Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7

[TDotRep]

Yea that was 4 months ago.

[5DOM]

If you are looking for the part where they talk about his improvement, it starts from "All Valanciunas has done since is continue to improve steadily every time we've seen him...." and continues for a few paragraphs.

Regarding Valanciunas' current weaknesses, I think most of them are fixable - the easiest solution to his biggest problem being adding weight. I doubt Valanciunas ever develops an offensive game as versatile and polished as Kanter's, but I think the potential to be decent contributor offensively is there.

[fredericklove]

People are really knocking Kanter's skillset. Very few bigs come with drop steps, pivot moves and counters in the post.

you can't knock the guy for developing those skills at a young age, in fact, it should be the reason you look at him very highly. And this applies defensively as well, the kid is advanced when it comes to rotations and understanding how to play D.

I'm still baffled that people find reasons to knock him. The only reason people should knock him is if they believe he's forgotten how to ball in the last year.

They just knock him because they don't want him. There's no reason to take shots at a guy for being a quick learner but it's the Raptors RealGM page; what did we expect?

It's ok guys, Kanter will prove everyone why he's worthy of the 3rd pick in the draft. Just let those people overhype the most mysterious man in the universe it's their freedom to do so they can do whatever silly things they want. We know Kanter is a beast, IN KANTER WE TRUST!!

[OhCanada]

I obviously don't know the reason behind this because I simply don't follow European basketball, but it seems like most youngsters don't get much minutes. Ricky Rubio at the time of the draft averaged 20 mins a game, but no one thought he would go to the D-League if he came here. Serge Ibaka, who Biyombo is likened to, averaged 16 mins a game, and he's playing just fine for one of the best teams in the NBA. Just a couple of days ago, he had a 22points, 16rebounds, 4blks game. Biyombo's not as skilled as Ibaka offensively, but they had very similar numbers in the ACB with Biyombo's block numbers being significantly better than Ibaka's. Valanciunas averages 15 minutes a game (in the Euroleague though), but do you expect him spend his first two years in the D-League? Even Beaubois who averaged 22MPG in the French league is getting minutes at Dallas.

The reason they dont get minutes is because that is how you effectively develop young players. You dont throw them out into the ifre and allow them to gain nice stats and praise while they make young mistakes. You play the players that help your team the most. He turns the ball over at a rate of 1.6-turnovers per 6-points. He isnt even supposed to be putting the ball in the basket unless its a drop off, or offensive rebound, thats not his job yet he turns the ball over at such a high rate you would think he is the starting PG, or number 1 option.

As for his playing time on the court. He gets 2-fouls every 17-minutes. That is not elite defense. Elite stoppers like he is suggested to be dont do that ever. Any player doing that is not elite but falsely advertised. He will have worse foul issues then Amir Johnson ever had.

You think coaches like to see him running around out of position, fouling, turning the ball over. No they want to see a player who can consistantly play the role expected upon them. Thats why he doesnt get bigtime minutes. Only in the NBA is this different, the NBA is the only league where players get praised for high amounts of blocks, and steals, dunks, athletisism and highlight plays because it is a league based on excitement and money. They bring the best players, the most athletic, versatile players in.

That also mentions Rubio, Valanciunas, Beabois, and Ibaka.

Rubio was a teen who blazed through any competition with players his own age. He had playmaking abillity that was never seen at that level that young. His jumper needed work and was expected to improve. He was a potential pick at #6, people thought that part of his game would get better with time. Yet he is still just shooting 30%from the field and 20% from 3. Thats why he only played 20-mpg..

Valanciunas isa very good player, he was getting good run until the coaching staff changed I think, and the new staff really haulted his progresssion for no apparent reason. Although he is very foul prone, and makes many young mistakes he should be getting more minutes because he is proven to have skill and bring a tough intensity at a nice rate while maintaing good position on the floor.

Roddy B s not seeing minutes in Dallas thats a lie. he has had 5-minutes all playoffs.They say he has an ankle injury but they have also reported he is feeling better and sprinting, so which one is it. He averaged about 15-mpg in his sophmore season, is a 6'2 shooting gaurd who poses no defensive threat to opposing teams, and although he is a very good scorer he isnt a good all around player.

Ibaka s a very good pllayer but to be fair he had all the skills, Biyambo doesnt have skills he has athletisism and a good body. Ibaka had skill that was unpolished. Good form on his jumper, good footwork, good touch, good timing, etc. Comparing Ibaka to Biyambo is like comparing apples to oranges. They are very different players, its boarderline rascist that they are even compared to eachother.

[5DOM]

People are really knocking Kanter's skillset. Very few bigs come with drop steps, pivot moves and counters in the post.

you can't knock the guy for developing those skills at a young age, in fact, it should be the reason you look at him very highly. And this applies defensively as well, the kid is advanced when it comes to rotations and understanding how to play D.

I'm still baffled that people find reasons to knock him. The only reason people should knock him is if they believe he's forgotten how to ball in the last year.

They just knock him because they don't want him. There's no reason to take shots at a guy for being a quick learner but it's the Raptors RealGM page; what did we expect?

It's ok guys, Kanter will prove everyone why he's worthy of the 3rd pick in the draft. Just let those people overhype the most mysterious man in the universe it's their freedom to do so they can do whatever silly things they want. We know Kanter is a beast, IN KANTER WE TRUST!!

Yo Wham, I think you meant this guy when you said

It's interesting how some here are pushing their choice like they would a political candidate, just repeating themselves over and over without saying much of substance, and ridiculing those with differing opinions. As if being louder and more abrasive lends your opinion more credibility, or has some sort of impact on who our pick will actually be. Not naming or even thinking of names, this is just the general vibe I get.

Seriously, I felt like we were having a discussion.

[OhCanada]

[/quote]

1) It was an All Star game
2) He faced Jared Sullinger who is not going to be a C in the NBA
3) Jared Sullinger is a bad defender
4) Jared Sullinger himself scored 22 points on 14 shots that day.

And you know who these top American players are?
The same players you and I think are going to make this the worst draft class in a decade.[/quote]

Lol so what. Biyambo was gaurding Davis and Davis went off that day not to mention he is 25 pounds lighter then Biyambo. Kanter and sullinger were the same size when that game happened. And saying he scored 22-pt himself is like saying yeah so what Howard outscored Horford 40 to 20 but Horford scored 20 on Howard.

[OhCanada]

Fail

[fredericklove]

Right right, this comes from a guy who tries to make a political statement from his sig. Good job, it's loud and clear and sure gives a lot of credibility here. Just like how accusing someone making an assumption when he himself is making one at the same time.

[TDotRep]

If you are looking for the part where they talk about his improvement, it starts from "All Valanciunas has done since is continue to improve steadily every time we've seen him...." and continues for a few paragraphs.

Regarding Valanciunas' current weaknesses, I think most of them are fixable - the easiest solution to his biggest problem being adding weight. I doubt Valanciunas ever develops an offensive game as versatile and polished as Kanter's, but I think the potential to be decent contributor offensively is there.

They don't mention one aspect of his game he has improved on, those paragraphs are stating his improvement in accomplishments from when he first starting playing basketball.

All Valanciunas has done since is continue to improve steadily every time we've seen him. There he was in the U-18 European Championships in Metz in the summer of 2009, going up against arch-rival Enes Kanter in a pair of epic matchups that frequently get mentioned by NBA scouts as pivotal moments in their evaluations. 19.3 points, 10.6 rebounds, 2.6 blocks, on 72% FG and 79% FT were the final tallies in France.

And there he was again in the Under-18s the following summer, helping Lithuania win the European Championship and hoisting the tournament MVP trophy after averaging 19.4 points (70% FG, 78% FT), 13.4 rebounds and 2.7 blocks.

In between, Valanciunas has continued to progress from year to year on the club level, starting in hometown Utena in the Lithuanian third division, then moving to Perlas Vilnius in the second division and later to Lietuvos Rytas in the first division.

This year, he is competing in the highest level of European basketball in the Euroleague as well, and ranks as one of the top players in the competition on a per-40 minute basis in points (21.8), rebounds (13.6), blocks (1.8), field goal percentage (74.4%), free throw percentage (87.5%), and fouls (9.1). That's quite an accomplishment for a skinny 18-year-old.

The natural question to ask would be—“Where will it end?” The answer to which seems quite obvious: shaking David Stern's hand at the NBA Draft.


Notice how they say where will the improvements end at the nba draft?

So your argument is that he has done these things. That means he has improved drastically, but no evidence to prove that he has improved his game.

[Silk Wilkes]

Yo Wham, I think you meant this guy when you said

It's interesting how some here are pushing their choice like they would a political candidate, just repeating themselves over and over without saying much of substance, and ridiculing those with differing opinions. As if being louder and more abrasive lends your opinion more credibility, or has some sort of impact on who our pick will actually be. Not naming or even thinking of names, this is just the general vibe I get.

Seriously, I felt like we were having a discussion.

Why don't you actually read the posts? Frederick hasn't been pushing anyone except for Harrison Barnes who's now gone. You're the one shoving Bismack Biyombo down people's throats.

[5DOM]

I obviously don't know the reason behind this because I simply don't follow European basketball, but it seems like most youngsters don't get much minutes. Ricky Rubio at the time of the draft averaged 20 mins a game, but no one thought he would go to the D-League if he came here. Serge Ibaka, who Biyombo is likened to, averaged 16 mins a game, and he's playing just fine for one of the best teams in the NBA. Just a couple of days ago, he had a 22points, 16rebounds, 4blks game. Biyombo's not as skilled as Ibaka offensively, but they had very similar numbers in the ACB with Biyombo's block numbers being significantly better than Ibaka's. Valanciunas averages 15 minutes a game (in the Euroleague though), but do you expect him spend his first two years in the D-League? Even Beaubois who averaged 22MPG in the French league is getting minutes at Dallas.

The reason they dont get minutes is because that is how you effectively develop young players. You dont throw them out into the ifre and allow them to gain nice stats and praise while they make young mistakes. You play the players that help your team the most. He turns the ball over at a rate of 1.6-turnovers per 6-points. He isnt even supposed to be putting the ball in the basket unless its a drop off, or offensive rebound, thats not his job yet he turns the ball over at such a high rate you would think he is the starting PG, or number 1 option.

I do agree with you that high turnover % is a concern and something that needs to be corrected, but I suspect it will be corrected to an extent considering he's still learning.

As for his playing time on the court. He gets 2-fouls every 17-minutes. That is not elite defense. Elite stoppers like he is suggested to be dont do that ever. Any player doing that is not elite but falsely advertised. He will have worse foul issues then Amir Johnson ever had.

Give me a break. He's an 18 y/o kid. Of course he'll foul here and there. Besides, 2 fouls every 17 minutes is hardly much worse than Ibaka's number and 22 y/o Marc Gasol's number when they played in ACB.

You think coaches like to see him running around out of position, fouling, turning the ball over. No they want to see a player who can consistantly play the role expected upon them. Thats why he doesnt get bigtime minutes. Only in the NBA is this different, the NBA is the only league where players get praised for high amounts of blocks, and steals, dunks, athletisism and highlight plays because it is a league based on excitement and money. They bring the best players, the most athletic, versatile players in.

It's a good thing that we are talking about NBA potential here then.

Rubio was a teen who blazed through any competition with players his own age. He had playmaking abillity that was never seen at that level that young. His jumper needed work and was expected to improve. He was a potential pick at #6, people thought that part of his game would get better with time. Yet he is still just shooting 30%from the field and 20% from 3. Thats why he only played 20-mpg.

Rubio wouldn't have gone to the NBDL.

Roddy B s not seeing minutes in Dallas thats a lie. he has had 5-minutes all playoffs.They say he has an ankle injury but they have also reported he is feeling better and sprinting, so which one is it. He averaged about 15-mpg in his sophmore season, is a 6'2 shooting gaurd who poses no defensive threat to opposing teams, and although he is a very good scorer he isnt a good all around player.

15 mpg IS seeing minutes. And remember, I only used these guys as examples of International players with non significant minutes in their Euro league who didn't play in the NBDL for 2 years.

[5DOM]

Yo Wham, I think you meant this guy when you said

It's interesting how some here are pushing their choice like they would a political candidate, just repeating themselves over and over without saying much of substance, and ridiculing those with differing opinions. As if being louder and more abrasive lends your opinion more credibility, or has some sort of impact on who our pick will actually be. Not naming or even thinking of names, this is just the general vibe I get.

Seriously, I felt like we were having a discussion.

Why don't you actually read the posts? Frederick hasn't been pushing anyone except for Harrison Barnes who's now gone. You're the one shoving Bismack Biyombo down people's throats.

I'm "arguing". I raised some points. More often than not, he doesn't say anything other than "BLACK FALCON!!!", "KYRIE IRVING!!", "KANTER WILL BE GREAT"

[Strategist1]

OhCanada...you make it seem like Biyombo is supposed to be a finished product. How many 18 year olds play in the ACB, especially Big men?

Biyombo went from his team's junior division into the senior team within a year. His spanish team saw what he provided and decided that they no longer needed another Centre. That says a lot.

Biyombo has only started playing organized basketball since he was 14. But to hold that against him, is a mistake. Basically because he seems to have the hunger to really get better. He also shows leadership qualities and is very vocal on the court.

"He stood out as the most vocal players on the International team over the course of the week at the Nike Hoop Summit, assuming a position of leadership almost immediately upon arrival. You would often see him having tactical discussions between plays with the coaching staff, and he was quick to take teammates aside and explain the nuances of a play to them when something got lost in translation.

These are all incredibly atypical qualities compared to other African prospects we've evaluated in the past."

From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Bis ... z1Kb2B1hDn
http://www.draftexpress.com

No one can deny his physical attributes. Its his attitude/leadership qualities that make him even more of an intriguing prospect. This separates him from past athletic busts.

[5DOM]

If you are looking for the part where they talk about his improvement, it starts from "All Valanciunas has done since is continue to improve steadily every time we've seen him...." and continues for a few paragraphs.

Regarding Valanciunas' current weaknesses, I think most of them are fixable - the easiest solution to his biggest problem being adding weight. I doubt Valanciunas ever develops an offensive game as versatile and polished as Kanter's, but I think the potential to be decent contributor offensively is there.

They don't mention one aspect of his game he has improved on, those paragraphs are stating his improvement in accomplishments from when he first starting playing basketball.

All Valanciunas has done since is continue to improve steadily every time we've seen him. There he was in the U-18 European Championships in Metz in the summer of 2009, going up against arch-rival Enes Kanter in a pair of epic matchups that frequently get mentioned by NBA scouts as pivotal moments in their evaluations. 19.3 points, 10.6 rebounds, 2.6 blocks, on 72% FG and 79% FT were the final tallies in France.

And there he was again in the Under-18s the following summer, helping Lithuania win the European Championship and hoisting the tournament MVP trophy after averaging 19.4 points (70% FG, 78% FT), 13.4 rebounds and 2.7 blocks.

In between, Valanciunas has continued to progress from year to year on the club level, starting in hometown Utena in the Lithuanian third division, then moving to Perlas Vilnius in the second division and later to Lietuvos Rytas in the first division.

This year, he is competing in the highest level of European basketball in the Euroleague as well, and ranks as one of the top players in the competition on a per-40 minute basis in points (21.8), rebounds (13.6), blocks (1.8), field goal percentage (74.4%), free throw percentage (87.5%), and fouls (9.1). That's quite an accomplishment for a skinny 18-year-old.

The natural question to ask would be—“Where will it end?” The answer to which seems quite obvious: shaking David Stern's hand at the NBA Draft.


Notice how they say where will the improvements end at the nba draft?

And playing against better and better competition is an improvement?
He's AT LEAST improved his existing skills.

[5DOM]

Right right, this comes from a guy who tries to make a political statement from his sig. Good job, it's loud and clear and sure gives a lot of credibility here. Just like how accusing someone making an assumption when he himself is making one at the same time.

I only did it because James Naismith kept saying I should.
And of course everyone's assuming here. My point has always been that it's harder to "assume" when it comes to Enes Kanter.

[TDotRep]

How do you know he has improved his existing skills, from what I've seen the kid looks the same as he did when he was 17. Please show me something that is proof he has improved his skills.

[Brinbe]

When do workouts start?

[fredericklove]

Why don't you actually read the posts? Frederick hasn't been pushing anyone except for Harrison Barnes who's now gone. You're the one shoving Bismack Biyombo down people's throats.

I'm "arguing". I raised some points. More often than not, he doesn't say anything other than "BLACK FALCON!!!", "KYRIE IRVING!!", "KANTER WILL BE GREAT"

The Black Falcon is his nickname, just like how I always say DWill instead of Derrick Williams. Is it wrong to say his nickname? At least I'm not ridiculous to the point where I go around praising a guy to a 4 time DPY. If I want to join that kind of club I might as well compare The Black Falcon to Kobe.

[HSOB SIRHC]

Can someone explain to me why Biyombo is being compared to Ibaka so much? There are tons of athletic big men in the NBA so why Ibaka? Surely it can't be because they're both from Congo...That would be silly.

[Silk Wilkes]

Can someone explain to me why Biyombo is being compared to Ibaka so much? There are tons of athletic big men in the NBA so why Ibaka? Surely it can't be because they're both from Congo...That would be silly.

Don't ask a question you know the answer to