Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 5

[wanker]

I don't understand Chad Ford talking about Barnes having a tournament worthy of a #1 pick and comparing him to Williams. 21ppg on 19 shots while not creating much himself sounds like a #1 pick

If Barnes goes top 2 it's Marvin Williams all over again

I am going to straight-up call you out here...your track record in terms of prospect analysis has been poor. Rubio, Henderson, Thabeet...to name a few, all players you thought had no bust potential, look at em now. You were also pretty wrong about Derozan, as you wrote him off before he even played an NBA game. You wanted nothing to do with Tyreke Evans who was deservedly the ROY last year and has had a down season this year because of injury.

But hey, even a broken clock is right twice a day...so who knows, right?

Don't forget Dr. Mufasa's most recent prophesy:

We're going to be talking about the Ed Davis/Patrick Patterson pick for a long time I think. Patterson is a perenniel all-star talent and unbelievably misread pre draft day. He has explosiveness, size, great finishing hands, an elite jumpshot, great work ethic, great bball IQ. What more could you want from a PF prospect? Right now if I had to take 09 draftees I'd go 1. Wall 2. Patterson 3. Monroe.

I don't care about PER. As a prospect Patterson is >>>> Davis and we **** up ... again. Patterson's offensive talent is light years ahead of him and even has the defense/rebounding potential of Davis. We're the latest team to take raw and unskilled over polished offensively just because of a few years difference. Flynn over Lawson for PFs

[Reignman]

That's why it's foolish to talk in absolutes about something so subjective as draft prospects and what they will become.

hell, I've made some terrible predictions in the past but I never guarantee anything. Whiteside and Teague come to mind immediately. I liked them as prospects and would have taken them much higher than they eventually went. Now the book is still out but I'm glad we didn't draft those guys with our pick.

Same with Barnes, I like him and would take him #2 but I'm not going to sit here and guarantee he's the next Paul Pierce (or Marvin Williams).

[FluLikeSymptoms]

Marvin was coming off the bench at UNC because he somehow managed to be a college tweener. Chris Paul was a short, bad person and Deron Williams was fat- Marvin was just the anti-#1 to Bogut and the Hawks bought in like fools. Bogut was the boring, old fashioned pivot and Marvin was the athletic question mark and it was assumed he could play the PF.

Kind of like now, Kyrie is the old-fashioned lead guard and Brandon Knight is the athletic question mark. As the workouts go, I think Knight will get up to #2 on most boards because he is what Kyrie is not and it won't matter what else he is or isn't, just that he's just more explosive than Kyrie and Derrick Rose will will the MVP as the most explosive guard in the NBA.

Harrison Barnes is the opposite of Marvin Williams. He is far from unknown, he has a true position and the requisite skills. It's a matter of transposing his current game to the NBA level, which seems likely to me. He's boring. Yes, please.

[5DOM]

Sure, some guys may have had better tourneys and some may have been more consistent throughout the year but that's only one small part of evaluating talent.

Except that shouldn't be a small part of evaluating talent. Not considering actual production and impact on the floor much is the exact reason Marvin Williams went so high and ahead of Paul and Deron Williams. And let me ask you this. What makes Barnes a better prospect than Brandon Knight? Knight himself seems to have everything that you value the most in Barnes:
Work ethic
Basketball IQ
Great size for his position
Ability to hit clutch shots

Knight's also had a better year than Barnes while playing a more important role for his team. I've always said this, but I think the most likely outcome for Barnes is Luol Deng who shares lots of similarities with Barnes but actually had a better freshman year than Barnes. I also don't see Barnes having a very high ceiling. Do I want Luol Deng with a 2nd pick? I am not too sure, especially with the SF prospects expected next year.

[Reignman]

Sure, some guys may have had better tourneys and some may have been more consistent throughout the year but that's only one small part of evaluating talent.

Except that shouldn't be a small part of evaluating talent. Not considering actual production and impact on the floor much is the exact reason Marvin Williams went so high and ahead of Paul and Deron Williams. And let me ask you this. What makes Barnes a better prospect than Brandon Knight? Knight himself seems to have everything that you value the most in Barnes:
Work ethic
Basketball IQ
Great size for his position
Ability to hit clutch shots

Knight's also had a better year than Barnes while playing a more important role for his team. I've always said this, but I think the most likely outcome for Barnes is Luol Deng who shares lots of similarities with Barnes but actually had a better freshman year than Barnes. I also don't see Barnes having a very high ceiling. Do I want Luol Deng with a 2nd pick? I am not too sure.

I actually have Knight at 3 on my own big board. I kind of view Knight / Barnes in the same manner and wouldn't be upset with one over the other although I prefer Barnes because he has 3 skills that will transfer over very nicely for the NBA and our team in particular - Defense, rebounding and 3 pt shot. My one main concern with Knight is his passing game and that's crucial to his position which is why I have Barnes at 2 and Knight at 3.

Both have the requisite athleticism, both can defend their position, both have great work ethic and both seem like high IQ guys.

The question I have with Barnes is if he can become dynamic enough on offense to be a top 2 option on a team. With defense/rebounding I think he'll be fine and he has great mechanics on his J so I'm not too concerned about his percentages in college (his 2nd half % are much better than his first half).

With Knight it all comes down to his ability to run a team. Everything else about his game I love but can he get his teammates going?

[Alfred]

The thing that gives me pause about Barnes is that he operates behind a jumpshot that isn't incredibly consistent, and he's not a superior athlete. His defensive potential looks very good though; he's got great lateral footspeed, and he really wants to lock down his man.

[bboyskinnylegs]

I'm liking this early group workout idea... we'll get a better idea of where some of these prospects stack up, and they don't have to risk their eligibility.

[FluLikeSymptoms]

The thing that gives me pause about Barnes is that he operates behind a jumpshot that isn't incredibly consistent, and he's not a superior athlete. His defensive potential looks very good though; he's got great lateral footspeed, and he really wants to lock down his man.

He misses, but he's got great balance, escape moves and a college-consistent stroke IMO.

Agree with the defensive potential. He's got the physical tools, edge, willingness and the brain, which could be his best feature.

[Reignman]

One quality about Barnes/Knight that 5DM mentioned that I completely love is their closer's mentality. Both guys have taken and made a few extremely high pressure shots. To me, that shows supreme confidence in themselves and that can only be a good thing moving forward. Kyrie has that as well which is why they are in my top 3.

Really, I'm placing a very high emphasis on two-way potential this draft. That's why tweeners like D-Will aren't in my top 5. The only exception I've made is P Jones and that's because he just has elite size/length/athleticism that can't be glossed over (as long as he's deemed to be a SF).

[JohnVancouver]

Given the year PHX has had and the roster problems the owner's signings have caused, this is the first summer when dealing Nash is a very real option for the FO.

They for sure want your pick - what deal would you make? Nash would bring many millions to MLSE in ticket and merch sales, huge publicity and would really help your young guys shine. Good basketball and business reasons to do it.

[Reignman]

Given the year PHX has had and the roster problems the owner's signings have caused, this is the first summer when dealing Nash is a very real option for the FO.

They for sure want your pick - what deal would you make? Nash would bring many millions to MLSE in ticket and merch sales, huge publicity and would really help your young guys shine. Good basketball and business reasons to do it.

There's really no point in us bringing Nash here now. When we had Bosh it made some sense but now we're in the fetus stage of our rebuild. The cost would be too great because we need to add young prospects to this roster moving forward not lose them for vets that won't put us over the top.

I love Nash but unfortunately it's just not a good fit. He deserves to go to a contender, not a rebuilding team.

[Dr Positivity]

I don't understand Chad Ford talking about Barnes having a tournament worthy of a #1 pick and comparing him to Williams. 21ppg on 19 shots while not creating much himself sounds like a #1 pick

If Barnes goes top 2 it's Marvin Williams all over again

I am going to straight-up call you out here...your track record in terms of prospect analysis has been poor. Rubio, Henderson, Thabeet...to name a few, all players you thought had no bust potential, look at em now. You were also pretty wrong about Derozan, as you wrote him off before he even played an NBA game. You wanted nothing to do with Tyreke Evans who was deservedly the ROY last year and has had a down season this year because of injury.

But hey, even a broken clock is right twice a day...so who knows, right?

Whoa whoa whoa. I don't remember pushing Thabeet. I might have said if he falls to 9 or 10 it might be worth it but I don't remember talking about him at all that draft. He wasn't falling to us and it didn't matter.

Hendo over Derozan, sure. It's not like he's playing worse at this point, despite half as many minutes in his career. I also had Jennings #1 on my big board at 9, and said Lawson, Clark, Teague and Budinger were the most underrated non lotto guys. Looks like I went 50% on that so far but we'll see, it's still early and Clark and Teague haven't gotten much PT. I hated Terrence Williams, Jordan Hill, and Psycho T the most of the top 16 prospects and was far more out on Tyreke than others even though I know he'd put up stats. I eventually predicted 18 5 and 5 for his rookie season while maintaining he'd never win anything as he's a ball dominant player who's not good enough to be one. Halfway through his "amazing" rookie season I said I'd rather have Derozan and Tyreke wouldn't be a starter on a winning team which got me in a Sac fan's sig. I think I gauged Tyreke's NBA career 100% right and wouldn't want him for free as of today. I loved Rubio but who didn't?

I didn't argue as much in 10 about the rankings but was higher on Monroe than everyone and said he was the 2nd or 3rd best prospect after Wall. I said Favors was overrated and hated the Udoh and Hayward picks like everyone else. I liked Patterson more than most. I missed on Evan Turner (though it's still early), Xavier Henry and Cole Aldrich like everyone else.

Fittingly I think my most regrettable stance was being anti Derozan now that Hendo's playing well, but otherwise I don't think my track record is anything to sniff against

[Ducksplatt]

Am I the only one here that wouldn't really mind getting Kemba Walker or Brandon Knight?

I'm not even sure which of the 2 I like best at this point between them. I get the general feeling on here that losing out on Barnes or Irving is a disaster for this season.

I don't feel that way.

I like Knight. I think he has some Billups in him. And I think he could become a leader of a team.

[Dr Positivity]

Marvin was coming off the bench at UNC because he somehow managed to be a college tweener. Chris Paul was a short, bad person and Deron Williams was fat- Marvin was just the anti-#1 to Bogut and the Hawks bought in like fools. Bogut was the boring, old fashioned pivot and Marvin was the athletic question mark and it was assumed he could play the PF.

Kind of like now, Kyrie is the old-fashioned lead guard and Brandon Knight is the athletic question mark. As the workouts go, I think Knight will get up to #2 on most boards because he is what Kyrie is not and it won't matter what else he is or isn't, just that he's just more explosive than Kyrie and Derrick Rose will will the MVP as the most explosive guard in the NBA.

Harrison Barnes is the opposite of Marvin Williams. He is far from unknown, he has a true position and the requisite skills. It's a matter of transposing his current game to the NBA level, which seems likely to me. He's boring. Yes, please.

I agree there's a good chance now Irving lands at 3 or 4 in a Paul like drop. I think here are the reasons a top 2 team could pass on Irving

- Derrick Williams: Seems to be emerging as the consensus #1. Athletic and strong is the name of the game for #1 picks and he has a lot more of that than Irving
- Washington - Definitely not taking Irving
- Minnesota - Kahn is all in on Rubio. Methinks he takes Harrison Barnes or Alec Burks, an athletic SG with amazing handles and great penetration ability who needs a jumper and strength - Sounds like a top pick and exactly what Minnesota would look at

Very good chance that Williams goes 1, Washington/Minny goes 2 and passes on Irving and someone at 3 takes Irving IMO. If Washington and Minny are 2 and 3 Irving could go 4.

[Ducksplatt]

Marvin was coming off the bench at UNC because he somehow managed to be a college tweener. Chris Paul was a short, bad person and Deron Williams was fat- Marvin was just the anti-#1 to Bogut and the Hawks bought in like fools. Bogut was the boring, old fashioned pivot and Marvin was the athletic question mark and it was assumed he could play the PF.

Kind of like now, Kyrie is the old-fashioned lead guard and Brandon Knight is the athletic question mark. As the workouts go, I think Knight will get up to #2 on most boards because he is what Kyrie is not and it won't matter what else he is or isn't, just that he's just more explosive than Kyrie and Derrick Rose will will the MVP as the most explosive guard in the NBA.

Harrison Barnes is the opposite of Marvin Williams. He is far from unknown, he has a true position and the requisite skills. It's a matter of transposing his current game to the NBA level, which seems likely to me. He's boring. Yes, please.

I agree there's a good chance now Irving lands at 3 or 4 in a Paul like drop. I think here are the reasons a top 2 team could pass on Irving

- Derrick Williams: Seems to be emerging as the consensus #1. Athletic and strong is the name of the game for #1 picks and he has a lot more of that than Irving
- Washington - Definitely not taking Irving
- Minnesota - Kahn is all in on Rubio. Methinks he takes Harrison Barnes or Alec Burks, an athletic SG with amazing handles and great penetration ability who needs a jumper and strength - Sounds like a top pick and exactly what Minnesota would look at

Very good chance that Williams goes 1, Washington/Minny goes 2 and passes on Irving and someone at 3 takes Irving IMO. If Washington and Minny are 2 and 3 Irving could go 4.

That would be a dream if he dropped. As long as the raps don't start winning games of course and screw up #4 (or bad ping pong balls cause us to drop).

[Dr Positivity]

It'd be franchise changing luck to land at 3 and watch the board go 1. Cleveland/Sac/Detroit/Utah/Milwaukee - Derrick Williams 2. Minnesota - Harrison Barnes 3. Toronto - Kyrie Irving. I'd literally yell KAHNNN!!! in joy and tears as Barnes put on that hat

[Reignman]

Lots of laughable assumptions being made here.

[5DOM]

If Cavs take Williams which is a strong possibility, I can see Kyrie falling to 4. But I think another team trades up to get him before they let that happen. Hopefully that's us

[just23]

If Barnes goes back to NC and we somehow wind up with the number 2 pick I'd either want one of Kanter, Jonas or Knight, or draft and trade Williams. I want a real center or some kind of 2 way player with a real position in this draft.Williams seems too much like Beasley light. He'll be a solid scorer in the league I'm sure, but I just don't see him being able to defend any position very well and this team needs to move toward a more defensive mentality asap. I don't know that Kanter and Jonas will be great defenders, but at least they are stay at home centers. I don't want any big men wandering out to the 3 point line. Kanter's a bruiser and Jonas' 90 percent free throw shooting suggest a hell of a good work ethic.

[Kevin Willis]

You think Burks will go Top 5 Dr?