Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 8

[MiamiSPX]

Not sure why some feel that constantly saying "he will never be a #1" is some sort of big gotcha moment. Even his biggest fans have come to that realization (now).

Has Masai come out and said we are no longer looking for that 1st option because we feel we have one? Lol, no, in fact he has said the opposite if anyone is listening. We are still looking for that "top guy on a contender" like 24 other teams in the league. This is why our FO seems to be guiding the tank along this year and Masai has been scouting the guys at the top of the draft.

I don't see much #1 option discussion, it's more whether he can be a #2 option on a contending team. Current skillset and projection has him looking more like a #3 maybe #4 IMO. The development of an elite mid range game which we see some small signs of might get him to a #2.

Meh, hard to predict where he would slot in on a contender and none of us know for sure. We have never been a contender with him, and really have only been a good team one year during his tenure. I think the only thing that is certain at this point is that he won't be "THAT guy". He still projects to be a really damn good player.

You would have been hard-pressed to see/hear anyone in basketball circles call Siakam, Jamal Murray or Middleton a true #2 option on a contender in the respective years they won the title. And yet they won as the "2nd guy" because in each case the #1 guy was arguably the best player in the world at the time.

We need a superstar, simple as that. I'll worry about Scottie's slot once we have that star. And while some think it's asinine to hope we get one in this upcoming draft, it's all we have at this moment.

[tsherkin]

Never compared their compete levels but Westbrook is a guy who put up crazy ungodly numbers but was never a good shooter who had a questionable shot selection and just never had the BBALL IQ to be a true game changer.

He proved he couldn't even be a 3rd man on a championship team. James Harden is another guy who puts up crazy stats hell both him and Westbrook are all over the NBA All-Time stat leaders yet aren't good enough to be a 3rd man on a championship team.

The fine line between true star players that you can win with is so thin. Some of the mental mistakes Barnes makes in year 4 are big red flags. Like others I used to hope it was just youth and learning mistakes but I admit there is something mentally wrong with him or there is some sort of mental issue and there is no cure for that.

Yeah, Westbrook isn't a particularly good comparison. He's a monster as a shot creator, and even at his age, a wild athlete. HIs problem is that he's incompetent at finishing more than 3 feet from the basket and has somehow lost the ability to shoot FTs. But he still puts up significant rim pressure and can get to the rim quite effectively. His shot proportion inside the RA is over 34% on his career, was almost 39% last year and is over 35% this season at the age of 36 (obviously on reduced volume). He does a lot of things pretty well. His issues are that he doesn't have a middle throttle setting, has no range and is a bit stupid. But he has huge energy and go-go-gos pretty much any time he's on the court. I don't think he and Scottie have much in common other than the idea that they're both inefficient scorers and above-average (or better) playmakers).

[canz55]

I think the only thing that is certain at this point is that he won't be "THAT guy".

With respect, you're simply not in a position to definitively claim if Scottie is THAT guy or not.

At best this thread is reactionary based on a season that has amounted to nothing worthy of note. Replace Scottie with literally any other player his age in the NBA of your choosing with the same number of missed games and we'd be more or less where we are now i.e rebuilding.

[Vampirate]

This is very much a "If my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a bike" territory. Yes, if he was shooting better, then his efficiency would be better. But he's not, and it isn't.

So until we start seeing that take place, it's kind of a pointless argument. We definitely should see him skew in that direction, but just cause he should, doesn't mean he will.



But that's literally the point, you can't say he has a bag, if he never shows it. No one credits Demar or Kahwi as incredible mid range shooters based off them doing it like 30-50 times a season, they get their rep cause they do it multiple times a game, every single game.

Some guy hitting a half court shot at the half time show isn't an incredible 3pt shooter who just isn't showing it. Why ask "why doesn't he show it more" and rather, "maybe he doesn't show it more, cause he doesn't have it."

One of those is a hell of a lot more logical after nigh on 4 years in the league. Scottie can have those "in his bag", eventually. But as of now, he doesn't.

He clearly has a bag. It’s one thing to hit a half court heave which probably has a make percentage of 1-3 percent (idk just guessing there probably is an actual number out there), and another to say someone can’t dribble the ball and create offense for themselves when they show they can literally every game. Sure he isn’t coming down like Kyrie or Shai and dribbling the air out of the ball every possession but to say he has no bag is wrong.

I guess it really boils down to the definition of what a "bag" is. MJ for instance clearly had a fadeaway jumper in his bag (amongst other things obviously), and you could make this argument because as I said before, he did it multiple times a game, every game.

If we want to argue that what Scottie has in his bag, is the ability to pass and find teammates that most other players can't, I agree. But I think most people consider an offensive move that results in a point, or something extremely specific like AI and his absurd crossover skills.

Nothing in Scotties repertoire fits that category. He doesn't have a go to offensive move, he doesn't have the ball on a string, he doesn't have a spin move like Siakam, he doesn't have a 3pt shot, he really doesn't have much of anything in his game that is consistently repeatable, and most importantly, reliable. And to me that's what "having a bag" means, could just be my interpretation obviously, but I feel like that is the general understanding.

What consistent, repeatable, and reliable skill or move does he have? My gut would tell me his back to the basket game, but that fails the first and second categories. I'm not saying you are wrong, I just don't see anything that I would be confident saying is a skill or "move" he has in his bag.

I wouldn't say he has it to the point where it's unstoppable, but he clearly has a turnaround J (he attempts at least 1 every game I think). Most other things are a work in progress. The issue with him on this one is just getting to his spot (and not becoming predictable).

Watch on YouTube

In the video he used it 4 times and at 2:55 He got Jonathan Isaac jumping with a fake turnaround J.

His 'bag' is a WIP still but there's some good signs. I like that sudden Jab step into a 3 at 4:05.

Next time you watch him, count how many times he uses it.

[Scase]

He clearly has a bag. It’s one thing to hit a half court heave which probably has a make percentage of 1-3 percent (idk just guessing there probably is an actual number out there), and another to say someone can’t dribble the ball and create offense for themselves when they show they can literally every game. Sure he isn’t coming down like Kyrie or Shai and dribbling the air out of the ball every possession but to say he has no bag is wrong.

I guess it really boils down to the definition of what a "bag" is. MJ for instance clearly had a fadeaway jumper in his bag (amongst other things obviously), and you could make this argument because as I said before, he did it multiple times a game, every game.

If we want to argue that what Scottie has in his bag, is the ability to pass and find teammates that most other players can't, I agree. But I think most people consider an offensive move that results in a point, or something extremely specific like AI and his absurd crossover skills.

Nothing in Scotties repertoire fits that category. He doesn't have a go to offensive move, he doesn't have the ball on a string, he doesn't have a spin move like Siakam, he doesn't have a 3pt shot, he really doesn't have much of anything in his game that is consistently repeatable, and most importantly, reliable. And to me that's what "having a bag" means, could just be my interpretation obviously, but I feel like that is the general understanding.

What consistent, repeatable, and reliable skill or move does he have? My gut would tell me his back to the basket game, but that fails the first and second categories. I'm not saying you are wrong, I just don't see anything that I would be confident saying is a skill or "move" he has in his bag.

I wouldn't say he has it to the point where it's unstoppable, but he clearly has a turnaround J (he attempts at least 1 every game I think). Most other things are a work in progress. The issue with him on this one is just getting to his spot (and not becoming predictable).

Watch on YouTube

In the video he used it 4 times and at 2:55 He got Jonathan Isaac jumping with a fake turnaround J.

His 'bag' is a WIP still but there's some good signs. I like that sudden Jab step into a 3 at 4:05.

Next time you watch him, count how many times he uses it.

This is exactly what I mean though, he definitely has moves that could be "in his bag" but he doesn't use them often enough or successfully enough to say that he has them "in his bag". I just think it's premature to say he has anything that fits that criteria at the present time.

[Indeed]

I guess it really boils down to the definition of what a "bag" is. MJ for instance clearly had a fadeaway jumper in his bag (amongst other things obviously), and you could make this argument because as I said before, he did it multiple times a game, every game.

If we want to argue that what Scottie has in his bag, is the ability to pass and find teammates that most other players can't, I agree. But I think most people consider an offensive move that results in a point, or something extremely specific like AI and his absurd crossover skills.

Nothing in Scotties repertoire fits that category. He doesn't have a go to offensive move, he doesn't have the ball on a string, he doesn't have a spin move like Siakam, he doesn't have a 3pt shot, he really doesn't have much of anything in his game that is consistently repeatable, and most importantly, reliable. And to me that's what "having a bag" means, could just be my interpretation obviously, but I feel like that is the general understanding.

What consistent, repeatable, and reliable skill or move does he have? My gut would tell me his back to the basket game, but that fails the first and second categories. I'm not saying you are wrong, I just don't see anything that I would be confident saying is a skill or "move" he has in his bag.

I wouldn't say he has it to the point where it's unstoppable, but he clearly has a turnaround J (he attempts at least 1 every game I think). Most other things are a work in progress. The issue with him on this one is just getting to his spot (and not becoming predictable).

Watch on YouTube

In the video he used it 4 times and at 2:55 He got Jonathan Isaac jumping with a fake turnaround J.

His 'bag' is a WIP still but there's some good signs. I like that sudden Jab step into a 3 at 4:05.

Next time you watch him, count how many times he uses it.

This is exactly what I mean though, he definitely has moves that could be "in his bag" but he doesn't use them often enough or successfully enough to say that he has them "in his bag". I just think it's premature to say he has anything that fits that criteria at the present time.

I don't even know I would call a fadeaway turnaround jump shot is a good shot.

Same as DeRozan on shooting his long 2 and back then people claimed those are efficient shots, which can be disappeared in the playoffs, no?

[Vampirate]

I wouldn't say he has it to the point where it's unstoppable, but he clearly has a turnaround J (he attempts at least 1 every game I think). Most other things are a work in progress. The issue with him on this one is just getting to his spot (and not becoming predictable).

Watch on YouTube

In the video he used it 4 times and at 2:55 He got Jonathan Isaac jumping with a fake turnaround J.

His 'bag' is a WIP still but there's some good signs. I like that sudden Jab step into a 3 at 4:05.

Next time you watch him, count how many times he uses it.

This is exactly what I mean though, he definitely has moves that could be "in his bag" but he doesn't use them often enough or successfully enough to say that he has them "in his bag". I just think it's premature to say he has anything that fits that criteria at the present time.

I don't even know I would call a fadeaway turnaround jump shot is a good shot.

Same as DeRozan on shooting his long 2 and back then people claimed those are efficient shots, which can be disappeared in the playoffs, no?

The best players make inefficient shots efficient.

Derozan just didn't have the tool physically to score well in a playoffs setting.

There was always someone bigger, stronger, faster and a better shooter.

[Scase]

I wouldn't say he has it to the point where it's unstoppable, but he clearly has a turnaround J (he attempts at least 1 every game I think). Most other things are a work in progress. The issue with him on this one is just getting to his spot (and not becoming predictable).

Watch on YouTube

In the video he used it 4 times and at 2:55 He got Jonathan Isaac jumping with a fake turnaround J.

His 'bag' is a WIP still but there's some good signs. I like that sudden Jab step into a 3 at 4:05.

Next time you watch him, count how many times he uses it.

This is exactly what I mean though, he definitely has moves that could be "in his bag" but he doesn't use them often enough or successfully enough to say that he has them "in his bag". I just think it's premature to say he has anything that fits that criteria at the present time.

I don't even know I would call a fadeaway turnaround jump shot is a good shot.

Same as DeRozan on shooting his long 2 and back then people claimed those are efficient shots, which can be disappeared in the playoffs, no?

Not a good shot when compared to a set shot for sure, but Scottie is 6'9 with a high release point on his shot, it would be hard to block even for someone like Wemby. The key is him hitting it at a good clip, which he will need to practice, and why I'm so against him taking so many ill advised 3's.

[mdenny]

Ayo...he's in his fourth year and he decides to do a wiggle dance on the sideline after knocking down a 3 instead of getting back when we we're down by 10.

I think it was hedo who threw a towel on demar's face when he was dancing during a timeout while we were losing.

You never saw demar in his 4th year doing a wiggle dance while we were losing.

Soft as hell. Baby-face chump always crying about something. We used to have real men on our team.

[HumbleRen]

Ayo...he's in his fourth year and he decides to do a wiggle dance on the sideline after knocking down a 3 instead of getting back when we we're down by 10.

I think it was hedo who threw a towel on demar's face when he was dancing during a timeout while we were losing.

You never saw demar in his 4th year doing a wiggle dance while we were losing.

Soft as hell. Baby-face chump always crying about something. We used to have real men on our team.

Who cares about that, I care about talent.

Demar being a professional’s professional doesn’t mean crap when he shat himself in every single playoff series. Him being serious and stoic didn’t save him from being the worst playoff dropper in NBA history according to advance numbers.

We need high end talent. Who cares if they dance or not. Scottie needs to figure out who he wants to be as an NBA player. That’s what I’m concerned with.

[bluerap23]

Ayo...he's in his fourth year and he decides to do a wiggle dance on the sideline after knocking down a 3 instead of getting back when we we're down by 10.

I think it was hedo who threw a towel on demar's face when he was dancing during a timeout while we were losing.

You never saw demar in his 4th year doing a wiggle dance while we were losing.

Soft as hell. Baby-face chump always crying about something. We used to have real men on our team.

Who cares about that, I care about talent.

Demar being a professional’s professional doesn’t mean crap when he shat himself in every single playoff series. Him being serious and stoic didn’t save him from being worst playoff dropper in NBA history according to advance numbers.

We need high end talent. Who cares if they dance or not. Scottie needs to figure out who he wants to be as an NBA player. That’s what I’m concerned with.

That dance was a little cringe but I agree it doesn't matter in the long run. They are trying to place more emphasis on the joy of basketball with this team because they think it will unlock something for Scottie. There was a lot of talk about how miserable he was in that first rough season when we were losing. I think bringing in IQ and Dick was also geared in that direction. This team is still so young and immature, we need to be patient. While you can't have it both ways - tank and success - this is the first time I've ever seen a team come close. I still believe Scottie has the talent to dominate most matchups (moreso than Kyle or DeMar) and he can make tough shots in crunch time. We won't really know until this team is ready to actually compete though.

[Tha Cynic]

Is the argument happening in this thread that we should trade away Scottie Barnes? Some of the detracting by the same posters after each bad game makes no sense. This team flat out sucks right now and Scottie Barnes is clearly not an elite scorer but he has shown since his rookie season that he’s a high impact player. In today’s NBA you cannot win without multiple guys who are great players unless you have the perfect team.

No **** we need more talent and if we get someone better than Scottie Barnes, even better. Clearly the front office is trying to tank for a very good pick this year. Scottie Barnes has also shown that he’s a guy you keep if you want to be a contender. This team badly needs an elite scorer who can also defend adequately and stay on the floor. You hope Scottie Barnes continues to develop his game where his offensive scoring skills get up to par with the rest of his game. We know he can get 20 without much of a bag.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Ayo...he's in his fourth year and he decides to do a wiggle dance on the sideline after knocking down a 3 instead of getting back when we we're down by 10.

I think it was hedo who threw a towel on demar's face when he was dancing during a timeout while we were losing.

You never saw demar in his 4th year doing a wiggle dance while we were losing.

Soft as hell. Baby-face chump always crying about something. We used to have real men on our team.

Who cares about that, I care about talent.

Demar being a professional’s professional doesn’t mean crap when he shat himself in every single playoff series. Him being serious and stoic didn’t save him from being worst playoff dropper in NBA history according to advance numbers.

We need high end talent. Who cares if they dance or not. Scottie needs to figure out who he wants to be as an NBA player. That’s what I’m concerned with.

That dance was a little cringe but I agree it doesn't matter in the long run. They are trying to place more emphasis on the joy of basketball with this team because they think it will unlock something for Scottie. There was a lot of talk about how miserable he was in that first rough season when we were losing. I think bringing in IQ and Dick was also geared in that direction. This team is still so young and immature, we need to be patient. While you can't have it both ways - tank and success - this is the first time I've ever seen a team come close. I still believe Scottie has the talent to dominate most matchups (moreso than Kyle or DeMar) and he can make tough shots in crunch time. We won't really know until this team is ready to actually compete though.

I think Scottie is maybe the worst type of player we've ever built around, and I concede that he's going to be one of the best Raptors of all time when all is said and done. One, because his game is a master-of-none style, where his strength is actually portability and not foundational. Two, because his personality is immature. Three, because his effort is inconsistent. Four, because his best strength is defensive versatility. Tagging on a scoring/creation burden is going to impact his energy on the defensive end.

And, the dance didn't bother me at all. It's been a part of his gameplay since the beginning, and it is immature but I can see how, on a winning team, his antics will get the better of other teams and their fanbases, much like Lance Stephenson. A more talented Lance Stephenson is an interesting player to have in your core, and I will take that. What is required, though, is a lot of supporting parts that can keep him in check and allow him to be him. I compare it to KG and Ben Wallace getting the most out of Rasheed Wallace, or Al Horford getting the most out of Josh Smith. This year, if we don't draft someone that can take Scottie's keys, it'll be tough to build a consistent winner, imo.

[Brinbe]

Scottie is def led by his emotions and we've long seen him be affected by it when he's frustrated or his confidence is shaken or at a low over the course of a game. And that sometimes can play too much of a part in things, especially when it starts to noticeably affect his teammates/vibe of the team and that's not ideal when he's supposed to be a leader of sorts. I think we've def seen some of that lately.

I also don't know if it's something that will necessarily change too much even as he gets older, especially when it comes to expectations about 'maturity'. Sometimes people are just wired a certain way. And that's not to say that emotions aren't important and it does help when he's feeling good about his game or feeling competitive, it's more about channeling the negative into a more neutral or positive and getting to a more neutral baseline.

Hopefully we see him go on a better run of form as the squad returns to full health.

[Tripod]

All the comments about Barnes dancing and immaturity.

Barely a whisper about the older IQ hitting a 3 and skipping in celebration while Biz runs behind him and catches a pass for an easy dunk in transition.

[Vampirate]

I think Scottie is maybe the worst type of player we've ever built around, and I concede that he's going to be one of the best Raptors of all time when all is said and done. One, because his game is a master-of-none style, where his strength is actually portability and not foundational. Two, because his personality is immature. Three, because his effort is inconsistent. Four, because his best strength is defensive versatility. Tagging on a scoring/creation burden is going to impact his energy on the defensive end.

1. Bargs and really Derozan were worse. we don't think Derozan was worse simply because we added Lowry, but had we not got lowry, things look much worse let's be honest.

2. In order for Barnes to be one of the best Raptors of all time he needs at least regular season success (multiple 50+ win seasons)

3. Barnes is not really a Jack of all Trades, his 3 point shot isn't there.

4. In order to be a true star in this league you also can't be a master of one, you have to be a master of many. (also Derozan wasn't really a master of the midrange till much later). Putting a ceiling or floor on Barnes right now isn't wise on what he's going to be 3-5 years from now as we won't know. He has his flaws no doubt, but what you say now, may not be what you're saying then.

5. It's a part of his personality but fair point, however if it leads to wins you'll be embracing it.

6. He's not that versatile defensively, a really defensive versatile defender is Bam who can defend the perimeter, Barnes isn't that.

Barnes is very good as the 2nd wave of defense.


As for the whole 'Master of None' he strength was always his short game, it appears he trying to expand that strength out to the 10-16 feet area now. So far so good.

[Vampirate]

This is exactly what I mean though, he definitely has moves that could be "in his bag" but he doesn't use them often enough or successfully enough to say that he has them "in his bag". I just think it's premature to say he has anything that fits that criteria at the present time.

I don't even know I would call a fadeaway turnaround jump shot is a good shot.

Same as DeRozan on shooting his long 2 and back then people claimed those are efficient shots, which can be disappeared in the playoffs, no?

Not a good shot when compared to a set shot for sure, but Scottie is 6'9 with a high release point on his shot, it would be hard to block even for someone like Wemby. The key is him hitting it at a good clip, which he will need to practice, and why I'm so against him taking so many ill advised 3's.

I think where he's taking them is starting to matter more than how he's taking them.

Through last season and this season.



I think he's spreading his three point shots around too much.

What do you make of this?

[HangTime]

I don't even know I would call a fadeaway turnaround jump shot is a good shot.

Same as DeRozan on shooting his long 2 and back then people claimed those are efficient shots, which can be disappeared in the playoffs, no?

Not a good shot when compared to a set shot for sure, but Scottie is 6'9 with a high release point on his shot, it would be hard to block even for someone like Wemby. The key is him hitting it at a good clip, which he will need to practice, and why I'm so against him taking so many ill advised 3's.

I think where he's taking them is starting to matter more than how he's taking them.

Through last season and this season.



I think he's spreading his three point shots around too much.

What do you make of this?

The spread is good, the more comfortable that becomes, the more dynamic he can become.

[TorontoBarneys]

I think the only thing that is certain at this point is that he won't be "THAT guy".

With respect, you're simply not in a position to definitively claim if Scottie is THAT guy or not.

At best this thread is reactionary based on a season that has amounted to nothing worthy of note. Replace Scottie with literally any other player his age in the NBA of your choosing with the same number of missed games and we'd be more or less where we are now i.e rebuilding.

Lamelo is playing on a team going absolutely nowhere and most people here would take him over Barnes in a heartbeat because they know he's THAT guy.

[ATLTimekeeper]

I think Scottie is maybe the worst type of player we've ever built around, and I concede that he's going to be one of the best Raptors of all time when all is said and done. One, because his game is a master-of-none style, where his strength is actually portability and not foundational. Two, because his personality is immature. Three, because his effort is inconsistent. Four, because his best strength is defensive versatility. Tagging on a scoring/creation burden is going to impact his energy on the defensive end.

1. Bargs and really Derozan were worse. we don't think Derozan was worse simply because we added Lowry, but had we not got lowry, things look much worse let's be honest.

2. In order for Barnes to be one of the best Raptors of all time he needs at least regular season success (multiple 50+ win seasons)

3. Barnes is not really a Jack of all Trades, his 3 point shot isn't there.

4. In order to be a true star in this league you also can't be a master of one, you have to be a master of many. (also Derozan wasn't really a master of the midrange till much later). Putting a ceiling or floor on Barnes right now isn't wise on what he's going to be 3-5 years from now as we won't know. He has his flaws no doubt, but what you say now, may not be what you're saying then.

5. It's a part of his personality but fair point, however if it leads to wins you'll be embracing it.

6. He's not that versatile defensively, a really defensive versatile defender is Bam who can defend the perimeter, Barnes isn't that.

Barnes is very good as the 2nd wave of defense.

As for the whole 'Master of None' he strength was always his short game, it appears he trying to expand that strength out to the 10-16 feet area now. So far so good.

1) While I disagree we built around DeMar, the reasons I gave for building around Scottie were not really there with DeMar. He indeed proved that he was easy to built around and with. Maybe Scottie will, too, but at least early in his career DeMar was a head down blue collar worker that had been humbled by his college experience and went to his USC coach to ask how to play.

2) Agree. He can do this with better players than him, as well.

3) His 3PT shot is there enough that he is a master of none. A low % isn't a no %, if you get what I'm saying.

4) Okay but right now we're talking about year 4. I'm not going to put a ceiling on him, either, but expressing in a post why it's a challenge to create an environment around him reaching that ceiling.

5) I said as much in the paragraph you decided not to quote.

6) Disagree. Bam is better, of course, but Scottie is up there with the best.