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If the draft is rigged...

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RoteSchroder
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Re: If the draft is rigged... 

Post#141 » by RoteSchroder » Thu Feb 27, 2025 12:26 am

YogurtProducer wrote:
RoteSchroder wrote:
YogurtProducer wrote:Because all 17 parties are in the room. Do you understand how incredibly infeasible it would be to create a ping pong machine that only pulls out the exact 4 digit combination you need one time and then somehow stops after 4 pulls (despite the same 10 balls being used?).

All 17 parties in the room witness what happens. If there was any **** it would be incredibly noticeable.


If I’m doing it, I’d probably line the balls with magnetic powder/paint with variation in the coating to alter to magnetic strength. Then use multiple, evenly placed coils in the platform under the plastic ping pong ball container, which can be turned on/off and can be adjustable in magnetic strength. Might be a couple other ways to get it done.

If their blower under the ping pong ball container is also transparent or if they open it up and show all the components inside before use, then I would say it’s pretty foolproof. Like I said, I haven’t really looked into it, but I wouldn’t hold anyone back from scrutinizing over the process, even if I find that it’s 100% foolproof.

Another way to further ensure transparency is to shuffle unmarked balls in a transparent container, have a random blindfolded player select the first ball he touches and the balls are marked 1-14 in the order he selects them. It’s overkill, but the NBA is selling a product and are making the claim that it’s not rigged, so the burden of proof is on them to show 100% transparency.

Right, and you think 14 NBA franchises, a international audit firm, a company that creates these machines for lotteries, and the NBA itself are all just going along with this?

Why would any of these entities risk their entire reputation? Based on what you said, that would require the creator of the machine to be in cahoots with the NBA, as well as the audit firm lying about the weights of the balls. So we already have 3 separate entities all lying about this, as well as 14 NBA franchise who are in the room just completely unaware of whats happening.

Again, you are just making up conspiracy theories. You even admit "I haven't really looked into it" but are claiming there is no burden of proof or whatever the **** it is your rambling about.

COME ON MAN. Give it up. They have 100% transparency on the entire process and have 17 different entities involved in the process. That is more transparency than you get from 99.999% of things you come across in your daily life.


Why would they all know about it. Why would the weight of the balls be different if they're all coated.

You could whittle it down to two entities who know about it and it doesn't even need to be the company that creates the machine, considering it could be later modified.

I gave an example how the mechanism COULD work, not how it actually works. My example is to show that what we see isn't foolproof evidence, that there could be potential loopholes, it's NOT a projection of what I think is happening.

Lmao, now the "burden of proof" that you guys keep talking about suddenly becomes "whatever the **** it is". I've never heard a company selling a product put the burden of proof on the consumer. If a company makes a claim trying to sell a product and there's lots of controversy on it by the consumers to the point of hurting the company's credibility, I would try to make the process as clear as possible. I wouldn't want some loser yes-men derailing the conversation on social media.

If the NBA goes with my method of making the process excessively transparent, they gain further credibility. If they go with your method of bashing anyone who goes against the grain, it makes them more suspicious.

For the record, there have been way bigger conspiracies than this where every one of your excuses has been invalidated, which is why I don't take controversial topics with 100% certainty if there are potential holes in what's presented. Interesting that you can't stand someone who is open to questioning things and 90/10 on the topic though.
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Re: If the draft is rigged... 

Post#142 » by RoteSchroder » Thu Feb 27, 2025 1:15 am

YogurtProducer wrote:You even admit "I haven't really looked into it"


No one has looked into it. All information needs to be presented to the table and I haven't dug out all the information.

For example, you and a bunch of others keep saying tHiRd PaRtY. If you guys know so much, then why did you purposely leave out that your precious third party is a corrupt, cheating, lying organization? Instead, you gave me some BS about how they wouldn't do anything shady because it would hurt their reputation

Their auditors were caught cheating on an ethics exam, company investigated itself when contacted and said no wrongdoing. They were fined $100 M by the government.
https://www.sec.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2022-114
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/28/business/ernst-young-sec-cheating.html

Paid $123 M to the government for illegal tax sheltering for the rich:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/janetnovack/2013/03/01/ernst-young-pays-123-million-avoids-tax-shelter-prosecution/#7f47f0022464

Fined $17.4 M in Japan after failing to spot irregularities in the country's worst accounting scandal in years:
https://www.reuters.com/article/business/japan-fines-ernst-young-affiliate-174-million-over-toshiba-audit-idUSKBN0U51DF/

Fined $571k and sanctioned for breaching a fee cap:
https://www.afr.com/companies/professional-services/ey-fined-571-000-over-audit-of-group-linked-to-russian-oligarch-20240812-p5k1ug

After investigation in a case involving sophisticated global fraud, EY was banned in Germany for two years and is being sued for billions of euros in damages:
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/german-regulator-hands-ey-2-year-audit-ban-over-wirecard-scandal-handelsblatt-2023-04-03/
https://www.ft.com/content/24631a52-717a-4cea-b96b-f345cd3bef32

Censured and fined $10 million by SEC for violating auditor independence rules:
https://www.sec.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2021-144

Former employer accuses EY of “unlawful, unprofessional, and unethical” behaviour for its audit of a Dubai gold company
https://crigroup.com/former-auditor-blows-the-whistle-on-ey/

There seems to be around ~25 or so of these scandals, I listed 7. Seems like EY is a go to company if you want to do shady stuff and I would highly recommend the NBA switch companies to improve their credibility.
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Re: If the draft is rigged... 

Post#143 » by bonjovi0308 » Thu Feb 27, 2025 2:50 am

Based on deepseek, Chicago Bulls, Brooklyn Nets and Phil 76ers are the 3 lottery bound teams that had bigger market (revenue) than the Raptors (rank 11) in 2023. Let's see will any of these 3 teams get the 1st overall pick
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Re: If the draft is rigged... 

Post#144 » by RoteSchroder » Fri Feb 28, 2025 8:38 am

Shakril wrote:1. Its not semantics, its actual the term.

2. You literally are claiming to analyze it in every post you are writing.

3. You just cant admit that you are wrong. I am stoppind responding on that topic. Live in ignorance if you must, i tried to help.


ok Mike, but you aren't really responding to what I'm tellem ya
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Re: If the draft is rigged... 

Post#145 » by WaltFrazier » Fri Feb 28, 2025 3:35 pm

[quote="RoteSchroder":****]If the draft is rigged and Silver wants to do what's best for the league, we probably don't make it into the top 4.

1) We got a stable market, MLSE can even raise ticket prices in a down year and this is "Canada's team"

2) We just got Ingram, thus fans have something to look forward to next year

3) With the NBA potentially losing its appeal, there will be an incentive to help teams that need to fill up the stadium and attract viewers

4) There's also the incentive to put hyped up prospects in the American market

However, there's some reverse psychology to this. With more fans thinking the NBA is closer to the WWE, especially with the Doncic trade to LA, the best thing Silver can do is to prove to fans across the world that the NBA isn't rigged. And what better way to do that than to send Cooper Flagg to Toronto. It makes no sense whatsoever from the perspective of the league. Flagg overlaps with Scottie and Ingram in terms of size, position and some skillsets. Dude will probably come off the bench for us.

It would save the NBA's image, as anytime a fan complains about the league being rigged, all they would need to do point to Toronto getting the #1 pick. So if Silver was smart, he'd rig Flagg to Toronto to prove that the league isn't rigged.[/quote:****]

This assumes Silver might care about the perception the league is rigged. I don't think he does. They're going to do what they do.
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Re: If the draft is rigged... 

Post#146 » by Dennis 37 » Fri Feb 28, 2025 3:44 pm

Nebuchadnezzar wrote:There is zero actual evidence the draft is rigged ( and team x or y got the first pick is not evidence). This is a conspiracy theory.


The draft is not really the problem with the NBA. Luka going for cheap to the Lakers is a huge problem. Refs no longer calling travels or carries is a problem. Star biased reffing is a problem. Players not giving a crap about the All Star game is a problem.
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Re: If the draft is rigged... 

Post#147 » by WaltFrazier » Fri Feb 28, 2025 4:04 pm

Los_29 wrote:Zion to the Pelicans was certainly a huge curveball if the league is rigged. NYK would’ve been a better bet, wouldn’t it? lol.

But as a newish Knicks fan and frequenter of their board, the feeling is the league office hates Dolan so they don't do the Knicks any favors. Normally they should want the biggest media and population market to be strong but the Dolan factor overrides that. :D
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Re: If the draft is rigged... 

Post#148 » by arbsn » Fri Feb 28, 2025 8:40 pm

100%

Colangelo coming to the Raps and getting #1 for Bargnani was too predictable

I also think the league really likes Masai and international aspect and there is a chance we get Flagg

I would put the Flagg rigging power rankings as:

1) Utah (Prob best fit on paper + we all know the racial bias)
2) Hornets (Ball/Flagg could be the leagues most popular duo for the young audience)
3) Chicago (Even if they make the play-in and get a late lottery pick, they are a destiny team)
4) Toronto (international market, good for global brand)
5) Washington (they are on the verge of death league needs to revive them)
6) Spurs (Tim Duncan/Admiral part 2... history always repeats itself)
7) Philly (OG team that needs some life injected into it)
8) Suns (New ownership, they suck and need life)

Teams I dont think will get it:
Nola, Blazers, BK,
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Re: If the draft is rigged... 

Post#149 » by RoteSchroder » Sat Mar 1, 2025 12:24 am

arbsn wrote:100%

Colangelo coming to the Raps and getting #1 for Bargnani was too predictable

I also think the league really likes Masai and international aspect and there is a chance we get Flagg

I would put the Flagg rigging power rankings as:

1) Utah (Prob best fit on paper + we all know the racial bias)
2) Hornets (Ball/Flagg could be the leagues most popular duo for the young audience)
3) Chicago (Even if they make the play-in and get a late lottery pick, they are a destiny team)
4) Toronto (international market, good for global brand)
5) Washington (they are on the verge of death league needs to revive them)
6) Spurs (Tim Duncan/Admiral part 2... history always repeats itself)
7) Philly (OG team that needs some life injected into it)
8) Suns (New ownership, they suck and need life)

Teams I dont think will get it:
Nola, Blazers, BK,


The "reason" game is really difficult and not that reliable because we don't really know what Silver or league offices are thinking. If you look at articles from media outlets, the reasoning they use has been more so using the draft as compensation (Cavs getting 3 1sts after losing LBJ, NBA selling NO, Orlando with two 1sts in a row after purchased by the DeVos family), then there's Wemby after Kawhi, Bargnani after Vince leaving and BC coming in, etc. There are also story lines with players and hometowns.

https://www.businessinsider.com/nba-lottery-rigged-2012-5
https://www.theringer.com/2017/05/17/nba/conspiracy-corner-2017-nba-draft-rigged-los-angeles-lakers-2c18e7831379
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba-draft-lottery-2020-conspiracy-theories-that-make-us-wonder-if-the-lottery-is-rigged/
https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/971085/2019/05/10/can-the-nba-draft-lottery-be-rigged-an-exploration-as-the-knicks-big-day-approaches/

Problem is that you can probably find reasons for every team that wins the lotto. Even if there's a pattern, the evidence is still a bit flimsy. Also, if Silver likes the Raps, he sure as hell didn't show it last year..we were last on the 4-way tie with the Indiana pick and didn't get into the lotto.
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Re: If the draft is rigged... 

Post#150 » by TheRaptor! » Sat Mar 1, 2025 12:28 am

RoteSchroder wrote:
arbsn wrote:100%

Colangelo coming to the Raps and getting #1 for Bargnani was too predictable

I also think the league really likes Masai and international aspect and there is a chance we get Flagg

I would put the Flagg rigging power rankings as:

1) Utah (Prob best fit on paper + we all know the racial bias)
2) Hornets (Ball/Flagg could be the leagues most popular duo for the young audience)
3) Chicago (Even if they make the play-in and get a late lottery pick, they are a destiny team)
4) Toronto (international market, good for global brand)
5) Washington (they are on the verge of death league needs to revive them)
6) Spurs (Tim Duncan/Admiral part 2... history always repeats itself)
7) Philly (OG team that needs some life injected into it)
8) Suns (New ownership, they suck and need life)

Teams I dont think will get it:
Nola, Blazers, BK,


The "reason" game is really difficult and not that reliable because we don't really know what Silver or league offices are thinking. If you look at articles from media outlets, the reasoning they use has been more so using the draft as compensation (Cavs getting 3 1sts after losing LBJ, NBA selling NO, Orlando with two 1sts in a row after purchased by the DeVos family), then there's Wemby after Kawhi, Bargnani after Vince leaving and BC coming in, etc. There are also story lines with players and hometowns.

https://www.businessinsider.com/nba-lottery-rigged-2012-5
https://www.theringer.com/2017/05/17/nba/conspiracy-corner-2017-nba-draft-rigged-los-angeles-lakers-2c18e7831379
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba-draft-lottery-2020-conspiracy-theories-that-make-us-wonder-if-the-lottery-is-rigged/
https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/971085/2019/05/10/can-the-nba-draft-lottery-be-rigged-an-exploration-as-the-knicks-big-day-approaches/

Problem is that you can probably find reasons for every team that wins the lotto. Even if there's a pattern, the evidence is still a bit flimsy. Also, if Silver likes the Raps, he sure as hell didn't show it last year..we were last on the 4-way tie with the Indiana pick and didn't get into the lotto.


ITs possible Masai knew the draft is weak and told silver he rather give up the pick last year than this year.
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Re: If the draft is rigged... 

Post#151 » by Kid Canada » Sat Mar 1, 2025 4:56 pm

If its Rigged Flagg would be going to Utah hahaha
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Re: If the draft is rigged... 

Post#152 » by ReggieSlater » Sat Mar 1, 2025 9:40 pm

I think some people are just a bit confused on what the burden of proof is. The person making the claim has the burden of proof. Obviously we can incredulously throw our hands up say "we will never know!" for many things, but the time to believe something isn't when we can conceive of it, it's when there is proper evidence. Is the draft rigged? You tell me. That means you show me proper evidence. Not doing this leads us to bad conclusions. The wrinkle of course being that bad conclusions can later be proven true, and the method in doing that? Proving them with evidence.
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Re: If the draft is rigged... 

Post#153 » by RoteSchroder » Sun Mar 2, 2025 12:49 am

ReggieSlater wrote:I think some people are just a bit confused on what the burden of proof is. The person making the claim has the burden of proof. Obviously we can incredulously throw our hands up say "we will never know!" for many things, but the time to believe something isn't when we can conceive of it, it's when there is proper evidence. Is the draft rigged? You tell me. That means you show me proper evidence. Not doing this leads us to bad conclusions. The wrinkle of course being that bad conclusions can later be proven true, and the method in doing that? Proving them with evidence.


Company selling the product and making the claim is responsible for burden of proof.

If someone sells a lotion that makes your acne go away and consumers are skeptical, it’s not on the consumer to prove that it doesn’t work. Consumers are allowed to be skeptical and question the product. If the company uses fake before and after photos, it’s justifiable for the consumer to still question things.

NBA makes the claim that it’s 100% legit. Fans are unsure. The one making the 100% claim and selling the product has the burden of proof. Fans also do not have the means to prove anything, they’re not the FBI, they don’t have access, control or power over anything. The NBA does. They can do whatever they want to prove they’re legit.

Due to the amount of desperate shills in here with their disinformation tactics and terrible logic, I got curious/suspicious. Didn’t take me long to find a 0.001493% anomaly with the draft and a story line to go with it.
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Re: If the draft is rigged... 

Post#154 » by ReggieSlater » Sun Mar 2, 2025 2:20 am

RoteSchroder wrote:If the company uses fake before and after photos, it’s justifiable for the consumer to still question things.


And in this case, you would adopt the burden of proof. What do you think you would use to prove the photos were fake?

Hint: It's not conjecture
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Re: If the draft is rigged... 

Post#155 » by RoteSchroder » Sun Mar 2, 2025 4:34 am

ReggieSlater wrote:
RoteSchroder wrote:If the company uses fake before and after photos, it’s justifiable for the consumer to still question things.


And in this case, you would adopt the burden of proof. What do you think you would use to prove the photos were fake?

Hint: It's not conjecture


It’s not whether the before or after photos are fake or not, many companies use them and many are fake. It’s a flimsy selling point. Even if the photos are real, how many ppl will trust that? The consumer isn’t just gonna believe whatever you show them. Why is it on them to prove the photos are real or fake?

They believe what they believe. Whether the NBA wants to provide foolproof evidence is up to them. The NBA is selling the product, not the consumer.
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Re: If the draft is rigged... 

Post#156 » by Pointgod » Sun Mar 2, 2025 2:03 pm

RoteSchroder wrote:
ReggieSlater wrote:
RoteSchroder wrote:If the company uses fake before and after photos, it’s justifiable for the consumer to still question things.


And in this case, you would adopt the burden of proof. What do you think you would use to prove the photos were fake?

Hint: It's not conjecture


It’s not whether the before or after photos are fake or not, many companies use them and many are fake. It’s a flimsy selling point. Even if the photos are real, how many ppl will trust that? The consumer isn’t just gonna believe whatever you show them. Why is it on them to prove the photos are real or fake?

They believe what they believe. Whether the NBA wants to provide foolproof evidence is up to them. The NBA is selling the product, not the consumer.


The NBA provides evidence that the draft is a fair process by having it audited by a third party, having the machine come from a separate company and literally inviting team members and media members to watch the drawing. They also literally explain the whole process in great detail. So ReggieSlater is right the burden of proof is to show evidence it “could” be rigged.

https://www.nba.com/news/nba-draft-lottery-explainer

How specifically does the Lottery work?
The 40th annual NBA Draft Lottery will determine the order of selection for the first 14 picks of the 2025 NBA Draft. Drawings will be conducted to determine the first four picks in the NBA Draft. The remainder of the “lottery teams” will select in positions five through 14 in inverse order of their 2024-25 regular-season records.

The actual lottery procedure will take place in a separate room just before ESPN’s national broadcast. Select media, NBA officials and representatives of the participating teams and the accounting firm Ernst & Young will be in attendance for the drawings.

Fourteen ping-pong balls numbered 1 through 14 will be placed in a lottery machine. There are 1,001 possible combinations when four balls are drawn out of 14, without regard to their order of selection. Before the lottery, 1,000 of those 1,001 combinations will be assigned to the 14 participating lottery teams. The lottery machine is manufactured by the Smart Play Company, a leading manufacturer of state lottery machines throughout the United States. Smart Play also weighs, measures and certifies the ping-pong balls before the drawing.

The drawing process occurs in the following manner: All 14 balls are placed in the lottery machine and they are mixed for 20 seconds, and then the first ball is removed. The remaining balls are mixed in the lottery machine for another 10 seconds, and then the second ball is drawn. There is a 10-second mix, and then the third ball is drawn. There is a 10-second mix, and then the fourth ball is drawn. The team that has been assigned that combination will receive the No. 1 pick. The same process is repeated with the same ping-pong balls and lottery machine for the second through fourth picks.

If the same team comes up more than once, the result is discarded and another four-ball combination is selected. Also, if the one unassigned combination is drawn, the result is discarded and the balls are drawn again. The length of time the balls are mixed is monitored by a timekeeper who faces away from the machine and signals the machine operator after the appropriate amount of time has elapsed.

A representative from Ernst & Young oversees the entire lottery process and stuffs and seals the envelopes before bringing them to the studio for the broadcast. The announcement of the lottery results will be made by NBA Deputy Commissioner and Chief Operating Officer Mark Tatum. A second representative from each participating team will be seated on stage. Neither the Deputy Commissioner nor the team representatives on stage will be informed of the lottery results before the envelopes are opened. The team whose logo is in the last envelope opened will have the No. 1 pick in the 2025 NBA Draft.
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Re: If the draft is rigged... 

Post#157 » by RoteSchroder » Sun Mar 2, 2025 2:08 pm

Pointgod wrote:
RoteSchroder wrote:
ReggieSlater wrote:
And in this case, you would adopt the burden of proof. What do you think you would use to prove the photos were fake?

Hint: It's not conjecture


It’s not whether the before or after photos are fake or not, many companies use them and many are fake. It’s a flimsy selling point. Even if the photos are real, how many ppl will trust that? The consumer isn’t just gonna believe whatever you show them. Why is it on them to prove the photos are real or fake?

They believe what they believe. Whether the NBA wants to provide foolproof evidence is up to them. The NBA is selling the product, not the consumer.


The NBA provides evidence that the draft is a fair process by having it audited by a third party, having the machine come from a separate company and literally inviting team members and media members to watch the drawing. They also literally explain the whole process in great detail. So ReggieSlater is right the burden of proof is to show evidence it “could” be rigged.

https://www.nba.com/news/nba-draft-lottery-explainer

How specifically does the Lottery work?
The 40th annual NBA Draft Lottery will determine the order of selection for the first 14 picks of the 2025 NBA Draft. Drawings will be conducted to determine the first four picks in the NBA Draft. The remainder of the “lottery teams” will select in positions five through 14 in inverse order of their 2024-25 regular-season records.

The actual lottery procedure will take place in a separate room just before ESPN’s national broadcast. Select media, NBA officials and representatives of the participating teams and the accounting firm Ernst & Young will be in attendance for the drawings.

Fourteen ping-pong balls numbered 1 through 14 will be placed in a lottery machine. There are 1,001 possible combinations when four balls are drawn out of 14, without regard to their order of selection. Before the lottery, 1,000 of those 1,001 combinations will be assigned to the 14 participating lottery teams. The lottery machine is manufactured by the Smart Play Company, a leading manufacturer of state lottery machines throughout the United States. Smart Play also weighs, measures and certifies the ping-pong balls before the drawing.

The drawing process occurs in the following manner: All 14 balls are placed in the lottery machine and they are mixed for 20 seconds, and then the first ball is removed. The remaining balls are mixed in the lottery machine for another 10 seconds, and then the second ball is drawn. There is a 10-second mix, and then the third ball is drawn. There is a 10-second mix, and then the fourth ball is drawn. The team that has been assigned that combination will receive the No. 1 pick. The same process is repeated with the same ping-pong balls and lottery machine for the second through fourth picks.

If the same team comes up more than once, the result is discarded and another four-ball combination is selected. Also, if the one unassigned combination is drawn, the result is discarded and the balls are drawn again. The length of time the balls are mixed is monitored by a timekeeper who faces away from the machine and signals the machine operator after the appropriate amount of time has elapsed.

A representative from Ernst & Young oversees the entire lottery process and stuffs and seals the envelopes before bringing them to the studio for the broadcast. The announcement of the lottery results will be made by NBA Deputy Commissioner and Chief Operating Officer Mark Tatum. A second representative from each participating team will be seated on stage. Neither the Deputy Commissioner nor the team representatives on stage will be informed of the lottery results before the envelopes are opened. The team whose logo is in the last envelope opened will have the No. 1 pick in the 2025 NBA Draft.


Yeah, I know the process, as about as reliable as the before and after photos that cosmetic companies use. Everything you mentioned has already been stated several times.

After all this pushback, I looked into the draft and got what I needed to know anyways. I’m pretty much done with the subject.
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Re: If the draft is rigged... 

Post#158 » by ReggieSlater » Sun Mar 2, 2025 3:00 pm

RoteSchroder wrote:Yeah, I know the process, as about as reliable as the before and after photos that cosmetic companies use.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence
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Re: If the draft is rigged... 

Post#159 » by RoteSchroder » Sun Mar 2, 2025 3:43 pm

ReggieSlater wrote:
RoteSchroder wrote:Yeah, I know the process, as about as reliable as the before and after photos that cosmetic companies use.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence


It’s an analogy used as a rhetorical device. Simplification of the analogy doesn’t make the NBA’s evidence foolproof or not flimsy.

i.e. I’m not saying company A provides evidence for their product and uses bad evidence, therefore company B who provides a product must also use bad evidence.

I’ve been saying company’s B evidence sucks by itself, long before mentioning company A. Company A was only mentioned to help you understand the logic that it’s not on the consumer to accept sh*tty evidence.

You can argue that the evidence company B provides is not sh*tty, but that’s already been debunked.
SirKen
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Re: If the draft is rigged... 

Post#160 » by SirKen » Mon May 12, 2025 11:53 pm

Sooooooo...........

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