Post-game: Ingram-Scottie-CMB-RJ lead Raps to victory!

[YogurtProducer]

It's hard to think of a worse playoff performer. Just absolute insanity that he was a 30% USG guy on those Raptor teams. Let's not even get into the on court and on/off metrics.

Yeah, it was a major thing when we replaced him with someone who was competent against good defenses.

I agree in the playoffs, I was talking purely in the regular season.
And my point was that his efficiency increased significantly after leaving our team.

Yes, strictly speaking of his seasonal averages, he was more efficient after he left us, though his issues remained the same. His time in Sacramento, however, has been basically the same.

2017 was still actually his best individual offensive season, though. And it wasn't really until his second season with the Spurs and shifting from the 2 to the 3 when he started to get going. And then it immediately tapered off. Which, you'll notice, was basically COVID seasons, playing a little as a small-ball 4, and then normalizing even as spacing improved and such.

Demar was a slow-burn kinda guy. He did tiny bits of development year after year, which was impressive in its way, but he couldn't really put it together into a meaningful peak, nor a way to attack strong defenses.

I'm not sure how 2017 was better than his 2022 season.

He had a TS of 55.2% in 2017 compared to a really nice TS of 59% in 2022, while his ability to manage and facilitate an offense was vastly improved.

Also I give him some leeway in Sacramento considering the fact that he was 35 years old last year and it's impressive that he can still put up 20ppg on solid efficiency at that age.

Again, I agree with all your points on his defensive deficiencies and playoff struggles, but Derozan's ability to continue improving into his early 30s was incredibly impressive. The fact that this season at age 36 he's still averaging 21ppg on 51%fg is very impressive and a testament to his high skill level.

The most important part of Demar’s career was his longevity, cause his peak was fairly low among “stars”.

He was always a meh efficiency, bad defending, bad shooting, volume scorer. Reason why he never won a thing

[MoneyBall]

It is meaningless. That’s a team stat that doesn’t provide anything on the individual player.

All it means is Demar played on a stronger team.

I have no doubt you believe this. You've shown yourself inept when it comes to these kinds of discussions on advanced metrics. Despite being taught otherwise, you still falsely believe BPM is a raw stat rather than and advanced metric. You're a true time thief.

ORTG is as meaningless as they come. Might as well bring up how many games the Pelicans and Raptors won in 2017.

I'm already convinced that you believe this. There's no point in repeating it over and over.

[YogurtProducer]

I have no doubt you believe this. You've shown yourself inept when it comes to these kinds of discussions on advanced metrics. Despite being taught otherwise, you still falsely believe BPM is a raw stat rather than and advanced metric. You're a true time thief.

ORTG is as meaningless as they come. Might as well bring up how many games the Pelicans and Raptors won in 2017.

I'm already convinced that you believe this. There's no point in repeating it over and over.

Sure - the next step is for you to stop quoting useless stats like they mean anything.

Unless you think Jarrett Allen is thr leagues best player at a 142ORTG, the best wing is Jimmy Butler, and Payton Prichard is the best point guard.

Say it with me. Use-less!

Edit: last year it had Davion as our worst defender and Olynyk near the best.

USELESS.

[UnbelievablyRAW]

People need to be more nuanced when discussing Demar.

Even in his peak years in Toronto he was not near the efficient player and facilitator he became on the Spurs and Bulls. In his peak Raptor years he was not a very efficient player, but he improved.

For all his defensive faults, Demar on the Bulls, in particular, was lethal offensively - in 2022 he averaged 28ppg, 4rpg and 5apg on 50%fg and 35%3fg while getting to the line 8 times a game and shooting 85%ft...that's fantastic.

I was about to say this as well. Spurs Demar was better than the Demar we had. Maybe we could have won more series if we had that version

[YogurtProducer]

People need to be more nuanced when discussing Demar.

Even in his peak years in Toronto he was not near the efficient player and facilitator he became on the Spurs and Bulls. In his peak Raptor years he was not a very efficient player, but he improved.

For all his defensive faults, Demar on the Bulls, in particular, was lethal offensively - in 2022 he averaged 28ppg, 4rpg and 5apg on 50%fg and 35%3fg while getting to the line 8 times a game and shooting 85%ft...that's fantastic.

I was about to say this as well. Spurs Demar was better than the Demar we had. Maybe we could have won more series if we had that version

Probably not, because adjusted for era his TS% wasn’t meaningful higher than league average in SA than it was in TOR.

He still was a god awful defender, who couldn’t space the floor, and wasn’t good enough to be a #1 scorer. That never changed

[UnbelievablyRAW]

One of Ochai/Gradey/Jakobe needs to be moved to clarify the bench guard lineups and get a real bench C.

CMB should play the 5 on offense and guard 3’s on defense. Mamu should be a 4. Shead is the bench pg so that leaves one slot for one of those guards and a bench big.

Those small ball lineups with Mamu are terrible on the boards and interiorly with defense even if there is more spacing.

Tbh I haven’t liked much of any of them and would prefer we package 2 and the LAL pick to get a real bench guard that can score to lift the bench offense.

[Sandman88]

B.I quietly putting up an incredibly efficient season. He’s a certified bucket and his game resembles Kobe so much

[MoneyBall]

ORTG is as meaningless as they come. Might as well bring up how many games the Pelicans and Raptors won in 2017.

I'm already convinced that you believe this. There's no point in repeating it over and over.

Sure - the next step is for you to stop quoting useless stats like they mean anything.

Unless you think Jarrett Allen is thr leagues best player at a 142ORTG, the best wing is Jimmy Butler, and Payton Prichard is the best point guard.

Say it with me. Use-less!

Edit: last year it had Davion as our worst defender and Olynyk near the best.

USELESS.

Stop, you're embarrassing yourself again.

ORtg is not a "best player" metric, it's an efficiency metric. Allen led the entire league with a .724 TS and was a phenomenal offensive rebounder with relatively good assist to turnover ratio for a center... so yeah, he was number one in the league in offensive efficiency. Higher usage creators (e.g. Jokic) will naturally suffer some efficiency loss, but only because they shoulder the hardest possessions.

That doesn't make the metric useless, it means you have to understand what it measures.

Say it with me: time thief!

[YogurtProducer]

I'm already convinced that you believe this. There's no point in repeating it over and over.

Sure - the next step is for you to stop quoting useless stats like they mean anything.

Unless you think Jarrett Allen is thr leagues best player at a 142ORTG, the best wing is Jimmy Butler, and Payton Prichard is the best point guard.

Say it with me. Use-less!

Edit: last year it had Davion as our worst defender and Olynyk near the best.

USELESS.

Stop, you're embarrassing yourself again.

ORtg is not a "best player" metric, it's an efficiency metric. Allen led the entire league with a .724 TS and was a phenomenal offensive rebounder with relatively good assist to turnover ratio for a center... so yeah, he was number one in the league in offensive efficiency. Higher usage creators (e.g. Jokic) will naturally suffer some efficiency loss, but only because they shoulder the hardest possessions.

That doesn't make the metric useless, it means you have to understand what it measures.

Say it with me: time thief!

So what you’re saying is it doesn’t tell you anything. It’s just another box score fantasy formula lol.

Comparing Demar’s “efficiency” on a great Raptors team and Ingram’s “efficiency” on a poor Pelicans team are not equal things. They don’t tell you a damn thing about anything, and trying to use them to argue with is foolish.

[Troubadour]

Chance for redemption against the Bucks

[TDGlenmanor]

Quickly will get cooked by the Bucks guards next game

[everdiso]

1st game against bucks

Rollins 13pts 54.7ts% 2ast/3to 3st/1bk 5rb/2orb
Quick 19pts 51.6ts% 8ast/2to 2st/0bk 7rb/3otb

[Thaddy]

I would let Barnes and CMB go one on one with Giannis. They can stop him.

I'd also use IQ off ball and do a quick sub for RJ. Then use RJ and Barnes against their bench. We will probably light them up in the Giannis bench minutes.

CMB / Mamu
Barnes / Mogbo
Ingram / Battle
RJ / Shead
IQ / Shead

No Agbaji, Dick or Walter. They all need to be in the doghouse until they play calmly and push themselves to be better defenders and more confident with shooting.

[MoneyBall]

Sure - the next step is for you to stop quoting useless stats like they mean anything.

Unless you think Jarrett Allen is thr leagues best player at a 142ORTG, the best wing is Jimmy Butler, and Payton Prichard is the best point guard.

Say it with me. Use-less!

Edit: last year it had Davion as our worst defender and Olynyk near the best.

USELESS.

Stop, you're embarrassing yourself again.

ORtg is not a "best player" metric, it's an efficiency metric. Allen led the entire league with a .724 TS and was a phenomenal offensive rebounder with relatively good assist to turnover ratio for a center... so yeah, he was number one in the league in offensive efficiency. Higher usage creators (e.g. Jokic) will naturally suffer some efficiency loss, but only because they shoulder the hardest possessions.

That doesn't make the metric useless, it means you have to understand what it measures.

Say it with me: time thief!

So what you’re saying is it doesn’t tell you anything. It’s just another box score fantasy formula lol.

Comparing Demar’s “efficiency” on a great Raptors team and Ingram’s “efficiency” on a poor Pelicans team are not equal things. They don’t tell you a damn thing about anything, and trying to use them to argue with is foolish.

You're just trolling at this point. There's zero acknowledgement on your part that you were dead wrong about viewing ORtg as a "best player" stat. A 10-second Google search would have fixed that.

To add, individual ORtg and team ORtg are obviously different.... well, it's obvious to most people. Allen (team best) had an ORtg of 142, while Tristan Thomson (team worst) had an ORtg of 100. The Cavs as a team had an ORtg of 121.7. Clearly they are not the same thing.

Poeltl has consistently been one of the most effecient bigs in the league while being on bad teams his entire career. Meanwhile, Ingram's All-Star year in 2020 came with an ORtg of 112, which is perfectly average, nothing great.

Calling ORtg a 'fantasy box score' just broadcasts that you don't know what goes into it. Which is typical for you, but still frustrating given your arrogance.

If "doesn't account for team factor" disqualifies a stat for you, then go ahead and delete TS% from your vocabulary too. By your standard, it's even more "useless".

If you genuinely think a metric that includes shooting efficiency, turnovers, offensive rebounds, assists, and assists quality "tells you nothing" then we're not even having a basketball discussion anymore.

[YogurtProducer]

Stop, you're embarrassing yourself again.

ORtg is not a "best player" metric, it's an efficiency metric. Allen led the entire league with a .724 TS and was a phenomenal offensive rebounder with relatively good assist to turnover ratio for a center... so yeah, he was number one in the league in offensive efficiency. Higher usage creators (e.g. Jokic) will naturally suffer some efficiency loss, but only because they shoulder the hardest possessions.

That doesn't make the metric useless, it means you have to understand what it measures.

Say it with me: time thief!

So what you’re saying is it doesn’t tell you anything. It’s just another box score fantasy formula lol.

Comparing Demar’s “efficiency” on a great Raptors team and Ingram’s “efficiency” on a poor Pelicans team are not equal things. They don’t tell you a damn thing about anything, and trying to use them to argue with is foolish.

You're just trolling at this point. There's zero acknowledgement on your part that you were dead wrong about viewing ORtg as a "best player" stat. A 10-second Google search would have fixed that.

To add, individual ORtg and team ORtg are obviously different.... well, it's obvious to most people. Allen (team best) had an ORtg of 142, while Tristan Thomson (team worst) had an ORtg of 100. The Cavs as a team had an ORtg of 121.7. Clearly they are not the same thing.

Poeltl has consistently been one of the most effecient bigs in the league while being on bad teams his entire career. Meanwhile, Ingram's All-Star year in 2020 came with an ORtg of 112, which is perfectly average, nothing great.

Calling ORtg a 'fantasy box score' just broadcasts that you don't know what goes into it. Which is typical for you, but still frustrating given your arrogance.

If "doesn't account for team factor" disqualifies a stat for you, then go ahead and delete TS% from your vocabulary too. By your standard, it's even more "useless".

If you genuinely think a metric that includes shooting efficiency, turnovers, offensive rebounds, assists, and assists quality "tells you nothing" then we're not even having a basketball discussion anymore.

I thought we decided a decade ago to ignore individual ORTG. I guess some people haven’t yet.

[MoneyBall]

So what you’re saying is it doesn’t tell you anything. It’s just another box score fantasy formula lol.

Comparing Demar’s “efficiency” on a great Raptors team and Ingram’s “efficiency” on a poor Pelicans team are not equal things. They don’t tell you a damn thing about anything, and trying to use them to argue with is foolish.

You're just trolling at this point. There's zero acknowledgement on your part that you were dead wrong about viewing ORtg as a "best player" stat. A 10-second Google search would have fixed that.

To add, individual ORtg and team ORtg are obviously different.... well, it's obvious to most people. Allen (team best) had an ORtg of 142, while Tristan Thomson (team worst) had an ORtg of 100. The Cavs as a team had an ORtg of 121.7. Clearly they are not the same thing.

Poeltl has consistently been one of the most effecient bigs in the league while being on bad teams his entire career. Meanwhile, Ingram's All-Star year in 2020 came with an ORtg of 112, which is perfectly average, nothing great.

Calling ORtg a 'fantasy box score' just broadcasts that you don't know what goes into it. Which is typical for you, but still frustrating given your arrogance.

If "doesn't account for team factor" disqualifies a stat for you, then go ahead and delete TS% from your vocabulary too. By your standard, it's even more "useless".

If you genuinely think a metric that includes shooting efficiency, turnovers, offensive rebounds, assists, and assists quality "tells you nothing" then we're not even having a basketball discussion anymore.

I thought we decided a decade ago to ignore individual ORTG. I guess some people haven’t yet.

If poeple don't understand what it measures or how to use it appropriately, then I agree, those people should not use it.

[tsherkin]

I was about to say this as well. Spurs Demar was better than the Demar we had. Maybe we could have won more series if we had that version

Probably not, because adjusted for era his TS% wasn’t meaningful higher than league average in SA than it was in TOR.

He still was a god awful defender, who couldn’t space the floor, and wasn’t good enough to be a #1 scorer. That never changed

Demar was at 97, 107 and 103 TS+ with the Spurs. He averaged 99 with Toronto and was never higher than 102. In 2020, he was at that 107, and we didn't get to see postseason Demar because the Spurs didn't make it, but the year before? 99 with San Antonio in the postseason, 55.7% TS. Pretty much spot-on Toronto Demar. His raw FG% was pretty high compared to his time in Toronto (48.7% vs an average of 41.0% with us in the playoffs), which is worth noting, but overall, he was -0.3% rTS compared to playoff league average, and that's about where you expect him to be, generally speaking.

It's unlikely much would have changed with that version. He often reverted to the same guy in the playoffs. He made improvements over his RS performances and stuff and that's nice, but he was still the same issue come the playoffs.

[MiamiSPX]

Speaking of DeRozan, is this the first calendar year he doesn't whine about the trade, or is there a podcast interview I missed?

[MoneyBall]

Speaking of DeRozan, is this the first calendar year he doesn't whine about the trade, or is there a podcast interview I missed?

He loved this city and the fans, he really wanted to stay here. Take it as a compliment.

[YogurtProducer]

You're just trolling at this point. There's zero acknowledgement on your part that you were dead wrong about viewing ORtg as a "best player" stat. A 10-second Google search would have fixed that.

To add, individual ORtg and team ORtg are obviously different.... well, it's obvious to most people. Allen (team best) had an ORtg of 142, while Tristan Thomson (team worst) had an ORtg of 100. The Cavs as a team had an ORtg of 121.7. Clearly they are not the same thing.

Poeltl has consistently been one of the most effecient bigs in the league while being on bad teams his entire career. Meanwhile, Ingram's All-Star year in 2020 came with an ORtg of 112, which is perfectly average, nothing great.

Calling ORtg a 'fantasy box score' just broadcasts that you don't know what goes into it. Which is typical for you, but still frustrating given your arrogance.

If "doesn't account for team factor" disqualifies a stat for you, then go ahead and delete TS% from your vocabulary too. By your standard, it's even more "useless".

If you genuinely think a metric that includes shooting efficiency, turnovers, offensive rebounds, assists, and assists quality "tells you nothing" then we're not even having a basketball discussion anymore.

I thought we decided a decade ago to ignore individual ORTG. I guess some people haven’t yet.

If poeple don't understand what it measures or how to use it appropriately, then I agree, those people should not use it.

Like this?

Don't confuse scoring effeciency with offensive efficiency:

DeMar career ORtg of 113
Ingram career ORtg of 109

DeMar career OBPM of +1.6
Ingram career OBPM of +0.8

^ This tells you nothing about Demar or Ingram. It tells you Demar had better box score stats (because despite what you believe, that is how these two #'s are contrived). All these numbers do is take their box scores and computes a #.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm2.html

Box Plus/Minus, Version 2.0 (BPM) is a basketball box score-based metric that estimates a basketball player’s contribution to the team when that player is on the court. It is based only on the information in the traditional basketball box score--no play-by-play data or non-traditional box score data (like dunks or deflections) are included.

Like sheesh man. Just accept it already lol. It is not an impact stat, so it does not take into consideration quality of opponents or teammates. It doesn't care "why" something happens, just that it did. Not to mention, it adjusts for "position" which means Demar (a SG) and Ingram (a SF/PF) do not even follow the same formula.