Tank World Order (10.0) The Empire Strikes Back

[Duffman100]

Of the teams who have tanked in the past 20 years, who has been successful?

As far as I can tell, only the Thunder have made the Finals and made it once.

[Mikistan]

Cleveland's entire franchise is built on the tank

[Duffman100]

Cleveland's entire franchise is built on the tank

Okay, so that's sort of one. They drafted the GOAT, he left. They then continued to tank. If Lebron doesnt' resign with them, they aren't relevant. Luckily he did and they had the assets from tanking to build around him.

Look at this.


How many of these teams actually 'tanked'. The Thunder? Sure.

The Spurs lost Robinson for a year.
Bulls? Nope?
Heat? Nope.
Lakers? Nope.
Warriors? Nope.
Bucks? Nope.
Rockets? Nope.
Jazz? Nope.
Nets? Nope.
Pistons? Nope.
Raptors? Nope.
Mavericks? Nope.

I'm up for getting a high draft pick and would be excited to team someone with Barnes. But there's just no evidence tanking works.

[God Squad]

Masai burned through all of Bryan Colangelo's assets and built a champion squad from it. But make no mistake it was BC assets that he accumulated from either lottery or trades that made it happen.

Raptors desperately need to recoup their prospects/assets. Chris Boucher? Flynn? Banton? Thad?

C'mon now.

[Steelo Green]

Cleveland's entire franchise is built on the tank

Okay, so that's sort of one. They drafted the GOAT, he left. They then continued to tank. If Lebron doesnt' resign with them, they aren't relevant. Luckily he did and they had the assets from tanking to build around him.

Look at this.


How many of these teams actually 'tanked'. The Thunder? Sure.

The Spurs lost Robinson for a year.
Bulls? Nope?
Heat? Nope.
Lakers? Nope.
Warriors? Nope.
Bucks? Nope.
Rockets? Nope.
Jazz? Nope.
Nets? Nope.
Pistons? Nope.
Raptors? Nope.
Mavericks? Nope.

I'm up for getting a high draft pick and would be excited to team someone with Barnes. But there's just no evidence tanking works.

Spurs tanked on purpose, it was an open secret they sat Robinson similar to Steph when they knew they weren't going to win anything.

Tanking is to best the best draft asset possible. Duncan and Lebron - proponents of tanking (and in the Cavs case one of the worst teams of all time) drafted players that were equivalent to 9 titles in the last 25 years.

Reality is you need all time great players to win, almost every title team has one, and the best chances to get that is with a lottery pick, the higher the better.

The Rockets did tank for Hakeem.

We will never be LAL or Miami where Lebron comes to us, so we are left with the rest who are blatant tanks, or just a bunch of top picks.

MJ, Shaq, Hakeem, Lebron, Duncan make up 16 of those titles listed out of 29 titles, so either the 1 pick, or in MJs case top 3, and the rest are all lottery picks in the top 10.

Tanking helps you get a better lottery pick, which is what almost every title team ever needs to win.

[Duffman100]

Cleveland's entire franchise is built on the tank

Okay, so that's sort of one. They drafted the GOAT, he left. They then continued to tank. If Lebron doesnt' resign with them, they aren't relevant. Luckily he did and they had the assets from tanking to build around him.

Look at this.


How many of these teams actually 'tanked'. The Thunder? Sure.

The Spurs lost Robinson for a year.
Bulls? Nope?
Heat? Nope.
Lakers? Nope.
Warriors? Nope.
Bucks? Nope.
Rockets? Nope.
Jazz? Nope.
Nets? Nope.
Pistons? Nope.
Raptors? Nope.
Mavericks? Nope.

I'm up for getting a high draft pick and would be excited to team someone with Barnes. But there's just no evidence tanking works.

Spurs tanked on purpose, it was an open secret they sat Robinson similar to Steph when they knew they weren't going to win anything.

Tanking is to best the best draft asset possible. Duncan and Lebron - proponents of tanking (and in the Cavs case one of the worst teams of all time) drafted players that were equivalent to 9 titles in the last 25 years.

Reality is you need all time great players to win, almost every title team has one, and the best chances to get that is with a lottery pick, the higher the better.

The Rockets did tank for Hakeem.

We will never be LAL or Miami where Lebron comes to us, so we are left with the rest who are blatant tanks, or just a bunch of top picks.

MJ, Shaq, Hakeem, Lebron, Duncan make up 16 of those titles listed out of 29 titles, so either the 1 pick, or in MJs case top 3, and the rest are all lottery picks in the top 10.

Tanking helps you get a better lottery pick, which is what almost every title team ever needs to win.

Robinson was hurt. They may have been slow to bring him back but they didn't tank.

The Cavs were lucky that Lebron came back. If he doesn't come back, they don't win anything despite years of tanking.

Orlando lost Shaq and didn't get anything from their tanking.

So you have Houston then who had 1 year and again, were lucky to grab a top 10 player of all time.

None of this still to me says that tanking is the solution. Especially it isn't the ONLY solution and the only way to win.

[will]

Ya I hate the treadmill...

Get the pelaton!

[OakleyDokely]

The problem with a multi year tank is that even if you get really lucky and draft a great player, because you've stripped the roster down to basically nothing, it's very hard to build it back up again to the point where you're a contender.

It might take years just to get back to .500 let alone contention and great players nowadays get impatient very quickly. They will demand out and it typically happens in their next contract after their rookie deal. Forget about even winning a title, how many great players that were drafted with top picks actually stuck it out with their original team?

It seems that the best kind of tanks are the stealth tanks and those are one year tanks usually the result of major injuries. This way, you can add a great young player to your existing core without having to start from scratch.

[Duffman100]

The problem with a multi year tank is that even if you get really lucky and draft a great player, because you've stripped the roster down to basically nothing, it's very hard to build it back up again to the point where you're a contender.

It might take years just to get back to .500 let alone contention and great players nowadays get impatient very quickly. They will demand out and it typically happens in their next contract after their rookie deal. Forget about even winning a title, how many great players that were drafted with top picks actually stuck it out with their original team?

It seems that the best kind of tanks are the stealth tanks and those are one year tanks usually the result of major injuries. This way, you can add a great young player to your existing core.

Exactly what happened with Cleveland and Lebron. He was dragging a bunch of dead weight and even a GOAT couldn't win a title with that bunch. He had to leave, they had to reset with a bunch of high picks to then build around him.

[Tacoma]

Cleveland's entire franchise is built on the tank

Okay, so that's sort of one. They drafted the GOAT, he left. They then continued to tank. If Lebron doesnt' resign with them, they aren't relevant. Luckily he did and they had the assets from tanking to build around him.

Look at this.


How many of these teams actually 'tanked'. The Thunder? Sure.

The Spurs lost Robinson for a year.
Bulls? Nope?
Heat? Nope.
Lakers? Nope.
Warriors? Nope.
Bucks? Nope.
Rockets? Nope.
Jazz? Nope.
Nets? Nope.
Pistons? Nope.
Raptors? Nope.
Mavericks? Nope.

I'm up for getting a high draft pick and would be excited to team someone with Barnes. But there's just no evidence tanking works.

In those 29 years shown on your list, only a dozen different teams have won a Championship. What this says is tank or not, it's hard to win a Championship, so the answer is going to be a low number in the first place.

A better question is of those Championship teams over 29 seasons, how many have won with at least one of the players they drafted being their top 2 players? By my count, it's all but only 2 teams: the 2004 Pistons (Prince was not top 2) and our 2019 Raptors (Siakam was not top 2, although that's arguable). The rest, like Kobe with LA, Duncan with SA, Dallas with Dirk, Bucks with Giannis, etc., won with a cornerstone player that they drafted.

So drafting a cornerstone player is a key prerequisite to being a Championship team. Stats also show that generally the higher you draft the better your chances of finding that cornerstone player (see here for example). Therefore you want to draft as high as possible. Thus teams tank.

[will]

Of the teams who have tanked in the past 20 years, who has been successful?

As far as I can tell, only the Thunder have made the Finals and made it once.

Did the Warriors tank pre-Curry, Clay and Draymond?

[dTox]

The problem with a multi year tank is that even if you get really lucky and draft a great player, because you've stripped the roster down to basically nothing, it's very hard to build it back up again to the point where you're a contender.

It might take years just to get back to .500 let alone contention and great players nowadays get impatient very quickly. They will demand out and it typically happens in their next contract after their rookie deal. Forget about even winning a title, how many great players that were drafted with top picks actually stuck it out with their original team?

It seems that the best kind of tanks are the stealth tanks and those are one year tanks usually the result of major injuries. This way, you can add a great young player to your existing core.

Exactly what happened with Cleveland and Lebron. He was dragging a bunch of dead weight and even a GOAT couldn't win a title with that bunch. He had to leave, they had to reset with a bunch of high picks to then build around him.

I'm not in favor of multi-year tanking, however, here are the reasons why the Cavs lost Lebron (the first time):
-Drafted Luke Jackson with the 10th pick in 04 (the year after drafting Lebron)
-didn't have first round pick after 04 until 06
-Blew their wad in guys like Larry Hughes in free agency,
-trading for an aging Shaq,
-let Carlos boozer walk with nothing in return

In fact, what the Cavs did was the opposite of tank, they refused to acquire draft picks to surround James with blue chip prospects, made short sighted moves for aging players who were on the decline, and the one guy who was a decent side kick (Boozer), walked from the team and thrived in Utah.

[Duffman100]

Cleveland's entire franchise is built on the tank

Okay, so that's sort of one. They drafted the GOAT, he left. They then continued to tank. If Lebron doesnt' resign with them, they aren't relevant. Luckily he did and they had the assets from tanking to build around him.

Look at this.


How many of these teams actually 'tanked'. The Thunder? Sure.

The Spurs lost Robinson for a year.
Bulls? Nope?
Heat? Nope.
Lakers? Nope.
Warriors? Nope.
Bucks? Nope.
Rockets? Nope.
Jazz? Nope.
Nets? Nope.
Pistons? Nope.
Raptors? Nope.
Mavericks? Nope.

I'm up for getting a high draft pick and would be excited to team someone with Barnes. But there's just no evidence tanking works.

In those 29 years shown on your list, only a dozen have won a Championship. What this says is tank or not, it's hard to win a Championship, so the answer is going to be a low number in the first place.

A better question is of those Championship teams over 29 seasons, how many have won with at least one of the players they drafted being their top 2 players? By my count, it's only 2 teams: the 2004 Pistons (Prince was not top 2) and our 2019 Raptors (Siakam was not top 2, although that's arguable). The rest, like Kobe with LA, Duncan with SA, Dallas with Dirk, Bucks with Giannis, etc., won with a cornerstone player that they drafted.

So drafting a cornerstone player is a key prerequisite to being a Championship team. Stats also show that generally the higher you draft the better your chances of finding that cornerstone player (see here for example). Therefore you want to draft as high as possible. Thus teams tank.

But not all teams tank. And again, it doesn't seem like there is a direct correlation between tanking and team success.

The majority of teams winning titles didn't actively tank. Lakers didn't get Kobe from tanking, Bucks didn't get Giannis from tanking, etc etc.

The point being is that there are multiple avenues to get a title. Sure, you need that top 5-10 player, that cornerstone player. But when you go into a draft and tank, only ONE team gets that player. The rest are loser in the process.

And as the Cavs example. You can tank and get a GOAT...but you have to build around them.

[Duffman100]

Of the teams who have tanked in the past 20 years, who has been successful?

As far as I can tell, only the Thunder have made the Finals and made it once.

Did the Warriors tank pre-Curry, Clay and Draymond?

No. They were attempting to build around the core that was Ellis, Jrich, Biedrins etc. They were rolling out guys like Maggette, Stephen Jackson, Jamal Crawford. And were winning 40+ games with that core for a bit. They just sucked in a really tough West.

Curry was drafted 7th
Klay was drafted 11th
Green was drafted 35th.

[Reeko]

Of the teams who have tanked in the past 20 years, who has been successful?

As far as I can tell, only the Thunder have made the Finals and made it once.

Did the Warriors tank pre-Curry, Clay and Draymond?

No. They were attempting to build around the core that was Ellis, Jrich, Biedrins etc. They were rolling out guys like Maggette, Stephen Jackson, Jamal Crawford. And were winning 40+ games with that core for a bit. They just sucked in a really tough West.

Curry was drafted 7th
Klay was drafted 11th
Green was drafted 35th.

You can make an argument that they did tank. They had 3 out of 4 seasons where they won less than 30 games. They probably started out those seasons trying to be competitive but at some point the writing was on the wall and they must have decided to just get a pick as high in the lottery as possible. In that 4 year span they drafted 7th twice, and 11th once.

[Duffman100]

Did the Warriors tank pre-Curry, Clay and Draymond?

No. They were attempting to build around the core that was Ellis, Jrich, Biedrins etc. They were rolling out guys like Maggette, Stephen Jackson, Jamal Crawford. And were winning 40+ games with that core for a bit. They just sucked in a really tough West.

Curry was drafted 7th
Klay was drafted 11th
Green was drafted 35th.

You can make an argument that they did tank. They had 3 out of 4 seasons where they won less than 30 games. They probably started out those seasons trying to be competitive but at some point the writing was on the wall and they must have decided to just get a pick as high in the lottery as possible. In that 4 year span they drafted 7th twice, and 11th once.

But they weren't tanking and if you remember what they were doing. Look at their roster.

Those picks aren't too far off where we're at right now. Also where we were at when we drafted Ross, Derozan, Ed Davis, etc....

They shouldn't be a the poster child for what this thread wants. They just drafted really well.

[Los_29]

Of the teams who have tanked in the past 20 years, who has been successful?

As far as I can tell, only the Thunder have made the Finals and made it once.

Did the Warriors tank pre-Curry, Clay and Draymond?

Nope. They treadmilled.

[Fairview4Life]

The Warriors did hold out Ellis and Maggette etc. for the last few weeks of 08/09 to tank.

[Reeko]

No. They were attempting to build around the core that was Ellis, Jrich, Biedrins etc. They were rolling out guys like Maggette, Stephen Jackson, Jamal Crawford. And were winning 40+ games with that core for a bit. They just sucked in a really tough West.

Curry was drafted 7th
Klay was drafted 11th
Green was drafted 35th.

You can make an argument that they did tank. They had 3 out of 4 seasons where they won less than 30 games. They probably started out those seasons trying to be competitive but at some point the writing was on the wall and they must have decided to just get a pick as high in the lottery as possible. In that 4 year span they drafted 7th twice, and 11th once.

But they weren't tanking and if you remember what they were doing. Look at their roster.

Those picks aren't too far off where we're at right now. Also where we were at when we drafted Ross, Derozan, Ed Davis, etc....

They shouldn't be a the poster child for what this thread wants. They just drafted really well.

No they aren't, but l think lines get blurred between just sucking and just letting the end of the season go to waste to improve your chances in the draft, versus just flat out tanking from the rip. I think most of the posters here were fine with giving this team a shot at competing this season even if it was a likely 1st round exit. But once guys started seeing the struggle just to be a play-in team they threw their hands up and wanted to forfeit the season.

[Duffman100]

The Warriors did hold out Ellis and Maggette etc. for the last few weeks of 08/09 to tank.

Sure, but that's different than being a full out tanking team.