Pacers Pick Tracking (Update: #19 officially)

[brownbobcat]

i.e. Thad didn't cost a FRP - it was moving down 13 slots, that's like, different
.

You're mocking the actual facts of the trade? That isn't arguing in good faith.

Is it still trading the FRP if you move down 20 slots? What about 50 slots? I just find it highly convenient that the same posters who downplay 2nd-rounders being traded away will hype up 2nd-rounders received.

[Duffman100]

i.e. Thad didn't cost a FRP - it was moving down 13 slots, that's like, different
.

You're mocking the actual facts of the trade? That isn't arguing in good faith.

Is it still trading the FRP if you move down 20 slots? What about 50 slots? I just find it highly convenient that the same posters who downplay 2nd-rounders being traded away will hype up 2nd-rounders received.

Well that would change the facts of the trade, so yes it would change the discussion of what happened.

[brownbobcat]

You're mocking the actual facts of the trade? That isn't arguing in good faith.

Is it still trading the FRP if you move down 20 slots? What about 50 slots? I just find it highly convenient that the same posters who downplay 2nd-rounders being traded away will hype up 2nd-rounders received.

Well that would change the facts of the trade, so yes it would change the discussion of what happened.

At the end of the day, it's a meaningless technicality because people who were against the trade were opposed to moving down 13 slots regardless of what it was called.

I didn't like the Poeltl trade - doesn't matter if you call it trading a FRP or moving down 53 slots.

[JShuttlesworth]

I can't believe there are still the same people going on about how we did't trade our 1st for Thad, and yet the Spurs used our 1st to draft someone. It's just hilarious to me

I guess we also didn't trade DeMar to the Spurs, because we got Kawhi back

[Duffman100]

I can't believe there are still the same people going on about how we did't trade our 1st for Thad, and yet the Spurs used our 1st to draft someone. It's just hilarious to me

I guess we also didn't trade DeMar to the Spurs, because we got Kawhi back

We obviously traded our 1st to the Spurs, its ridiculous to say people aren't saying that.

But the disingenuous argument that we traded our 1st for Thad when it was part of a bigger trade is ridiculous.

They traded a first for Thad and a high second in the same draft to take advantage of a lesser / non guaranteed cap hit to make other moves. It didn't work out so well considering the player we drafted had an unexpected career ending medical issue. **** happens.

It didn't really work well for the Spurs either because Branham sucks. So ... why does it even matter?

[brownbobcat]

I can't believe there are still the same people going on about how we did't trade our 1st for Thad, and yet the Spurs used our 1st to draft someone. It's just hilarious to me

I guess we also didn't trade DeMar to the Spurs, because we got Kawhi back

We obviously traded our 1st to the Spurs, its ridiculous to say people aren't saying that.

But the disingenuous argument that we traded our 1st for Thad when it was part of a bigger trade is ridiculous.

They traded a first for Thad and a high second in the same draft to take advantage of a lesser / non guaranteed cap hit to make other moves. It didn't work out so well considering the player we drafted had an unexpected career ending medical issue. **** happens.

It didn't really work well for the Spurs either because Branham sucks. So ... why does it even matter?

What the Spurs did with the pick is completely irrelevant.

The #1 reason the trade mattered is it revealed the FO had a seriously flawed understanding of the team and its core, a flaw that would manifest into even bigger mistakes down the road because failures of strategy are 100X worse than failures of execution. This team needed every single opportunity, every single lottery ball for building up its asset base. It could not afford the delusion that they could simply draft wherever and turn hay into gold. Being wrong about the future is understandable, being wrong about the present is dumb.

[Duffman100]

I can't believe there are still the same people going on about how we did't trade our 1st for Thad, and yet the Spurs used our 1st to draft someone. It's just hilarious to me

I guess we also didn't trade DeMar to the Spurs, because we got Kawhi back

We obviously traded our 1st to the Spurs, its ridiculous to say people aren't saying that.

But the disingenuous argument that we traded our 1st for Thad when it was part of a bigger trade is ridiculous.

They traded a first for Thad and a high second in the same draft to take advantage of a lesser / non guaranteed cap hit to make other moves. It didn't work out so well considering the player we drafted had an unexpected career ending medical issue. **** happens.

It didn't really work well for the Spurs either because Branham sucks. So ... why does it even matter?

What the Spurs did with the pick is completely irrelevant.

The #1 reason the trade mattered is it revealed the FO had a seriously flawed understanding of the team and its core, a flaw that would manifest into even bigger mistakes down the road because failures of strategy are 100X worse than failures of execution. This team needed every single opportunity, every single lottery ball for building up its asset base. It could not afford the delusion that they could simply draft wherever and turn hay into gold.

I mean it's not completely irrelevant as it was part of the trade and will be connected to it.

What's not irrelevant is the player / prospect they drafted having to end his career and thus not factored into this trade. And he could have been part of the asset base you mentioned. If Koloko played 10-15 minutes this year and was our backup 5, the trade looks completely different right? And then their 'flaweed understanding' has a completely different look.

[bape_lovers]

trade is like gold mines here, but yet when we picks back from the pacers, its the worst draft in decades. never win

[YogurtProducer]

I can't believe there are still the same people going on about how we did't trade our 1st for Thad, and yet the Spurs used our 1st to draft someone. It's just hilarious to me

I guess we also didn't trade DeMar to the Spurs, because we got Kawhi back

We obviously traded our 1st to the Spurs, its ridiculous to say people aren't saying that.

But the disingenuous argument that we traded our 1st for Thad when it was part of a bigger trade is ridiculous.

They traded a first for Thad and a high second in the same draft to take advantage of a lesser / non guaranteed cap hit to make other moves. It didn't work out so well considering the player we drafted had an unexpected career ending medical issue. **** happens.

It didn't really work well for the Spurs either because Branham sucks. So ... why does it even matter?

What the Spurs did with the pick is completely irrelevant.

The #1 reason the trade mattered is it revealed the FO had a seriously flawed understanding of the team and its core, a flaw that would manifest into even bigger mistakes down the road because failures of strategy are 100X worse than failures of execution. This team needed every single opportunity, every single lottery ball for building up its asset base. It could not afford the delusion that they could simply draft wherever and turn hay into gold. Being wrong about the future is understandable, being wrong about the present is dumb.

So the fact it was a 13-pick trade down is irrelevant
The fact SA drafted absolutely nothing with the pick they got is irrelevant

The only relevant part is a 1st rounder left our grasp and Thad came back from SA. Nothing else about the trade is relevant

All the trade has revealed is fans who don't understand how the cap or contracts work. No one wants to take the time to understand the cap ramifications of the 20th vs 33rd pick, nor how having Thad's bird rights allowed us to essentially create salary to use in future trades if we needed.

In the end, none of that ending up mattered but putting yourself in those situations to have options is valuable in itself.

[billy_hoyle]

I can't believe there are still the same people going on about how we did't trade our 1st for Thad, and yet the Spurs used our 1st to draft someone. It's just hilarious to me

I guess we also didn't trade DeMar to the Spurs, because we got Kawhi back

Wouldn't it be more like saying 'I can't believe we traded an all-star, a former top 10 pick in DeMar to the Spurs' without mentioning that we actually got back stuff in the trade (like Kawhi).

[YogurtProducer]

i.e. Thad didn't cost a FRP - it was moving down 13 slots, that's like, different
.

You're mocking the actual facts of the trade? That isn't arguing in good faith.

Is it still trading the FRP if you move down 20 slots? What about 50 slots? I just find it highly convenient that the same posters who downplay 2nd-rounders being traded away will hype up 2nd-rounders received.

You act as if ever FRP is equal. Trading down 13 spots from 1st to 14th matters a lot more than 20th to 33rd. Arbitrability acting like since we passed the arbitrary 30th to 31st line matters is just dumb.

I just don't know which posters are hyping up 2nd rounders received? Everyone (or at least anyone who takes the time to look into things) knows that the draft is a complete guessing game and the further you go through the draft is gets murkier and murkier.

[YogurtProducer]

I can't believe there are still the same people going on about how we did't trade our 1st for Thad, and yet the Spurs used our 1st to draft someone. It's just hilarious to me

I guess we also didn't trade DeMar to the Spurs, because we got Kawhi back

Wouldn't it be more like saying 'I can't believe we traded an all-star, a former top 10 pick in DeMar to the Spurs' without mentioning that we actually got back stuff in the trade (like Kawhi).

I cant believe we traded Demar and Poeltl for Danny Green Thankfully, the Grizzlies traded us Gasol for a 2nd rounder.

[Scase]

Well good thing we don’t go past the first condition.

If I trade you a FRP for a SRP, you no longer have a FRP. It's pretty binary, it cost us the ability to pick in the first round.

Not getting into the minutia of how we would've picked Koloko anyways etc, it's pretty straight forward. Before the trade we had a FRP, after the trade we didn't, therefore, it cost us a FRP, and was replaced by a SRP.

That's a pretty objective statement.

Unless you mean Thad specifically, didn't cost us a FRP. Then yeah you're right, Dragic cost us a FRP.

We all know what the conversation point is and what it has been.

Thad was traded for a FRP. That's been the false talking point that's been used for two years as people continue to whine about the situation.

People need to at least debate in good faith.

Ok, but if all he did was change Thad, to Dragic, everything still remains true.

Dragic cost us a FRP. This is kind of proving his point. Getting caught up in the semantics/minutia of it is exactly what he is saying people do to defend bad moves and move said goalposts.

Dragic didn't cost a FRP.
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, that's not a big deal.
And if it is, that's not Masai's fault.
And if it was, he didn't mean it.
And if he did, shut up about it already.

I changed it, but how is the above any different in the end? The excuses just continue to be made as to why something wasn't as bad as it was, which again, is the whole point of his post.

[YogurtProducer]

If I trade you a FRP for a SRP, you no longer have a FRP. It's pretty binary, it cost us the ability to pick in the first round.

Not getting into the minutia of how we would've picked Koloko anyways etc, it's pretty straight forward. Before the trade we had a FRP, after the trade we didn't, therefore, it cost us a FRP, and was replaced by a SRP.

That's a pretty objective statement.

Unless you mean Thad specifically, didn't cost us a FRP. Then yeah you're right, Dragic cost us a FRP.

We all know what the conversation point is and what it has been.

Thad was traded for a FRP. That's been the false talking point that's been used for two years as people continue to whine about the situation.

People need to at least debate in good faith.

Ok, but if all he did was change Thad, to Dragic, everything still remains true.

Dragic cost us a FRP. This is kind of proving his point. Getting caught up in the semantics/minutia of it is exactly what he is saying people do to defend bad moves and move said goalposts.

Dragic didn't cost a FRP.
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, that's not a big deal.
And if it is, that's not Masai's fault.
And if it was, he didn't mean it.
And if he did, shut up about it already.

I changed it, but how is the above any different in the end? The excuses just continue to be made as to why something wasn't as bad as it was, which again, is the whole point of his post.

Changing the names doesn't turn a bad faith argument into a good one

The reality of the situation was the Raptors traded the 20th pick and Dragic (who was gone) for the 33rd pick and Thad (who we could re-sign, and did).

Saying "we traded a FRP for Thad" ignores half of the return of the trade (and arguably the most impactful return).

It ended up as Pick 20 / Dragic for Koloko and Thad. Wow - crazy how suddenly that does not seem so lopsided anymore

[Ackshun]

i.e. Thad didn't cost a FRP - it was moving down 13 slots, that's like, different
.

You're mocking the actual facts of the trade? That isn't arguing in good faith.

Is it still trading the FRP if you move down 20 slots? What about 50 slots? I just find it highly convenient that the same posters who downplay 2nd-rounders being traded away will hype up 2nd-rounders received.

Yeah man I can’t believe this **** is still going on.

We traded a 1st round pick for a 2nd round pick. Periot

[Duffman100]

You're mocking the actual facts of the trade? That isn't arguing in good faith.

Is it still trading the FRP if you move down 20 slots? What about 50 slots? I just find it highly convenient that the same posters who downplay 2nd-rounders being traded away will hype up 2nd-rounders received.

Yeah man I can’t believe this **** is still going on.

We traded a 1st round pick for a 2nd round pick. Periot

We traded Dragic and the 20th pick for Thad and the 33rd pick.

Why is it so controversial to just use the FACTS of the trade?

[Scase]

Is it still trading the FRP if you move down 20 slots? What about 50 slots? I just find it highly convenient that the same posters who downplay 2nd-rounders being traded away will hype up 2nd-rounders received.

Yeah man I can’t believe this **** is still going on.

We traded a 1st round pick for a 2nd round pick. Periot

We traded Dragic and the 20th pick for Thad and the 33rd pick.

Why is it so controversial to just use the FACTS of the trade?

As I stated previously, Dragic cost us a FRP. This is the crux of the argument.

Don't get Dragic, don't need to trade away a FRP. Don't make a bad trade that puts you into the tax, don't need to trade away a FRP.

Dragic cost us a FRP.

[Duffman100]

Yeah man I can’t believe this **** is still going on.

We traded a 1st round pick for a 2nd round pick. Periot

We traded Dragic and the 20th pick for Thad and the 33rd pick.

Why is it so controversial to just use the FACTS of the trade?

As I stated previously, Dragic cost us a FRP. This is the crux of the argument.

Don't get Dragic, don't need to trade away a FRP. Don't make a bad trade that puts you into the tax, don't need to trade away a FRP.

Dragic cost us a FRP.

That's the crux of a new argument that's now being created.

[brownbobcat]

So the fact it was a 13-pick trade down is irrelevant
The fact SA drafted absolutely nothing with the pick they got is irrelevant

The only relevant part is a 1st rounder left our grasp and Thad came back from SA. Nothing else about the trade is relevant

All the trade has revealed is fans who don't understand how the cap or contracts work. No one wants to take the time to understand the cap ramifications of the 20th vs 33rd pick, nor how having Thad's bird rights allowed us to essentially create salary to use in future trades if we needed.

In the end, none of that ending up mattered but putting yourself in those situations to have options is valuable in itself.

Operating as an above-cap team is not rocket science, you don't need to give away assets in order to obtain dead money contracts - it's the easiest thing in the NBA.

If the Spurs hadn't traded Thad to Toronto, he would have been waived. Masai and the FO played themselves. Being so close to the luxury tax that they needed to jettison Dragic was a problem of their own creation.

[Scase]

We traded Dragic and the 20th pick for Thad and the 33rd pick.

Why is it so controversial to just use the FACTS of the trade?

As I stated previously, Dragic cost us a FRP. This is the crux of the argument.

Don't get Dragic, don't need to trade away a FRP. Don't make a bad trade that puts you into the tax, don't need to trade away a FRP.

Dragic cost us a FRP.

That's the crux of a new argument that's now being created.

No, it's quite literally the same one, but made to be more accurate.

Thad didn't cost us a pick, Dragic did. Thad was needed to match salaries (IIRC).

So as I asked previously

Dragic didn't cost a FRP.
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, that's not a big deal.
And if it is, that's not Masai's fault.
And if it was, he didn't mean it.
And if he did, shut up about it already.

How is it any different in the end. The same defences are being made, the same goalposts etc. We lost a FRP, period.