The truth about FVV

[Clutch0z24]

Freddys role here for so many years since he was a rookie has been an off ball spot up 3pt shooter who can occasionally handle the ball at time and give you instant offense off the bench.....

He came in with Lowry/DeMar who both had the ball in their hands for the most part....In the Championship run he was coming off the bench still and never really ran the offense or had to with Lowry here...

This is his first year playing a whole new role which he is clearly trying to still adjust to....Hes a score first guard who trys to play bigger than his size which sometimes leads to terrible decision making and wasted possessions but can also be the reason we win games.

Id say give him a chance to try and figure out running a team and being a Legit PG for his first year at doing so....Its not an easy Job to do and he needs more reps in getting comfortable at getting his team set up for the best shots out there....

Personally i think we would be a much better team if we had a true floor general and played FVV as a 6th man...I just think that role suits him better for his style of game

[gbball]

Fred would be a luxury to have as a 6th man. It's the perfect role for him. Then you have have Barnes, Banton or Flynn as our lead guard.

As a 6th man, Fred could come in and just do what he does and look to put points up. His ability to facilitate would be a bonus. But with guys like Siakam, OG and Trent who can all score, you need a pg who's instincts are to pass first. If we could start Barnes, Trent, OG, Siakam and then get an upgrade at centre and bring Fred of the bench, we'd be in great shape.

[vini_vidi_vici]

FVV is the only + differential in the SL.

Theres 4 others, Birch/Banton/Boucher/Flynn.

Dalanos on/off with FVV.
+18.1/-6.7

Boucher on/off with FVV.
+16.9/-12.7

Birch on/off with FVV.
+10.6/-2.2

Scottie/Precious too.

GTJ/Flynn/OG(im using individual on/off for them, not combined) has the team been better without FVV on, but all 3 have been team net positives with FVV aswell.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Fred would be a luxury to have as a 6th man. It's the perfect role for him. Then you have have Barnes, Banton or Flynn as our lead guard.

As a 6th man, Fred could come in and just do what he does and look to put points up. His ability to facilitate would be a bonus. But with guys like Siakam, OG and Trent who can all score, you need a pg who's instincts are to pass first. If we could start Barnes, Trent, OG, Siakam and then get an upgrade at centre and bring Fred of the bench, we'd be in great shape.

What???

[Oakvillehoops]

I don’t think Flynn/Banton are the replacements lmao. But I do agree that on a championship level team Fred belongs as an inconsistent 6th man X factor who will win you some games on shooting alone

[durka]

As much as Fred is a vet on this young team, he's also being put in the position of being the lead guard for the first time. I know people are quick to jump the gun on here and we've become accustomed to a high standard watching Lowry for years, but I think its fair to expect some growing pains. Considering he's improved every year here and he has a good head on his shoulders, I'm pretty confident he'll figure it out as time goes on.

[ConSarnit]

As much as Fred is a vet on this young team, he's also being put in the position of being the lead guard for the first time. I know people are quick to jump the gun on here and we've become accustomed to a high standard watching Lowry for years, but I think its fair to expect some growing pains. Considering he's improved every year here and he has a good head on his shoulders, I'm pretty confident he'll figure it out as time goes on.

Ideally he doesn’t have to figure it out but it’s a bonus if he does. FVV as a secondary creator can do everything we’d ask of him. Defend, spread the floor, secondary pnr action against a scrambling defense. That’s the perfect FVV role. If Scottie can become the primary creator that takes pressure off of FVV. Who knows when/if that will happen.

[gbball]

Fred would be a luxury to have as a 6th man. It's the perfect role for him. Then you have have Barnes, Banton or Flynn as our lead guard.

As a 6th man, Fred could come in and just do what he does and look to put points up. His ability to facilitate would be a bonus. But with guys like Siakam, OG and Trent who can all score, you need a pg who's instincts are to pass first. If we could start Barnes, Trent, OG, Siakam and then get an upgrade at centre and bring Fred of the bench, we'd be in great shape.

What???

I know it's unlikely, but sometimes you ask a starter to come off the bench for the benefit of the team. He's going to succeed in any role, and I think making him 6th man would take a lot of guts from the coaching staff. And it would make more sense than a guy like Trent doing it.

Flynn/Barnes/Banton aren't proven so I can see the questions there. But I did say he'd be a luxury because he'd immediately be one of the best 6th men in the league since he's already a solid starter. I'd say Iguadala is on par with Fred and he came off the bench for Golden State.

It would be purely for team chemistry. It'd also probably help Fred play less minutes and simplify his role and decision making when he's on the floor.

If we had more of a sure thing at point guard I'd argue more strongly for it, but I do believe that Flynn could space things out and keep the ball humming around to the other guys we have on the team who can score, while providing similar defense and not hurting the spacing, he's also more pick and roll reliant and a more skilled/willing passer and tends to play more uptempo. We'll see what this would look like if Fred gets hurt at some point. Banton is probably too raw, but he's been far better than I've expected so far and he'd give us a huge size advantage every game at point in the SL. Barnes because of his feel for the game and his potential there, but it would depend on how the team wants to develop him long term.

Not sure Fred would ever go for it, but it kills 2 birds with one stone. Reduce some of the log jam of ball dominant players in the SL and provides us with a potent weapon off the bench.

[Johnny Bball]

Fred would be a luxury to have as a 6th man. It's the perfect role for him. Then you have have Barnes, Banton or Flynn as our lead guard.

As a 6th man, Fred could come in and just do what he does and look to put points up. His ability to facilitate would be a bonus. But with guys like Siakam, OG and Trent who can all score, you need a pg who's instincts are to pass first. If we could start Barnes, Trent, OG, Siakam and then get an upgrade at centre and bring Fred of the bench, we'd be in great shape.

What???

I know it's unlikely, but sometimes you ask a starter to come off the bench for the benefit of the team. He's going to succeed in any role, and I think making him 6th man would take a lot of guts from the coaching staff. And it would make more sense than a guy like Trent doing it.

Flynn/Barnes/Banton aren't proven so I can see the questions there. But I did say he'd be a luxury because he'd immediately be one of the best 6th men in the league since he's already a solid starter. I'd say Iguadala is on par with Fred and he came off the bench for Golden State.

It would be purely for team chemistry. It'd also probably help Fred play less minutes and simplify his role and decision making when he's on the floor.

If we had more of a sure thing at point guard I'd argue more strongly for it, but I do believe that Flynn could space things out and keep the ball humming around to the other guys we have on the team who can score, while providing similar defense and not hurting the spacing, he's also more pick and roll reliant and a more skilled/willing passer and tends to play more uptempo. We'll see what this would look like if Fred gets hurt at some point. Banton is probably too raw, but he's been far better than I've expected so far and he'd give us a huge size advantage every game at point in the SL. Barnes because of his feel for the game and his potential there, but it would depend on how the team wants to develop him long term.

Not sure Fred would ever go for it, but it kills 2 birds with one stone. Reduce some of the log jam of ball dominant players in the SL and provides us with a potent weapon off the bench.

I just had a nap... did our players become ball dominant while I was asleeep, because they weren't when I lied down.

[canada_dry]

Missing so many assists thanks to precious horrible finishing too.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[Raps1103]

Fred would be a luxury to have as a 6th man. It's the perfect role for him. Then you have have Barnes, Banton or Flynn as our lead guard.

As a 6th man, Fred could come in and just do what he does and look to put points up. His ability to facilitate would be a bonus. But with guys like Siakam, OG and Trent who can all score, you need a pg who's instincts are to pass first. If we could start Barnes, Trent, OG, Siakam and then get an upgrade at centre and bring Fred of the bench, we'd be in great shape.

What???

I know it's unlikely, but sometimes you ask a starter to come off the bench for the benefit of the team. He's going to succeed in any role, and I think making him 6th man would take a lot of guts from the coaching staff. And it would make more sense than a guy like Trent doing it.

Flynn/Barnes/Banton aren't proven so I can see the questions there. But I did say he'd be a luxury because he'd immediately be one of the best 6th men in the league since he's already a solid starter. I'd say Iguadala is on par with Fred and he came off the bench for Golden State.

It would be purely for team chemistry. It'd also probably help Fred play less minutes and simplify his role and decision making when he's on the floor.

If we had more of a sure thing at point guard I'd argue more strongly for it, but I do believe that Flynn could space things out and keep the ball humming around to the other guys we have on the team who can score, while providing similar defense and not hurting the spacing, he's also more pick and roll reliant and a more skilled/willing passer and tends to play more uptempo. We'll see what this would look like if Fred gets hurt at some point. Banton is probably too raw, but he's been far better than I've expected so far and he'd give us a huge size advantage every game at point in the SL. Barnes because of his feel for the game and his potential there, but it would depend on how the team wants to develop him long term.

Not sure Fred would ever go for it, but it kills 2 birds with one stone. Reduce some of the log jam of ball dominant players in the SL and provides us with a potent weapon off the bench.

Imagine thinking this.. and at the same time, convince yourself you know anything about basketball ! What a joke !

[gbball]

What???

I know it's unlikely, but sometimes you ask a starter to come off the bench for the benefit of the team. He's going to succeed in any role, and I think making him 6th man would take a lot of guts from the coaching staff. And it would make more sense than a guy like Trent doing it.

Flynn/Barnes/Banton aren't proven so I can see the questions there. But I did say he'd be a luxury because he'd immediately be one of the best 6th men in the league since he's already a solid starter. I'd say Iguadala is on par with Fred and he came off the bench for Golden State.

It would be purely for team chemistry. It'd also probably help Fred play less minutes and simplify his role and decision making when he's on the floor.

If we had more of a sure thing at point guard I'd argue more strongly for it, but I do believe that Flynn could space things out and keep the ball humming around to the other guys we have on the team who can score, while providing similar defense and not hurting the spacing, he's also more pick and roll reliant and a more skilled/willing passer and tends to play more uptempo. We'll see what this would look like if Fred gets hurt at some point. Banton is probably too raw, but he's been far better than I've expected so far and he'd give us a huge size advantage every game at point in the SL. Barnes because of his feel for the game and his potential there, but it would depend on how the team wants to develop him long term.

Not sure Fred would ever go for it, but it kills 2 birds with one stone. Reduce some of the log jam of ball dominant players in the SL and provides us with a potent weapon off the bench.

Imagine thinking this.. and at the same time, convince yourself you know anything about basketball ! What a joke !

Unconventional doesn't equal wrong. Maybe you're too limited in your thinking.

[gbball]

What???

I know it's unlikely, but sometimes you ask a starter to come off the bench for the benefit of the team. He's going to succeed in any role, and I think making him 6th man would take a lot of guts from the coaching staff. And it would make more sense than a guy like Trent doing it.

Flynn/Barnes/Banton aren't proven so I can see the questions there. But I did say he'd be a luxury because he'd immediately be one of the best 6th men in the league since he's already a solid starter. I'd say Iguadala is on par with Fred and he came off the bench for Golden State.

It would be purely for team chemistry. It'd also probably help Fred play less minutes and simplify his role and decision making when he's on the floor.

If we had more of a sure thing at point guard I'd argue more strongly for it, but I do believe that Flynn could space things out and keep the ball humming around to the other guys we have on the team who can score, while providing similar defense and not hurting the spacing, he's also more pick and roll reliant and a more skilled/willing passer and tends to play more uptempo. We'll see what this would look like if Fred gets hurt at some point. Banton is probably too raw, but he's been far better than I've expected so far and he'd give us a huge size advantage every game at point in the SL. Barnes because of his feel for the game and his potential there, but it would depend on how the team wants to develop him long term.

Not sure Fred would ever go for it, but it kills 2 birds with one stone. Reduce some of the log jam of ball dominant players in the SL and provides us with a potent weapon off the bench.

I just had a nap... did our players become ball dominant while I was asleeep, because they weren't when I lied down.

Siakam, Fred, OG?

[johanliebert]

Freddys role here for so many years since he was a rookie has been an off ball spot up 3pt shooter who can occasionally handle the ball at time and give you instant offense off the bench.....

He came in with Lowry/DeMar who both had the ball in their hands for the most part....In the Championship run he was coming off the bench still and never really ran the offense or had to with Lowry here...

This is his first year playing a whole new role which he is clearly trying to still adjust to....Hes a score first guard who trys to play bigger than his size which sometimes leads to terrible decision making and wasted possessions but can also be the reason we win games.

Id say give him a chance to try and figure out running a team and being a Legit PG for his first year at doing so....Its not an easy Job to do and he needs more reps in getting comfortable at getting his team set up for the best shots out there....

Personally i think we would be a much better team if we had a true floor general and played FVV as a 6th man...I just think that role suits him better for his style of game

He was the lead guard off the bench his sophomore year and when kawhi left shared ball handling duties with lowry. There’s nothing about his game that translates to a 6th man role Fred gets his buckets out of the pick and roll.

Lowry was the spot up shooter last year not Fred.

[Johnny Bball]

I know it's unlikely, but sometimes you ask a starter to come off the bench for the benefit of the team. He's going to succeed in any role, and I think making him 6th man would take a lot of guts from the coaching staff. And it would make more sense than a guy like Trent doing it.

Flynn/Barnes/Banton aren't proven so I can see the questions there. But I did say he'd be a luxury because he'd immediately be one of the best 6th men in the league since he's already a solid starter. I'd say Iguadala is on par with Fred and he came off the bench for Golden State.

It would be purely for team chemistry. It'd also probably help Fred play less minutes and simplify his role and decision making when he's on the floor.

If we had more of a sure thing at point guard I'd argue more strongly for it, but I do believe that Flynn could space things out and keep the ball humming around to the other guys we have on the team who can score, while providing similar defense and not hurting the spacing, he's also more pick and roll reliant and a more skilled/willing passer and tends to play more uptempo. We'll see what this would look like if Fred gets hurt at some point. Banton is probably too raw, but he's been far better than I've expected so far and he'd give us a huge size advantage every game at point in the SL. Barnes because of his feel for the game and his potential there, but it would depend on how the team wants to develop him long term.

Not sure Fred would ever go for it, but it kills 2 birds with one stone. Reduce some of the log jam of ball dominant players in the SL and provides us with a potent weapon off the bench.

I just had a nap... did our players become ball dominant while I was asleeep, because they weren't when I lied down.

Siakam, Fred, OG?

They all have played off ball for years. Siakam as the second option in 2019 successfully, OG until now, Fred, half the time every year.

Doesn't mean they are ball dominant just because they can do other things will some success. The entire idea here is to have five players than can play defence, dribble, pass, shoot.

[gbball]

I just had a nap... did our players become ball dominant while I was asleeep, because they weren't when I lied down.

Siakam, Fred, OG?

They all have played off ball for years. Siakam as the second option in 2019 successfully, OG until now, Fred, half the time every year.

Doesn't mean they are ball dominant just because they can do other things will some success.

I can see that, but they're all trending in that direction.

What I'm suggesting is unconventional, but I'm an out of the box thinker and it would help to unrestrain some of our players and allow them to flourish in their roles. The other thing that I think would make sense would be to do hockey style line changes. Flynn, Banton maybe Barnes off the bench with one of Precious/Birch and one of Boucher, Yuta or Svi.

I'm not holding my breath, but keeping the starting lineup as is, is going to be a delicate balancing act. I know Fred will find a way to make it work, but I'm not convinced it's the optimal solution.

[tdotrep2]

the optimal thing for us would be letting scottie try to gain more experience handling the ball more with fred off it 60 pct of the time. at first it will be hard but in the long haul it would greatly benefit us. wont happen tho

[gbball]

I wouldn't mind seeing something like that either...

It's still so early and I do have a ton of faith in Fred. I'm definitely not a hater of his, but he's a product of the Derozan, Lowry, Kahwi era, and so his introduction to the NBA has been a bit old school.

I don't know that he's ready to fully anoint the young guys as the cornerstones of the franchise just yet, especially since he, OG and Siakam have been waiting for this moment. They all had to pay their dues and earn things the hard way, it's only natural for them to expect the next group to do the same...but these young guys are way ahead of schedule and so if feels like there's bit of power struggle.

At least that's the sense that I get...I don't fully mind it to be honest. It'll be good for the young guys if they do have to pay their dues to some extent and aren't given the keys too soon...I suspect eventually their play will become undeniable enough that some of our vets will have to adjust their roles for the good of the team. Very hard to do for players as hard working and with as much pride as Fred, Siakam and maybe to a lesser extent OG.

It can be argued that we can win games with each of Fred, OG, and Siakam averaging around 20 or more pts all while making cases for themselves as all-stars/all-nba and bumping up their earning potential. It's very hard for a youngish talented player to take a backseat or concede to a more talented up and coming player, especially when they're in the process of proving themselves.

Westbrook couldn't really do it with KD. Steph did it on GS with KD, but Monte couldn't do it with Steph. Dennis Smith Jr. couldn't do it with Luka. Wade did it in Miami with Lebron. Brown and Tatum are struggling with it in Boston. Usually, it's when players are older and they've got all the individual accolades and they only care about winning that they can sacrifice their own games for the good of the team without having any issues. KD, Harden, (Irving?). KG, Allen, Pierce.

Lowry went though this arc himself, where he had to let go of being the guy even when he was good enough to get us wins on his own. He did it to let Rudy and then Derozan shine initially, but eventually changed his game even more to get everyone else going. There was one year, where he really stopped caring about his own stats and fully embraced team ball (I think it was the bench mob year 2017/18), It was impressive to see how selfless and team first he became that year. That's who is to this day, but he had already been an all star, and he had already gotten all those accolades when he made that switch.

Fred is still trying to get those accolades...so is OG and I imagine Siakam too. Barnes seems like it's a question of when not if he'll be an all-star.

We haven't really had young super talents on this team...everyone's had to work for it. So this presents a bit of an existential crisis to our team's identity. What do we do with a player so young and so advanced? Fred is trying to negotiate that as the lead guard. Ensure those who've paid their dues get theirs (including himself) and also make sure the young guys get going a bit too.

So I think Fred can figure it out and navigate the balancing act, BUT, I think Barnes comes in with that let other guys shine mentality from the get go, so, IF he were the decision maker on the team, he'd be just as happy to get his teammates going and give all his shots to Fred, OG, Siakam, Trent and others so long as we're winning. He played with Cade and Vernon Carey in HS and they both were the stars of the team over him...Then in college, he could have gone anywhere he wanted and showcased is offensive game, but instead chose to go to a school that would allow him to play the point, so he could get better at getting others going and being the primary decision maker on a team. I think that speak volumes about what he values as a player.

Now on the Raptors, Nurse wants him to be a scorer, which he can do...but he's ideally suited to sacrifice his scoring and be the guy who gets other's going, in turn allowing his teammates to continue to flourish and mitigating any potential hierarchy issues.

That's how I see it...that's not what we're doing, but I hope there is a bigger plan in place.

[WaltFrazier]

Realistically Fred isn't going to be made a 6th man anytime soon. But with everyone healthy now (Yuta soon I hope), the answer is to play him fewer minutes. Same with OG. Work on different combinations, keep everyone fresher.

And find out who else can be a playmaker when Fred sits. Keep him fresher as I said, and also be ready because odds are he won't play 82 games.

[gbball]

Fred had a nice game against Philadelphia.

I'm seeing some things from him that are encouraging. He's giving the ball up sooner...and it's coming back to him. There were a few possessions where he brought it up and quickly passed to Barnes, who would then survey the situation and make a decision. At the end, they let OG make plays and the ball found it's way to Fred for the game deciding 3.

If he can learn to trust his teammates more and be strategic about who to give the ball to (guys who are good playmakers/decision makers) that would be great.

I also saw him talking to Barnes after he made a quick pass to a teammate that wasn't paying attention for a turnover. That's good leadership.

Overall, I was happy to see play more to his strengths last game.