Grading the Ingram Trade

[Wise80]

I like it as long as it doesn't screw up our pick and he comes back for a reasonable amount.

The fit isn't the greatest and the dollar amount for the top 5 isn't feasible long term, but that's fine. IQ, RJ, Ingram, Scottie, and Jakob with a top 7 pick and Ochai coming off the bench. Hopefully Shead, Dick, and Walter can make a leap and then you're looking like a decent team.

A few tweaks to the roster to help compliment the players over the next 2 years and we'll look a lot better.

Definitely better then just standing pat and wasting 3 more years to get to where we're at.

[scuervo1]

Almost everything depends on 2 things: 1) What our draft pick this year will be. 2) What Ingram's contract looks like. So....let's table this and revisit after free agency

You forgot point number 3, how good will Scottie B’s ceiling will be. The organization is bending over backward to surround him with players, and if he doesn’t improve the potential of the Raptors being a contender is quite limited.

[LoveMyRaps]

Man, I'm actually very excited about this trade. We're gonna be so fun to watch next year.

Tank only got stronger for this season as we lost some key vets and our bench is now depleted.

[DG88]

B for me, depends on how much he re-signs for and whether he's durable enough.

[Pointgod]

Im going to let my friend Kevin Peleton explain.

https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/42972959/nba-trade-grades-breaking-most-impactful-deals

Toronto Raptors: C+

Still, it's unclear where exactly the Raptors are going with this group. Trading a first-round pick for Ingram qualifies as a win-now move for a team that is 19 games below .500. There hasn't been a coherent vision for Toronto's roster since the team went 48-34 in 2021-22, losing in the opening round of the playoffs. The Raptors have vacillated between adding veterans midseason (Jakob Poeltl, Olynyk and now Ingram) and trading away Siakam and OG Anunoby in moves aimed at the timetable of 23-year-old star Scottie Barnes.

The issue here is there might be a reason why a one-time All-Star in his prime was available at a relative bargain. Ingram's advanced stats have never matched his strong scoring and assist averages (23.0 PPG and 5.2 APG) during five-plus seasons in New Orleans. He is more of a volume scorer than an efficient one and generates relatively few rebounds, steals and blocks from his vaunted length.

If Toronto can extend or re-sign Ingram on a reasonable contract, perhaps he'll have more trade value and could be flipped for a player who fits better alongside the Raptors core. Until that point, I'm not sure where Toronto is heading.

[Tripod]

Looking at the top scorers, his 22.2ppg slots him right behind Curry, Brown and Young. That should absolutely help us next year and going forward.

To me this was a step to make the team better next year when hopefully we have better healthy +a top 10 pick+ internal development from the rest of the youth. We will still make more changes in the coming years to personnel but adding what should he our top scorer, is a big add.

Now if we also get some lottery luck too....

[Sandman88]

A - Masai beatin them washed allegations. Enjoy the ride

[raincityraptors]

Honestly this is an easy A for me (from an asset management perspective though I am more optimistic than most on the basketball side).

I hated this deal at first because it seems like a treadmill move. But given their track record of rehabbing value through their medical and development staff, they have every right to take this shot.

The Raptors have earned the right to take swings like this with injured/underperforming players to see if they can help them grow or unlock another level. They have a track record of succeeding at this. They did it for my favorite player, RJ.

I would rather take this cap hit, lose the Indy pick next year and the second in 31.

We don't have much to do with that cap as a team players don't want to sign with.

A pick around 20 and a distant second rounder don't have a high probability of reaching where Ingram is today as a former All-Star entering the prime of his career (surrounded by a top of the line medical staff).

If he unlocks another level with us, this trade looks like a steal.

The potential upside is well worth the price we paid to find out.

Others my disagree but I see this as increasing our assets and the overall talent that we have to play with to become the pieces we need or use in deals for players or picks to find the ones we do.

[load management]

Good player. Horrible fit with Barret. Need a 3D guard/wing with Ingram



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You could move RJ to the bench, Ochai to starting lineup as 3+D.

In theory the Raptors defense improves with Dick and RJ being moved to the bench.

But I doubt it happens just because of ego...they didn't even want to replace Dick with Ochai, let alone RJ.

Can we stop pretending that Ochai is a good player? Agree about RJ as a 6th man.

[DreamTeam09]

He's also not a bad defender

No, he's a bad defender. That's the big issue a lot of us have with this trade, can't have a 1, 2, 3 lineup of IQ, Barret, Ingram without conceding a whole lot on the defensive end, that's a recipe for being one of the worst defensive teams in the NBA. Jak is good, but he's not prime Rudy Gobert or Dwight Howard, that's the type of player we'd need to compensate for the horrid defence we're going to see from this starting lineup.

Then consider that Gradey Dick is another guy who will get significant minutes and it gets worse. Then realize we don't have a credible backup PF or C who can play any sort of decent defence, there are a lot of holes to fill without having any flexibility under the tax. Where is the defence for this team coming from? We only have four decent defensive rotation players now, Scottie, Jak, Boucher, and Shead, and there's no guarantee Boucher is on this team next season.

If Boucher is a good defender then Ingram is a good defender. Ochai is also pretty decent along with Shead. I said he's not as bad of a defender as y'all are making it out to be and you replied saying he's a bad defender full stop, we'll agree to disagree on that one unless you have some stats that depict him as a total lost cause on defence.
As for next year, let's see how things play out, we have picks to fill holes, at least it's cheaper to get defense then it is to get offense

[C Court]

It’s a B for me. He just needs to stay healthy and sign for a reasonable amount.

[DreamTeam09]

Im going to let my friend Kevin Peleton explain.

https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/42972959/nba-trade-grades-breaking-most-impactful-deals

Toronto Raptors: C+

Still, it's unclear where exactly the Raptors are going with this group. Trading a first-round pick for Ingram qualifies as a win-now move for a team that is 19 games below .500. There hasn't been a coherent vision for Toronto's roster since the team went 48-34 in 2021-22, losing in the opening round of the playoffs. The Raptors have vacillated between adding veterans midseason (Jakob Poeltl, Olynyk and now Ingram) and trading away Siakam and OG Anunoby in moves aimed at the timetable of 23-year-old star Scottie Barnes.

The issue here is there might be a reason why a one-time All-Star in his prime was available at a relative bargain. Ingram's advanced stats have never matched his strong scoring and assist averages (23.0 PPG and 5.2 APG) during five-plus seasons in New Orleans. He is more of a volume scorer than an efficient one and generates relatively few rebounds, steals and blocks from his vaunted length.

If Toronto can extend or re-sign Ingram on a reasonable contract, perhaps he'll have more trade value and could be flipped for a player who fits better alongside the Raptors core. Until that point, I'm not sure where Toronto is heading.

Stop reading after this, this whole one size fits all notion some ppl carry is just antiquated now. Not every 1st round pick is equal
No not every 1st round pick counts as a win now move. We literally traded for an injured player, and then traded vets/bench rotation and are all in on a youth movement

[DKB333]

Tough, I gave it a B but...

How much is he signed for?
Do we tank the end of the season?

Those two could swing it up to an A or down to a C.

Respect the duffman. I hate it. They will need to pay him what he wants now. A taller DeMar. Yikes. D. Really bad trade.

[pingpongrac]

Good player. Horrible fit with Barret. Need a 3D guard/wing with Ingram



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You could move RJ to the bench, Ochai to starting lineup as 3+D.

In theory the Raptors defense improves with Dick and RJ being moved to the bench.

But I doubt it happens just because of ego...they didn't even want to replace Dick with Ochai, let alone RJ.

Can we stop pretending that Ochai is a good player? Agree about RJ as a 6th man.

Ochai has proven to be a good rotation piece this season. 10.4 PPG on 51/41/66 shootings splits (62 TS%) is great for a 5th option while his 43.3 DFG% — 39.4% against guards where he spends the majority of his time on the defensive end — is top ~20 in the league among high frequency defenders (comparable to White at 42.3%, Jalen Johnson at 43.2%, Coulibaly at 42.6%, DFS at 43.9%, OG at 44.6%, etc.). He’s starting to rack up some blocks and steals lately too (2.8 STL+BLK in 22 MPG the last 5). Absolutely nothing wrong with that production from a guy getting 24-28 MPG.

[rarefind]

Im going to let my friend Kevin Peleton explain.

https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/42972959/nba-trade-grades-breaking-most-impactful-deals

Toronto Raptors: C+

Still, it's unclear where exactly the Raptors are going with this group. Trading a first-round pick for Ingram qualifies as a win-now move for a team that is 19 games below .500. There hasn't been a coherent vision for Toronto's roster since the team went 48-34 in 2021-22, losing in the opening round of the playoffs. The Raptors have vacillated between adding veterans midseason (Jakob Poeltl, Olynyk and now Ingram) and trading away Siakam and OG Anunoby in moves aimed at the timetable of 23-year-old star Scottie Barnes.

The issue here is there might be a reason why a one-time All-Star in his prime was available at a relative bargain. Ingram's advanced stats have never matched his strong scoring and assist averages (23.0 PPG and 5.2 APG) during five-plus seasons in New Orleans. He is more of a volume scorer than an efficient one and generates relatively few rebounds, steals and blocks from his vaunted length.

If Toronto can extend or re-sign Ingram on a reasonable contract, perhaps he'll have more trade value and could be flipped for a player who fits better alongside the Raptors core. Until that point, I'm not sure where Toronto is heading.

The fact that someone got paid to write this is borderline comical.

It is pretty apparent that the Raptors do not have visions of late season tear. To assess the deal on anything outside of the pretense of next year onwards is silly. Furthermore, downplaying the value of a scorer for a team in desperate need of one is also a tad bit ridiculous. If the Pacers pick (which is top 4 protected) blows up in our face, we will be just fine.

Masai is betting on our training staff and coaching unlocking another level for BI. This has risk but much less risk than adding another piece by a continued tank next year or going into the off-season.

[Duffman100]

Good player. Horrible fit with Barret. Need a 3D guard/wing with Ingram



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You could move RJ to the bench, Ochai to starting lineup as 3+D.

In theory the Raptors defense improves with Dick and RJ being moved to the bench.

But I doubt it happens just because of ego...they didn't even want to replace Dick with Ochai, let alone RJ.

Can we stop pretending that Ochai is a good player? Agree about RJ as a 6th man.

What's wrong with Ochai? He's been great this year.

[load management]

You could move RJ to the bench, Ochai to starting lineup as 3+D.

In theory the Raptors defense improves with Dick and RJ being moved to the bench.

But I doubt it happens just because of ego...they didn't even want to replace Dick with Ochai, let alone RJ.

Can we stop pretending that Ochai is a good player? Agree about RJ as a 6th man.

Ochai has proven to be a good rotation piece this season. 10.4 PPG on 51/41/66 shootings splits (62 TS%) is great for a 5th option while his 43.3 DFG% — 39.4% against guards where he spends the majority of his time on the defensive end — is top ~20 in the league among high frequency defenders (comparable to White at 42.3%, Jalen Johnson at 43.2%, Coulibaly at 42.6%, DFS at 43.9%, OG at 44.6%, etc.). He’s starting to rack up some blocks and steals lately too (2.8 STL+BLK in 22 MPG the last 5). Absolutely nothing wrong with that production from a guy getting 24-28 MPG.

If these aren't outlier stats during losing efforts then I would go even further and say we have a budding superstar on our hands because those are incredible numbers.

[DemHeavyHands]

A for me, as long as Indy remains a good team next year lol

Kinda feels like the writing is on the wall for RJ, maybe not so immediately but..

Looking at who’s projected to go in the top 10, there’s a lot of G/F types, you gotta expect we end up with another wing in the draft

Assuming BI gets his 40M+/year from us, I don’t see how we keep RJ. Hopefully we’ve rehab’d his trade value enough that we get some real assets for him when it’s time. Remember he was just a throw in for the OG trade and his contract was considered a cancer.

[pingpongrac]

Can we stop pretending that Ochai is a good player? Agree about RJ as a 6th man.

Ochai has proven to be a good rotation piece this season. 10.4 PPG on 51/41/66 shootings splits (62 TS%) is great for a 5th option while his 43.3 DFG% — 39.4% against guards where he spends the majority of his time on the defensive end — is top ~20 in the league among high frequency defenders (comparable to White at 42.3%, Jalen Johnson at 43.2%, Coulibaly at 42.6%, DFS at 43.9%, OG at 44.6%, etc.). He’s starting to rack up some blocks and steals lately too (2.8 STL+BLK in 22 MPG the last 5). Absolutely nothing wrong with that production from a guy getting 24-28 MPG.

If these aren't outlier stats during losing efforts then I would go even further and say we have a budding superstar on our hands because those are incredible numbers.

So nothing matters because we’re losing? Where was that energy when he was bad in his first ~25 games last season after we acquired him?

No idea how anyone can think Ochai hasn’t been a positive this season. His year 3 numbers are damn-near identical to OG in year 3 and, while he clearly doesn’t have the defensive versatility as OG because of his size, he has been coming into his own as a productive 3+D player. Not everyone needs to be a 25 PPG scorer or DPOY to be considered good.

[Duffman100]

Ochai has proven to be a good rotation piece this season. 10.4 PPG on 51/41/66 shootings splits (62 TS%) is great for a 5th option while his 43.3 DFG% — 39.4% against guards where he spends the majority of his time on the defensive end — is top ~20 in the league among high frequency defenders (comparable to White at 42.3%, Jalen Johnson at 43.2%, Coulibaly at 42.6%, DFS at 43.9%, OG at 44.6%, etc.). He’s starting to rack up some blocks and steals lately too (2.8 STL+BLK in 22 MPG the last 5). Absolutely nothing wrong with that production from a guy getting 24-28 MPG.

If these aren't outlier stats during losing efforts then I would go even further and say we have a budding superstar on our hands because those are incredible numbers.

So nothing matters because we’re losing? Where was that energy when he was bad in his first ~25 games last season after we acquired him?

No idea how anyone can think Ochai hasn’t been a positive this season. His year 3 numbers are damn-near identical to OG in year 3 and, while he clearly doesn’t have the defensive versatility as OG because of his size, he has been coming into his own as a productive 3+D player. Not everyone needs to be a 25 PPG scorer or DPOY to be considered good.

Yeah he's been a perfectly good 3&D role player. What a weird player to hate on.