The too early Suggs vs. Barnes thread

[Psubs]

Kuminga impressed me more in that game than Suggs if I'm being honest.

If Kuminga can round-out his game a bit and he keep his offensive movement under control, over time he's going to be a hell of an NBA player.

GSW got themselves another one.

Kuminga looks like the bigger version of Andrew Wiggins.

[the_flash__]

there's a lot of hypocritical feelings by the pro-suggs crowd.

many of them are willing to trade a known quantity like siakam for draft picks (unknowns) b/c the mystery behind the closed door is more tantalizing than what you have in front of you - an all star quality player who was the #2 usage guy on a chip team.

yet they are very upset that we chose barnes (the unknown w/ crazy potential) instead of suggs b/c suggs to them was the known commodity.

two opposing feelings on display.

Very well put. Didn't even think of it like that initially but very true.

[720]

Suggs is more polished, raises the floor of any franchise he joins. Last night wasn’t eye popping but made winning plays like he did in Gonzaga.

Barnes has more potential due to his size, isn’t as polished on offense but has shown he can score in many ways, has the potential to raise the ceiling of a franchise.

[720]

Kuminga impressed me more in that game than Suggs if I'm being honest.

If Kuminga can round-out his game a bit and he keep his offensive movement under control, over time he's going to be a hell of an NBA player.

GSW got themselves another one.

Kuminga looks like the bigger version of Andrew Wiggins.

Wiggins wishes he could dribble like Kuminga.

[Harold_and_Kumar]

My thoughts are a bit more philosophical than just Barnes vs. Suggs, but it applies pretty well.

I really believe in Bobby and Masai's approach to multi-faceted wings/point forwards with length who play, and want to play good defense. If you believe they also have a strong head on their shoulders to develop, they're naturally going to have a far greater impact on the game than any guard will.

If you're thinking about the top 10 or so players in the NBA, I'd argue only two are guards - Curry and Harden. Curry may be the greatest shooter of all time, and Harden is likely the best ever high usage, efficient scorer of all time. I don't think Suggs has the potential to be a Curry or Harden, and so he's probably going to peak at multiple all-star and never crack a top-10 NBA players list. Which is fine, and will make for a solid pick at 4 or 5.

Alternatively in Barnes you have a big who may be able to dominate a game by breaking down the defense with his passing, offensive rebounding, perimeter defense, shot blocking, and on the fast break - all at 6'9". Essentially, the Raptors are gambling on his ability to make shots at a respectable level. If he can do that you can see him as a better passing Kawhi-lite at his floor. If he's shooting at a Giannis level, even then he's still a productive player that can do multiple things that will contribute to winning, kind of like an Andrei Kirilenko. If he learns to shoot at an above-average level from 3 and people need to guard him from there, he is likely to be a top 5-10 player in the NBA at some point in his career, with everything else he brings.

Personally, I think Suggs is the riskier pick because he has a lower ceiling, and I'd argue a lower floor as well. He's just closer to his prime floor right now than Barnes is. I see Suggs having a Kemba-like career arc where he starts his career more NBA-ready, but plateaus quicker and sustains, whereas I see Barnes taking longer to ascend, but having a much higher peak, much like Giannis or Kawhi.

I'd like to see your top 10.

Don't want to derail the thread, but these are my top 11 because I couldn't get it down to 10.

Doncic
LeBron
Jokic
Durant
Antetokounmpo
Kawhi
Curry
Harden
AD
Embiid
Lillard

I guess you have Curry, Harden, and Lillard as guards (3/11). Doncic is a weird one, but you can include him as a guard if you want. I think he's more of a point-forward with his size, but it's fluid. Nonetheless, I think size combined with a multi-faceted skillset is what I mean. If you don't have the size, you better be elite elite elite at other things, namely shooting.

[Steelo Green]

Comparing selecting Suggs v Barnes to Siakam is such a disingenuous take.

There’s so many layers to trading a Siakam being his flawed status as a number two, his weaknesses as a player, and that if we are rebuilding he doesn’t fit our timeline. He is at best the third best player on a title team. Using his PPG and usage isn’t a good way to say he was the second best player when Kyle and Fred were better.

Cannot compare trading Pascal for picks + pieces to drafting Barnes over Suggs.

[arbsn]

Suggs is an insanely good player. I’m a huge fan of him regardless of us not picking him.

We will almost certainly regret taking him this year. Maybe not in 5 years. I think he was a no brainer pick and Masai and co decided to be cute. Time will tell.

…. Yea, that’s what happened .. it wasn’t cuz they truly believed that Barnes was the better prospect ( has many did, some even thinking Barnes could go top 2) it was BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO BE CUTE

Yes this is what I think. When Suggs was unanimously a top 4 prospect and Masai and Co decide to "ZAG" and pick Barnes, that is being cute. They talked themselves into their guy. Very cute, you went your own way and picked your guy. I did not say whether they were right or wrong. But it is unreasonable to argue that Suggs was not a clear top 4 prospect when every expert, mock draft, etc had him in the top 4.

[Raptors_Dynasty]

So I 100% agree with the argument that guards are plentiful and that guys like Barnes are harder to find

I’m also conflicted because Suggs looks like he has the potential to carry a team offensively as a number 1 option. Barnes, harder to see.

So then I’d argue Suggs is the “rarer” player. Where Barnes is another elite 2nd option, which we have already (although debatable with Pascal)

I don’t have the answers and I guess no one really knows. Just playing devils advocate here :shrug:

[Clay Davis]

What people always miss regarding development is that it is sometimes the case that players will develop more quickly and into better players when they are surrounded by talent than when they are surrounded by other similarly raw prospects. Compare Wiggins on the Warriors to Wiggins on the Wolves; night and day. He would have developed into a much better player had he been on the Warriors (or Cavs ) from the get-go.

Lebron demanding that Wiggins get traded was such a stupid decision. He could have developed into a very, very high-tier role player had he been on the Cavs from the start. He wouldn't have to waste energy on offense and could have focused on just hounding perimeter players, maybe hitting the occasional open shot that LeBron typically makes for his 3nD guys.

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[Pooh_Jeter]

Suggs being low ceiling and Barnes high ceiling is such a lazy narrative. Having a lot of room for growth and skill development doesn't automatically mean you have an incredible ceiling particularly if you are trying to use the complete outlier scenario of Barnes being Giannis.

For a guy playing his first pro game the intangibles/smarts and overall defensive impact Suggs showed was insane. You have guards in their 3rd or 4th year who struggle with all of this stuff. Barnes frame obviously gives him an advantage over Suggs, but I thought Suggs overall defensive performance was more impactful than what Barnes showed. It's literally taking the best of what Lowry/FVV provide, but in a 6'4 frame who is a plus athlete.

With Suggs he is on track to be in that lower tier all-star range, but if he makes the jump into a truly plus shooter or gets more creativity with his handle/finishing around the rim suddenly we are talking about an all-nba calibre guard. Barnes has obvious tools to be a great defensive player, but the gap he has to make up offensively compared to Suggs is gigantic. In my eyes it's much easier to envision Suggs developing into that quasi star than Barnes.

[rapstarter]

Suggs is seriously impressive. His shot looks very promising too.

[ontnut]

Suggs looked really good. Barnes did too.

So far, nothing has really changed my opinion, both have been as good/bad as advertised.

One thing I've been thinking about is that video of the Raptors' war room during the Giannis draft and how hard they tried to trade up to draft their guy. They know what type of player they're looking for, and they go for it. In that sense, it seems like we "traded up" through the lottery, and the FO got their guy.

I do think Suggs would've been perfectly slotted in on this team, but seeing Malachi play in the first game makes me think that perhaps the FO thought that having Malachi + Barnes, was better than having Suggs + Malachi/trying to trade Malachi for a wing.

[720]

Suggs just looks like a winning player to me. He impacts the game on both ends and his shooting ability will only get better. The big question mark was his shot creation ability but I think he did pretty good on that end tonight.

If Barnes doesn't learn how to become a respectable shooter, then we really messed up. I ain't to worried yet though

Just trying to understand this rationale & narrative of what makes Suggs seem like a "winning player" (Barnes team won by double digits, Suggs by a single point that needed OT)....

The concern is if Barnes doesn't become a "respectable shooter"...I mean they shot within a couple percentage points of each other (neither were impressive) BUT Barnes is 6'9 and extremely long and has the ability add some post game as well this is also while Barnes had MORE rebounds, assists AND less turnovers...

It's funny how narratives are built, one guy apparently looks like a star and the other we have to worry about despite arguably having the better game overall.

Isn't that something?!

Also as a point guard he is basically in every action (except whenever Greg Anthony’s son does his worst AI impersonation).

Barnes wasn’t even being put in every play. In the 4th he was basically just standing in the corner while Malachi and the other guard we had kept initiating offense.

Hope we sit Malachi at some point. He’s too good and frankly let’s give Scottie some of that usage.

[Public_Enemy101]

Suggs willed this trash Magic team to a win after Cole kept screwing up. I don't think Barnes would be good enough to do the same "at this moment". Barnes looks like a guys who really thrives with decent pieces around him. Suggs on otherhand looks like he'll be good enough to take over games by himself. That's the difference I see.

[Dalek]

As good as Suggs looked against Kyle Guy, I do like Malachi Flynn's potential as well. He got a lot stronger this offseason and while it is hard to expect blocks from him like Suggs, he is a very sticky defender with better offensive upside.

Suggs is a battering ram and he will get hurt the way he plays. If you bottle his driving lane I don't see a ton of counters from him either. I do like his burst. He will be a freethrow getter.

I feel like we are not talking about Flynn enough on here. His 2nd half of last year and offseason progress is VERY encouraging. His rookie numbers are all depressed because he had a NIGHTMARE start to the season, couldn't hit anything.

They kind of killed his positive momentum by not playing him much after a really good preseason. Then he was trying to not step on broken glass every time he went out the court, and he lost a bit of confidence because Nurse was hard on him. He struggled with the pace of the game and size of the athletes, but when he got more burn he settled in.

I know the age difference is there between Suggs and Flynn, but if we are just talking about players and their skillsets, I prefer Flynn's value as a late first versus Suggs as a top four pick. Flynn is just as dynamic a player with a better handle, off the dribble game and likely passing as well. Flynn in a primary back-up role will be great.

I'd imagine Suggs if drafted would expect to start and play beside Fred. It might have worked out, but to me it isn't that exciting a backcourt - solid on defense but nothing dynamic on O. I'd prefer to take a bigger swing with Barnes who is similar to our best development examples yet different in that he was more ball skills and vision coming in.

[Jadoogar]

This exactly. Trent can put up 40. His defense might be slightly worse than Suggs but was obtained for expiring Powell.

Suggs is likely a healthier Brandon Roy. Barnes ceiling is higher on defense and offense.

...healthy brandon roy is an incredible player. Do you people seriously think Barnes is going to be a top 5 player in the league?
This is the "Tross is the next Paul George" stuff all over again. I like Barnes but we need to stop putting ridiculous expectations on rookies.

Top 15 based on both defense and offense. Hey if Kris Middleton can crack the top 10, why can't Barnes?

.literally no one would consider kris middleton a top player.
That said, if Barnes had a middleton level career, i would be very happy

[Raps1103]

Suggs is an insanely good player. I’m a huge fan of him regardless of us not picking him.

We will almost certainly regret taking him this year. Maybe not in 5 years. I think he was a no brainer pick and Masai and co decided to be cute. Time will tell.

…. Yea, that’s what happened .. it wasn’t cuz they truly believed that Barnes was the better prospect ( has many did, some even thinking Barnes could go top 2) it was BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO BE CUTE

Yes this is what I think. When Suggs was unanimously a top 4 prospect and Masai and Co decide to "ZAG" and pick Barnes, that is being cute. They talked themselves into their guy. Very cute, you went your own way and picked your guy. I did not say whether they were right or wrong. But it is unreasonable to argue that Suggs was not a clear top 4 prospect when every expert, mock draft, etc had him in the top 4.

Lol.. cool story bro ..
have you tried … stomping your feet, pounding the table .. and yelling .” I wanted Suggs, I wanted Suggs, it’s not fair. Masai is a big stupid head “ ??

[Mikistan]

Suggs is an insanely good player. I’m a huge fan of him regardless of us not picking him.

We will almost certainly regret taking him this year. Maybe not in 5 years. I think he was a no brainer pick and Masai and co decided to be cute. Time will tell.

…. Yea, that’s what happened .. it wasn’t cuz they truly believed that Barnes was the better prospect ( has many did, some even thinking Barnes could go top 2) it was BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO BE CUTE

Yes this is what I think. When Suggs was unanimously a top 4 prospect and Masai and Co decide to "ZAG" and pick Barnes, that is being cute. They talked themselves into their guy. Very cute, you went your own way and picked your guy. I did not say whether they were right or wrong. But it is unreasonable to argue that Suggs was not a clear top 4 prospect when every expert, mock draft, etc had him in the top 4.

Unanimous is false but keep telling yourself that

[Clay Davis]

Suggs being low ceiling and Barnes high ceiling is such a lazy narrative. Having a lot of room for growth and skill development doesn't automatically mean you have an incredible ceiling particularly if you are trying to use the complete outlier scenario of Barnes being Giannis.

For a guy playing his first pro game the intangibles/smarts and overall defensive impact Suggs showed was insane. You have guards in their 3rd or 4th year who struggle with all of this stuff. Barnes frame obviously gives him an advantage over Suggs, but I thought Suggs overall defensive performance was more impactful than what Barnes showed. It's literally taking the best of what Lowry/FVV provide, but in a 6'4 frame who is a plus athlete.

With Suggs he is on track to be in that lower tier all-star range, but if he makes the jump into a truly plus shooter or gets more creativity with his handle/finishing around the rim suddenly we are talking about an all-nba calibre guard. Barnes has obvious tools to be a great defensive player, but the gap he has to make up offensively compared to Suggs is gigantic. In my eyes it's much easier to envision Suggs developing into that quasi star than Barnes.

Ya, I never understood people putting a ceiling on a player since they were skilled coming into the league. Lots of players had their best years when their physicality leveled off and their skills developed. Hakeem, Kobe, Lebron, MJ all fit this mold. Larry Bird was an all-time great despite being a very middling athlete. Harden doesn't look like a great athlete but is one of the best scorers ever. Even Kawhi lacked extraordinary physical gifts (with the exception of his hands). The game is extremely complicated and subtle at the highest level; having a higher skill level coming into the league is as much of a sign of growth potential as having a genetically NBA-ready body. Interesting thing with Barnes and Suggs is that they both have elements of both, with obvious respective divergences.

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[720]

Duarte (he seems to be more impressive than Suggs, particularly blocking his man on the drive). I am not seeing how Suggs being so special, the previous Davion Mitchell highlight against Golden States showed he got more ability to get to the rim than Suggs.

Watch on YouTube

Wow, that was an impressive showing. Buts he’s 24 years old. Older than Malachi.