Draft Thread Part 2

[Ell Curry]

Masai has historically always drafted players higher in advanced stats. Poeltl, Siakam, OG, Hernandez, Malachi, Harris. I expect that if we pick in the 7-9 range, we are probably looking at Jalen Johnson, Corey Kispert, Scottie Barnes, Sengun or maybe Wagner. I just don’t see the same impact metrics from players like Giddey or Keon Johnson.

As much as Kispert would help open up the offense and we could sort of hide him by giving OG the job on the main wing (and even Siakam on the 2nd wing when we play a team like the Clippers or Celtics) he just doesn't have the foot speed that Masai seems to like.

Same for Sengun, but he's on a whole different level of production and 3 years younger, so Birch coming back to start next year and him taking over in year 2 seems plausible enough to me.

Wagner fits what we look for (advanced stats, good feet, young enough that the 3 ball might come) but it's tough to see us coming out of this pick without trying to get either a starting 5 or a guy who can really create from the wing spot, which Moody is ahead of him on even with his seeming lack of upside as an iso guy.

Jalen Green fits us so well that I wonder if we can turn a Lowry sign and trade into an asset to move up, maybe with Boucher, if he falls to #4 and someone like the Warriors have the pick.

If you wanna get really crazy (and I apologize if I posted it here, but I think it was in the Trade forum), something like Lowry sign and trade for Wiseman and Poole (they give Lowry an extra year so I think they can get up to something like 48/3), preceded by Boucher, our 2022 1st (Say top 5 protected) and the #7 for the #4 and Looney would leave Golden State with a proper title contender next year of Lowry-Curry-Klay-Wiggins-Boucher-Green, the #7 they could use on a win now veteran type like Davion Mitchell or maybe Sengun, Kispert or Garuba, and a ringchasing center for the MLE (One of Theis, Noel, Drummond, Gasol, Ibaka) would be their top 9, along with an extra first from a team probably in the lottery to use next year to defray costs by adding another cheap rotation guy, and we'd look like this:

Birch-Wiseman
Siakam
OG
Trent-Green
VanVleet-Flynn

with all 5 long-term starters established, Trent and Flynn as a strong, young backcourt backup group and hopefully the #45 and #46 picks bring back someone we can develop into a 15 minute backup forward rotation guy at the 3 or 4.

TLDR: Green fits us so well as an iso scorer at the 2 that I could see us trying to turn the Lowry sign and trade assets and Boucher into moving up to get him, though he also fits Detroit like a glove so my guess is they take him before us to roll with Hayes-Green-Grant-Bey-Stewart moving forward.

[mademan]

While there's a lot of guys i like in this draft, i think Scottie Barnes is absolutely the pick if he falls to the Raps. He has legit DPOY type potential while being an upgraded Draymond Green on offense (better handles, better finishing, better creation). His best position is PF, but, imo, you always take the BPA.

I see him like Siakam on defense guarding 2-4 on the NBA level.

Ya, but he also just has a bigger frame, making him able to guard more 2-5, imo, as long as that 5 isnt Jokic or Embiid. If he ever figures out his jump-shot, he's a star impact player, imo. Outside of the top 5, i do really think he's the best pick.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Biggest thing I see with giddey is his defence who is he going to be able to stay infront of. To me he is big enough to defend 4s but is he strong enough. Another huge concern is his shot. His release is never consistent it's all over the place and he also seems to have a high center of gravity. His passing is elite but his handles are Good for a player 6"8 but def not elite from what I've seen

I think generally speaking Australian players end up grading well as defenders in the NBA. He's gone through the Institute, he'll likely be a mainstay on their NT, it's the lowest area of concern for me. His frame is huge, and looks like he'll end up weighing close to 220 in the NBA and be able to guard multiple positions. The biggest plus right now is that he mixes it up in an extremely physical (dirty) league. He boards, he challenges shots in the paint, he's pretty smart... there's a lot to work with.

His jump shot and scoring ability is the biggest negative. He should be considered alongside Barnes and Wagner, and I view them both in that 10-15 area as players that are most likely solid role players, but I rate Giddey a little higher because he's younger and playing a significant role and major minutes in a much tougher environment.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Giddey pick smells of all smoke

You think the Raptors would waste weeks of scouting opportunities in Europe by sending their top guys to Australia just to throw someone off their scent that they might reach on a guy widely mocked in the late lottery to mid first round? They don't even know where they're picking yet.

[Syd-TK3]

If we don't move up I wouldn't be against trading back to the 10-16 range Picking Ziaire and getting a future 1st

[CoinTossRoss31]

If we don't move up I wouldn't be against trading back to the 10-16 range Picking Ziaire and getting a future 1st

Not who I would pick but I agree that if the guy we like isn't there, I'd be more than open to trading down into later teens if it meant getting another first aswell

[Psubs]

If we don't move up I wouldn't be against trading back to the 10-16 range Picking Ziaire and getting a future 1st

Not who I would pick but I agree that if the guy we like isn't there, I'd be more than open to trading down into later teens if it meant getting another first aswell

Agreed, just because he's young and lanky doesn't mean he's good. I think Ayo Dosunmu would be what Ziare aspires to become.

If they trade down, it's not for a 1 and done, it'll be for a player that has played at least 2 years of college or pro that has proven themselves or at minimum shown an upward trajectory of development.

https://raptorsrapture.com/2021/05/09/toronto-raptors-draft-scouting-australian-point-guard-josh-giddey/

Giddey with a triple-double for the fans, for a clutch win in OT!!!

With NBA scouts in attendance, including Toronto Raptors Director of Global Scouting Patrick Engelbrecht, Giddey recorded 11 points, 10 rebounds, and 12 assists, giving him a third triple-double in his last four games. Giddey is showing off all of the traits that could entice the Raptors to pull the trigger and select him.

[Jerry Lucas]

Considering Masai's affinity for selecting international players I think realistic best case for #7 at this point is Franz Wagner. Not just saying this as a Michigan fan, he could end up being the best international player selected in this draft. I would definitely take him over Giddey. Franz's shot creation numbers are insane, he's only behind Suggs in that regard among projected NCAA lotto picks.

[Indeed]

Who is the last player Masai drafted in the first round that wasn't a good defender or at least projected to be a good one?

Bruno - potential but low IQ.
Delon - defensive rep
Poeltl - good defender
OG - elite defender
Flynn - MWC defensive player of the year

I predict our pick will be a high IQ, high character player, who projects to be good defensively.

Guys who fit that mold that I've seen so far:

Cade Cunningham
Evan Mobley
Jalen Suggs
Moses Moody
Keon Johnson
Davion Mitchell
Zaire Williams

Not sure on yet for all three criteria:

Jonathan Kuminga
Scottie Barnes
James Bouknight
Franz Wagner

Barnes is elite on defense as well (Draymond Green comparison for a reason)

Bouknight is more like Barbosa, who has the tools, but seems to be lost on rotation.

Wagner does not seem to have the quickness against guards, saw a few blowby when he is not hide on the weakside against guards. I don't think he can come off screen, so when he cannot come out of screen and ask for a switch to a guard, he may got blowby on an isolation situation. He will work in some system, but I doubt it works on ours.

[Psubs]

Considering Masai's affinity for selecting international players I think realistic best case for #7 at this point is Franz Wagner. Not just saying this as a Michigan fan, he could end up being the best international player selected in this draft. I would definitely take him over Giddey. Franz's shot creation numbers are insane, he's only behind Suggs in that regard among projected NCAA lotto picks.

Best case would be Kuminga from the DR Congo.

How does this happen?

1. Houston - Cade
2. Detroit - Mobley
3. Minnesota - Suggs
4. OKC - Jalen Green
5. Cleveland - Scottie Barnes
6. Orlando - Keon Johnson
7. Toronto - Jonathan Kuminga!!!
8. Orlando - Jalen Johnson
9. Sacramento - Josh Giddey
10. New Orleans - Franz Wagner
11. Indiana - Davion Mitchell
12. Washington - Moses Moody
13. San Antonio - Kai Jones
14. Memphis - Corey Kispert

[gojoorange]

Masai has historically always drafted players higher in advanced stats. Poeltl, Siakam, OG, Hernandez, Malachi, Harris. I expect that if we pick in the 7-9 range, we are probably looking at Jalen Johnson, Corey Kispert, Scottie Barnes, Sengun or maybe Wagner. I just don’t see the same impact metrics from players like Giddey or Keon Johnson.

As much as Kispert would help open up the offense and we could sort of hide him by giving OG the job on the main wing (and even Siakam on the 2nd wing when we play a team like the Clippers or Celtics) he just doesn't have the foot speed that Masai seems to like.

Same for Sengun, but he's on a whole different level of production and 3 years younger, so Birch coming back to start next year and him taking over in year 2 seems plausible enough to me.

Wagner fits what we look for (advanced stats, good feet, young enough that the 3 ball might come) but it's tough to see us coming out of this pick without trying to get either a starting 5 or a guy who can really create from the wing spot, which Moody is ahead of him on even with his seeming lack of upside as an iso guy.

Jalen Green fits us so well that I wonder if we can turn a Lowry sign and trade into an asset to move up, maybe with Boucher, if he falls to #4 and someone like the Warriors have the pick.

If you wanna get really crazy (and I apologize if I posted it here, but I think it was in the Trade forum), something like Lowry sign and trade for Wiseman and Poole (they give Lowry an extra year so I think they can get up to something like 48/3), preceded by Boucher, our 2022 1st (Say top 5 protected) and the #7 for the #4 and Looney would leave Golden State with a proper title contender next year of Lowry-Curry-Klay-Wiggins-Boucher-Green, the #7 they could use on a win now veteran type like Davion Mitchell or maybe Sengun, Kispert or Garuba, and a ringchasing center for the MLE (One of Theis, Noel, Drummond, Gasol, Ibaka) would be their top 9, along with an extra first from a team probably in the lottery to use next year to defray costs by adding another cheap rotation guy, and we'd look like this:

Birch-Wiseman
Siakam
OG
Trent-Green
VanVleet-Flynn

with all 5 long-term starters established, Trent and Flynn as a strong, young backcourt backup group and hopefully the #45 and #46 picks bring back someone we can develop into a 15 minute backup forward rotation guy at the 3 or 4.

TLDR: Green fits us so well as an iso scorer at the 2 that I could see us trying to turn the Lowry sign and trade assets and Boucher into moving up to get him, though he also fits Detroit like a glove so my guess is they take him before us to roll with Hayes-Green-Grant-Bey-Stewart moving forward.

Green would be an incredible fit if we could get into the top 4. In the more likely scenario we sit at 7 or higher I like the idea of Moody, Mitchell, or Jalen Johnson in theory. Moody or Mitchell are probably the best chance to pair another good on-ball defender with OG. I am not willing to put a ceiling on Kispert though. The Raps development has done some pretty great things and he was undoubtedly an impact player for Gonzaga. Corey Kispert is definitely not a pick fans would be happy with after a year of tanking though.

I can't get in on Sengun. I can't see him being anything other than a 5 in the NBA but he's just too small.

A scenario I would like to see is a high potential pick in the lottery with someone like Moses Moody or Jalen Johnson, and a Lowry S&T with Miami to get their pick. Someone like Duarte would be nice fit with Flynn off the bench.

[BrunoSkull]

Barnes is elite on defense as well (Draymond Green comparison for a reason)

Bouknight is more like Barbosa, who has the tools, but seems to be lost on rotation.

Wagner does not seem to have the quickness against guards, saw a few blowby when he is not hide on the weakside against guards. I don't think he can come off screen, so when he cannot come out of screen and ask for a switch to a guard, he may got blowby on an isolation situation. He will work in some system, but I doubt it works on ours.

Yes the defensive similiaries are so spot on, Barnes' footwork is insane, constantly moving his feet staying low, that helps develop into a superb 1v1 on-ball defender, has sixth sense lane interception instincts that only further superhumaned by his long arms. Haven't read much about his defensive rotations, post and help D, he prides himself on D so he should trend well in those areas, the only concern is he's very aggressive, wonder if that may impact his foul rate.

[Indeed]

I think Giddey is interesting. Teams know big playmakers are doing work in the NBA, and the things you can't take away from him are 1. he's 6'8" and 2. he's creating off the dribble as a PG against pros.

Watch on YouTube

The knocks on him are a mixed bag, 31% 3pt as an 18 year old shows he probably won't be a non shooter, but he was only 69% from the FT line. Defensively doesn't have a plus wingspan and may not be able to stay in front of NBA players, but he did grab 1.2 steals and 7 rebounds in 40-minute NBL games.

Anyway, sending a scout to Australia doesn't mean we're that high on him, but he's worth due diligence and I wouldn't rage at the pick.

I think many people are going to be wrong and look dumb when it comes to Giddey when he steps foot into the NBA. I’ve heard comparisons from Rubio to Livingsto, which are flat out dumb.

Giddey is flat out the best passer in the draft. The way he passes and create something is very Nash-like. He’s probably the best player in the draft at controlling and creating the tempo during the game. Kid is good, add in his 6-8 frame and you got a special talent.

It’s how well his scoring and shooting translate that will dictate how good he becomes. If he becomes a knockdown shooter, there’s no way the kid isn’t a future allstar, plain and simple.

FWIW He shot 43/31/68 in the NBL while Lamelo shot 37/25/72 in he same league last season. Kid is very intriguing, don’t write him off. He’s one of those players a team could fall in love with and goes before our pick. I think he’s a draft riser. He’s one of the youngest players in the draft and he will be run an NBA offense from day one, and if he hits his potential he could be one of the biggest unicorns in he NBA.

The Raptors aren't drafting someone who is not a positive on the defensive end.
His lateral quickness is not there against quicker guards. If we are matched up against Boston, he can neither guard Brown nor Tatum (obviously not Walker with lightning speed).

[Psubs]

I can't get in on Sengun. I can't see him being anything other than a 5 in the NBA but he's just too small.

A scenario I would like to see is a high potential pick in the lottery with someone like Moses Moody or Jalen Johnson, and a Lowry S&T with Miami to get their pick. Someone like Duarte would be nice fit with Flynn off the bench.

Sengun feels like if he was 2 inches taller he would be JV (who almost put up 20/20 last night). At 6'9. Pass.

Honestly, he might turn out like Gillespie. Who is at least shooting 55.6% FG and 75% FT and a block per game in 16 mins.

[Psubs]

The Raptors aren't drafting someone who is not a positive on the defensive end.
His lateral quickness is not there against quicker guards. If we are matched up against Boston, he can neither guard Brown nor Tatum (obviously not Walker with lightning speed).

OG and Pascal would guard them. You put Giddey on Smart and Fred covers Kemba.

It might take Giddey 2 seasons to get into the starting lineup and that's okay. I guess Trent would lose his spot but it mean that the team is ready to contend if that were the case. It's like Boucher able to start on other teams but can't on Toronto.

Flynn, Harris, Giddie, Watson, Yuta, Boucher and Gillespie could probably beat the bottom 6 NBA teams regularly.

[gojoorange]

I can't get in on Sengun. I can't see him being anything other than a 5 in the NBA but he's just too small.

A scenario I would like to see is a high potential pick in the lottery with someone like Moses Moody or Jalen Johnson, and a Lowry S&T with Miami to get their pick. Someone like Duarte would be nice fit with Flynn off the bench.

Sengun feels like if he was 2 inches taller he would be JV (who almost put up 20/20 last night). At 6'9. Pass.

Honestly, he might turn out like Gillespie. Who is at least shooting 55.6% FG and 75% FT and a block per game in 16 mins.

If he had Freddie's wingspan with that skillset, I might get on board. Freddie's arms let him play way above his height.

[Indeed]

The Raptors aren't drafting someone who is not a positive on the defensive end.
His lateral quickness is not there against quicker guards. If we are matched up against Boston, he can neither guard Brown nor Tatum (obviously not Walker with lightning speed).

OG and Pascal would guard them. You put Giddey on Smart and Fred covers Kemba.

It might take Giddey 2 seasons to get into the starting lineup and that's okay. I guess Trent would lose his spot but it mean that the team is ready to contend if that were the case. It's like Boucher able to start on other teams but can't on Toronto.

Flynn, Harris, Giddie, Watson, Yuta, Boucher and Gillespie could probably beat the bottom 6 NBA teams regularly.

That is your assumption he can even guard Smart.
I am not starting Giddey in a contending team as his quickness may not allow us to switch or defend isolation.

He will face: Smart (Boston), Harris (Brooklyn), Hayward (Charlotte), Warren (Indiana), Oladipo (Miami), DiVincenzo (Milwaukee), Bullock (New York), Green (Philadephia), etc. And I am not seeing he can guard half of them.

[BoyzNTheHood]

I think Giddey is interesting. Teams know big playmakers are doing work in the NBA, and the things you can't take away from him are 1. he's 6'8" and 2. he's creating off the dribble as a PG against pros.

Watch on YouTube

The knocks on him are a mixed bag, 31% 3pt as an 18 year old shows he probably won't be a non shooter, but he was only 69% from the FT line. Defensively doesn't have a plus wingspan and may not be able to stay in front of NBA players, but he did grab 1.2 steals and 7 rebounds in 40-minute NBL games.

Anyway, sending a scout to Australia doesn't mean we're that high on him, but he's worth due diligence and I wouldn't rage at the pick.

I think many people are going to be wrong and look dumb when it comes to Giddey when he steps foot into the NBA. I’ve heard comparisons from Rubio to Livingsto, which are flat out dumb.

Giddey is flat out the best passer in the draft. The way he passes and create something is very Nash-like. He’s probably the best player in the draft at controlling and creating the tempo during the game. Kid is good, add in his 6-8 frame and you got a special talent.

It’s how well his scoring and shooting translate that will dictate how good he becomes. If he becomes a knockdown shooter, there’s no way the kid isn’t a future allstar, plain and simple.

FWIW He shot 43/31/68 in the NBL while Lamelo shot 37/25/72 in he same league last season. Kid is very intriguing, don’t write him off. He’s one of those players a team could fall in love with and goes before our pick. I think he’s a draft riser. He’s one of the youngest players in the draft and he will be run an NBA offense from day one, and if he hits his potential he could be one of the biggest unicorns in he NBA.

Don't come in here calling posters dumb and then compare Giddey's passing to Steve Nash.

[MikeM]

Barnes as a 5 with a reasonable 3pt shot is a disgusting thought. He could grab boards and lead our break. Like Adebayo on steroids.

[BoyzNTheHood]

Barnes as a 5 with a reasonable 3pt shot is a disgusting thought. He could grab boards and lead our break. Like Adebayo on steroids.

Measured 6′ 8.75” barefoot, 6′ 9.75” in shoes, 242.6 lbs, 7′ 2.75′ wingspan, and 9′ 0” standing reach at the 2017 NBA Draft Combine

Barnes measured 6'6.5 barefoot, 6'8 in shoes, 210 lbs, with a 7'2 wingspan, and a 9'0 standing reach in mid 2018

Of course, this was Scottie back in 2018 and it's not outrageous to think that a 19 year old kid has grown since being measured as a 17 year old, but I'm not sure if the beef is there. He does have the frame to put on a lot of size though. If he measures out similar to Bam it would be an interesting experiment to play him similarly. Now all we need is Jimmy Butler