2023 Draft Discussion Part III

[Rapsfan07]

Sorry why do we have neither? We can draft one at 13. We can trade for one with Barnes and 13. Barnes and a lottery pick/filler was good enough for a Durant package last summer (we balked at trading a ROY for a mid-30s star).

George, Mitchell and Durant had years left on their contracts, Kawai was one and done. Is the return on D Mitchell that different? Lauri, Sexton, Agbaji and three 1sts plus two swaps. The swaps won't likely impact, unless you think the Jazz will be better than the Cavs in the next half decade. Even if they are, it will likely be a Lakers Pels style swap this year.

We gave up DeMar, Poeltl, and a first. That's DeMar + 2 1sts + 2x 2nds converting Poeltl to picks. How is that much different when considering the amount of contract retention we had?

It wouldn't have been just Barnes and #13 though; I have to imagine that is why the FO balked and rightfully so. The contracts don't match so it would have required adding more of our depth in the form of contracts just to facilitate the trade. So now that we've moved Barnes + #13 plus at least one or two of FVV, Siakam, Trent or OG, how do we build a winner around our newly acquired star?

Correct - George , Mitchell and Durant had term left on his deal. Kawhi had one year and was just coming off of a year and change of not playing with a nagging injury that was mishandled by the Spurs. This is the reason he was on the market in the first place and why we won the eventual bid for him. No one wanted to pay what we were willing to and gamble that he would re-sign with them since it was pretty widely known Kawhi wanted to go back home to LA, which he eventually did, despite things literally going as well as you could possibly dream of here in Toronto. Had he had some term left on his deal, not being plagued by a nagging injury and/or not intended on going home, his price would likely have been through the roof.

Let's look at Mitchell, who is just a tier below Kawhi/Curry/Embiid etc.

The Nets got All-Star in Markannen, a starter in Sexton, #14, THREE unprotected firsts and two swaps. That is a WHOLE lot more than DeRozan, ONE FRP and Poeltl, even if you account for the 1st and 2nd we spent to re-acquire him.

Like I'm not sure what you are saying...
Lauri < DeMar
Sexton ... A solid 6th man... No comparison
Agbagi < Keldon Johnson
3 1sts ~= 2 1sts + 4 years of Poeltl service
Swaps < 2 seconds

For:
3 yrs of D Mitch (possibly stays? Bird rights)
vs 1 yr of Kawai + Green (certain to leave)

These are similiar packages

Then it seems the core of our disagreement is how to assign value.

As you said, Sexton has no comp in the Kawhi trade. Two swaps are first round pick swaps so I'm not sure how you arrive at the conclusion that 2 firsts are better than 2 seconds. As for the Poeltl equation, I supposed the argument could be made that a FRP is worth 4 years of Poeltl's service. That's fair.

So by my reckoning, Jazz made out with a 6th man and two firsts more than we paid. That significant in books but it's fine if you don't see it that way.

[dozo]

I haven't watched much video on this upcoming draft class. Who has the highest ceiling, that is projected around our pick? That's who we need to take , we need a home run but if we strikeout, oh well.

I asked a similar question regarding best shooter/potential a few pages back.

Some users say Jordan Hawkins is probably the best shooter including movement shooting. His shot has beautiful form too.

Some users said GG Jackson had the highest potential. I watched the coach spin and hoop intellect videos on youtube, and I can see the potential. When the shots go in, he looks great. But his demeanor when he doesn't have the ball or when playing defense in general is not the best to say the least. He's definitely one of those players who has never seen a shot he didn't like. (His defense is probably going to be a big reason why we won't draft him. Just a hunch.)

I get we want offense, creators, shooters, etc. Would the fans be willing to endure all the tunnel vision and bricks in GG's first few seasons?

"GG is still a kid", that's all I need to hear. How many chances will the Raptors have to add a 6'9 shot creator with NBA athleticism?

I agree. @ 13 the highest ceilings are GG Jackson and Bilal Coulibaly. Both are natural scorers (potential 3 levels) with NBA starter size. Both are long-term projects.

GG looks like Tatum/Butler on offense!
Coulibay might develop into the best finisher around the basket.

[niQ]

Don't get me wrong, like I said in my post, I can see the potential (with GG). It's just the other stuff that needs improvement.

I'm kind of getting Kuminga vibes. Both had good size for wings, pretty bad percentages, high offensive upside, questionable defensive effort/discipline.

[OakleyDokely]

GG Jackson is 6'9 but he apparently he only has a 6'10 wingspan. That's not too enticing, especially when you combine that with his poor efficiency.

[HumbleRen]

Don't get me wrong, like I said in my post, I can see the potential (with GG). It's just the other stuff that needs improvement.

I'm kind of getting Kuminga vibes. Both had good size for wings, pretty bad percentages, high offensive upside, questionable defensive effort/discipline.

Also to add that GG is a significantly worse prospect than Kuminga as well.

[nowayguy]

Don't get me wrong, like I said in my post, I can see the potential (with GG). It's just the other stuff that needs improvement.

I'm kind of getting Kuminga vibes. Both had good size for wings, pretty bad percentages, high offensive upside, questionable defensive effort/discipline.

Also to add that GG is a significantly worse prospect than Kuminga as well.

GG's shot creation is ahead of Kuminga's, so that's something. He's going to be able to come into the NBA and get open looks. Whether or not he makes his shots is another question entirely.

[billy_hoyle]

It wouldn't have been just Barnes and #13 though; I have to imagine that is why the FO balked and rightfully so. The contracts don't match so it would have required adding more of our depth in the form of contracts just to facilitate the trade. So now that we've moved Barnes + #13 plus at least one or two of FVV, Siakam, Trent or OG, how do we build a winner around our newly acquired star?

Correct - George , Mitchell and Durant had term left on his deal. Kawhi had one year and was just coming off of a year and change of not playing with a nagging injury that was mishandled by the Spurs. This is the reason he was on the market in the first place and why we won the eventual bid for him. No one wanted to pay what we were willing to and gamble that he would re-sign with them since it was pretty widely known Kawhi wanted to go back home to LA, which he eventually did, despite things literally going as well as you could possibly dream of here in Toronto. Had he had some term left on his deal, not being plagued by a nagging injury and/or not intended on going home, his price would likely have been through the roof.

Let's look at Mitchell, who is just a tier below Kawhi/Curry/Embiid etc.

The Nets got All-Star in Markannen, a starter in Sexton, #14, THREE unprotected firsts and two swaps. That is a WHOLE lot more than DeRozan, ONE FRP and Poeltl, even if you account for the 1st and 2nd we spent to re-acquire him.

Like I'm not sure what you are saying...
Lauri < DeMar
Sexton ... A solid 6th man... No comparison
Agbagi < Keldon Johnson
3 1sts ~= 2 1sts + 4 years of Poeltl service
Swaps < 2 seconds

For:
3 yrs of D Mitch (possibly stays? Bird rights)
vs 1 yr of Kawai + Green (certain to leave)

These are similiar packages

Then it seems the core of our disagreement is how to assign value.

As you said, Sexton has no comp in the Kawhi trade. Two swaps are first round pick swaps so I'm not sure how you arrive at the conclusion that 2 firsts are better than 2 seconds. As for the Poeltl equation, I supposed the argument could be made that a FRP is worth 4 years of Poeltl's service. That's fair.

So by my reckoning, Jazz made out with a 6th man and two firsts more than we paid. That significant in books but it's fine if you don't see it that way.

I'm not trying to be an arse here. How is it two 1sts? You are counting two 1st round pick swaps as 1sts?

Like I said, I'd rather have two seconds (actual tangible assets) rather than the chance the Jazz are better than the Cavs in two of the next 5 drafts, and that the pick difference is even substantial if that were to happen. For example, didn't the thunder have pick swap this year with Clippers? That turns into dust right.

Sexton is definitely a difference, but like the Spurs package is better in other areas. For 1 year vs I don't know how long Mitchell will be in Cleveland, at least three.

Fair enough if we disagree, but if the difference is Colin Sexton, to me that's in the ball park when you consider the number of assets involved.

[Tofubeque]

GG is hypebeast Obi Toppin.

There's lacking defensive fundamentals, and then there's appearing not to give a sh** about the game of basketball unless the ball is in your hands. If a player has a competitive motor it'll show up by age 18.

[REJECTEDBYCLARK]

GG is hypebeast Obi Toppin.

There's lacking defensive fundamentals, and then there's appearing not to give a sh** about the game of basketball unless the ball is in your hands. If a player has a competitive motor it'll show up by age 18.

[720]

Unless GG has a crazy good combine I don’t think he goes in the top 14. Probably a mid to low 1st.

[Spates]

I've got SIdy over Bufkin now.

This Brandin podziemski talk is scary. He might be another Jimmer Fredette. Ball dominant guards that can't get downhill aren't getting you anywhere. The boy can shoot though.

[Dalek]

Unless GG has a crazy good combine I don’t this he goes in the top 14. Probably a mid to low 1st.

ESPN downgraded him to 27 on their big board. I know he is young, but maybe the sense he is immature and his bball IQ is poor.

The whole IG live video he did really killed him. I don't think people want a potential coach killer, and if you draft GG lottery there will be pressure to play him.

Reminds me of Kuminga who people worried about and thought he was a bit lazy. He ended up in the best place possible where you have multiple vets who can lead him. Toronto should in theory have that, but it does seem like the culture is a bit lost here.

I think whoever we draft has to be a good team guy, smart and willing to follow a game plan. We just don't have a team willing to nurture guys along.

[REJECTEDBYCLARK]

I've got SIdy over Bufkin now.

This Brandin podziemski talk is scary. He might be another Jimmer Fredette. Ball dominant guards that can't get downhill aren't getting you anywhere. The boy can shoot though.

The same can be argued regarding Sidy being scary due to the countless "not even close" shots and airball shots he hoists.

[Spates]

Sidy is def going before 13. He's high level. The kid has insane intuition and he can use his body well.
I've got him in a category with Wagner and Sochan as guys who are winners.
I really hope he's there at 13.

[Kevin Willis]

Don't get me wrong, like I said in my post, I can see the potential (with GG). It's just the other stuff that needs improvement.

I'm kind of getting Kuminga vibes. Both had good size for wings, pretty bad percentages, high offensive upside, questionable defensive effort/discipline.

You have to watch an entire game with GG. He is raw, not very smooth so I can't see Tatum. Most of the offense went through him and he still was not exceptional. Leonard Miller is only one year younger and he definitely looked better than GG this year. Plus Miller showed more maturity and played in a better league. GG is a poor man's Bam that can shoot the 3 a little bit. Comparing him to Tatum is disrespect, Tatum was a much better player at the same age. Tatum is a one on one beast. GG will never be that good. Bam is still an all-star. Kuminga I can also see but Kuminga is shorter. GG I hope will be better.

[Spates]

I've got SIdy over Bufkin now.

This Brandin podziemski talk is scary. He might be another Jimmer Fredette. Ball dominant guards that can't get downhill aren't getting you anywhere. The boy can shoot though.

The same can be argued regarding Sidy being scary due to the countless "not even close" shots and airball shots he hoists.

Those aren't equivalents. Shots can be developed. If you can't play north-south in college. It'll look terribly rough in the NBA. Dude has no physicality, doesn't cover ground quickly. Buyer beware.

I've seen some rather pure makes from Sidy and some impressive foot work in preparation for his shot.

[Spates]

Don't get me wrong, like I said in my post, I can see the potential (with GG). It's just the other stuff that needs improvement.

I'm kind of getting Kuminga vibes. Both had good size for wings, pretty bad percentages, high offensive upside, questionable defensive effort/discipline.

You have to watch an entire game with GG. He is raw, not very smooth so I can't see Tatum. Most of the offense went through him and he still was not exceptional. Leonard Miller is only one year younger and he definitely looked better than GG this year. Plus Miller showed more maturity and played in a better league. GG is a poor man's Bam that can shoot the 3 a little bit. Comparing him to Tatum is disrespect, Tatum was a much better player at the same age. Tatum is a one on one beast. GG will never be that good. Bam is still an all-star. Kuminga I can also see but Kuminga is shorter. GG I hope will be better.

GG's highlights look wicked. But his lowlights say a lot about him and his deficiencies. Tools but not the mind.

[REJECTEDBYCLARK]

I've got SIdy over Bufkin now.

This Brandin podziemski talk is scary. He might be another Jimmer Fredette. Ball dominant guards that can't get downhill aren't getting you anywhere. The boy can shoot though.

The same can be argued regarding Sidy being scary due to the countless "not even close" shots and airball shots he hoists.

Those aren't equivalents. Shots can be developed. If you can't play north-south in college. It'll look terribly rough in the NBA. Dude has no physicality, doesn't cover ground quickly. Buyer beware.

I've seen some rather pure makes from Sidy and some impressive foot work in preparation for his shot.

Anyone can have a highlight reel full of pure makes if they hoist it up enough but usually not a highlight reel full of incredibly bad misses and airballs. His shooting is a major concern and backed up by his free throw percentages. You want to add another guy who can't shoot to this team and wait ages for him to potentially learn how to (with that probability being diminished by the numbers we're currently seeing) then have fun. I'm praying Masai learned his lesson.

[Yallbecrazy]

GG is hypebeast Obi Toppin.

There's lacking defensive fundamentals, and then there's appearing not to give a sh** about the game of basketball unless the ball is in your hands. If a player has a competitive motor it'll show up by age 18.

Anyone else throw up a bit in their mouth when someone brings up certain guys for us to draft?

[Rapsfan07]

I've got SIdy over Bufkin now.

This Brandin podziemski talk is scary. He might be another Jimmer Fredette. Ball dominant guards that can't get downhill aren't getting you anywhere. The boy can shoot though.

I think Podz tops out as a nice bench guard that can add some depth to a good team. I like him for that. But anyone taking him looking for a superstar diamond in the rough is going to be disappointment, IMO.

But that's still good value though, especially in the second round where he's currently mocked. It wouldn't surprise me if he get taken in the late first round though.