Tank World Order

[PhilBlackson]

Ironic, isn't it?

Denver and Utah are two franchises with great young cores...but those teams never tanked.

I guess the Suns are a decent example, but ironically Booker was picked at 13. Ayton looks very promising. But even with getting Chris Paul they are only 8-7 and are probably a 2nd round team at best. Chris Paul doesn't have much time left as an elite player and Booker/Ayton isn't getting you a championship.

1. Utah is a tough team but going nowhere but Mitchell who's arguably the face of their franchise was a lottery pick

2. DEN got Murray #7 and Porter #14, Jokic was a complete anomaly. If you wanna bank on the fluke luck of arguably the best passing bigman of all time somehow by miracle slipping to the 2nd rd then I would wish good luck but even that wouldn't cover the odds.

3. Every bit of PHX's young core are lottery picks lol (Ayton, Bridges, Booker, Johnson), Luka/KP lottery, Tatum/Brown lottery picks, Simmons/Embiid, Bam/Herro, etc etc....if you're gonna point out the other great teams keep in mind they're FA destinations which you're only kidding yourself if you think we are

Sometimes I'm not sure if anti-tankers are just really trying to sell themselves on the idea lol

So are you telling me that Phoenix, Dallas, Boston, Philly or Miami have legitimate championship cores right now?

Also it's incredible that you failed to mention KP was traded to Dallas, Boston's lottery picks were largely acquired by cashing in on KG/Pierce, Simmons/Embiid have not made it past the 2nd round, and the Heat are a middle of the pack playoff team in the East.

Sometimes I'm not really sure if TWO can understand context or actually do proper research on what they are arguing.

Who do you do you think does have championship cores?! Oh that's right, the FA destinations I addressed and who would be next in line as the future of the league after them?! Oh that's right again every team I mentioned that all have at least 2 lottery picks in their cores lol but better luck next time.

As for KP, he was picked up by trading LOTTERY picks haha do you have a point at all?? It's rhetorical don't stress trying to answer.

[MixxSRC]

1. Utah is a tough team but going nowhere but Mitchell who's arguably the face of their franchise was a lottery pick

2. DEN got Murray #7 and Porter #14, Jokic was a complete anomaly. If you wanna bank on the fluke luck of arguably the best passing bigman of all time somehow by miracle slipping to the 2nd rd then I would wish good luck but even that wouldn't cover the odds.

3. Every bit of PHX's young core are lottery picks lol (Ayton, Bridges, Booker, Johnson), Luka/KP lottery, Tatum/Brown lottery picks, Simmons/Embiid, Bam/Herro, etc etc....if you're gonna point out the other great teams keep in mind they're FA destinations which you're only kidding yourself if you think we are

Sometimes I'm not sure if anti-tankers are just really trying to sell themselves on the idea lol

So are you telling me that Phoenix, Dallas, Boston, Philly or Miami have legitimate championship cores right now?

Also it's incredible that you failed to mention KP was traded to Dallas, Boston's lottery picks were largely acquired by cashing in on KG/Pierce, Simmons/Embiid have not made it past the 2nd round, and the Heat are a middle of the pack playoff team in the East.

Sometimes I'm not really sure if TWO can understand context or actually do proper research on what they are arguing.

Who do you do you think does have championship cores?! Oh that's right, the FA destinations I addressed and who would be next in line as the future of the league after them?! Oh that's right again every team I mentioned that all have at least 2 lottery picks in their cores lol but better luck next time.

As for KP, he was picked up by trading LOTTERY picks haha do you have a point at all?? It's rhetorical don't stress trying to answer.

What kills me when it comes to those teams. It's championship or bust. But when it comes to Raptors it's all about slowly building, being opportunistic and doing smart drafting and signing and Raptors will be back right there.

Like those other teams can't do it.

[Pooh_Jeter]

You are going to base that from the first 15-20 games of the season were the Cavs are 8-9?

Last year the Suns started 6-3 and finished 34-39.

Orlando started the 2018 season 8-4 and finished 25-57.

Kings were 7-8 to start off last years season and finished 31-39.

Maybe wait until we are closer to the end of the season to evaluate which teams are actually good.

We started 2-8 and the Heat are now 6-10.

Are you going to say that the Cavs young core is already as good as the Heat's young core because that would be complete BS.

Dallas is 8-9 and the Grizzlies are 7-6 without Morant. Are the Grizz young core better than the Mavs young core?

They are clearly a competitive team and on the upswing. They are going to finish in a play in spot especially considering they already dealt with some covid/injury issues and are playing an unbalanced lineup until they can trade a centre or two.

You keep bringing up that Orlando example when no one actually believed in that team. Once Stan Van Gundy left they went through 5 coaches in 6 seasons until Clifford and Weltman were able to stabilize things. The Kings are another train wreck of an organization.

What do the Heat, Mavs and Grizzlies have to do in a comparison of the Cavs VS the Raptors or just a general observation of what is going on in Cleveland? I specifically mentioned the Cavs because a lot of people especially around here like to denigrate them. Of course those 3 teams are in a better position than the Cavs.

[Danny1616]

1. Utah is a tough team but going nowhere but Mitchell who's arguably the face of their franchise was a lottery pick

2. DEN got Murray #7 and Porter #14, Jokic was a complete anomaly. If you wanna bank on the fluke luck of arguably the best passing bigman of all time somehow by miracle slipping to the 2nd rd then I would wish good luck but even that wouldn't cover the odds.

3. Every bit of PHX's young core are lottery picks lol (Ayton, Bridges, Booker, Johnson), Luka/KP lottery, Tatum/Brown lottery picks, Simmons/Embiid, Bam/Herro, etc etc....if you're gonna point out the other great teams keep in mind they're FA destinations which you're only kidding yourself if you think we are

Sometimes I'm not sure if anti-tankers are just really trying to sell themselves on the idea lol

So are you telling me that Phoenix, Dallas, Boston, Philly or Miami have legitimate championship cores right now?

Also it's incredible that you failed to mention KP was traded to Dallas, Boston's lottery picks were largely acquired by cashing in on KG/Pierce, Simmons/Embiid have not made it past the 2nd round, and the Heat are a middle of the pack playoff team in the East.

Sometimes I'm not really sure if TWO can understand context or actually do proper research on what they are arguing.

Who do you do you think does have championship cores?! Oh that's right, the FA destinations I addressed and who would be next in line as the future of the league after them?! Oh that's right again every team I mentioned that all have at least 2 lottery picks in their cores lol but better luck next time.

As for KP, he was picked up by trading LOTTERY picks haha do you have a point at all?? It's rhetorical don't stress trying to answer.

The only true FA destinations are Miami, LA and New York/Brooklyn.

Wait they traded lottery picks? They are 2021 and 2023 picks which will likely not be lottery picks as Dallas is a playoff team? Wtf?

We can also trade our future 1st round picks, lol.

We also got a lottery pick (Poeltl) while we were a 56 team in case you forgot. Denver and Utah were both able to acquire lottery picks through trades as well.

Even so, those teams with 2 lottery picks that you mentioned have not even done better than the Raptors with Lowry and Derozan!!!

Also strange how you use Miami as a team that tanked. Miami was a treadmill team that finished 7-10 when they got Bam and Herro. Those weren't top 10 picks. Herro went 13 and Bam went 14.

So according to your logic if the Raptors finish in 8th and get a top 15 pick you should be **** ecstatic.

[MixxSRC]

We got Poeltl pick because of Bargnani. Knicks were a playoff team and thought they were giving up late first rounder but in reality it turned into lottery pick. Good move by Masai but that draft wasn't deep.

But how are we getting that type of pick now? Nobody will just straight up give us lottery picks when they know it'll be lottery and we know it'll be lottery

[Danny1616]

We got Poeltl pick because of Bargnani. Knicks were a playoff team and thought they were giving up late first rounder but in reality it turned into lottery pick. Good move by Masai but that draft wasn't deep.

But how are we getting that type of pick now? Nobody will just straight up give us lottery picks when they know it'll be lottery and we know it'll be lottery

Right, and Boston traded Garnett and Pierce for a bunch of picks in 2014

Nets were thinking they had a contending team for at least the next couple years with D-Will, Joe Johnson, PP and KG and that they would also be late 1st rounders but they collapsed and became a lottery team.

Are you catching on now?

Boston had 48 wins the year before they got Tatum and 40 wins the year before they got Brown.

[MixxSRC]

We got Poeltl pick because of Bargnani. Knicks were a playoff team and thought they were giving up late first rounder but in reality it turned into lottery pick. Good move by Masai but that draft wasn't deep.

But how are we getting that type of pick now? Nobody will just straight up give us lottery picks when they know it'll be lottery and we know it'll be lottery

Right, and Boston traded Garnett and Pierce for a bunch of picks.

Nets were thinking they would also be late 1st rounders but they collapsed and became a lottery team.

Are you catching on now?

Are we doing that anytime soon? No. So I don't know why you being snarky.

Talking a lot of **** for a guy who makes no points.

Your only arguments is waaah tanking making my feelings hurt. You are a king of half-measures bud.

[Danny1616]

We got Poeltl pick because of Bargnani. Knicks were a playoff team and thought they were giving up late first rounder but in reality it turned into lottery pick. Good move by Masai but that draft wasn't deep.

But how are we getting that type of pick now? Nobody will just straight up give us lottery picks when they know it'll be lottery and we know it'll be lottery

Right, and Boston traded Garnett and Pierce for a bunch of picks.

Nets were thinking they would also be late 1st rounders but they collapsed and became a lottery team.

Are you catching on now?

Are we doing that anytime soon? No. So I don't know why you being snarky.

Talking a lot of **** for a guy who makes no points.

Your only arguments is waaah tanking making my feelings hurt. You are a king of half-measures bud.

Maybe you should wait until the trade deadline and off-season before you evaluate what we did or should do.

We came off a season with multiple injuries on pace for 60 wins. Masai was gunning for Giannis and it backfired.

Maybe have some patience and relax. Let's say what management is able to do over deadline and off-season.

[Pooh_Jeter]

Wait, so let me get this straight...

On one hand, you can't expect anything of note from dealing Lowry, Norm and Boucher. If anything you may have to take back some bad long term money.

On the other hand suddenly another Kawhi deal will fall into the Raptors laps or if that doesn't, there will at least be a KG/Pierce to Brooklyn deal.

You're going to do the latter even though the Siakam, FVV and OG core need to be kept intact to create this "winning culture" and be attractive as a destination for whoever ends up here.

Sounds like a plan!

[720]

This is like a bad game of telephone, except what was said is actually written out.

No one is saying the Cavs core is championship ready.

The point is that in year 3 of a rebuild they are just as good as the Raptors (if not better) who have a core that is "battle tested" and has some quality supporting pieces in Lowry, Norm and even Boucher.

To further this point, this has been far from ideal circumstances for the Cavs, but they have followed all the steps of a typical rebuild and are in a position where they have upside and flexibility.

For all this talk of patience, it's pretty funny that a team with a core of players all under 22 is suddenly a finished product and will do nothing of note. Give them a taste of the playoffs and see where they stand. Guess what, if it isn't a championship core they can make changes. You don't think Sexton, Garland, Okoro and Allen have value around the league?

You are going to base that from the first 15-20 games of the season were the Cavs are 8-9?

Last year the Suns started 6-3 and finished 34-39.

Orlando started the 2018 season 8-4 and finished 25-57.

Kings were 7-8 to start off last years season and finished 31-39.

Maybe wait until we are closer to the end of the season to evaluate which teams are actually good.

We started 2-8 and the Heat are now 6-10.

Are you going to say that the Cavs young core is already as good as the Heat's young core because that would be complete BS.

Dallas is 8-9 and the Grizzlies are 7-6 without Morant. Are the Grizz young core better than the Mavs young core?

Can't compare the heat to us. Heat are missing half their team. We're just mediocre trash.

[Danny1616]

Wait, so let me get this straight...

On one hand, you can't expect anything of note from dealing Lowry, Norm and Boucher. If anything you may have to take back some bad long term money.

On the other hand suddenly another Kawhi deal will fall into the Raptors laps or if that doesn't, there will at least be a KG/Pierce to Brooklyn deal.

You're going to do the latter even though the Siakam, FVV and OG core need to be kept intact to create this "winning culture" and be attractive as a destination for whoever ends up here.

Sounds like a plan!

Classic Pooh mischaracterizing everything I said and twisting it for your insane weird crackpot narrative.

Coming from the guy who has been gloating about the Cavaliers incredible young core

[MixxSRC]

"Relax be patient"...Bruh that's whole point of tanking. Holy **** we telling you guys don't worry about losing a lot of games this season it'll pay off in long run. But WE lack patience.

It's all about giving young guys more minutes. Try and give them a chance to expand their offensive games. Let OG try **** and if we lose, so what? Let Davis play.

[Danny1616]

"Relax be patient"...Bruh that's whole point of tanking. Holy **** we telling you guys don't worry about losing a lot of games this season it'll pay off in long run. But WE lack patience.

It's all about giving young guys more minutes. Try and give them a chance to expand their offensive games. Let OG try **** and if we lose, so what? Let Davis play.

You sound like you never played sports in your life.

Yeah Nurse, management and the players are just willingly going to hope to lose games, lol. The core is not bad enough to be a bottom feeder in the league right now, it's just not going to happen unless our core pieces suffer major injuries. It's also funny because in 2018 we started off the season 5-4. Casey decided to expand his bench and rollwith the young guys and we ended up finishing with 59 wins.

Yeah be patient. It's a long season. We don't know what will happen with injuries, the trade deadline, player growth etc.

Masai has a lot to work worth in the off-season. We have some very good young assets, all our draft picks going forward (OG and Boucher are really raising their trade value this season) and major cap flexibility. Team is in an excellent position. With Giannis out of the mix, Masai won't hamstring himself and low ball some players in free-agency like he did with Ibaka.

[MixxSRC]

"Relax be patient"...Bruh that's whole point of tanking. Holy **** we telling you guys don't worry about losing a lot of games this season it'll pay off in long run. But WE lack patience.

It's all about giving young guys more minutes. Try and give them a chance to expand their offensive games. Let OG try **** and if we lose, so what? Let Davis play.

You sound like you never played sports in your life.

Yeah Nurse, management and the players are just willingly going to hope to lose games, lol. The core is not bad enough to be a bottom feeder in the league right now, it's just not going to happen unless our core pieces suffer major injuries. It's also funny because in 2018 we started off the season 5-4. Casey decided to expand his bench and role with the young guys and we ended up finishing with 59 wins.

Yeah be patient. It's a long season. We don't know what will happen with injuries, the trade deadline, player growth etc.

Masai has a lot to work worth in the off-season. We have some very good young assets, all our draft picks going forward and major cap flexibility. Team is in an excellent position. With Giannis out of the mix, Masai won't hamstring himself and low ball some players in free-agency like he did with Ibaka.

Of course Nurse and players are not going to lose games. Nobody is expecting that. But management did not make any moves for the future or to position ourselves better for it. They could've taken advantage of poor start and move into a new era. Let Lowry pass the torch. Move a couple a couple of guys for picks. Let young guys play.

Issue is not about what Masai has to work with. Yeah he can make moves.

But I watched NBA for a long time to know that realistically he can maybe get a solid signing there and there. Maybe a solid draft pick again. But it doesnt fundamentally changes the trajectory and ceiling of this team. And while that is happening clock is ticking. Siakam is entering his prime. FVV is entering his prime. OG is still young but he'll be 3 and D guy most likely.

Sounds like you played too much sports. You gotta stop looking at it from players point of view who wants to win but from management point of view who need to think 3 years from now.

[ItsDanger]

In order to tank, you need multiple trades and a key injury. Do not underestimate how bad some of these other teams are. Given our roster, not sure if its even viable (barring injury).

[Danny1616]

"Relax be patient"...Bruh that's whole point of tanking. Holy **** we telling you guys don't worry about losing a lot of games this season it'll pay off in long run. But WE lack patience.

It's all about giving young guys more minutes. Try and give them a chance to expand their offensive games. Let OG try **** and if we lose, so what? Let Davis play.

You sound like you never played sports in your life.

Yeah Nurse, management and the players are just willingly going to hope to lose games, lol. The core is not bad enough to be a bottom feeder in the league right now, it's just not going to happen unless our core pieces suffer major injuries. It's also funny because in 2018 we started off the season 5-4. Casey decided to expand his bench and role with the young guys and we ended up finishing with 59 wins.

Yeah be patient. It's a long season. We don't know what will happen with injuries, the trade deadline, player growth etc.

Masai has a lot to work worth in the off-season. We have some very good young assets, all our draft picks going forward and major cap flexibility. Team is in an excellent position. With Giannis out of the mix, Masai won't hamstring himself and low ball some players in free-agency like he did with Ibaka.

Of course Nurse and players are not going to lose games. Nobody is expecting that. But management did not make any moves for the future or to position ourselves. They could've taken advantage of poor start and move into a new era. Let Lowry pass the torch. Move a couple a couple of guys for picks. Let young guys play.

Issue is not about what Masai has to work with. Yeah he can make moves.

But I watched NBA for a long time to know that realistically he can maybe get a solid signing there and there. Maybe a solid draft pick again. But it doesnt fundamentally changes the trajectory and ceiling of this team. And while that is happening clock is ticking. Siakam is entering his prime. FVV is entering his prime. OG is still young but he'll be 3 and D guy most likely.

Dude, I heard the same exact arguments in 2016 and 2017.

We were a 56 win team that just made the conference finals and started to regress a little. Lowry was 31 and Derozan was clearly not a superstar. Guys like Patterson were becoming worse. Cory Joseph was an average back up. Carroll was injury prone and getting older. Ross was inconsistent.

Two years later and we had the best bench in the league through late 1st and 2nd round draft picks (Norm, Siakam, Delon and OG) and undrafted players like Fred. Our player development program through the Raptors 905 is the best in the league. Masai also brilliantly flipped Ross and a pick for Ibaka (which many didn't like at the time).

We went from an aging team with a capped ceiling and almost no young assets in 2016 to a team with one of the best young cores in 2018, just a two year span. Ironically, the one lottery pick we had was our worst selection.

My god, the TWO crew has the shortest memory spans I've ever seen. To say our ceiling right now is capped is maybe the most stupid thing I've read here in a long time. We now have another gem in Boucher who is playing like an MIP type player this season.

[MixxSRC]

In order to tank, you need multiple trades and a key injury. Do not underestimate how bad some of these other teams are. Given our roster, not sure if its even viable (barring injury).

And with players missing from other teams it'll be hard to really lose. Yes at this point where we are we can't gut this team. It's nothing I'm really happy about. But all they can do is move Lowry. Move Norm into starting line up and free up some minutes for other guards. Let Siakam heal properly. After that you just have to live with where they land.

[Tacoma]

4 key factors that determine whether tanking should be considered:

1. Injuries to core players
2. Aging core
3. Maxed out with no cap flexibility
4. Stuck in the #7-11 seeds for multiple seasons

If all or most of these apply, then I'd be in favor of tanking.

1. What does Injuries matter if your core players are all support players that you build around true star(s) that you don't have? Siakam, it's becoming clear, isn't one. He's not even the first option right now and likely don't make the all star team this year.

2. Our below 25's are OG, Flynn and Davis. That's it. The rest are at/near near peak anchoring a treadmilling team. So what does age matter? Lowry is an exception. If he isn't traded this year, will most likely leave for a contending team next year. We've let Ibaka, Gasol, Green and Kawhi leave for nothing. Let's get something for Lowry.

3. Cap is not relevant to a tanking decision when 28 yr old Oladipo is the best remaining FA and doesn't take you off the treadmill.

4. A team treadmills when a it's not good enough to contend and not bad enough to get a high draft pick to properly rebuild, so you're spinning your wheels in no man's land. Stuck in #7-11 fits that definition even for 1 year b/c you're likely staying there for multiple seasons. That's why it's called a treadmill, you're not really moving.

There's one reason to tank, IMO. If you're treadmilling and your roster is lacking star talent. That's where we are today.

[Danny1616]

4 key factors that determine whether tanking should be considered:

1. Injuries to core players
2. Aging core
3. Maxed out with no cap flexibility
4. Stuck in the #7-11 seeds for multiple seasons

If all or most of these apply, then I'd be in favor of tanking.

1. What does Injuries matter if your core players are all support players that you build around true star(s) that you don't have? Siakam, it's becoming clear, isn't one. He's not even our first option right now and likely don't make the all star team this year.

2. Our below 25's are OG, Flynn and Davis. That's it. The rest are at/near near peak anchoring a treadmilling team. So what does age matter? Lowry is an exception. If he isn't traded this year, will most likely leave for a contending team next year. We've let Ibaka, Gasol, Green and Kawhi leave for nothing. Let's get something for Lowry.

3. Cap is not relevant to a tanking decision when 28 yr old Oladipo is the best remaining FA and doesn't take you off the treadmill.

4. A team treadmills when a it's not good enough to contend and not bad enough to get a high draft pick to properly rebuild, so you're spinning your wheels in no man's land. Stuck in #7-11 fits that definition even for 1 year b/c you're likely staying there for multiple seasons. That's why it's called a treadmill, you're not really moving.

There's one reason to tank, IMO. If you're treadmilling and your roster is lacking star talent. That's where we are today.

Didn't Miami finish from 7-11 and two consecutive years drafted Herro (at 13) and Bam (at 14)?

Nuggets were also a 7-11 team when they drafted Jokic, Murray and MPJ.

So I don't really get it. You see where the cards fall. Yeah if we are easily out of the playoffs by the deadline with no shot then yeah I'd be for giving the season away. You don't do it right now.

[ATLTimekeeper]

7-11 resulted in the Warriors dynasty. It's another boogeyman that isn't of concern for the Raptors. At this point they have all their picks and some cap flexibility, and it doesn't seem likely that Ujiri and Webster will cave now in order to push this team a little further.