell."

I think that's what's frustrating us the most... that we saw the writing on the wall before Masai did! What happened to his forward-seeing rizz that he couldn't even see the bloated carcass in front of him? And you're right, maybe this is how we consign ourselves to mediocrity... Bryan Colangelo probably didn't even notice how, within the span of about fifteen years, he went from creating one of the best cores of his era -- Stoudamire, Marion, and Nash -- to defending his collars from burner accounts.

[ConSarnit]

Caleb Martin
Gabe Vincent
Naz Reid
Jaden McDaniels
Donte DiVincenzo
Mitchell Robinson
Isaiah Hartenstein
Jalen Brunson
Josh Hart
Andrew Nembhard
Daniel Gafford
Sam Hauser
Payton Pritchard
Derrick White
Aaron Wiggins
Jaylin Williams
Isaiah Joe

And I could go on. Pick damn near ANY playoff team and you will find an abundance of players drafted late late first rounds, second rounds, undrafted, traded for and started performing and so on.

Damn near the entire Knicks playoff run was off the backs of players that no one identified as producers at their current level. OKC has a ton of uplift from guys off the bench drafted late in the first and in the second rounds.

Just because you don't care to notice, doesn't mean they don't exist.

I don't disagree with you, but I think there are cases where it's actually easier for good teams to draft late than teams like ours. Because good teams are good (duh), they have an idea of two things: (i) what makes them good; (ii) what their weaknesses are. Since their rizz-quilt is developed, they have an idea of what criteria they are looking for in prospective members of their team and how they can contribute. I think that for teams like the early 2000s Spurs, for instance, a guy drafted for his cultural fit will make him look a lot better than the Raptors drafting that same player. Not just because they have a system to plug him into that'll give him better looks, but because of symbiotic relationships he'll have with other high performers who have the culture. The culture will unlock that player's development.

So I've argued that culture is actually a developmental tool in itself, which I guess this brings us to another dimension of this discussion: to what extent is it preferable to tank at the expense of culture? Teams like the Spurs, Celtics, and Heat, I imagine, can tank for as long as they want and never lose their culture. Is it the same for us? Is there a sense in which it's commendable that Masai never resigned us to a culture of mediocrity? Personally, I'm glad that he didn't, since I'm very, very afraid of falling back into the depths of mediocrity that we unfortunately got used to in the years preceding Masai.

All absolutely valid points. The issue I have, is that Masai is constantly lauded for his ability to find these players, he's won a chip, so he knows what it takes to win/be good.

He seemingly has all this DNA already, so then why are we still coming up short constantly?

As for us sacrificing culture. Our culture was gone the moment the ink dried and KL was a member of the Miami heat. The culture is supposed to come from the top down, but you still need "generals" in the army to embody and continue on that culture. That's been gone for years, and we've been mediocre and trending to bad for years. So at this point what do we do? Continue struggling trying to maintain some misguided semblance of culture that no longer exists, or do we suck it up, eat ****, and put ourselves in the best position possible to acquire elite talent.

Luka is whiny as all hell, and people complain about it all the time, but I'd rather have a guy with a substandard culture fit, who is one of the best basketball players in the world, than continue to try and build a championship contending team from the 12th place in the lotto.

The depths of mediocrity you are concerned about, are happening in front of our eyes. Masai as of late has been making some VERY Collangelo-esque moves, I know he's better than that, you know he's better than that. But it's still happening. The roster has become a revolving door of bad to mediocre undrafted/SRP players that never amount to anything, for years. We've lost players for nothing, we've made erroneous signings/trades that have cost us, and we've let the players and rest of the NBA dictate what we do.

This is not the same FO from 10 years ago IMO. But if everyone wants to keep saying how the FO is great and better than most of the NBA, it's time to actually prove it again. You don't need the highest paid FO in the league to get a banger of a pick with a top 5 lotto pick, you need them to find the hidden players.

The depth guys/hidden gems you are talking about come from a period that we've missed out on because we had to trade draft assets away to win the title. Look at our draft positions from 2018-2020

2018: none
2019: 59
2020: 29 and 59

Now consider 2015-2017

2015: 20
2016: 9 and 27
2017: 23

The front office almost always drafts above their actual position, it's just that our draft position for 3 straight years was the worst in the league. That was the price of winning a title.

Are we back on track? TBD imo. Barnes was a hit. Dick showed flashes. Koloko looked solid and I can't blame the FO for his medical problems.

Lack of draft assets + Nurse (in large part fired because of his inability to develop) created a development black hole. We'll see if we turned the corner but I don't really have any reason to believe the FO has lost their touch when it comes to drafting.

To me, the sign that this FO has lost it will be repeated win-now moves like the Poeltl trade. It seems like they've acknowledged it as a failure. If they can avoid those I will have confidence in them.

[Scase]

I don't disagree with you, but I think there are cases where it's actually easier for good teams to draft late than teams like ours. Because good teams are good (duh), they have an idea of two things: (i) what makes them good; (ii) what their weaknesses are. Since their rizz-quilt is developed, they have an idea of what criteria they are looking for in prospective members of their team and how they can contribute. I think that for teams like the early 2000s Spurs, for instance, a guy drafted for his cultural fit will make him look a lot better than the Raptors drafting that same player. Not just because they have a system to plug him into that'll give him better looks, but because of symbiotic relationships he'll have with other high performers who have the culture. The culture will unlock that player's development.

So I've argued that culture is actually a developmental tool in itself, which I guess this brings us to another dimension of this discussion: to what extent is it preferable to tank at the expense of culture? Teams like the Spurs, Celtics, and Heat, I imagine, can tank for as long as they want and never lose their culture. Is it the same for us? Is there a sense in which it's commendable that Masai never resigned us to a culture of mediocrity? Personally, I'm glad that he didn't, since I'm very, very afraid of falling back into the depths of mediocrity that we unfortunately got used to in the years preceding Masai.

All absolutely valid points. The issue I have, is that Masai is constantly lauded for his ability to find these players, he's won a chip, so he knows what it takes to win/be good.

He seemingly has all this DNA already, so then why are we still coming up short constantly?

As for us sacrificing culture. Our culture was gone the moment the ink dried and KL was a member of the Miami heat. The culture is supposed to come from the top down, but you still need "generals" in the army to embody and continue on that culture. That's been gone for years, and we've been mediocre and trending to bad for years. So at this point what do we do? Continue struggling trying to maintain some misguided semblance of culture that no longer exists, or do we suck it up, eat ****, and put ourselves in the best position possible to acquire elite talent.

Luka is whiny as all hell, and people complain about it all the time, but I'd rather have a guy with a substandard culture fit, who is one of the best basketball players in the world, than continue to try and build a championship contending team from the 12th place in the lotto.

The depths of mediocrity you are concerned about, are happening in front of our eyes. Masai as of late has been making some VERY Collangelo-esque moves, I know he's better than that, you know he's better than that. But it's still happening. The roster has become a revolving door of bad to mediocre undrafted/SRP players that never amount to anything, for years. We've lost players for nothing, we've made erroneous signings/trades that have cost us, and we've let the players and rest of the NBA dictate what we do.

This is not the same FO from 10 years ago IMO. But if everyone wants to keep saying how the FO is great and better than most of the NBA, it's time to actually prove it again. You don't need the highest paid FO in the league to get a banger of a pick with a top 5 lotto pick, you need them to find the hidden players.

In the words of Bunk Moreland... "makes me sick motherflipper, how far we done fell."

I think that's what's frustrating us the most... that we saw the writing on the wall before Masai did! What happened to his forward-seeing rizz that he couldn't even see the bloated carcass in front of him? And you're right, maybe this is how we consign ourselves to mediocrity... Bryan Colangelo probably didn't even notice how, within the span of about fifteen years, he went from creating one of the best cores of his era -- Stoudamire, Marion, and Nash -- to defending his collars from burner accounts.

‘This is the Way the World Ends: Not with a Bang but a Whimper’

That's what we are witnessing right now, you don't go from chip to bottom 5 in the NBA overnight. It takes a slow and steady decline, maybe he turns it back around who knows, but so far I'm not impressed.

[Scase]

I don't disagree with you, but I think there are cases where it's actually easier for good teams to draft late than teams like ours. Because good teams are good (duh), they have an idea of two things: (i) what makes them good; (ii) what their weaknesses are. Since their rizz-quilt is developed, they have an idea of what criteria they are looking for in prospective members of their team and how they can contribute. I think that for teams like the early 2000s Spurs, for instance, a guy drafted for his cultural fit will make him look a lot better than the Raptors drafting that same player. Not just because they have a system to plug him into that'll give him better looks, but because of symbiotic relationships he'll have with other high performers who have the culture. The culture will unlock that player's development.

So I've argued that culture is actually a developmental tool in itself, which I guess this brings us to another dimension of this discussion: to what extent is it preferable to tank at the expense of culture? Teams like the Spurs, Celtics, and Heat, I imagine, can tank for as long as they want and never lose their culture. Is it the same for us? Is there a sense in which it's commendable that Masai never resigned us to a culture of mediocrity? Personally, I'm glad that he didn't, since I'm very, very afraid of falling back into the depths of mediocrity that we unfortunately got used to in the years preceding Masai.

All absolutely valid points. The issue I have, is that Masai is constantly lauded for his ability to find these players, he's won a chip, so he knows what it takes to win/be good.

He seemingly has all this DNA already, so then why are we still coming up short constantly?

As for us sacrificing culture. Our culture was gone the moment the ink dried and KL was a member of the Miami heat. The culture is supposed to come from the top down, but you still need "generals" in the army to embody and continue on that culture. That's been gone for years, and we've been mediocre and trending to bad for years. So at this point what do we do? Continue struggling trying to maintain some misguided semblance of culture that no longer exists, or do we suck it up, eat ****, and put ourselves in the best position possible to acquire elite talent.

Luka is whiny as all hell, and people complain about it all the time, but I'd rather have a guy with a substandard culture fit, who is one of the best basketball players in the world, than continue to try and build a championship contending team from the 12th place in the lotto.

The depths of mediocrity you are concerned about, are happening in front of our eyes. Masai as of late has been making some VERY Collangelo-esque moves, I know he's better than that, you know he's better than that. But it's still happening. The roster has become a revolving door of bad to mediocre undrafted/SRP players that never amount to anything, for years. We've lost players for nothing, we've made erroneous signings/trades that have cost us, and we've let the players and rest of the NBA dictate what we do.

This is not the same FO from 10 years ago IMO. But if everyone wants to keep saying how the FO is great and better than most of the NBA, it's time to actually prove it again. You don't need the highest paid FO in the league to get a banger of a pick with a top 5 lotto pick, you need them to find the hidden players.

The depth guys/hidden gems you are talking about come from a period that we've missed out on because we had to trade draft assets away to win the title. Look at our draft positions from 2018-2020

2018: none
2019: 59
2020: 29 and 59

Now consider 2015-2017

2015: 20
2016: 9 and 27
2017: 23

The front office almost always drafts above their actual position, it's just that our draft position for 3 straight years was the worst in the league. That was the price of winning a title.

Are we back on track? TBD imo. Barnes was a hit. Dick showed flashes. Koloko looked solid and I can't blame the FO for his medical problems.

Lack of draft assets + Nurse (in large part fired because of his inability to develop) created a development black hole. We'll see if we turned the corner but I don't really have any reason to believe the FO has lost their touch when it comes to drafting.

To me, the sign that this FO has lost it will be repeated win-now moves like the Poeltl trade. It seems like they've acknowledged it as a failure. If they can avoid those I will have confidence in them.

Like I said earlier though, it's not just about the draft. It's the undrafted UFAs and trades. We identified Norm and traded for him, FVV was found outside of the draft, Boucher was found outside of the draft etc. I'm alright with their recent draft history as there hasn't really been much to play with. But it's why it's so god damn infuriating we keep trading picks away, it's one of the things we seemingly do better than 90% of the NBA, and we throw them away to dump bad contracts from trades, acquire mid tier players, and so on.

Most rational people can live with the lack of picks leading up to and from the chip, since it was building towards that. But 2021 to present?

2021 : 4, 46, 47
2022 : 33
2023 : 13

None of that has anything to do with the chip, this is all from bad moves post chip.

[junot111]

Please read before commenting. We’re referring to finding gems via the draft, free agency, or trades. We previously hit on OG, FVV, Siakam, Norm. What have we done since then? I’m here all night…

So you're using the FO's past success against them lol. Do you have examples of gems found by all other 29 teams?

Caleb Martin
Gabe Vincent
Naz Reid
Jaden McDaniels
Donte DiVincenzo
Mitchell Robinson
Isaiah Hartenstein
Jalen Brunson
Josh Hart
Andrew Nembhard
Daniel Gafford
Sam Hauser
Payton Pritchard
Derrick White
Aaron Wiggins
Jaylin Williams
Isaiah Joe

And I could go on. Pick damn near ANY playoff team and you will find an abundance of players drafted late late first rounds, second rounds, undrafted, traded for and started performing and so on.

Damn near the entire Knicks playoff run was off the backs of players that no one identified as producers at their current level. OKC has a ton of uplift from guys off the bench drafted late in the first and in the second rounds.

Just because you don't care to notice, doesn't mean they don't exist.

I didn't say they don't exist, I'm challenging the notion that they're so commonplace that "every other team has found a gem". You just named players from six teams. Please go on about the gems from every team not in the playoffs...

[Scase]

So you're using the FO's past success against them lol. Do you have examples of gems found by all other 29 teams?

Caleb Martin
Gabe Vincent
Naz Reid
Jaden McDaniels
Donte DiVincenzo
Mitchell Robinson
Isaiah Hartenstein
Jalen Brunson
Josh Hart
Andrew Nembhard
Daniel Gafford
Sam Hauser
Payton Pritchard
Derrick White
Aaron Wiggins
Jaylin Williams
Isaiah Joe

And I could go on. Pick damn near ANY playoff team and you will find an abundance of players drafted late late first rounds, second rounds, undrafted, traded for and started performing and so on.

Damn near the entire Knicks playoff run was off the backs of players that no one identified as producers at their current level. OKC has a ton of uplift from guys off the bench drafted late in the first and in the second rounds.

Just because you don't care to notice, doesn't mean they don't exist.

I didn't say they don't exist, I'm challenging the notion that they're so commonplace that "every other team has found a gem". You just named players from six teams. Please go on about the gems from every team not in the playoffs...

Brilliant how you can get so close to the point, while completely missing it.

I'll let you marinate in that a bit, and maybe you can come out on the other side by figuring it out.

[WaltFrazier]

Fred and Boucher were undrafted and Raptors have been tops in drafting and hidden gem reported in many sites/statistics.

Mostly before 2019

Fred and Boucher took 4 yrs to develop. You also have to factor the coach. We had Casey who was developing players while Nick Nurse was playing to win every game.

There's a long list of underwhelming or flopped player acquisitions since 2019, excluding Barnes.
Which players drafted or signed after 2019, aside from Barnes, would you say would have been successful like Fred and Boucher, except Nurse held them back?

[disoblige]

Mostly before 2019

Fred and Boucher took 4 yrs to develop. You also have to factor the coach. We had Casey who was developing players while Nick Nurse was playing to win every game.

There's a long list of underwhelming or flopped player acquisitions since 2019, excluding Barnes.
Which players drafted or signed after 2019, aside from Barnes, would you say would have been successful like Fred and Boucher, except Nurse held them back?

In the last 3 season, we had 48 wins, 41 wins and 25 wins. We didnt have high draft picks. We had Banton, Achiuwa, Flynn and Koloko as our young projects and core of Fred, GTJ, OG, Barnes, Siakam.


People are just depressed because of the disappointing season. People should have fixed their expectations when Kawhi bolted, Lowry/Gasol/Ibaka aged and Fred leaving. Poeltl trade or not, losing this much players would have caused us to rebuild eventually.

[pharring]

Project 6'9'' was an invention of the internet. Our PG was very famously not 6'9'', for example.

All 15 players on the roster weren't 6'9, this means it was a figment of people's imagination.

"Project 6'9" only exists because we drafted Barnes, who is 6'9. None of this talk exists if we draft Suggs at 4. All this hand wringing over project 6'9 failing: would you guys have rather drafted a worse player? Because that was the other option here, and that makes our team worse.

I sure as hell hope that if that BPA at #19 this year is 6'9 that we draft that player.

Project 6'9 was a short-hand way of describing a roster-building goal that prioritized switchability and positionless basketball. It was envisioned by Masai/Bobby as the next big trend.

The problem arose when all roster decisions seemed to need to be run through this goal. Middling skill sets were forgiven and overall fit was back-seated on the assumption that skill improvements could be taught and "blend" could equate to "fit".

It didn't work. The level of overall skill was never high enough, and wave-after-wave of same-sized, same-skilled players was not a substitute for constructing a roster with actual complementary fits.

I don't know for sure if Masai/Bobby have learned this lesson, but if they have truly moved off this gimmick, then I am still all-in on their leadership.

[dTox]

This is how I read the OP:

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