Decision making during our "rebuild" has been shockingly terrible. Review of timeline + path forward

[Johnny Bball]

There are plenty of games where Barnes has played exceptionally well and the Raps still lose (marginally) but you're right to say that when Scottie mails it in the Raps are virtually guaranteed to not win the game.

It’s not mailing it in, he is expected to do so much on defense, he literally caries our defense, while also is surrounded by low IQ players on offense. He just doesn’t have the motor for that. His role on defense should be reduced. His offensive role should be clearer not only for him but also his teammates. That’s the job of the coach and the point guard.

Impressive to be such a Scottie fan and yet be so out of touch with his skill set.

The timing is pretty funny considering he just had a great defensive game, and a great overall game, grabbed 25 boards, scored over 20 and played his usually game with a considerable motor increase. When they win, it's all because of Barnes, when they lose, he surrounded by "low IQ players"? Ugh.

Its clear as day that Barnes does not give 100% all the time, or better stated, is not as aggressive as everyone wants him to be on offense, especially first halfs. And its not infrequent.

[Duffman100]

That's the part that's puzzling to me. We literally put pieces around Scottie to compliment his game and not have him doing stuff he can't do well. He's not much of a screener, so we got Jak. Not much of a shooter, so we got IQ. Not a good driver, so we got RJ. Not a good ISO scorer, so we got Ingram.

People still seem to have this fantasy that he's Giannis light and just needs all shooters around him so he can go to work.

He's still by far our best player. There's no doubt about that.

He's just not a guy you'd focus on finding the "right pieces" to build around him. Rather challenge him to develop the diversity of skills to be plug and play with any lineup.

Btw it would be nice to see some of these posters in this thread actually post when we're winning.

I have to disagree he is our best player. I would even argue that Barrett is better than him. Barnes showed some flashes, but you can tell those flashes won't be consistent.

I also don't see him being a hard worker like Siakam, where these hard worker can get to their ceiling. He is just popular because of his social media status and marketing.

Still disagree he's our best player?

[Indeed]

He's still by far our best player. There's no doubt about that.

He's just not a guy you'd focus on finding the "right pieces" to build around him. Rather challenge him to develop the diversity of skills to be plug and play with any lineup.

Btw it would be nice to see some of these posters in this thread actually post when we're winning.

I have to disagree he is our best player. I would even argue that Barrett is better than him. Barnes showed some flashes, but you can tell those flashes won't be consistent.

I also don't see him being a hard worker like Siakam, where these hard worker can get to their ceiling. He is just popular because of his social media status and marketing.

Still disagree he's our best player?

Said it on another post, Ingram is still our best player.

To me, he is only good with his bullying, which is good against small lineups (eg. Heat, Hawks, Warrirors), perhaps we can review this after tonight and the next game against bigger and more physical lineups, where things are trending. Same as Barrett in excelling on one end with some situation, while the other end needs to be hide.

[MiamiSPX]

I also don’t think Barnes is a superstar that can be our best defender and our main offensive threat at the same time-

That is why the latest gripes about Scottie not scoring enough are just a strawman for his haters to grasp on to something. He is playing at All-Defensive level (7th in current odds for DPOY, currently 5th best defensive rating) but you also want him to score 25 PPG lol? That is a top 5 player, something we all know he's not end never will be.

[DreamTeam09]

I have to disagree he is our best player. I would even argue that Barrett is better than him. Barnes showed some flashes, but you can tell those flashes won't be consistent.

I also don't see him being a hard worker like Siakam, where these hard worker can get to their ceiling. He is just popular because of his social media status and marketing.

Still disagree he's our best player?

Said it on another post, Ingram is still our best player.

To me, he is only good with his bullying, which is good against small lineups (eg. Heat, Hawks, Warrirors), perhaps we can review this after tonight and the next game against bigger and more physical lineups, where things are trending. Same as Barrett in excelling on one end with some situation, while the other end needs to be hide.

you don't need to hide Scottie on offense that's nonsense, even when Scottie doesn't have a mismatch he's still able to affect the game like getting 25rbs or 4stocks or 10ast

[Indeed]

Still disagree he's our best player?

Said it on another post, Ingram is still our best player.

To me, he is only good with his bullying, which is good against small lineups (eg. Heat, Hawks, Warrirors), perhaps we can review this after tonight and the next game against bigger and more physical lineups, where things are trending. Same as Barrett in excelling on one end with some situation, while the other end needs to be hide.

you don't need to hide Scottie on offense that's nonsense, even when Scottie doesn't have a mismatch he's still able to affect the game like getting 25rbs or 4stocks or 10ast

You hide him as a C, he is not a C.
His 9 offensive rebounds are more against smaller lineup, and which is why I said we can review this after against bigger and more physical lineups, you don't have to rush for just a good game, right?

[YogurtProducer]

It’s not mailing it in, he is expected to do so much on defense, he literally caries our defense, while also is surrounded by low IQ players on offense. He just doesn’t have the motor for that. His role on defense should be reduced. His offensive role should be clearer not only for him but also his teammates. That’s the job of the coach and the point guard.

Impressive to be such a Scottie fan and yet be so out of touch with his skill set.

The timing is pretty funny considering he just had a great defensive game, and a great overall game, grabbed 25 boards, scored over 20 and played his usually game with a considerable motor increase. When they win, it's all because of Barnes, when they lose, he surrounded by "low IQ players"? Ugh.

Its clear as day that Barnes does not give 100% all the time, or better stated, is not as aggressive as everyone wants him to be on offense, especially first halfs. And its not infrequent.

Yep. Scottie at his best is when he’s super engaged and just being a maniac defensively. Anyone who’s watched this team over the last 5 years and still thinks he needs more offensive responsibility is just a Barnes homer. Yesterday he got us 20 and didn’t really have anything ran for him - and that’s okay because he really ain’t good enough to have offence ran for him.

But the idea Barnes is carrying the defence to isn’t fair to the rest of the roster. We have a 107DRTG when Barnes sits. A big reason why is that our bench is full of plus defenders, and guys like IQ/Jak in the SL are above average at their position to.

But yeah, calling our team “low IQ” is also a bunch of crap.

[DreamTeam09]

Said it on another post, Ingram is still our best player.

To me, he is only good with his bullying, which is good against small lineups (eg. Heat, Hawks, Warrirors), perhaps we can review this after tonight and the next game against bigger and more physical lineups, where things are trending. Same as Barrett in excelling on one end with some situation, while the other end needs to be hide.

you don't need to hide Scottie on offense that's nonsense, even when Scottie doesn't have a mismatch he's still able to affect the game like getting 25rbs or 4stocks or 10ast

You hide him as a C, he is not a C.
His 9 offensive rebounds are more against smaller lineup, and which is why I said we can review this after against bigger and more physical lineups, you don't have to rush for just a good game, right?

.
I mean we've seen him against the Cavs/Miami/Spurs/ect ect ect, not sure what exactly it is you're looking for, true #1 top5 player in the league? He's not that, doesn't mean he's useless.
& yeah he's not a full-time C, but no team should have a full-time 6'9 C, gsw included

[Indeed]

you don't need to hide Scottie on offense that's nonsense, even when Scottie doesn't have a mismatch he's still able to affect the game like getting 25rbs or 4stocks or 10ast

You hide him as a C, he is not a C.
His 9 offensive rebounds are more against smaller lineup, and which is why I said we can review this after against bigger and more physical lineups, you don't have to rush for just a good game, right?

.
I mean we've seen him against the Cavs/Miami/Spurs/ect ect ect, not sure what exactly it is you're looking for, true #1 top5 player in the league? He's not that, doesn't mean he's useless.
& yeah he's not a full-time C, but no team should have a full-time 6'9 C, gsw included

All I am saying is, Ingram is our best player, period.
He is not a near-max without a consistent 3 point shot that can have teams guarding him on the perimeter.
We can certainly come back to this at the end of the season.

[720]

There are plenty of games where Barnes has played exceptionally well and the Raps still lose (marginally) but you're right to say that when Scottie mails it in the Raps are virtually guaranteed to not win the game.

It’s not mailing it in, he is expected to do so much on defense, he literally caries our defense, while also is surrounded by low IQ players on offense. He just doesn’t have the motor for that. His role on defense should be reduced. His offensive role should be clearer not only for him but also his teammates. That’s the job of the coach and the point guard.

Impressive to be such a Scottie fan and yet be so out of touch with his skill set.

Can’t refute anything I said so you’re deflecting. I hope you’re a Scottie fan too. Considering he’s by far our best player and the future of this franchise. Or are you secretly a rockets fan?

[Duffman100]

It’s not mailing it in, he is expected to do so much on defense, he literally caries our defense, while also is surrounded by low IQ players on offense. He just doesn’t have the motor for that. His role on defense should be reduced. His offensive role should be clearer not only for him but also his teammates. That’s the job of the coach and the point guard.

Impressive to be such a Scottie fan and yet be so out of touch with his skill set.

Can’t refute anything I said so you’re deflecting. I hope you’re a Scottie fan too. Considering he’s by far our best player and the future of this franchise. Or are you secretly a rockets fan?

Oh my god man, nobody talks about FVV anymore but you. Stop.

[VanWest82]

Again...if you think we actually tried to tank the right way for 2 years is hilarious to me....We tried to win the last two years we just sucked....Last year we tried to win at the start of the year and quickly realized we sucked so we strated to tank....We didn't have a pick since we traded it in 2024 ....No incentive to tank....

Yes, I think we tanked the right way. And No, we did not "try to win and just sucked." Key players got hurt and were out for extended periods, and so we decided to tank. In 2024, we absolutely tried to tank down the stretch to keep our pick. You are engaging in revisionist history.

Also, surely you are aware that teams can't just lose on purpose. There are rules against that including potentially losing your pick over it. But even then, we skirted the line a number of times sitting guys out when they could've played, not even bothering to ramp up Ingram after the trade and treating his ankle sprain like a season ending injury.

And i am right this team is not as good as you are trying to make it out to be....And no one said CMB sucks man....I said a top 5 2026 Draft pick is 100000x more valuble than CMB ever will be and there is no arguing that....Idk wtf you are trying to argue tbh are you trying to say we are a potential finals run team in the making? Or you are happy being middle of the pack team? with no real upside to improve on it? I have no idea what your position is but yeah i will be right this team will ultimatly end in us tanking again in a few years with nothing to show for but a first round or another play in loss....With more low tier prospects...

I've explained this a bunch now so this will be my last response. It was apparent last season we were already too good to tank properly, especially given how historically awful the East was and looked to be moving forward the next couple of years, and so we switched gears and traded for Ingram to compete for a bit. Had we been in the stacked West with different ownership, maybe FO would've thought differently about it. No one believes this is a Finals team. It's a playoff caliber team with a 2nd round ceiling that probably loses in Rd1 - btw that's most playoff teams with only ~6-7 teams having a conference finals ceiling. It's the same every year. But if you're too good to tank because you have too much talent and other teams in your conference are too awful, and there's a reasonable path to being a decent team, maybe winning a playoff series, and biding your time, then you take it. After all, there are other paths to acquiring talent besides tanking - one of which is developing trade assets on a good team and using them in a trade, something we've already done to win a title, and something other teams have done in the past to trade back into the draft (which you'll recall we had this option with the Shaeden Sharpe pick a few years ago).

In short, even though I would've done a lot differently over the past few years, I'm not unhappy with the decision to trade for Ingram and compete this year and next. As of today, it looks like a better path than the one not chosen where we fire sale distressed assets coming off a terrible year with guys not trying in a tank year, and try to out tank all these awful East teams so we can pick 7-10 range again. Rebuild in 2027 (if needed) when we there's a viable path.

[YogurtProducer]

It’s not mailing it in, he is expected to do so much on defense, he literally caries our defense, while also is surrounded by low IQ players on offense. He just doesn’t have the motor for that. His role on defense should be reduced. His offensive role should be clearer not only for him but also his teammates. That’s the job of the coach and the point guard.

Impressive to be such a Scottie fan and yet be so out of touch with his skill set.

Can’t refute anything I said so you’re deflecting. I hope you’re a Scottie fan too. Considering he’s by far our best player and the future of this franchise. Or are you secretly a rockets fan?

I mean, there’s mounds of evidence that Scottie is miles ahead defensively than he is offensively, so it certainly is a pretty substantially controversial take to suggest he should get less defensive responsibility and more offensive.

He also does have a clear role offensively. You just don’t agree with it.

[720]

Impressive to be such a Scottie fan and yet be so out of touch with his skill set.

Can’t refute anything I said so you’re deflecting. I hope you’re a Scottie fan too. Considering he’s by far our best player and the future of this franchise. Or are you secretly a rockets fan?

I mean, there’s mounds of evidence that Scottie is miles ahead defensively than he is offensively, so it certainly is a pretty substantially controversial take to suggest he should get less defensive responsibility and more offensive.

He also does have a clear role offensively. You just don’t agree with it.

His role is non existent on offense. I don’t agree with that you’re right.

I don’t like how he is viewed as this shut down OG type one on one defender. He clearly does not have the stamina for that. I strongly feel that is why he often goes quarters if not half’s looking a step slow. He should be a roaming help defender type full time with occasional one on one matchups vs the best player.

[YogurtProducer]

Can’t refute anything I said so you’re deflecting. I hope you’re a Scottie fan too. Considering he’s by far our best player and the future of this franchise. Or are you secretly a rockets fan?

I mean, there’s mounds of evidence that Scottie is miles ahead defensively than he is offensively, so it certainly is a pretty substantially controversial take to suggest he should get less defensive responsibility and more offensive.

He also does have a clear role offensively. You just don’t agree with it.

His role is non existent on offense. I don’t agree with that you’re right.

I don’t like how he is viewed as this shut down OG type one on one defender. He clearly does not have the stamina for that. I strongly feel that is why he often goes quarters if not half’s looking a step slow. He should be a roaming help defender type full time with occasional one on one matchups vs the best player.

I don’t think he really has been used as a shutdown guy really at all this season?

His role offensively is still pretty huge. Hes 2nd in scoring, 2nd in assists, etc. Hes also putting up career best figures this season with the decreased offensive responsibility.

Im just curious how anyone can think Scottie deserves more offensive responsibility.

[ConSarnit]

I also don’t think Barnes is a superstar that can be our best defender and our main offensive threat at the same time-

That is why the latest gripes about Scottie not scoring enough are just a strawman for his haters to grasp on to something. He is playing at All-Defensive level (7th in current odds for DPOY, currently 5th best defensive rating) but you also want him to score 25 PPG lol? That is a top 5 player, something we all know he's not end never will be.

There has been excuse making on both sides.

Last season we had multiple posters arguing that Barnes was unable to give full defensive effort because we were tasking him with too much offensive responsibility. Barnes’ more “enthusiastic” fanbase was acting like we were using Barnes like he was Luka or Harden on offense. Barnes has never had an offensive role that should have precluded him from giving good effort on the defensive end at all times.

Conversely, no one should expect 25ppg from Barnes because he clearly doesn’t have the skillset to score at that level. 19ppg at league average efficiency + all-D level play should be a satisfactory outcome for everyone.

[ConSarnit]

I mean, there’s mounds of evidence that Scottie is miles ahead defensively than he is offensively, so it certainly is a pretty substantially controversial take to suggest he should get less defensive responsibility and more offensive.

He also does have a clear role offensively. You just don’t agree with it.

His role is non existent on offense. I don’t agree with that you’re right.

I don’t like how he is viewed as this shut down OG type one on one defender. He clearly does not have the stamina for that. I strongly feel that is why he often goes quarters if not half’s looking a step slow. He should be a roaming help defender type full time with occasional one on one matchups vs the best player.

I don’t think he really has been used as a shutdown guy really at all this season?

His role offensively is still pretty huge. Hes 2nd in scoring, 2nd in assists, etc. Hes also putting up career best figures this season with the decreased offensive responsibility.

Im just curious how anyone can think Scottie deserves more offensive responsibility.

The argument makes no sense.

2nd in scoring, 2nd in FGA, 2nd in usage, 2nd in iso possessions, 1st in post-up possessions.

But apparently that’s “non-existent”

[Skeezo]

We should've been in a rebuild the day the 4th pick in the 2021 draft fall into our laps.... Since then I barely can enjoy or watch any raptors games/seasons to the fullest.

We should have been in a rebuild the day Kawhi left.. Our management was afraid to take chances.

This right here! I had to look back to see when I pretty much stopped posting here. After spending most of 2020 and 2021 arguing with posters on why we needed to tear it down, I ultimately left.

The 2020 season was a great run and tribute to a team that wanted to prove they were more than just Kawhi, but that was when we needed to pull the plug. That run was great, but it effectively ensured we would lose Gasol and Ibaka for nothing after already losing Kawai. Not saying Gasol or Ibaka could have garnered a significant haul, but two veteran Centres who contributed to a championship on expiring deals would have an each gotten at least a late-1st Rd pick.

Additionally, no-one will be able to convince me that in 2021 when the 76er-Raptors trade rumours for Kyle Lowry were taking place that we could not have gotten Maxey from them. The fact was Masai wanted too much. He was asking for Thybulle, and/or Maxey, and picks. If the Raptors would settled on Maxey alone or, with only one pick attached, that deal gets done.

Finally, losing FVV for nothing was the nail in the coffin for poor asset management

We can argue the effectiveness of moves that have hindered our rebuild such as:
• Powell for Trent Jr
• Thad Young Trade
• Poeltl Trade
• Draft Picks (Dick, Walter)
• Signing Compensation (Poeltl, Quickly, Ingram, etc.)

However, ultimately it was not beginning the rebuild sooner and our asset management that allowed us to lose too much talent for nothing.

[brownbobcat]

We should've been in a rebuild the day the 4th pick in the 2021 draft fall into our laps.... Since then I barely can enjoy or watch any raptors games/seasons to the fullest.

We should have been in a rebuild the day Kawhi left.. Our management was afraid to take chances.

This right here! I had to look back to see when I pretty much stopped posting here. After spending most of 2020 and 2021 arguing with posters on why we needed to tear it down, I ultimately left.

The 2020 season was a great run and tribute to a team that wanted to prove they were more than just Kawhi, but that was when we needed to pull the plug. That run was great, but it effectively ensured we would lose Gasol and Ibaka for nothing after already losing Kawai. Not saying Gasol or Ibaka could have garnered a significant haul, but two veteran Centres who contributed to a championship on expiring deals would have an each gotten at least a late-1st Rd pick.

Additionally, no-one will be able to convince me that in 2021 when the 76er-Raptors trade rumours for Kyle Lowry were taking place that we could not have gotten Maxey from them. The fact was Masai wanted too much. He was asking for Thybulle, and/or Maxey, and picks. If the Raptors would settled on Maxey alone or, with only one pick attached, that deal gets done.

Finally, losing FVV for nothing was the nail in the coffin for poor asset management

We can argue the effectiveness of moves that have hindered our rebuild such as:
• Powell for Trent Jr
• Thad Young Trade
• Poeltl Trade
• Draft Picks (Dick, Walter)
• Signing Compensation (Poeltl, Quickly, Ingram, etc.)

However, ultimately it was not beginning the rebuild sooner and our asset management that allowed us to lose too much talent for nothing.

We ultimately don't know that the sticking point in the Sixers negotiation was. Lowry was nowhere close to his AS form at that point and knowing Morey, it's quite possible Maxey was never available. When they were going after Harden a year later, it was widely reported that Maxey was off-limits. Obviously he had taken a jump at that point, but Harden was also a far superior player.

My main issue with the FO since 2022 is that they keep doubling down on being "competitive" and haven't committed to truly building through the draft.

[Skeezo]

We should have been in a rebuild the day Kawhi left.. Our management was afraid to take chances.

This right here! I had to look back to see when I pretty much stopped posting here. After spending most of 2020 and 2021 arguing with posters on why we needed to tear it down, I ultimately left.

The 2020 season was a great run and tribute to a team that wanted to prove they were more than just Kawhi, but that was when we needed to pull the plug. That run was great, but it effectively ensured we would lose Gasol and Ibaka for nothing after already losing Kawai. Not saying Gasol or Ibaka could have garnered a significant haul, but two veteran Centres who contributed to a championship on expiring deals would have an each gotten at least a late-1st Rd pick.

Additionally, no-one will be able to convince me that in 2021 when the 76er-Raptors trade rumours for Kyle Lowry were taking place that we could not have gotten Maxey from them. The fact was Masai wanted too much. He was asking for Thybulle, and/or Maxey, and picks. If the Raptors would settled on Maxey alone or, with only one pick attached, that deal gets done.

Finally, losing FVV for nothing was the nail in the coffin for poor asset management

We can argue the effectiveness of moves that have hindered our rebuild such as:
• Powell for Trent Jr
• Thad Young Trade
• Poeltl Trade
• Draft Picks (Dick, Walter)
• Signing Compensation (Poeltl, Quickly, Ingram, etc.)

However, ultimately it was not beginning the rebuild sooner and our asset management that allowed us to lose too much talent for nothing.

We ultimately don't know that the sticking point in the Sixers negotiation was. Lowry was nowhere close to his AS form at that point and knowing Morey, it's quite possible Maxey was never available. When they were going after Harden a year later, it was widely reported that Maxey was off-limits. Obviously he had taken a jump at that point, but Harden was also a far superior player.

My main issue with the FO since 2022 is that they keep doubling down on being "competitive" and haven't committed to truly building through the draft.

Logic states to be notable trade partner worthy of being in "legitimate rumoured discussions," there has to be something that is on the table that is worthwhile that both teams have interest in. If Lowry wasn't worth much, then why was Masai's rumoured ask so high of Thybulle, Maxey plus multiple picks being bantered? There was nothing else on the 76er roster at the time that the Raptors would even consider of value, and Morey offering something like two second round picks and salary filler would not have generated "rumoured trade talks" between the teams. Do I believe Maxey was on the table in a premium package that included another young asset and multiple draft assets? No... Do I think the 76ers were in legitimate trade talks for Lowry without offering any young asset in return? Also, No... Finally, as you mentioned Maxey was nowhere near the player in Feb 2021 that he was in Feb 2022, and Harden was indeed the superior player, but let's also look what was returned. Simmons was still only 24 yrs old and seen as repairable from only being 2 years removed from being an All-NBA player, Drummond, + two first round picks. That is a vastly different package then for Lowry

I don't disagree with your point on the front office's half-measure decision-making though. The Raps needed to pick a lane, and didn't.