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Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7

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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#1561 » by 5DOM » Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:59 am

TDotRep wrote:Yes less than 2 years ago kanter did take it to val. Jonas previously had a 37/19 game and scored 20 or more in 5/8 games before posting 14/5 on kanter but that was than.

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Show me the difference from the kid who got handled like a puppet from a 2009 skinnier shorter kanter to now.


So you are using two highlight vids to see how much improvement a player has shown?
First video isn't even when Valanciunas faced Kanter - who didn't play in the U18 tourney last year - and you have to remember the second vid of him is against Euroleague competition. While Kanter was playing basketball on his xbox, Valanciunas has proven himself as one of the best young European players (3rd in the Young Player's Award behind Vesely and Rubio who most say didn't deserve the 2nd place over Valanciunas)
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#1562 » by Kevin Willis » Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:03 am

OhCanada wrote:The most dominant player in this draft is Kanter, that cannot be questioned. Bismack Biyambo is one of the most overrated prospects ever and you people thinking he deserves to be drafted by Toronto should be ashamed. Do your homework.

1-Kyrie Irving- Top class PG, very good floor management, no real weakness throughout his game, good at everything including perimeter defence.

2-Derrick Williams-Gives defense effort, is a great athlete and a versatile forward who can give minutes at the 3 and 4. Andrea Bargnani practically plays a SF role on offense by coasting on the perimeter and driving to the rim sometimes posting as well. Williams could play that role while driving more often, and posting more often, and also while gaurding the oppositions SF, and having Ed Davis and hopefully a true C on the floor. Williams gives the Raptors no let up in trading Bargnani and actaully is a better fit for the system.

3-Enes Kanter-The most dominate Euro player at his age quite arguably ever. If he played in college this season there is little to no doubt in my mind Kentucky would have been NCAA Champs and Kanters name would be called 1st overall. The issues with Kanter are the fact that he would prefer to play PF as the only reason is he is listed as a C is a recent growth spurt. Kanter has not played much basketball in the last 2 years at a competitive level so he has not quite adjusted to his hieght and people question if he has matured his game. Kanter has had tendonitis and knee surgery which makes him an injury risk of some sort.

4-Jan Vesely-People on this site may not know but this may even be a better fit then Williams. Toronto has a strong need for a SF who is willing to play some defense, stick shots, get out on the fastbreak and really just make intangible reads and hustle plays. Thats what Vesely is all about. Just ask any Jazz fan how valueable Andrei Kirelenko is too that team because that is his draft comparison. With so many available C's in free agency taking a unsure shot at a possibly injury prone Kanter, an unready Valanciunas, a overrated Biyambo may not a good idea.

5-Jonas Valanciunas-For a kid his age he shows great potential. Soft hands, great shooting touch, and excellent hustle. He is like Marcin Gortat or an offensively polished Andris Beidrins (potentially). he could easily be another Euro prospect who does not fulfill his potential.



I'm with you on Vesely. I think he's comparable to Perry Jones except he has a higher motor. Put some meat on that boy, or not, and he would be a difference maker. He just won't be a franchise player or a big difference maker like Irving/Williams or Kanter could be. But I would prefer him over BB anyday.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#1563 » by fredericklove » Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:13 am

Vesely looks like an athletic version of past-prime AK47. He'd be a good option if we were to draft after 6th which is impossible.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#1564 » by 5DOM » Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:18 am

OhCanada wrote:Bismack Biyambo got that role only because Estaban Batista, (remember him?), was sold to a team due to financial issues. Batista was an NBA floater for a while with the Hawks and celtics. He averaged around 30-mpg, 13-ppg, 9-rpg, 2-spg, and 1-bpg. Biyambo only averaged 17-mpg 6-ppg, 5-rpg, 2-bpg, while holding a 1.6-topg, and 2-fpg.

Biyambo has earned his stats in a mans league against players that are at a D-League calibur, well maybe a bit higher but thats the playing field essentially. The best thing out of the ACB league in my memory is Marc Gasol, he averaged 34-mpg, 16-ppg, 8.5-rpg, 2.4-apg, and 1.8-bpg. He was a 2nd round draft pick.


First of all Marc Gasol wasn't averaging those numbers when he was picked in the 2nd round. He averaged 10.8PPG, 5.5RPG, 0.9BPG, 1.2TOPG, 2.1PFPG in 23MPG. Much more polished offensively than Biyombo as expected, but hardly much better numbers than Biyombo's considering Gasol was a 22 year old then compared to 18* now for Biyombo.

And also, that Biyombo only plays 17MPG is absolutely not an issue for me as long as he's producing and showing his potential. I said something similar when someone else suggested that Biyombo will spend a couple of years in the D-League because he plays so little for his ACB team:

5DOM wrote:I obviously don't know the reason behind this because I simply don't follow European basketball, but it seems like most youngsters don't get much minutes. Ricky Rubio at the time of the draft averaged 20 mins a game, but no one thought he would go to the D-League if he came here. Serge Ibaka, who Biyombo is likened to, averaged 16 mins a game, and he's playing just fine for one of the best teams in the NBA. Just a couple of days ago, he had a 22points, 16rebounds, 4blks game. Biyombo's not as skilled as Ibaka offensively, but they had very similar numbers in the ACB with Biyombo's block numbers being significantly better than Ibaka's. Valanciunas averages 15 minutes a game (in the Euroleague though), but do you expect him spend his first two years in the D-League? Even Beaubois who averaged 22MPG in the French league is getting minutes at Dallas.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#1565 » by Silk Wilkes » Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:19 am

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=6425414

Snippet of the guys we're interested in...

The "No Surprises Here" Group

Alec Burks, G/F, So., Colorado
Likely draft position: Lottery


Breakdown: Like the rest of the decisions in this group, Burks' choice to forgo the final two years of his collegiate career is something of a no-brainer, even if it's not a Derrick Williams-level slam dunk. Burks emerged as a tantalizing pro prospect in his surprising freshman season, and he only built on that promise as a sophomore. The only thing keeping Burks from being a possible top-five pick is a shaky jump shot. But athletes this good, with Burks' innate feel for scoring around the rim, only come along so often.

What it means for his team: Thanks in large part to the consistently brilliant play of Burks and the solid tutelage of first-year coach Tad Boyle, the 2010-11 Buffaloes got closer to the NCAA tournament than at any time in the program's recent past. Problem is, Burks isn't the only player leaving. Colorado also waves farewell to seniors Cory Higgins, Levi Knutson and Marcus Relphorde, all of whom were double-digit scorers last season. In other words, the Buffs will enter their first year in the Pac-12 -- and the second year of the Boyle era -- in the midst of a full-on rebuild.

Kyrie Irving, PG, Fr., Duke
Likely draft position: Top three


Breakdown: Now this is a no-brainer. Sure, for much of the season, as Irving rehabbed his freakishly injured toe and missed all but 11 of his team's games, Duke faithful held out hope that their star point guard would return for another season and make good on the flashes of brilliance he displayed during his limited run in Durham. But few Blue Devils fans could begrudge Irving his decision. After all, he's still the likely favorite to be selected No. 1 overall in June. Frankly, Irving's stock has nowhere to go but down. When NBA scouts are drooling that much, you don't go back to school no matter how many games you play as a freshman.

What it means for his team: Hopeful Duke fans were salivating at the notion of Irving's return, which would have teamed the star with friend and fellow top point guard prospect Austin Rivers in 2011-12. The mere idea of that backcourt is enough to inspire nightmares among Coach K's ACC brethren. Fortunately for those coaches, it isn't happening. But with Rivers -- who could very well end up as the NBA's No. 1 overall pick next year -- arriving as part of an excellent recruiting class, Duke will again be one of the top teams in the country.

Kawhi Leonard, F, So., San Diego State
Likely draft position: Lottery


Breakdown: Much like his team -- which began the 2010-11 season as an intriguing Mountain West favorite and ended it as a No. 2 seed and Final Four contender -- Leonard spent his season going from relative national unknown to household name in a matter of five months. That status means it's time to get in the draft now, a decision made more appealing with the knowledge that fellow highly touted, versatile forwards Harrison Barnes and Perry Jones, who would have been ranked higher than Leonard on every NBA general manager's draft board, chose not to enter the draft. Leonard is an interesting NBA fit. His jumper isn't great and his offensive game can be shaky, but he is a truly gifted athlete and a great rebounder who could theoretically play at the 2, 3 or 4 spots in the NBA.

What it means for his team: San Diego State may not take as big a step back as you'd expect at first glance -- there is still some quality talent in Steve Fisher's stable -- but the loss of Leonard, in addition to the departures of seniors Malcolm Thomas and D.J. Gay, among others, will ensure the Aztecs look much different (and not nearly as scary) next season.

Kemba Walker, PG, Jr., UConn
Likely position: Lottery


Breakdown: In many ways, Walker's end-to-end stardom -- from his magic show in the Maui Invitational to his national championship coronation in Houston -- was the story of the 2010-11 college basketball season. It's no shock, then, that he'll cap it off by entering the NBA draft. Even though his ideal position is shooting guard, Walker is perhaps generously listed at 6-foot-1, which means he'll almost certainly have to play point guard in the NBA. In other words, he'll have to become a much better passer -- arguably the weakest part of Walker's game right now -- to be an impact player at the next level. Still, Walker is one of the best pure scorers and perimeter defenders in the draft, and he's striking while the iron is incredibly hot.

What it means for his team: The national champs will obviously miss their do-everything star, but Jim Calhoun does have his three best non-Kemba players -- Jeremy Lamb, Shabazz Napier and Alex Oriakhi -- set to make even greater individual leaps next season. He also has promising freshman guard Ryan Boatright arriving in the fall. The Huskies might not have their star, but they'll be an intriguing force in the Big East all the same.

Derrick Williams, F, So., Arizona
Likely position: Top three


Breakdown: Williams is the reason why your favorite school's low recruiting rankings might not necessarily be the worst news in the world. He wasn't listed among the top 150 recruits in the 2009 class, but by his sophomore year -- which included a monstrous performance in Arizona's Sweet 16 domination of top-seeded Duke -- Williams had morphed into one of the most ruthlessly efficient scorers and rebounders in the college game. He might be something of a tweener forward at the next level, but he already has an effective outside shot (he averaged 57 percent from beyond the arc in 2010-11) to pair with his low-post scoring. His prospective draft position as a possible No. 1 overall pick reflects that unique blend of skill.

What it means for his team: No one likes to lose a player as good as Williams, but it's a testament to the increasing strength of Sean Miller's program -- which will add the No. 7-ranked recruiting class in the country alongside MoMo Jones, Solomon Hill and others -- that many still see the Wildcats as a Pac-12 contender without their efficient forward.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#1566 » by 5DOM » Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:24 am

I've only watched 1 full game of Alec Burks, but from little of what I've seen and lot of what I've heard, he looks like a fantastic prospect. I'd be surprised if someone with his skill set flops in the NBA.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#1567 » by marcwagz » Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:32 am

why does espn seem so sure that we draft williams over irving... :roll:
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#1568 » by TDotRep » Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:43 am

5DOM wrote:
TDotRep wrote:Yes less than 2 years ago kanter did take it to val. Jonas previously had a 37/19 game and scored 20 or more in 5/8 games before posting 14/5 on kanter but that was than.

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Show me the difference from the kid who got handled like a puppet from a 2009 skinnier shorter kanter to now.


So you are using two highlight vids to see how much improvement a player has shown?
First video isn't even when Valanciunas faced Kanter - who didn't play in the U18 tourney last year - and you have to remember the second vid of him is against Euroleague competition. While Kanter was playing basketball on his xbox, Valanciunas has proven himself as one of the best young European players (3rd in the Young Player's Award behind Vesely and Rubio who most say didn't deserve the 2nd place over Valanciunas)


Show me a video of a game were he has improve as significant as your making it out to be, and by playing xbox you mean fully practicing and showing up at every game. He played about as much xbox as the average player on kentucky. And yes im using two videos because i'm not gonna post 15 videos on a thread, again show me a video in 2009 and now showing me his improvement. That just shows you if Val is considered one of the top bigs in europe, and kanter was able to score 35 and grab 19 boards on him imagine what a 6"11 maybe taller 260 pound version of kanter could do. It would be embarrassing.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#1569 » by 5DOM » Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:59 am

You are assuming that Kanter's made the same amount of improvement Valanciunas has made. Some players develop more quickly than others, especially guys like Kanter who always had a more developed body for his age. Kanter might have made a huge improvement himself, but who knows? He hasn't played a competitive game in more than a year. As for the improvements Valanciunas made, read Draft Express. They well documented Valanciunas' progress.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#1570 » by TDotRep » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:03 am

5DOM wrote:You are assuming that Kanter's made the same amount of improvement Valanciunas has made. Some players develop more quickly than others, especially guys like Kanter who always had a more developed body for his age. Kanter might have made a huge improvement himself, but who knows? He hasn't played a competitive game in more than a year. As for the improvements Valanciunas made, read Draft Express. They well documented Valanciunas' progress.


Again show me this "improvement" your basing it off stuff read show me, I've seen many games from him 2 years ago and him now and no real dd improvement, you say hes made show me if your solely basing it off something you have read than you have no argument.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#1571 » by Reignman » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:05 am

People are really knocking Kanter's skillset. Very few bigs come with drop steps, pivot moves and counters in the post.

you can't knock the guy for developing those skills at a young age, in fact, it should be the reason you look at him very highly. And this applies defensively as well, the kid is advanced when it comes to rotations and understanding how to play D.

I'm still baffled that people find reasons to knock him. The only reason people should knock him is if they believe he's forgotten how to ball in the last year.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#1572 » by Silk Wilkes » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:07 am

Reignman wrote:People are really knocking Kanter's skillset. Very few bigs come with drop steps, pivot moves and counters in the post.

you can't knock the guy for developing those skills at a young age, in fact, it should be the reason you look at him very highly. And this applies defensively as well, the kid is advanced when it comes to rotations and understanding how to play D.

I'm still baffled that people find reasons to knock him. The only reason people should knock him is if they believe he's forgotten how to ball in the last year.


They just knock him because they don't want him. There's no reason to take shots at a guy for being a quick learner but it's the Raptors RealGM page; what did we expect?
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#1573 » by 5DOM » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:09 am

TDotRep wrote:
5DOM wrote:You are assuming that Kanter's made the same amount of improvement Valanciunas has made. Some players develop more quickly than others, especially guys like Kanter who always had a more developed body for his age. Kanter might have made a huge improvement himself, but who knows? He hasn't played a competitive game in more than a year. As for the improvements Valanciunas made, read Draft Express. They well documented Valanciunas' progress.


Again show me this "improvement" your basing it off stuff read show me, I've seen many games from him 2 years ago and him now and no real dd improvement, you say hes made show me if your solely basing it off something you have read than you have no argument.


How do I have no argument when someone much more qualified than either one of us with more than necessary resources has already done the job for me? :roll:
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#1574 » by 5DOM » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:11 am

Reignman wrote:People are really knocking Kanter's skillset. Very few bigs come with drop steps, pivot moves and counters in the post.

you can't knock the guy for developing those skills at a young age, in fact, it should be the reason you look at him very highly. And this applies defensively as well, the kid is advanced when it comes to rotations and understanding how to play D.

I'm still baffled that people find reasons to knock him. The only reason people should knock him is if they believe he's forgotten how to ball in the last year.


or if they believe he hasn't played a single game against a decent competition.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#1575 » by Silk Wilkes » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:13 am

5DOM wrote:
Reignman wrote:People are really knocking Kanter's skillset. Very few bigs come with drop steps, pivot moves and counters in the post.

you can't knock the guy for developing those skills at a young age, in fact, it should be the reason you look at him very highly. And this applies defensively as well, the kid is advanced when it comes to rotations and understanding how to play D.

I'm still baffled that people find reasons to knock him. The only reason people should knock him is if they believe he's forgotten how to ball in the last year.


or if they believe he hasn't played a single game against a decent competition.


How are the top American players at the same age not decent competition? :roll:
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#1576 » by 5DOM » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:18 am

Youngblood wrote:
5DOM wrote:
Reignman wrote:People are really knocking Kanter's skillset. Very few bigs come with drop steps, pivot moves and counters in the post.

you can't knock the guy for developing those skills at a young age, in fact, it should be the reason you look at him very highly. And this applies defensively as well, the kid is advanced when it comes to rotations and understanding how to play D.

I'm still baffled that people find reasons to knock him. The only reason people should knock him is if they believe he's forgotten how to ball in the last year.


or if they believe he hasn't played a single game against a decent competition.


How are the top American players at the same age not decent competition? :roll:


1) It was an All Star game
2) He faced Jared Sullinger who is not going to be a C in the NBA
3) Jared Sullinger is a bad defender
4) Jared Sullinger himself scored 22 points on 14 shots that day.

And you know who these top American players are?
The same players you and I think are going to make this the worst draft class in a decade.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#1577 » by dagger » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:19 am

Youngblood wrote:
5DOM wrote:
Reignman wrote:People are really knocking Kanter's skillset. Very few bigs come with drop steps, pivot moves and counters in the post.

you can't knock the guy for developing those skills at a young age, in fact, it should be the reason you look at him very highly. And this applies defensively as well, the kid is advanced when it comes to rotations and understanding how to play D.

I'm still baffled that people find reasons to knock him. The only reason people should knock him is if they believe he's forgotten how to ball in the last year.


or if they believe he hasn't played a single game against a decent competition.


How are the top American players at the same age not decent competition? :roll:



You mean in an all-star game against high schoolers? I like Kanter, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. I am concerned Kanter has lost a year and more of his development. There is no substitute for real competition.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#1578 » by Silk Wilkes » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:22 am

All I gotta say is: the cream rises to the top.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#1579 » by 5DOM » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:27 am

Reignman wrote:People are really knocking Kanter's skillset. Very few bigs come with drop steps, pivot moves and counters in the post.

you can't knock the guy for developing those skills at a young age, in fact, it should be the reason you look at him very highly. And this applies defensively as well, the kid is advanced when it comes to rotations and understanding how to play D.

I'm still baffled that people find reasons to knock him. The only reason people should knock him is if they believe he's forgotten how to ball in the last year.


Of course it's a good thing that Kanter's game is advanced. But the question is how he'll be able to play when everyone else catches up to him eventually or rather simply when he faces another advanced player. That's why the fact that he hasn't faced any real competition is even more concerning.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7 

Post#1580 » by TDotRep » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:36 am

That is true but you can maker an argument saying he was competing all year in practice whether it be in one on one situations or scrimmages against better competition that what he would be facing in an actual game. When a kid could develop his offense that well at a young age that shows his understanding of the game. You can't really say the same for andrea because he is talented but scores usually by shooting over the defender, doesn't use his brain to score often.

As for Jonas, all draft express is harping on is his potential. He and the writer admitted that he wasn't the smartest or most skill player right now.

-----From DX-----

“I don't have very good skills right now, many good moves, so I have to fight,” he tells us.

Valanciunas also gets some opportunities from time to time in post-up situations, an area that he's not nearly as proficient. He lacks the girth to establish deep position inside the paint at the Euroleague level, even if that doesn't stop him from trying.

He needs to work on his left hand and get quicker and more proficient with his foot-work and counter moves, as he doesn't look terribly natural creating his own shot down low.

With that said, he's not the smartest, most reactive player you'll find right now, especially on the perimeter, which can lead to some poor rotations and open shots for opponents.

Inside the paint, Valanciunas is a frequent target for opposing teams to post up due to his narrow frame and lack of experience, especially in the Euroleague, where almost every team has a bulky old school back-to-the-basket pivot who can simply overpower Valanciunas in one-on-one situations.

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