JV on pace to do what only 8 centers have done

[MEDIC]

Casey uses JV just like the mavs did with tyson chandler while he was an assistant. This is my sole complaint with his developement of him. He is there to set screens, play d, and rebound. You get your put backs and shots within ball movement. What us fans really crave is to unleash the offensive potential.

Speak for yourself. I'd rather have Chandler on my team than Brook Lopez.

Casey needs to get the maximum possible defensive potential out of JV. If that means keeping him on a short leash due to defensive miscues, then I am all for it.

I have no issues with the way JV is being developed. He will be a much better 2 way player in the long term because of the way he is being developed.

Do I want him to be more than Chandler offensively? For sure.....he already is. JV gets way more post up opportunities than Chandler does.

JV's weakness is not his offense. He will naturally become a very good offensive C in this league. I'm not worried. What I do worry about is him becoming an "all offense, no defense" type C that you can't win a championship with.

[MEDIC]

I've wrote this before, but Icing would tremendously alleviate putting JV into precarious situations where he's unable to stop the ballhandler and his man. What ICE defense does is that JV wouldn't be put in position where he has to protect against penetration and the pullup jumper when he's dropping back against the ballhandler using the screen because the baseline drive would be cut off with JV plugging the driving lane and it leverages his ability to erase shots at the rim since baseline drives are extremely difficult to finish with no clean angle of the backboard and the ballhandler has a tight confinement of space to maneuver making his options limited. Essentially, the only shot conceded is the pullup jumper. The less options the ballhandler the has, the greater the chance the defense has of making a stop. JV doesn't have the mobility to contain the dribble when he ballhandler comes off of the screen and if his man can roll/pop (Horford) he has too much ground to cover that he can't effectively do under this scheme.

But I think the benefit of ICE defense is that it shortens the rotations not having to cover as much ground for everyone because in this scheme a third defender has to rotate all the way over to the strongside to stop the roll man from catching the ball or for a jumper off of a PnP action versus being on the helpside line in ICE where the ball is funnelled to the sideline and the options are much more limited for the ballhandler with the baseline pass being the best pass. If they try to pass out of the trap, the flight of the pass is longer and allows the defender to recover where as the Raptors are always in a scramble when they allow the ballhandler to use the screen.

I'm not normally one that feels that a coach should adjust his style based on his players (quite the opposite), but if JV keeps developing into an offensive force, then you have to find ways to keep him in the game for 30+ minutes.

If JV turns into one of your best players & the defensive scheme doesn't work for him (because of size/ mobility), then maybe you have to adjust your defensive scheme to make sure your top players can be in the game most of the time.

It's not like we have a top 5 defense with the current defensive philosiphies. Nothing lost really.

At that point you either have to get Casey to leave his comfort zone & try something new or find a coach that believes in the defensive schemes that you think your players will be most successful at.

A lot of our players have admitted that Caseys defensive system takes a lot of work & burns a lot of energy. That's probably why you see this team take a defensive nosedive from time to time.

Question for you Undefeated. How does the Grizzlies defensive system differ from ours? They rely so heavily on having their starting bigs in the game.

[Shwaguy]

Casey uses JV just like the mavs did with tyson chandler while he was an assistant. This is my sole complaint with his developement of him. He is there to set screens, play d, and rebound. You get your put backs and shots within ball movement. What us fans really crave is to unleash the offensive potential.

Speak for yourself. I'd rather have Chandler on my team than Brook Lopez.

Casey needs to get the maximum possible defensive potential out of JV. If that means keeping him on a short leash due to defensive miscues, then I am all for it.

I have no issues with the way JV is being developed. He will be a much better 2 way player in the long term because of the way he is being developed.

Do I want him to be more than Chandler offensively? For sure.....he already is. JV gets way more post up opportunities than Chandler does.

JV's weakness is not his offense. He will naturally become a very good offensive C in this league. I'm not worried. What I do worry about is him becoming an "all offense, no defense" type C that you can't win a championship with.

And I'd rather have Cousins than Chandler. JV is an Average Defender at least. I always see him making strong defensive plays game to game. It's all Casey's Defensive scheme that causes problems for him. Change the scheme.

[ForeverTFC]

I'm a Raptors fan. That's all it is. Me criticizng JV has nothing to do with Demar. Stop assuming. You consider DD to be my guy because I said to give him more than 2 games after he was back from injury...


Metrics show that JV is one of the worst defenders in the league. Me pointing it out has nothing to do with being a fan of another player. Why should it? It is about JV not being good on defense and as a result unlikely to be one of the main two guys to build around. It doesn't help this franchise in the least to overvalue our center and overpay him. How many teams go far in the playoffs with a center who is terrible at defense? I just pointed out D real plus minus and JV's rank but you've ignored that.Convenient.

But please explain how PER takes into account defense, which is JV's biggest weakness. I'm still waiting.

Isn't it funny how looking at PER of players under 22 isn't cherry picking but looking at other stats is?

Stay biased friend. I will continue being a Raptors fan and not a player fan.

You clearly don't like to read, so this will be my last reply.

1 - Stats do not show JV to be one of the worst defenders in the league. 5 feet and in, he keeps players under their average FG%, which shows he is a good rim protector. Rebounding numbers also point him out as one of the best in the league. His defense is a mix, and our style of defense which requires quick rotation and close outs magnifies his weaknesses. He is an average defender, and as evidenced in the last month in his defensive numbers, he is getting better.

2. I clearly said PER is an offensive metric and most take it as that. No one here is debating defense with PER but you. Please read.

3. I clearly said that cherry picked stats do not paint a picture one way or another. Please read.

4. This whole thread, my replies include references to Valanciunas' strengths and weaknesses. You are the one that has come into a thread that is showcasing his PER and offensive fortitude to negate it with all that you have. I ask you, which of us looks biased?

[ATLTimekeeper]

The point is that him being among 8 centers in PER is meaningless. There is no context. I'd sooner take notice of the terrible company he is in defensively over his company in PER.

He was a positive DBPM player his first two seasons, so I would say the negative number this year, which is undeniably bad, says less about future results than, say, a high PER player becoming more efficient with less reliance on his team to create for him.

The bigger negative number this year should just be an indication that something has changed within the team or with JV that needs some form of adjustment. Even DBPM this year shows that JV is 6th worst on our team, with DeMar, Ross, Vasquez and Lou Will all below him in our rotation.

[GoSu]

Stats praise Valanciunas.
Hero, nitrous, MVP- and GED_Education do not like what this thread provided.

I'm a Raptor fan first. What are you?

All I do is point out that PER doesn't account for everything and looking at defense, JV is in really bad company historically. Of course a JV first fan wouldn't like that.

I've been reading this forum daily for the past 3 years, granted I came here at first due Kleiza and later JV playing here, but I'm a Raptor fan now no lesser than you. I do like some players more than others (Jonas, Kyle, Amir, Jose, Quincy), but I truly believe I've shown no homerism towards them nor did I exclusively hated on the others (with possible exceptions for Casey, Bargnani and Gay).
In those past few years I've probably read hundreds of your posts and despite you now saying "i'm Raptors fan first", how I honestly would describe you:
1)JV hater first (you just can't possibly skip mentioning JV flaws in 90% of your posts, no matter the topic, granted you don't behave like MVP- or nitrous and post hateful comment just for the sake of it, normally you add arguments with it, but you always emphasize on JV flaws, ignore his good properties and refuse to see the bigger picture. Reading your posts random observer would assume that JV is the culprit of all the Raptor problems, while he's nowhere near the top list team should improve on)
2)DD homer 2nd (it totally doesn't matter if he shoots at 25% fg, takes long two after long two etc., he's still "our" best player and all is forgiven)
3)ok, you are Raptor fan, we all are.

I'm sorry for the offtopic, here's an article in return:
http://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/nba/valanciunas-proving-equal-to-nbas-best-bigs/

And a random picture of two men in the same airport but apparently different climate zones:

[vini_vidi_vici]

I'm a Raptors fan. That's all it is. Me criticizng JV has nothing to do with Demar. Stop assuming. You consider DD to be my guy because I said to give him more than 2 games after he was back from injury...


Metrics show that JV is one of the worst defenders in the league. Me pointing it out has nothing to do with being a fan of another player. Why should it? It is about JV not being good on defense and as a result unlikely to be one of the main two guys to build around. It doesn't help this franchise in the least to overvalue our center and overpay him. How many teams go far in the playoffs with a center who is terrible at defense? I just pointed out D real plus minus and JV's rank but you've ignored that.Convenient.

But please explain how PER takes into account defense, which is JV's biggest weakness. I'm still waiting.

Isn't it funny how looking at PER of players under 22 isn't cherry picking but looking at other stats is?

Stay biased friend. I will continue being a Raptors fan and not a player fan.

You clearly don't like to read, so this will be my last reply.

1 - Stats do not show JV to be one of the worst defenders in the league. 5 feet and in, he keeps players under their average FG%, which shows he is a good rim protector. Rebounding numbers also point him out as one of the best in the league. His defense is a mix, and our style of defense which requires quick rotation and close outs magnifies his weaknesses. He is an average defender, and as evidenced in the last month in his defensive numbers, he is getting better.

2. I clearly said PER is an offensive metric and most take it as that. No one here is debating defense with PER but you. Please read.

3. I clearly said that cherry picked stats do not paint a picture one way or another. Please read.

4. This whole thread, my replies include references to Valanciunas' strengths and weaknesses. You are the one that has come into a thread that is showcasing his PER and offensive fortitude to negate it with all that you have. I ask you, which of us looks biased?

FWIW PER isnt just an offensive metric, it incls DREBs/Steals/Blocks. The issue is ppl cite it as one, and dont understand how it skews defense.

Its also not just DPBM that shows JV as bad. His DFG% differential is the high, and the argument hes good within __ ft may have merit, they dont be upset if it limits his mins to guarding only inside threats. Amir is better guarding inside 10ft anyways, thus why hes used. His iDRTG is T34th (with Dalembert/Bropez) of 57 qualifiers. His DRPM is bad 64th of 76 Cs. Within team concepts, the team DRTG drops 5.7 points per 100 when hes off the floor.

In the month of Jan, hes been a +8.5 DFG% differential. Incl being a +2.6 inside 10ft.

[Dalek]

The obvious thing I noticed from the data is that JV is well behind in minutes compared to other players, and also rebounds. The rebound concern for me is that even if we increase his minutes I don't think he is anywhere on par with those centres, outside of Brook Lopez.

The other thing to consider before people start the "fire Casey" momentum, is that his efficiency likely takes a hit the more possessions go through him. Right now he is taking care of the small number of touches he gets, but at 22, he might not be able to take more touches and be efficient, while maintaining important defensive focus. It is not like JV just jumps and dunks it over people like Drummond or Howard. He has to use footwork and skill to get his shot off.

He is one of the best rebounders in the league.

Valanciunas is also grabbing the same percent of contested rebounds as Marc Gasol, Kenneth Faried and Dwight Howard, and among the league leaders in rebounding opportunities despite only playing 26 minutes a game.

I will have to give you this one because I don't really get what a contested rebound is and how they track that data. I'd say he is closer to Marc Gasol as a rebounder rather than Faried and Howard who have wider rebounding range due to their athletic gifts and mentality.

[Kabookalu]

It'll help us in the playoffs when defenses will be swarming all over lowry and demar. jv needs to be comfortable when he's asked to carry the offense in short bursts, especially in the 4th quarter.
If you're a chess player, you know to think a few moves ahead. Developing JV won't get u wins now but it will in the playoffs and in the seasons to come. Too many people around here play checkers though.

Giving Jonas more iso moves in the post is playing chess?

Great reading comprehension. Totally got my point there.

My reading comprehension is just fine. Just that after all this pretension posturing you did claiming to have a higher understanding of basketball compared to the rest of this board, comparing yourself to a chess player, your grand idea to succeeding in the playoffs is babying Jonas touches so that he can get more comfortable as a post scorer, something he's already confident in doing.

[Kabookalu]

I've wrote this before, but Icing would tremendously alleviate putting JV into precarious situations where he's unable to stop the ballhandler and his man. What ICE defense does is that JV wouldn't be put in position where he has to protect against penetration and the pullup jumper when he's dropping back against the ballhandler using the screen because the baseline drive would be cut off with JV plugging the driving lane and it leverages his ability to erase shots at the rim since baseline drives are extremely difficult to finish with no clean angle of the backboard and the ballhandler has a tight confinement of space to maneuver making his options limited. Essentially, the only shot conceded is the pullup jumper. The less options the ballhandler the has, the greater the chance the defense has of making a stop. JV doesn't have the mobility to contain the dribble when he ballhandler comes off of the screen and if his man can roll/pop (Horford) he has too much ground to cover that he can't effectively do under this scheme.

But I think the benefit of ICE defense is that it shortens the rotations not having to cover as much ground for everyone because in this scheme a third defender has to rotate all the way over to the strongside to stop the roll man from catching the ball or for a jumper off of a PnP action versus being on the helpside line in ICE where the ball is funnelled to the sideline and the options are much more limited for the ballhandler with the baseline pass being the best pass. If they try to pass out of the trap, the flight of the pass is longer and allows the defender to recover where as the Raptors are always in a scramble when they allow the ballhandler to use the screen.

I'm not normally one that feels that a coach should adjust his style based on his players (quite the opposite), but if JV keeps developing into an offensive force, then you have to find ways to keep him in the game for 30+ minutes.

If JV turns into one of your best players & the defensive scheme doesn't work for him (because of size/ mobility), then maybe you have to adjust your defensive scheme to make sure your top players can be in the game most of the time.

It's not like we have a top 5 defense with the current defensive philosiphies. Nothing lost really.

At that point you either have to get Casey to leave his comfort zone & try something new or find a coach that believes in the defensive schemes that you think your players will be most successful at.

A lot of our players have admitted that Caseys defensive system takes a lot of work & burns a lot of energy. That's probably why you see this team take a defensive nosedive from time to time.

Question for you Undefeated. How does the Grizzlies defensive system differ from ours? They rely so heavily on having their starting bigs in the game.

I said this before but a lot of the drastic changes that people here want don't happen right away, they usually happen during the offseason in training camp. I think Casey is open to change more than he's given credit for; this season he's changed up the offense that assumed DeRozan would take that step into superstardom. It failed, really badly. When DeRozan went down he tried sticking by his guns and made Lowry the SG. It was clear though that in doing so our defense was excruciatingly bad because of Vasquez. So he said **** it, let's go back to what made us great last year. For a while I remember we ran nothing but horns for a good stretch before DeRozan returned.

He can be stubborn, but I've found that he won't make changes if it means completely abandoning the philosophies they've worked so hard in instilling, but will make them if it means their principles won't be compromised, but he won't get acknowledged for this by the fans because it's not the changes that they want.

[dTox]

I'm a Raptors fan. That's all it is. Me criticizng JV has nothing to do with Demar. Stop assuming. You consider DD to be my guy because I said to give him more than 2 games after he was back from injury...


Metrics show that JV is one of the worst defenders in the league. Me pointing it out has nothing to do with being a fan of another player. Why should it? It is about JV not being good on defense and as a result unlikely to be one of the main two guys to build around. It doesn't help this franchise in the least to overvalue our center and overpay him. How many teams go far in the playoffs with a center who is terrible at defense? I just pointed out D real plus minus and JV's rank but you've ignored that.Convenient.

But please explain how PER takes into account defense, which is JV's biggest weakness. I'm still waiting.

Isn't it funny how looking at PER of players under 22 isn't cherry picking but looking at other stats is?

Stay biased friend. I will continue being a Raptors fan and not a player fan.

You clearly don't like to read, so this will be my last reply.

1 - Stats do not show JV to be one of the worst defenders in the league. 5 feet and in, he keeps players under their average FG%, which shows he is a good rim protector. Rebounding numbers also point him out as one of the best in the league. His defense is a mix, and our style of defense which requires quick rotation and close outs magnifies his weaknesses. He is an average defender, and as evidenced in the last month in his defensive numbers, he is getting better.

2. I clearly said PER is an offensive metric and most take it as that. No one here is debating defense with PER but you. Please read.

3. I clearly said that cherry picked stats do not paint a picture one way or another. Please read.

4. This whole thread, my replies include references to Valanciunas' strengths and weaknesses. You are the one that has come into a thread that is showcasing his PER and offensive fortitude to negate it with all that you have. I ask you, which of us looks biased?

FWIW PER isnt just an offensive metric, it incls DREBs/Steals/Blocks. The issue is ppl cite it as one, and dont understand how it skews defense.

Its also not just DPBM that shows JV as bad. His DFG% differential is the high, and the argument hes good within __ ft may have merit, they dont be upset if it limits his mins to guarding only inside threats. Amir is better guarding inside 10ft anyways, thus why hes used. His iDRTG is T34th (with Dalembert/Bropez) of 57 qualifiers. His DRPM is bad 64th of 76 Cs. Within team concepts, the team DRTG drops 5.7 points per 100 when hes off the floor.

In the month of Jan, hes been a +8.5 DFG% differential. Incl being a +2.6 inside 10ft.

Out of curiousity, how do other 7footers compare within 10ft, like Gasol, Duncan, Perkins, Bogut etc.

[vini_vidi_vici]

You clearly don't like to read, so this will be my last reply.

1 - Stats do not show JV to be one of the worst defenders in the league. 5 feet and in, he keeps players under their average FG%, which shows he is a good rim protector. Rebounding numbers also point him out as one of the best in the league. His defense is a mix, and our style of defense which requires quick rotation and close outs magnifies his weaknesses. He is an average defender, and as evidenced in the last month in his defensive numbers, he is getting better.

2. I clearly said PER is an offensive metric and most take it as that. No one here is debating defense with PER but you. Please read.

3. I clearly said that cherry picked stats do not paint a picture one way or another. Please read.

4. This whole thread, my replies include references to Valanciunas' strengths and weaknesses. You are the one that has come into a thread that is showcasing his PER and offensive fortitude to negate it with all that you have. I ask you, which of us looks biased?

FWIW PER isnt just an offensive metric, it incls DREBs/Steals/Blocks. The issue is ppl cite it as one, and dont understand how it skews defense.

Its also not just DPBM that shows JV as bad. His DFG% differential is the high, and the argument hes good within __ ft may have merit, they dont be upset if it limits his mins to guarding only inside threats. Amir is better guarding inside 10ft anyways, thus why hes used. His iDRTG is T34th (with Dalembert/Bropez) of 57 qualifiers. His DRPM is bad 64th of 76 Cs. Within team concepts, the team DRTG drops 5.7 points per 100 when hes off the floor.

In the month of Jan, hes been a +8.5 DFG% differential. Incl being a +2.6 inside 10ft.

Out of curiousity, how do other 7footers compare within 10ft, like Gasol, Duncan, Perkins, Bogut etc.

You know I like you man, but this is what Clementine was insinuating im "afraid of resistence" about. I would like to know too, and maybe one day ill sit down and go over all the numbers of them and post here, but its a big undertaking. I dont have the time or effort to do all that, hopefully someone can, but because its you adn I appreciate all the insider stuff, ill do the four you listed. It would be easier if I didnt have to go to each profile individually.

Inside 10 ft DFG% differential/overall
Jonas -2.6, overall +3.3
Gasol -5.2, overall -3.2
Duncan -7.4, overall -4.6
Perkins -7.6, overall -4.0
Bogut -15.7, overall -9.7

Edit: And just because Amir is in my tabs, -3.7, overall +1.2

[dTox]

FWIW PER isnt just an offensive metric, it incls DREBs/Steals/Blocks. The issue is ppl cite it as one, and dont understand how it skews defense.

Its also not just DPBM that shows JV as bad. His DFG% differential is the high, and the argument hes good within __ ft may have merit, they dont be upset if it limits his mins to guarding only inside threats. Amir is better guarding inside 10ft anyways, thus why hes used. His iDRTG is T34th (with Dalembert/Bropez) of 57 qualifiers. His DRPM is bad 64th of 76 Cs. Within team concepts, the team DRTG drops 5.7 points per 100 when hes off the floor.

In the month of Jan, hes been a +8.5 DFG% differential. Incl being a +2.6 inside 10ft.

Out of curiousity, how do other 7footers compare within 10ft, like Gasol, Duncan, Perkins, Bogut etc.

You know I like you man, but this is what Clementine was insinuating im "afraid of resistence" about. I would like to know too, and maybe one day ill sit down and go over all the numbers of them and post here, but its a big undertaking. I dont have the time or effort to do all that, hopefully someone can, but because its you adn I appreciate all the insider stuff, ill do the four you listed. It would be easier if I didnt have to go to each profile individually.

Inside 10 ft DFG% differential/overall
Jonas -2.6, overall +3.3
Gasol -5.2, overall -3.2
Duncan -7.4, overall -4.6
Perkins -7.6, overall -4.0
Bogut -15.7, overall -9.7

Edit: And just because Amir is in my tabs, -3.7, overall +1.2

I'm just trying to think, if Casey switched up his defence to how some of the other teams utilize their slower bigs on D, less ball pressure from guards/gambles on the ball, wouldn't that prevent less exposure for JV within the 10ft area? Its an honest question, our D hasn't been elite so an adjustment to our approach shouldn't be totally shrugged off. I appreciate you looking it up for me, I didn't expect you to do it during working hours so big thanks on taking the time to do it

[ForeverTFC]

I'm a Raptors fan. That's all it is. Me criticizng JV has nothing to do with Demar. Stop assuming. You consider DD to be my guy because I said to give him more than 2 games after he was back from injury...


Metrics show that JV is one of the worst defenders in the league. Me pointing it out has nothing to do with being a fan of another player. Why should it? It is about JV not being good on defense and as a result unlikely to be one of the main two guys to build around. It doesn't help this franchise in the least to overvalue our center and overpay him. How many teams go far in the playoffs with a center who is terrible at defense? I just pointed out D real plus minus and JV's rank but you've ignored that.Convenient.

But please explain how PER takes into account defense, which is JV's biggest weakness. I'm still waiting.

Isn't it funny how looking at PER of players under 22 isn't cherry picking but looking at other stats is?

Stay biased friend. I will continue being a Raptors fan and not a player fan.

You clearly don't like to read, so this will be my last reply.

1 - Stats do not show JV to be one of the worst defenders in the league. 5 feet and in, he keeps players under their average FG%, which shows he is a good rim protector. Rebounding numbers also point him out as one of the best in the league. His defense is a mix, and our style of defense which requires quick rotation and close outs magnifies his weaknesses. He is an average defender, and as evidenced in the last month in his defensive numbers, he is getting better.

2. I clearly said PER is an offensive metric and most take it as that. No one here is debating defense with PER but you. Please read.

3. I clearly said that cherry picked stats do not paint a picture one way or another. Please read.

4. This whole thread, my replies include references to Valanciunas' strengths and weaknesses. You are the one that has come into a thread that is showcasing his PER and offensive fortitude to negate it with all that you have. I ask you, which of us looks biased?

FWIW PER isnt just an offensive metric, it incls DREBs/Steals/Blocks. The issue is ppl cite it as one, and dont understand how it skews defense.

Its also not just DPBM that shows JV as bad. His DFG% differential is the high, and the argument hes good within __ ft may have merit, they dont be upset if it limits his mins to guarding only inside threats. Amir is better guarding inside 10ft anyways, thus why hes used. His iDRTG is T34th (with Dalembert/Bropez) of 57 qualifiers. His DRPM is bad 64th of 76 Cs. Within team concepts, the team DRTG drops 5.7 points per 100 when hes off the floor.

In the month of Jan, hes been a +8.5 DFG% differential. Incl being a +2.6 inside 10ft.

On the season, both Amir and Jonas have held to a negative Diff% within 10 feet and both have a positive Diff% outside 15 feet.

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202685/tracking/defense/" target="_blank
http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/101161/tracking/defense/" target="_blank

If you look at last season, Jonas and Amir had virtually the same effect, and Jonas was better guarding greater than 15 feet:

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202685/t ... on=2013-14" target="_blank
http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/101161/t ... on=2013-14" target="_blank


Am I wrong to hypothesize that our current defensive scheme hurts our bigs? Clearly, this isn't a trend. He has regressed, and so has Amir. Does this not at least bring up the possibility that our system negatively impacts our bigs' defensive numbers?

[vini_vidi_vici]

I'm just trying to think, if Casey switched up his defence to how some of the other teams utilize their slower bigs on D, less ball pressure from guards/gambles on the ball, wouldn't that prevent less exposure for JV within the 10ft area? Its an honest question, our D hasn't been elite so an adjustment to our approach shouldn't be totally shrugged off. I appreciate you looking it up for me, I didn't expect you to do it during working hours so big thanks on taking the time to do it

I think like UD is advocating, we need to mix up the coverages so teams dont know exactly how were going to defend certain sets. Im not sure you purely BLUE screens whether sideline/middle PnR, nor just hedge recover, nor just step back (like JV). I vaguely remember DC saying he wasnt going to show much early in the season in that respect, it was one of the media scrums. I remember even KL (in a Lowe article? scrum maybe??) mentioned they dont ICE coverages ever, but that was a month or 2 ago.

To your Q, I think you want JV defending inside 10 ft, so maybe funneling middle where he can use his length/rim protection is more ideal in that sense.

The team has been a top 10 D without JV in the lineup this year, and was top 10 last year with him, so its tough for me to advocate its just a broken system. But yea, I do think some adjustments could be made, and likely will as the season progresses.

I PMed this to Choker, but if youre looking to read more about ICEing the PnR, heres a great article illustrating the pros/cons of it, from a Celts perspective/blog. Sounds like a great defensive C is needed in this too by the summation.

And heres an article talking about different ways teams defend the PnR, youll see we do employ a defense similar to Hibbert/Pacers (at the bottom) with JV.

All in all, im not qualified to give answers, im just some poster on a msg board trying to learn this stuff. Illl leave that up to the guys who think DC is a terrible coach and they could do better. I just hope to see some improvement and it be reflective in the numbers.

[Jstock12]

JV is such a scrub. Already 22 years old and still not a DPOY

[dTox]

I'm just trying to think, if Casey switched up his defence to how some of the other teams utilize their slower bigs on D, less ball pressure from guards/gambles on the ball, wouldn't that prevent less exposure for JV within the 10ft area? Its an honest question, our D hasn't been elite so an adjustment to our approach shouldn't be totally shrugged off. I appreciate you looking it up for me, I didn't expect you to do it during working hours so big thanks on taking the time to do it

I think like UD is advocating, we need to mix up the coverages so teams dont know exactly how were going to defend certain sets. Im not sure you purely BLUE screens whether sideline/middle PnR, nor just hedge recover, nor just step back (like JV). I vaguely remember DC saying he wasnt going to show much early in the season in that respect, it was one of the media scrums. I remember even KL (in a Lowe article? scrum maybe??) mentioned they dont ICE coverages ever, but that was a month or 2 ago.

To your Q, I think you want JV defending inside 10 ft, so maybe funneling middle where he can use his length/rim protection is more ideal in that sense.

The team has been a top 10 D without JV in the lineup this year, and was top 10 last year with him, so its tough for me to advocate its just a broken system. But yea, I do think some adjustments could be made, and likely will as the season progresses.

I PMed this to Choker, but if youre looking to read more about ICEing the PnR, heres a great article illustrating the pros/cons of it, from a Celts perspective/blog. Sounds like a great defensive C is needed in this too by the summation.

And heres an article talking about different ways teams defend the PnR, youll see we do employ a defense similar to Hibbert/Pacers (at the bottom) with JV.

All in all, im not qualified to give answers, im just some poster on a msg board trying to learn this stuff. Illl leave that up to the guys who think DC is a terrible coach and they could do better. I just hope to see some improvement and it be reflective in the numbers.

Thanks for this, I'll look into this once I"m off work at 5, and yeah I don't think the sensible decision is to kick off a coach in the middle of the best season ever, I've been advocating tweaks in the D for quite some time, to minimize the damage in having a slower C on the court, I think this discussion is definitely thread worthy and shouldn't get lost in the back and forth bickering between two extreme groups of people in a thread like this.

[vini_vidi_vici]

You clearly don't like to read, so this will be my last reply.

1 - Stats do not show JV to be one of the worst defenders in the league. 5 feet and in, he keeps players under their average FG%, which shows he is a good rim protector. Rebounding numbers also point him out as one of the best in the league. His defense is a mix, and our style of defense which requires quick rotation and close outs magnifies his weaknesses. He is an average defender, and as evidenced in the last month in his defensive numbers, he is getting better.

2. I clearly said PER is an offensive metric and most take it as that. No one here is debating defense with PER but you. Please read.

3. I clearly said that cherry picked stats do not paint a picture one way or another. Please read.

4. This whole thread, my replies include references to Valanciunas' strengths and weaknesses. You are the one that has come into a thread that is showcasing his PER and offensive fortitude to negate it with all that you have. I ask you, which of us looks biased?

FWIW PER isnt just an offensive metric, it incls DREBs/Steals/Blocks. The issue is ppl cite it as one, and dont understand how it skews defense.

Its also not just DPBM that shows JV as bad. His DFG% differential is the high, and the argument hes good within __ ft may have merit, they dont be upset if it limits his mins to guarding only inside threats. Amir is better guarding inside 10ft anyways, thus why hes used. His iDRTG is T34th (with Dalembert/Bropez) of 57 qualifiers. His DRPM is bad 64th of 76 Cs. Within team concepts, the team DRTG drops 5.7 points per 100 when hes off the floor.

In the month of Jan, hes been a +8.5 DFG% differential. Incl being a +2.6 inside 10ft.

On the season, both Amir and Jonas have held to a negative Diff% within 10 feet and both have a positive Diff% outside 15 feet.

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202685/tracking/defense/" target="_blank" target="_blank
http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/101161/tracking/defense/" target="_blank" target="_blank

If you look at last season, Jonas and Amir had virtually the same effect, and Jonas was better guarding greater than 15 feet:

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202685/t ... on=2013-14" target="_blank" target="_blank
http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/101161/t ... on=2013-14" target="_blank" target="_blank


Am I wrong to hypothesize that our current defensive scheme hurts our bigs? Clearly, this isn't a trend. He has regressed, and so has Amir. Does this not at least bring up the possibility that our system negatively impacts our bigs' defensive numbers?

Youre changing the argument though, I dont know why this is common. None of this is relative to what I responded to, but I digress.

How many bigs has a positive DFG% differential inside 10ft? Thats going to take alot of research. What is the avg of big men inside 10ft?? I mean from those listed above, hes still relatively meh. Conversely, could it be that the bigs (incl Amir, despite his solid numbers DRPM/tDRTG/etc..) are hurting the defense? This is something that again is going to take alot more than anecdotal evidence, and probably alot to flesh out to get an accurate representation. If you do look into in depth id like to read the numbers, PM the results.

If youre using year to year, its likely less about the system as they are playing the same one and could be about different variables, but im not sure.

Okay guys, its 3pm the usual time I leave (for those who think im afraid of resistance) to be more productive at work. I likely wont be around for the weekend/next week for much, if at all, maybe that changes though. I turned off notifications awhile ago, so unless this is front page or I have some new of interest its likely I wont get to respond. Take care guys enjoy the b2b.

[vini_vidi_vici]

Thanks for this, I'll look into this once I"m off work at 5, and yeah I don't think the sensible decision is to kick off a coach in the middle of the best season ever, I've been advocating tweaks in the D for quite some time, to minimize the damage in having a slower C on the court, I think this discussion is definitely thread worthy and shouldn't get lost in the back and forth bickering between two extreme groups of people in a thread like this.

No worries, id rather discussions than anecdotal evidence and narratives too, but once I call ppl out on them it becomes defensive and im attacked (now im compared to someone with aspergers, Veezy likes that one too hah).

Id like to point out this discussion didnt come from talking about PER/JVs offense/what a terrible person I am. Id like to have more of these too, but c'est la vie. Take care man, im out.

[Undefeated]

I'm not normally one that feels that a coach should adjust his style based on his players (quite the opposite), but if JV keeps developing into an offensive force, then you have to find ways to keep him in the game for 30+ minutes.

If JV turns into one of your best players & the defensive scheme doesn't work for him (because of size/ mobility), then maybe you have to adjust your defensive scheme to make sure your top players can be in the game most of the time.

It's not like we have a top 5 defense with the current defensive philosiphies. Nothing lost really.

At that point you either have to get Casey to leave his comfort zone & try something new or find a coach that believes in the defensive schemes that you think your players will be most successful at.

A lot of our players have admitted that Caseys defensive system takes a lot of work & burns a lot of energy. That's probably why you see this team take a defensive nosedive from time to time.

Question for you Undefeated. How does the Grizzlies defensive system differ from ours? They rely so heavily on having their starting bigs in the game.

It's not about accommodating just JV because ICE defense will benefit everyone; the rotations are shorter so the weakside defenders don't have to always be quick on their closeout and get beat on the catch causing the defense to scramble to cover for the man that just got beat. By playing ICE defense the help defender will be on an imaginary help side line down the middle of the lane in contrast to straying all the way over to the strongside in the scheme Casey employs where he allows the ballhandler to use the screen and get to the middle. Offenses will often clear out the strongside corner because it eliminates any help and forces a third defender to rotate all the way over from the weakside to help JV as he contains the dribble (helping the helper). Having a third defender rotate that far leaves the defense susceptible to getting beat by a simple swing action and too often the Raptors are always scrambling defensively for this exact reason. With ICE defense it eliminates those scrambling tendencies. But more importantly ICE defense allows everyone to know their rotations because the defense is always funnelling the ball to the sideline/baseline.

The Grizzlies employ the exact same defense as I'm describing employing ICE defense. Z-Bo and Marc don't have the mobility to hedge and scurry back to their man, so they have them drop back or they'll be "up to touch" and the on-ball defender will get into a no middle stance sandwiching between the screener and the ball denying middle funnelling the ball into Z-Bo and Marc. Basically, once the ballhandler dribbles down into the baseline they don't allow any further penetration and from there the help side defense is set if the ballhandler tries to pass the ball out. Z-Bo might not keep intruders away from the rim with his inability to effectively alter/erase shots, but he's still a wide body that ballhandlers have to maneuver around which is much better than having him hedge and giving up a wide open layup to the screener. Same with Marc, but he's a more intimidating paint presence.