Masai: "Scottie isn't a shot maker right now but that will grow. You build around him for his winning mentality"

[djsunyc]

He said some interesting, and positive things.

But he also said this:

“Scottie is the main core of this team. I think you build around him because of the winning mentality, because of the winning instincts he has. Yeah, he’s not completely a shot maker now, that will develop, but I think he’s a championship-contending competitor now. He understands the game well enough where this is the rebound to get, this is the steal to get, sometimes the right pass to make, when he’s not over-ambitious, or maybe playing with younger players, or people with not the calibre of where his mind is going at the time. And he does make mistakes now.

And most of that is not what I wanted from a GM I hope to trust.

Just going to say this, if Barnes doesn't seriously improve by Barnes 3rd year in the new contract, Masai is very likely on the hot seat.

Barnes absolutely 'needs' a respectable 3 point shot or he and Masai might be gone before Barnes that contract is up. 19-20 ppg on poor-mid efficiency for the main guy isn't going to cut it unless that person is Chris Paul or Magic Johnson and those 2 are high efficiency 20 ppg players.

Boiling it down, Masai's future on the Raptors hinges on Barnes.

masai is entering the final year of his deal. he may not be here in another year regardless of what happens next season.

[Scase]

Kyle was consistently a top-10 player in impact metrics, scoring efficiently and playing elite defence. Scottie is nowhere near his level.

This just in, a 30 year old player is better than a 23 year old lol

Like damn guys, I by no means think Scottie is going to be a primary scorer or superstar, but comparing him to someone in their 13th or 14th year is I dunno, kinda stupid?

The original post made the claim that:

Scottie Barnes is tracking to be a Lowry type, where he does a lot of things that help you win games, without being a high volume scorer.

Scottie Barnes is not tracking to be a Lowry-type player. Hell, Lowry at 23 was not tracking to be a Lowry-type player. Kyle experienced a late career breakout, something that isn't exactly common. Expecting Scottie to take that step is expecting a lot, given his lack of development so far.

Could it still happen? Sure, and I haven't fully lost hope. But time is running out. We're in year 4 now. Many of his peers have shot past him in their development, while Scottie is still, more or less, the same player he was when we drafted him.

I don't disagree with your pessimism/hesitation on him doing that, I share it myself. It just came across as comparing a 4th year to a 13/14th year player, and that was odd. 23 vs 23 Scottie is obviously way ahead of Lowry, so a Lowry type career is a lot more likely for him, but not the trajectory. I don't think Scottie is going to magically turn it around in 5-7 years, but I suspect what people meant is they expect him to have Lowry-esque impact, not a carbon copy of his career.

[Tor_Raps]

You add a Durant to this team with Poeltl, Ingram and Barnes with depth and it suddenly becomes extremely interesting. We have the pieces to acquire that guy, soon, imo.

Durant is a Robin. Booker is miles better than anyone on this team, and Durant still can't do anything alongside him. Not to mention he'll be 37 next season.

Durant is an elite scorer and took over main option role with the Warriors when he went there lol. He’s not a Robin and on this roster his main focus is scoring. Durant over his career has had almost 3x the impact on winning than Booker has lol. In fact Barnes’ last season is closer to Booker’s peak than Booker vs Durant.

My main point here is that Masai is building a team where a top scoring guy who’s not a sieve everywhere else would fit in like a glove the same way Kawhi did with us. Masai is building a Boston like team that is stacked everywhere, plays defense and trying to have enough depth to add a superstar who will not have to do everything. Kawhi survived the season he played for us because he basically didn’t have to play defense until the Bucks series.

Durant will be like 37 so he won't be the guy go get. This team is definitely ready to pounce on the next star who demands out though (e.g. Ball, Sabonis or whoever else that isn't super old).

[UnbelievablyRAW]

There are few stars in the league now that didn't make their stamp as a true star within the first 4 years of his career. Scottie made All Star reserve but didn't really beat out a gauntlet of qualified others. If not for us overtly signalling that we're giving him the keys, you could argue he probably deserved to get the Segun/Green level of contract and not the automatic full max (Franz doesn't either)

[ForeverTFC]

So, do most people want the Raptors to trade Barnes? Not sure I’m getting the very emphatic negative comments. I’m curious.

I think many of us are questioning why we're building "around him". A lot of the trades we made were to bring in players around Scottie's timeline as the FO has said repeatedly. He's influencing the direct of the roster construction pretty heavily, and I think some of us question if that's the correct approach.

I mean I see a team accumulating talent at multiple positions. Even if you remove Barnes they’re actually set up to have a balanced roster - so it’s not like they’re building a team to the detriment of something. If this is the point of contention, I don’t see it

I hear you. And with Ingram here, the moves make more sense with Barnes divorced from them. But prior to that, the OG and Agbaji trades and decisions to keep Poeltl as opposed to moving him only made sense if you believed Scottie was a piece to build around.

With that said, I recognize that not everything is linear. So unfair for me to evaluate this without considering the Ingram trade.

[Tha Cynic]

Yup. His draft class was supposed to be one of the weakest. Most of the experts thought the no-brainer pick was Suggs & thought the Raptors made a big mistake. If after the draft someone told me that Scottie would be ROY & an allstar in his 1st three seasons, I would have been over the moon.

Scottie came in as a guy who wasn't known for offense. He was 5th pick in a bad draft. It's not like he came.in as a highly touted top 3 pick.

I always look back this game vs the Celtics. This was only a few games into his rookie season I believe. Looks so polished.

Watch on YouTube

He is playing with better talent & the team is trying to win.

I think we will see a more motivated and "tuned in" version of Scottie next season.

I think all of our players will look hungrier and more more motivated. It has been a tough year. They were basically told from the beginning of the season that winning wasn't a priority.

While disappointed in the progress of Barnes as a scorer, I’m definitely not as pessimistic as some here have been. I think we will see a different Barnes with the team clearly looking to make a jump next season and I think he will do whatever the team needs to win. I also think he’s having a bad year and expect his offense to be much better next season.

He’s definitely more the type who looks to focus on defense and connecting the team like a Lowry and Garnett and then picking his spots to score. He’s actually happy being this type of guy. We have never seen him try to dominate the ball, ever. He has never shown he wants to be a 30 point scorer, so I’m not sure why people even project him this way and then get mad when he isn’t.

I expect he will will refine his offense while doing whatever this team needs to win. Ingram will take on the scoring and that’s a much better outlook than having RJ or IQ be those guys, and I think Barnes will show that he will score in the secondary role by picking his spots and overwhelming the defense. I’m pretty optimistic about next season as a whole.

[Reeko]

There are few stars in the league now that didn't make their stamp as a true star within the first 4 years of his career. Scottie made All Star reserve but didn't really beat out a gauntlet of qualified others. If not for us overtly signalling that we're giving him the keys, you could argue he probably deserved to get the Segun/Green level of contract and not the automatic full max (Franz doesn't either)

What's the measure of a player making "their stamp as a true star"?

[Dalek]

I just want Scottie fully healthy and playing with the best talent possible. Cade stunk the first couple years as well and then really emerged this year when he was all the way healthy and he had a good coach and supporting staff.

I don't think of Scottie as any one thing, but he needs spacing and teammates to set him up just as much as he needs to make plays for others on offense. When he is playing with worse players he tends to force things and it can get ugly.

Additionally, next season lets not have Scottie playing with a limp or grabbing his hand from pain. The guy has to play healthy and just be monitored. I swear at one point he was running the most NBA miles and he was doing it on one leg. His shooting dropped off, but I think he has some kind of hand issue that is impacting him.

[Tripod]

Yup. His draft class was supposed to be one of the weakest. Most of the experts thought the no-brainer pick was Suggs & thought the Raptors made a big mistake. If after the draft someone told me that Scottie would be ROY & an allstar in his 1st three seasons, I would have been over the moon.

Scottie came in as a guy who wasn't known for offense. He was 5th pick in a bad draft. It's not like he came.in as a highly touted top 3 pick.

I always look back this game vs the Celtics. This was only a few games into his rookie season I believe. Looks so polished.

Watch on YouTube

I called this out last season, but I feel he has bulked up way too much for how we were trying to develop him.

I wondered the same.

But at the same time they were playing him at C so when you are 20/21 and taking a beating vs C's, it's common sense that he would try and get bigger to combat that.

In the end, we have seen him be ROTY, an All Star replacement, take over 4th Q's and dominate inside, be dominant defensively. That's all in there...it hasn't gone away. Sometimes less is more and that should apply to him. He will have much more variety to how he impacts wins compared to others on the team who will need to score as they are weaker defensively.

[Raps in 4]

I just want Scottie fully healthy and playing with the best talent possible. Cade stunk the first couple years as well and then really emerged this year when he was all the way healthy and he had a good coach and supporting staff.

I don't think of Scottie as any one thing, but he needs spacing and teammates to set him up just as much as he needs to make plays for others on offense. When he is playing with worse players he tends to force things and it can get ugly.

Additionally, next season lets not have Scottie playing with a limp or grabbing his hand from pain. The guy has to play healthy and just be monitored. I swear at one point he was running the most NBA miles and he was doing it on one leg. His shooting dropped off, but I think he has some kind of hand issue that is impacting him.

Scottie isn't particularly skilled as a scorer, but he also plays way too passively. A guy as big as him should be drawing way more contact. Instead, he settles for jumpers and always looks to pass first. It's frustrating watching him play sometimes. He needs to embrace his role as a PF.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Probably should have just gotten Durant?

[MEDIC]

I always look back this game vs the Celtics. This was only a few games into his rookie season I believe. Looks so polished.

Watch on YouTube

He is playing with better talent & the team is trying to win.

I think we will see a more motivated and "tuned in" version of Scottie next season.

I think all of our players will look hungrier and more more motivated. It has been a tough year. They were basically told from the beginning of the season that winning wasn't a priority.

While disappointed in the progress of Barnes as a scorer, I’m definitely not as pessimistic as some here have been. I think we will see a different Barnes with the team clearly looking to make a jump next season and I think he will do whatever the team needs to win. I also think he’s having a bad year and expect his offense to be much better next season.

He’s definitely more the type who looks to focus on defense and connecting the team like a Lowry and Garnett and then picking his spots to score. He’s actually happy being this type of guy. We have never seen him try to dominate the ball, ever. He has never shown he wants to be a 30 point scorer, so I’m not sure why people even project him this way and then get mad when he isn’t.

I expect he will will refine his offense while doing whatever this team needs to win. Ingram will take on the scoring and that’s a much better outlook than having RJ or IQ be those guys, and I think Barnes will show that he will score in the secondary role by picking his spots and overwhelming the defense. I’m pretty optimistic about next season as a whole.

Yup. That's the way I see things moving forward. I don't really care of Scottie is considered face of the franchise or not. Doesn't really matter. I think he will help get the team where it needs to be, which is moving towards becoming a top team in the east.

I wonder if BI stays healthy if he can start moving towards Tatum level production. Tatum lite would help us move in the right direction

[UnbelievablyRAW]

There are few stars in the league now that didn't make their stamp as a true star within the first 4 years of his career. Scottie made All Star reserve but didn't really beat out a gauntlet of qualified others. If not for us overtly signalling that we're giving him the keys, you could argue he probably deserved to get the Segun/Green level of contract and not the automatic full max (Franz doesn't either)

What's the measure of a player making "their stamp as a true star"?

For me it’s floor raising impact that warrants building a roster around.

Unless we’re about to see a drastically different player in the next few years, he hasn’t looked like he’s on the trajectory to be a guy that could be the 1a or b on a championship contending team.

Scottie looked his best as a super complimentary player to guys like Siakam and FVV. As a lead guy he’s increased his counting stats and tanked his efficiency while going in and out of deferring to guys who he should take precedence on offence over because he prefers passing.

There’s context behind all of this of course, (injuries, roster transition etc) but I’m not sue how much that’s weighing on the production

[TorontoBarneys]

That’s true, I remember most of us had low expectations and instead he came out gangbuster, he was supposed to be a high level project type. But he exceeded that quickly.

Yup. His draft class was supposed to be one of the weakest. Most of the experts thought the no-brainer pick was Suggs & thought the Raptors made a big mistake. If after the draft someone told me that Scottie would be ROY & an allstar in his 1st three seasons, I would have been over the moon.

Scottie came in as a guy who wasn't known for offense. He was 5th pick in a bad draft. It's not like he came.in as a highly touted top 3 pick.

I always look back this game vs the Celtics. This was only a few games into his rookie season I believe. Looks so polished.

Watch on YouTube

The first thing that immediately comes to mind when watching this is that his 3pt form is just way different and better here, in this video, compared to now. His release is always lethargic looking now. Looking at that shooting form in the video, you would not think he has a broken 3pt shot.

The other thing that I badly miss from his rookie season is the way he liked to stalk the paint for o-rebs and get easy garbage buckets. His handle is definitely better these days, at least. Not by a lot, but it is.

[mdenny]

Yup. His draft class was supposed to be one of the weakest. Most of the experts thought the no-brainer pick was Suggs & thought the Raptors made a big mistake. If after the draft someone told me that Scottie would be ROY & an allstar in his 1st three seasons, I would have been over the moon.

Scottie came in as a guy who wasn't known for offense. He was 5th pick in a bad draft. It's not like he came.in as a highly touted top 3 pick.

What? The draft class was touted as incredibly strong at the time. There was a ton of hype surrounding the top-4 prospects.

Usually draft classes are based on franchise.altering talent. I don't recall any of those guys being touted as the next NBA superstars.

I could be wrong though......all it these.drafts are starting to blend into one another. Looking back at that draft, it wasn't all that strong.

You are definitely misremembering. It was touted as "the best draft in years" with 4 franchise altering prospects (rounded out by Suggs, not Barnes). It was also called deep beyond that.


That draft class was even heavily hyped the year before because the class before it was considered much weaker.

The prognosis on that class turned out to be substantially over-hyped. Particularly Green and Suggs. However....it WAS a very deep draft.

[TheAlchemist23]

A lot coping going on...a utility player on a max contract is a disaster

[TheAlchemist23]

Yup. His draft class was supposed to be one of the weakest. Most of the experts thought the no-brainer pick was Suggs & thought the Raptors made a big mistake. If after the draft someone told me that Scottie would be ROY & an allstar in his 1st three seasons, I would have been over the moon.

Scottie came in as a guy who wasn't known for offense. He was 5th pick in a bad draft. It's not like he came.in as a highly touted top 3 pick.

What? The draft class was touted as incredibly strong at the time. There was a ton of hype surrounding the top-4 prospects.

Usually draft classes are based on franchise.altering talent. I don't recall any of those guys being touted as the next NBA superstars.

I could be wrong though......all it these.drafts are starting to blend into one another. Looking back at that draft, it wasn't all that strong.

Cade, Mobley and Green were all touted as franchise level talents lol

[mathgeek]

Scottie is not a first option by any means. He has a fundamental flaw on his shooting and is not exactly good at shooting off the dribble either. Derozan had a similar issue on his earlier years but he ended up becoming one of the best if not the best mid range shooters in the league, he was elite at fading and having a high release which Scottie doesn't have.

[tsherkin]

Scottie is not a first option by any means. He has a fundamental flaw on his shooting and is not exactly good at shooting off the dribble either. Derozan had a similar issue on his earlier years but he ended up becoming one of the best if not the best mid range shooters in the league, he was elite at fading and having a high release which Scottie doesn't have.

Actually, Scottie's release on the fade out of the 10-foot pull-up on the left mid-block is pretty decent. He isn't getting stuffed regularly, it has reasonable arc. It looks fine. That's why he's hitting it well. Where he's having trouble is when he's forced to create before that spot, or when he's forced to go right, as much as anything else. Even deep in the paint on the right side, he struggles, but he's pretty reliable when he can get to the left side. He likes going right to left a lot more than going to his strong-hand side.

[MEDIC]

What? The draft class was touted as incredibly strong at the time. There was a ton of hype surrounding the top-4 prospects.

Usually draft classes are based on franchise.altering talent. I don't recall any of those guys being touted as the next NBA superstars.

I could be wrong though......all it these.drafts are starting to blend into one another. Looking back at that draft, it wasn't all that strong.

You are definitely misremembering. It was touted as "the best draft in years" with 4 franchise altering prospects (rounded out by Suggs, not Barnes). It was also called deep beyond that.


That draft class was even heavily hyped the year before because the class before it was considered much weaker.

The prognosis on that class turned out to be substantially over-hyped. Particularly Green and Suggs. However....it WAS a very deep draft.

I do remember the "fade for Cade" hype now.

Definitely overhyped.

It was pretty deep with borderline allstar talent, but no legit superstars.

The only true stars to come out of the draft the last 5 years were Anthony Edwards, Wemby, Ja & Zion (when healthy). I wouldn't put Cade in there yet. His stats look amazing, but I want to see those numbers translate in the playoffs.