Back on the treadmill

[jimmy keys]

We're in a great position moving forward.

1. good young core in Siakam, OG & FVV.
2. no long-term bad deals. tons of financial flexibility.
3. all our future picks.
4. some nice younger players with potential.
5. max cap space
6. great management

what are people even complaining about again? we can make another all in move if one becomes available or we can go the rebuild route in a couple of years. either way i'm good.

[BlackThought]

lol bookmarking this thread so I can laugh at the people in it later

[Lukeem]

Uhh maybe you should go through my posts when we won the title and had Kawhi.

I was team positive until that debacle against Cleveland and realized a non superstar team is not doing anything, and Kawhi gone and that is what we are again. I get excited to see superstars and contenders - we are neither.

So do you think we are better or worse than pre Derozan trade ?

Once Kyle is gone and (if)we strike out in FA, we are about the same. Maybe win a round at best and never contend for anything with no real way to improve in sight with a full cap signed with mediocre talent, none of which is a superstar.

Fixed and I agree with 99% of what you’re saying. Considering we were one trade away from a championship that didn’t jeopardize our future. That’s damn good place to be. And if we do good in FA we are obviously much better.

[rapsdontlie]

We went all out in 2019, and it paid off big time.

After that our superstar doesn't re-sign, guys leave, guys get old--so we go through a down period. Oh well, that's normal after you win a championship.

But we have a great FO who we can trust during this period. And also an intriguing young core with Siakam, FVV, and OG. So lots to forward to still imo.

[ThatClockWork]

Wait and see if Kyle leaves. There’s going to be a huge meltdown here because some people seem to think thats impossible. It might not be the money the Raptors offer him. it might be the chance to win 1 more championship thats he’s after and Lebron might come calling, the Clippers might come calling, Brooklyn might come calling and we know about the Lakers and Clippers under the table payments so even if the Raptors are offering him more on books he might still get a chuck of change offs the books from the Clippers or the Lakers. People thinks it’s impossible but Masai has probably prepared himself for that with Fred and Flynn. He made sure Fred is locked up and Flynn is more than capable of being a back up that’s not years away so Kyle could indeed be looking for another watering hole. When frank came here he studied more than just kawhi. They might very well be plotting on Lowry next. They could be trying to be the Raptors of LA.

This is the correct take at the moment. I really believe the possibility is increasingly likely that Kyle may be on the move this season (performance of the team pending)/at the end of this contract (of course, I do not want him to go anywhere and I hope this take is incorrect).

[2019nbachamps]

Wait and see if Kyle leaves. There’s going to be a huge meltdown here because some people seem to think thats impossible. It might not be the money the Raptors offer him. it might be the chance to win 1 more championship thats he’s after and Lebron might come calling, the Clippers might come calling, Brooklyn might come calling and we know about the Lakers and Clippers under the table payments so even if the Raptors are offering him more on books he might still get a chuck of change offs the books from the Clippers or the Lakers. People thinks it’s impossible but Masai has probably prepared himself for that with Fred and Flynn. He made sure Fred is locked up and Flynn is more than capable of being a back up that’s not years away so Kyle could indeed be looking for another watering hole. When frank came here he studied more than just kawhi. They might very well be plotting on Lowry next. They could be trying to be the Raptors of LA.

This is the correct take at the moment. I really believe the possibility is increasingly likely that Kyle may be on the move this season (performance of the team pending)/at the end of this contract (of course, I do not want him to go anywhere and I hope this take is incorrect).

Clippers need a PG. Guys like Kawhi, George, Ibaka can opt out next season and then resign team friendly deals to accommodate a PG like Lowry.

[RaptorsNorth]

Wait and see if Kyle leaves. There’s going to be a huge meltdown here because some people seem to think thats impossible. It might not be the money the Raptors offer him. it might be the chance to win 1 more championship thats he’s after and Lebron might come calling, the Clippers might come calling, Brooklyn might come calling and we know about the Lakers and Clippers under the table payments so even if the Raptors are offering him more on books he might still get a chuck of change offs the books from the Clippers or the Lakers. People thinks it’s impossible but Masai has probably prepared himself for that with Fred and Flynn. He made sure Fred is locked up and Flynn is more than capable of being a back up that’s not years away so Kyle could indeed be looking for another watering hole. When frank came here he studied more than just kawhi. They might very well be plotting on Lowry next. They could be trying to be the Raptors of LA.

This is the correct take at the moment. I really believe the possibility is increasingly likely that Kyle may be on the move this season (performance of the team pending)/at the end of this contract (of course, I do not want him to go anywhere and I hope this take is incorrect).

Clippers need a PG. Guys like Kawhi, George, Ibaka can opt out next season and then resign team friendly deals to accommodate a PG like Lowry.

I don’t think some people know how possible this is. this is why we need to watch the Lowry situation with a side eye. Lowry has good value right now and the last thing you want is him walking for nothing. Kawhi knows who he won his last championship with and while some people think Frank was only here for kawhi he had a good look at the championship run and the fact Lowry was the quarterback.

[WaltFrazier]

The path was always, get a superstar, win a championship, spend two years maintaining and then making another run after the summer of 2021.

Last year was gravy.

What dummies thought this was our make-it-or-bust year?

I don't wanna take a step back. I loved the style of play last year, the unselfish passing, the team D, the emergence of OG. I wish we could have run that back, or something like it. If we slip down to a lower seed and 1st round exit, why would any good FA come here? It's unlikely to get one anyway, with the Canada angle and all.

what? we're pretty much running it back with the exact same team. Ibaka was replaced with Baynes. that's it pretty much. Gasol is washed.

I wrote that before Baynes was signed, or before I knew anyway. And now we have Len. So we have a reasonable pair of replacement centers, but a step down from the best 2 center combo in the league we had last year. And there is no guarantee the chemistry will be as good this year. But at least we have real centers.

In the brief time when we had lost Serge and Marc, and Boston signed TT, I may have been wrong to panic thinking Masai was doing nothing. But in the period a lot of posters were saying oh we are still ok, we were always going to be bad this year nd pointing to next summer. They were wrong too. Masai's sudden moves showed that the plan was always to try to be competitive still. We have to have a team that looks good to even have a chance of attracting Giannis. And management knows we can't go back to being an average team after the fans have tasted winning.

The signing of Len also puts to rest the foolish notion I often read here that, oh good now Boucher can have his chance. Hopefully he does improve more, but he is back in his rightful place in the rotation. If he was #2 center off the bench we'd be in trouble.

[RapsAndJays21]

Look at the Cavs, both times after Lebron left. Raps lost a superstar, and legit were minutes away from getting back to the conference finals. Now, we still have good young players, cap flexibility, and a competitive team without tanking - not sure what everyone's issue is. Let's see another team remain competitive after losing a top 10 player.

[gerrit4]

Being a treadmill team means staying in one place, and not being able to move forward or back.

Being a treadmill finals team (like the Warriors & Cavs were) is really good! Can we be that type of treadmill team?

Since we had the 2nd best record in the league last year, staying in that place consistently is pretty good too! But we just lost two key rotation players, so I guess we're off that treadmill and on to another one. So if we lose more this season, we're not treadmilling from last season.

But maybe the OP means we're going to be treadmilling after this season? So the next few seasons will be the same? Well, with Lowry expiring this season, and clearly big changes coming in the summer (whether we get a big player or not, we'll still have a ton of cap room to add pieces around the core) - so it's VERY unlikely that next season mirrors this one.

So when does the treadmill start? It seems like we will have very different outcomes since the 2018-2019 season.

I'd argue that the "treadmill" of being a consistently good team might be in risk, and we may see more fluctuation over the next couple seasons.

[kalel123]

Wait and see if Kyle leaves. There’s going to be a huge meltdown here because some people seem to think thats impossible. It might not be the money the Raptors offer him. it might be the chance to win 1 more championship thats he’s after and Lebron might come calling, the Clippers might come calling, Brooklyn might come calling and we know about the Lakers and Clippers under the table payments so even if the Raptors are offering him more on books he might still get a chuck of change offs the books from the Clippers or the Lakers. People thinks it’s impossible but Masai has probably prepared himself for that with Fred and Flynn. He made sure Fred is locked up and Flynn is more than capable of being a back up that’s not years away so Kyle could indeed be looking for another watering hole. When frank came here he studied more than just kawhi. They might very well be plotting on Lowry next. They could be trying to be the Raptors of LA.

This is the correct take at the moment. I really believe the possibility is increasingly likely that Kyle may be on the move this season (performance of the team pending)/at the end of this contract (of course, I do not want him to go anywhere and I hope this take is incorrect).

I don't get why some people cannot do the simple math.

If the 2021 free agency plan succeeds with someone like Giannis or someone who requires similar pay, that likely means no more Lowry. Will have to renounce him and likely cannot offer him much. Maybe ~5M MLE?

I don't think people who support this plan are preparing for Lowry leaving after this season. I mean, we hope Ujiri can find a way to keep him but there has to be a full understanding that Lowry is likely gone if the plan is successful.

[OakleyDokely]

Treadmill moves wouldve been signing Ibaka and Gasol to multi-year contracts. Treadmill moves would've been signing average free agents to multi-year contracts like many franchises have done this offseason.

What Masai has done is the opposite of the treadmill. He's positioned the Raps where they can take a step back and re-tool or step forward and compete depending on the opportunities that exist. The Raps aren't locked into any particular direction because they have very few players signed to long term deals and they have all their draft picks. Even the young players they've signed can be moved if the right deal comes around.

There aren't many franchises that have a management team this well organized, prepared and analytical when it comes to the future.

[Steelo Green]

So do you think we are better or worse than pre Derozan trade ?

Once Kyle is gone and (if)we strike out in FA, we are about the same. Maybe win a round at best and never contend for anything with no real way to improve in sight with a full cap signed with mediocre talent, none of which is a superstar.

Fixed and I agree with 99% of what you’re saying. Considering we were one trade away from a championship that didn’t jeopardize our future. That’s damn good place to be. And if we do good in FA we are obviously much better.

For the millionth time, a trade like Kawhi has happened 3 times in league history and in Kawhis case he sat out for a year and was at the lowest value possible.

You will never get Kawhi for Demar ever again.

A superstar of his caliber now would pretty much empty our entire talent pool.

[dTox]

Masai got sh*t on by folks for extending Demar (even by me)
Masai got sh*t on for trading a beloved player in Derozan for a legit top 3 player in Kawhi
Masai got sh*t on for hiring a rookie coach in Nurse
Masai is now getting sh*t on by folks for choosing to keep flexibility the next time another superstar becomes available

I've learned after my first mistake, to be patient and just have faith in the damn plan.

[JN]

Even if 2021 Giannis or another big FA is a longshot, we have now maintained full flexibility for 2021 (FA / Trading Picks / Bringing it Back), with the only cost being Ibaka. It hurts but is hardly crushing or something to get overly dramatic about.

We also have 2 players now with team options that are always a good value -- Baynes and Boucher. If they play well, they will be good contracts for retention in 2021/2022 or valuable assets at this year's deadline. If they play poorly they are gone.

[Kingsway_fan]

We need to cash in on Lowry by trade deadline... we can't have him walk like ibaka for nothing...

[TRik]

This has probably been posted already, but it sure does seem like not everyone fully understands the treadmill reference. 'Treadmill' essentially means being around the 8/9 seed range for several years. With your organization not making any serious moves to compete, or alternatively to tank for high draft picks. It means you have no plan to actually improve or 'move forward'. A good example would be the Raps from '07 to '12.

[Brinbe]

anyone seriously calling this a treadmill team is someone i will never take seriously. were you even alive during the bc or babcock era?

[Lukeem]

Once Kyle is gone and (if)we strike out in FA, we are about the same. Maybe win a round at best and never contend for anything with no real way to improve in sight with a full cap signed with mediocre talent, none of which is a superstar.

Fixed and I agree with 99% of what you’re saying. Considering we were one trade away from a championship that didn’t jeopardize our future. That’s damn good place to be. And if we do good in FA we are obviously much better.

For the millionth time, a trade like Kawhi has happened 3 times in league history and in Kawhis case he sat out for a year and was at the lowest value possible.

You will never get Kawhi for Demar ever again.

A superstar of his caliber now would pretty much empty our entire talent pool.

For the millionth time

That is one of many ways we could improve upon which you’ve stated is not a bad a situation (better than our past team that was a step below contender making to east finals.)

But then again you hate this core of fans and players and you’ve stated how the hawks, kings, thunder... are all better off so I understand and accept your resignation from the raptors. Enjoy Sacramento, Atlanta, okc... I’m sure you will be showered in nba titles at each of those places.

[Valard]

Masai got sh*t on by folks for extending Demar (even by me)
Masai got sh*t on for trading a beloved player in Derozan for a legit top 3 player in Kawhi
Masai got sh*t on for hiring a rookie coach in Nurse
Masai is now getting sh*t on by folks for choosing to keep flexibility the next time another superstar becomes available

I've learned after my first mistake, to be patient and just have faith in the damn plan.

But.... but..... but... all these realgm posters clearly know more than Masai!