Has it not become overwhelmingly clear (even to management) it's time to blow this up?

[HomieOmey]

Honestly, I'm equally surprised by so many other teams too. Can't believe Chicago has done absolutely nothing this year.

[DelAbbot]

From today's game, after seeing coaching staff riding starters for 40+ minutes, I don't see a sign that Raptors are tanking of in anyway.

That means nothing.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202104240NYK.html

Look at this game during our Tampa season purposefully losing after trading away Norm. Pascal (40), FVV (40), OG(38), Lowry(36) all played big mins.

[Appostis]

From today's game, after seeing coaching staff riding starters for 40+ minutes, I don't see a sign that Raptors are tanking of in anyway.

That means nothing.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202104240NYK.html

Look at this game during our Tampa season purposefully losing after trading away Norm. Pascal (40), FVV (40), OG(38), Lowry(36) all played big mins.

Team is one starter or high use player away from winning or losing an additional 10+ games.

Remove FVV or another starter and.. lottery

[microjacklin]

Everyone is a future superstar in the draft. The draft sells hope then reality kicks in. LOL.

Thad Young sells hope! Those leadership qualities really coming in handy this year! Look how great the team is doing without tanking! Better than OKC!

Luckily we got him for free then. Masai and Bobby nailed it. They said there was very little difference between guys at 15 and guys at 35. Turned out to be right. Don't think they are losing any sleep over not drafting Malaki Branham and Christian Braun. LOL.

Just because Masai and Bobby is doing good doesn't mean they are doing 100% correct
look at Walker Kessler draft at "22th", who become a stud in recently
we get chance if not trade down.

[TGM]

I think trading Fred and GTJ is a no brainer, even support guys like Boucher should be available at the right price. I think Barnes and Siakim you try to keep, and OG if you get a kings ransom you pay.

We need to take a page out of Utah, Cleveland, OKC. How those guys rebuilt were by absorbing contracts of underperforming young players. Allen was sort of a salary dump to the Cavs. Markannen was another dump, same goes for Chris Paul.

I personally think Westbrook still has some good stuff in the tank, just needs to be in the right situation.

One guy I think a lot of people will be shocked, but could get dealt is Klay Thomson and Draymond. If the Warriors are sub 500 come trade deadline, I think the youth movement begins. Curry, Wiggins probably stay, the other two they probably trade. But I don't see the Ws doing a rebuild, I think they pull a Manchester selling Beckham near the tail end of his prime and maybe try to do like Klay for OG types of trade.

[redeye514]

Against my better judgement, I’m going to weigh into this thread.

A couple quick general comments:

1. Show me 1 single team that has won the chip using tanking as their primary building block.. just one… hint, they don’t exist.

2. Posters who are calling for Masais firing have put their stupidity on display for all to see. There really is no rebuttal worth replying with.

As for the what this thread is asking, should we ‘blow it up’? What does that even mean? We have 5 players worth talking about that fall into 3 tiers that I think most agree with:

Tier 1. Scotty, the one thing this bord agrees with is that we’re not trading Scotty.

Tier 2. Siakam / OG, most agree these guys should only be dealt for significant star like price tags, as such, that would be an off season trade, not mid season.

Tier 3. FVV / GTJ, most agree these are the 2 most likely to get dealt for varying reasons, and I don’t think any poster is losing sleep if they do…

so again, what does ‘blow it up’ mean? Trade Siakam / OG just for anything asap? Just because we’re impatient? Come on…

My 2 cents on what we should do:

I think Siakam / OG / Barnes is a solid SOLID core 3 that are all young enough to continue and grow together. As much as people say Siakam is ‘old’.. he’s going to be a top 20 player for the next 5 years, so he’s not falling off a cliff anytime soon. I would throw Precious and Koloko into that core 3 because of their age and defensive upside. I know the quick rebuttal is ‘if they’re so solid, why’s our record this?’..

It’s no secret what this team needs.. 1. A legit rim protecting C who boards and in an ideal world can hit an open 3 (Raps have been rumour linked to these player types for 3 years now).. and 2. An elite 3&D point guard can bury triples at a 40-45% clip, but doesn’t need to ball hawk. I think it’s important to note that PG & Cs are the 2 most important positions on D.. it’s your pickup point on the oppositions offence, and your last line of defence.. so it’s no wonder our D has been trash this year, despite having a lot of plus defenders on the wings. Fred’s getting blown by regularly, and we have zero rim protection. We just can’t win with our D faltering this badly. If we fix our PG / C spots, then this team looks a whole lot better even without adding a true star… I’m not saying championship level good, but second round+ good. I think the team can get to this level with some tweaking / reallocation of assets, FVV/GTJ/Boucher in particular.. and do so while still maintaining their draft capital for the true ‘level up’ trade down the rod, when the next big star becomes available, which (assuming PG/C is fixed) puts us back into championship contention.

As disappointing as this season has been, there is no need to overreact and ‘blow it up’.. trading away an all nba talent in Siakam.. trading away young stud talent in OG… firing Masai… as many have suggested in here. That’s just foolish.

[microjacklin]

Against my better judgement, I’m going to weigh into this thread.

A couple quick general comments:

1. Show me 1 single team that has won the chip using tanking as their primary building block.. just one… hint, they don’t exist.

Uh......
GSW let B.Davis go after they get 48win but still no playoff seasaon and get Curry at 7th, then after they get Klay at 11th and dump Monta Ellis to give the key to Curry

Don't let me say SAS get T.Duncan and Cavs get LBJ at 1st, both are the reason their team become competitve for long term

Face the fact,
talent matter in NBA,
that's why NBA players get paid bigger than other professional sport in US
the chance you want to get champion by a bunch of 2nd rounder and undraft player as your core are super rare.

[Ell Curry]

Honestly, I'm equally surprised by so many other teams too. Can't believe Chicago has done absolutely nothing this year.

I bet on that. They seemed like a classic regression candidate.

[ItsDanger]

A casual observer from business standpoint would look at the Raptors and conclude management needs to be removed, why isn't action being taken in this situation. If you're honest that is.

Of all the ridiculous posts I've read...

Sent from my SM-G973W using RealGM Forums mobile app

Well, they got a great opportunity to prove me wrong. Pick a direction or make more mistakes.

[Harold_and_Kumar]

Against my better judgement, I’m going to weigh into this thread.

A couple quick general comments:

1. Show me 1 single team that has won the chip using tanking as their primary building block.. just one… hint, they don’t exist.

2. Posters who are calling for Masais firing have put their stupidity on display for all to see. There really is no rebuttal worth replying with.

As for the what this thread is asking, should we ‘blow it up’? What does that even mean? We have 5 players worth talking about that fall into 3 tiers that I think most agree with:

Tier 1. Scotty, the one thing this bord agrees with is that we’re not trading Scotty.

Tier 2. Siakam / OG, most agree these guys should only be dealt for significant star like price tags, as such, that would be an off season trade, not mid season.

Tier 3. FVV / GTJ, most agree these are the 2 most likely to get dealt for varying reasons, and I don’t think any poster is losing sleep if they do…

so again, what does ‘blow it up’ mean? Trade Siakam / OG just for anything asap? Just because we’re impatient? Come on…

My 2 cents on what we should do:

I think Siakam / OG / Barnes is a solid SOLID core 3 that are all young enough to continue and grow together. As much as people say Siakam is ‘old’.. he’s going to be a top 20 player for the next 5 years, so he’s not falling off a cliff anytime soon. I would throw Precious and Koloko into that core 3 because of their age and defensive upside. I know the quick rebuttal is ‘if they’re so solid, why’s our record this?’..

It’s no secret what this team needs.. 1. A legit rim protecting C who boards and in an ideal world can hit an open 3 (Raps have been rumour linked to these player types for 3 years now).. and 2. An elite 3&D point guard can bury triples at a 40-45% clip, but doesn’t need to ball hawk. I think it’s important to note that PG & Cs are the 2 most important positions on D.. it’s your pickup point on the oppositions offence, and your last line of defence.. so it’s no wonder our D has been trash this year, despite having a lot of plus defenders on the wings. Fred’s getting blown by regularly, and we have zero rim protection. We just can’t win with our D faltering this badly. If we fix our PG / C spots, then this team looks a whole lot better even without adding a true star… I’m not saying championship level good, but second round+ good. I think the team can get to this level with some tweaking / reallocation of assets, FVV/GTJ/Boucher in particular.. and do so while still maintaining their draft capital for the true ‘level up’ trade down the rod, when the next big star becomes available, which (assuming PG/C is fixed) puts us back into championship contention.

As disappointing as this season has been, there is no need to overreact and ‘blow it up’.. trading away an all nba talent in Siakam.. trading away young stud talent in OG… firing Masai… as many have suggested in here. That’s just foolish.

On the surface your argument seems reasonable, but there's a major hole in it.

You make it seem easy to flip our middling assets into new assets that make us a conference finals team. Why do you think we've been rumoured for years to covet, but haven't acquired a rim protecting centre who shoots threes or a PG that shoots 40-45% from 3 and plays great on-ball defense? Turns out that these players are pretty valuable (read: commonly all-stars), don't get traded often, and would require an overpay.

So how do you expect us to acquire these pieces without trading Siakam, Scottie, or OG, Precious, or Koloko, and without selecting high in the draft or trading future picks? If there was a path to doing so, Masai would have.

While I trust Bobby/Masai to make the right moves moving forward, it's also fair to say they've had a poor couple of years (Scottie aside) and fans are rightly asking for roster change. It's reasonable to not see a clear direction with this team as it's currently constructed. We're trying to win now, riding our starters for 38 mins a night, and we're not even a play-in team! That's not normal. Also, the product we're watching is trash most nights - this team plays archaic basketball.

Where I agree is that I don't see a full teardown. We have some good assets, we just need to use them effectively to retool into a younger team with a higher ceiling of growth. In my eyes, that could mean we trade anyone minus Scottie for the best value in return. There's risk to tanking, but there's also risk to staying the course and hoping for another Kawhi to fall in your lap, and we're seeing it.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Uh......
GSW let B.Davis go after they get 48win but still no playoff seasaon and get Curry at 7th, then after they get Klay at 11th and dump Monta Ellis to give the key to Curry

Baron Davis left to go play at home in LAC. I don't think the Warriors let him go. They tried to win the following season by replacing Baron with Jamal Crawford. It didn't go well, there were injuries and then they leaned into improving their draft slot and landed Steph. Steph's rookie year they definitely were shipping out money and old players, but building with Monta-Steph as their new core. That tank season gave them Ekpe Udoh, so it really was just a waste. They signed David Lee, Dorrell Wright and tried to just outscore everyone, and then two seasons of that not working out resulted in drafting Klay in the late lotto. So I'm not sure I'd call this intentional tanking or rebuilding leading to a title. They just stunk and then got smart about a new way to win titles in the NBA, and over several seasons and management teams and coaches their offense was supporting by great defense.

[redeye514]

Against my better judgement, I’m going to weigh into this thread.

A couple quick general comments:

1. Show me 1 single team that has won the chip using tanking as their primary building block.. just one… hint, they don’t exist.

Uh......
GSW let B.Davis go after they get 48win but still no playoff seasaon and get Curry at 7th, then after they get Klay at 11th and dump Monta Ellis to give the key to Curry

Don't let me say SAS get T.Duncan and Cavs get LBJ at 1st, both are the reason their team become competitve for long term

Face the fact,
talent matter in NBA,
that's why NBA players get paid bigger than other professional sport in US
the chance you want to get champion by a bunch of 2nd rounder and undraft player as your core are super rare.

I hope you appreciate the irony of your post, highlighting GSW and Spurs as 2 examples of teams that adopted Tanking as a viable strategy and it working out. In fact, they are the EXACT OPPOSITE of that, lol... they are 2 examples that show how Team Compete works, lol. 2 of the 3 great dynasties in our generation, neither of them tanked,

Start with GSW. They have always been compete compete compete.. the year they got Curry, they had Ellis, Crawford, Jackson, Maggette, Biedrins, Bellinelli... AKA, seasoned guys trying to make the make playoffs! they just weren't that good in a stacked west and finished 10th!! Or in other words 'the scary middle'.... How on gods green earth is that tanking? The year before that, they finished 9th.. the year before that they finished 8th, and infamously knocked of the MAvs in Round 1.. GSW has ALWAYS been about competing. Even the core 3 of their dynasty, outside of Curry at 7, none were drafted in the top 10?!?! Green was drafted in the second round for gods sake... sorry man, GSW does nothing but prove my point, not yours.

As for Spurs, again, another prime example of a team that did NOT tear down a single darn thing, and built a dynasty through competition and instilling a winning mindset. Spurs 95/96.. finish second in West with a team full of legit players.. Robinson, Elliot, Avery, Del Negro, Perdue... 96/97, Robinson goes down and their seasons goes down the toilet, yet they do NOT trade any of these guys.. they get Duncan. 97/98, Duncan joins a team that still has Elliot, Avery, Del NEgro, PErdue, of course Robinson, and they're back in the playoffs. They never say 'ah, we've got a new timeline with Duncan, lets go tell Duncan that were going to trade everyone for draft capital and tell him its ok to lose for a couple more years so we can tank, cause thats the only way we can get talent and surround him with a bunch of kids'... nope, it was the opposite, it was 'lets go!! lets get it!! lets compete!!!' The 2 remaining pillars of the Spurs / Duncan Dynasty, Parker and Ginobli, were acquired while competing, drafted 28th and 57th!!!

Man, some of ya'll posts are hilarious.. trying to turn 2 franchises who embody competition and winning, and trying to use them as
an example of teams that blew it up and embodied a tanking mentality? Magical stuff, really.

And not once did I say we can build a team with a bunch of second rounders and undrafted players, so stop the nonsense.

I think you should face the fact, there has been no team in NBA history that has taken the approach of 'blow it all up, lets tank for years' and done anything remotely impressive. Facts.

[ItsDanger]

Well if we don't tank and end up with a pick around 5th, that's not a bad outcome. Ridiculous arguments. Go look at the spread in win totals at the bottom for your alleged non tanking seasons.

[redeye514]

Against my better judgement, I’m going to weigh into this thread.

A couple quick general comments:

1. Show me 1 single team that has won the chip using tanking as their primary building block.. just one… hint, they don’t exist.

2. Posters who are calling for Masais firing have put their stupidity on display for all to see. There really is no rebuttal worth replying with.

As for the what this thread is asking, should we ‘blow it up’? What does that even mean? We have 5 players worth talking about that fall into 3 tiers that I think most agree with:

Tier 1. Scotty, the one thing this bord agrees with is that we’re not trading Scotty.

Tier 2. Siakam / OG, most agree these guys should only be dealt for significant star like price tags, as such, that would be an off season trade, not mid season.

Tier 3. FVV / GTJ, most agree these are the 2 most likely to get dealt for varying reasons, and I don’t think any poster is losing sleep if they do…

so again, what does ‘blow it up’ mean? Trade Siakam / OG just for anything asap? Just because we’re impatient? Come on…

My 2 cents on what we should do:

I think Siakam / OG / Barnes is a solid SOLID core 3 that are all young enough to continue and grow together. As much as people say Siakam is ‘old’.. he’s going to be a top 20 player for the next 5 years, so he’s not falling off a cliff anytime soon. I would throw Precious and Koloko into that core 3 because of their age and defensive upside. I know the quick rebuttal is ‘if they’re so solid, why’s our record this?’..

It’s no secret what this team needs.. 1. A legit rim protecting C who boards and in an ideal world can hit an open 3 (Raps have been rumour linked to these player types for 3 years now).. and 2. An elite 3&D point guard can bury triples at a 40-45% clip, but doesn’t need to ball hawk. I think it’s important to note that PG & Cs are the 2 most important positions on D.. it’s your pickup point on the oppositions offence, and your last line of defence.. so it’s no wonder our D has been trash this year, despite having a lot of plus defenders on the wings. Fred’s getting blown by regularly, and we have zero rim protection. We just can’t win with our D faltering this badly. If we fix our PG / C spots, then this team looks a whole lot better even without adding a true star… I’m not saying championship level good, but second round+ good. I think the team can get to this level with some tweaking / reallocation of assets, FVV/GTJ/Boucher in particular.. and do so while still maintaining their draft capital for the true ‘level up’ trade down the rod, when the next big star becomes available, which (assuming PG/C is fixed) puts us back into championship contention.

As disappointing as this season has been, there is no need to overreact and ‘blow it up’.. trading away an all nba talent in Siakam.. trading away young stud talent in OG… firing Masai… as many have suggested in here. That’s just foolish.

On the surface your argument seems reasonable, but there's a major hole in it.

You make it seem easy to flip our middling assets into new assets that make us a conference finals team. Why do you think we've been rumoured for years to covet, but haven't acquired a rim protecting centre who shoots threes or a PG that shoots 40-45% from 3 and plays great on-ball defense? Turns out that these players are pretty valuable (read: commonly all-stars), don't get traded often, and would require an overpay.

So how do you expect us to acquire these pieces without trading Siakam, Scottie, or OG, Precious, or Koloko, and without selecting high in the draft or trading future picks? If there was a path to doing so, Masai would have.

While I trust Bobby/Masai to make the right moves moving forward, it's also fair to say they've had a poor couple of years (Scottie aside) and fans are rightly asking for roster change. It's reasonable to not see a clear direction with this team as it's currently constructed. We're trying to win now, riding our starters for 38 mins a night, and we're not even a play-in team! That's not normal. Also, the product we're watching is trash most nights - this team plays archaic basketball.

Where I agree is that I don't see a full teardown. We have some good assets, we just need to use them effectively to retool into a younger team with a higher ceiling of growth. In my eyes, that could mean we trade anyone minus Scottie for the best value in return. There's risk to tanking, but there's also risk to staying the course and hoping for another Kawhi to fall in your lap, and we're seeing it.

Im not here to absolve management of everything, but fact remains the raps had 2 of the worst years of luck post championship (bubble and Tampa), then finished top 5, and now here we are in one of our more disappointing seasons in recent history. It is what it is, but that sports man.

In terms of solving the PG/C problem, again, I dont know.. I dont whats out there or what they've looked at. My inclination is that they felt FVV was going to be better than this and a potential long term fit, now has this year changed their opinion? I dunno.. but FVV's porous perimeter defense and cold shooting is the exact opposite of what this team needs. I still think FVV has league wide value, so maybe there is a piece we can get with him via trade. As for C, Raps have long been connected with players that I think would be difference makers to this squad, specifically the core 3 I identified.. Claxton.. Jarret Allen... Poetle.. but we always see to be a day late or a dollar short. But they clearly see a flaw in roster construct and want to get a solution there, and personally, Im not going to be overly upset that they dont compound the issue by trying to make a long term commitment to a C solution that isnt the right fit. Im fine being patient and trust that they have some guys in mind to go after, and are essentially treading water till the right piece comes along. Regardless point is that I think / hope that we have enough asset value in the likes of FVV / GTJ / Boucher / Expirings to remedy atleast one of these 2 roster flaws, hopefully both. IF we do, then were right in the competitive mix again with enough draft capital in the war chest to improve further. Blowing it all up.. stripping the team to Scotty.. makes no sense to me.

[microjacklin]

Against my better judgement, I’m going to weigh into this thread.

A couple quick general comments:

1. Show me 1 single team that has won the chip using tanking as their primary building block.. just one… hint, they don’t exist.

Uh......
GSW let B.Davis go after they get 48win but still no playoff seasaon and get Curry at 7th, then after they get Klay at 11th and dump Monta Ellis to give the key to Curry

Don't let me say SAS get T.Duncan and Cavs get LBJ at 1st, both are the reason their team become competitve for long term

Face the fact,
talent matter in NBA,
that's why NBA players get paid bigger than other professional sport in US
the chance you want to get champion by a bunch of 2nd rounder and undraft player as your core are super rare.

I hope you appreciate the irony of your post, highlighting GSW and Spurs as 2 examples of teams that adopted Tanking as a viable strategy and it working out. In fact, they are the EXACT OPPOSITE of that, lol... they are 2 examples that show how Team Compete works, lol. 2 of the 3 great dynasties in our generation, neither of them tanked,

Start with GSW. They have always been compete compete compete.. the year they got Curry, they had Ellis, Crawford, Jackson, Maggette, Biedrins, Bellinelli... AKA, seasoned guys trying to make the make playoffs! they just weren't that good in a stacked west and finished 10th!! Or in other words 'the scary middle'.... How on gods green earth is that tanking? The year before that, they finished 9th.. the year before that they finished 8th, and infamously knocked of the MAvs in Round 1.. GSW has ALWAYS been about competing. Even the core 3 of their dynasty, outside of Curry at 7, none were drafted in the top 10?!?! Green was drafted in the second round for gods sake... sorry man, GSW does nothing but prove my point, not yours.

As for Spurs, again, another prime example of a team that did NOT tear down a single darn thing, and built a dynasty through competition and instilling a winning mindset. Spurs 95/96.. finish second in West with a team full of legit players.. Robinson, Elliot, Avery, Del Negro, Perdue... 96/97, Robinson goes down and their seasons goes down the toilet, yet they do NOT trade any of these guys.. they get Duncan. 97/98, Duncan joins a team that still has Elliot, Avery, Del NEgro, PErdue, of course Robinson, and they're back in the playoffs. They never say 'ah, we've got a new timeline with Duncan, lets go tell Duncan that were going to trade everyone for draft capital and tell him its ok to lose for a couple more years so we can tank, cause thats the only way we can get talent and surround him with a bunch of kids'... nope, it was the opposite, it was 'lets go!! lets get it!! lets compete!!!' The 2 remaining pillars of the Spurs / Duncan Dynasty, Parker and Ginobli, were acquired while competing, drafted 28th and 57th!!!

Man, some of ya'll posts are hilarious.. trying to turn 2 franchises who embody competition and winning, and trying to use them as
an example of teams that blew it up and embodied a tanking mentality? Magical stuff, really.

And not once did I say we can build a team with a bunch of second rounders and undrafted players, so stop the nonsense.

I think you should face the fact, there has been no team in NBA history that has taken the approach of 'blow it all up, lets tank for years' and done anything remotely impressive. Facts.

I think it's just different meaning of tank between you and me
A lot of people here say "tank" doesn't really mean "sell everyone".
you keep the valuable pieces and player still play to win on the court,
but not like current Nurse "I like to ride every starter >40mins per game" to fake how good we are
If this team structure is bad, then let it bad

GSW only have one season more than 36wins during 08~12,
the others are all below 30wins.
well that sure is "competitive"
And please don't ignore Spurs get T.Duncan "at 1st" when they only get 20wins that season (I know it's injury)

[StopitLeo]

I don't know why everyone thinks it is going to be a "5 year re-build", especially if you have faith in Bobby and Masai? OKC started really tanking in 2020-21 and now 2.5 years later they are starting to turn the corner and look like a really fun and promising up coming team. You could also argue that Toronto could get as much - or a better return - for Siakim/FVV/OG/Trent as OKC got for George/Paul/Westbrook.

I agree. A lot of people think a re-build is easy. Look at Philly and "The Process". They started tanking in 2013-2014. Since then they managed to get two #1 picks and two #3 picks but they still haven't made it past the conference semi-finals. So 10 years, 4 top 3 picks, and the best they have achieved is a 2nd round exit even with a legit MVP level player on the roster.

Blowing it up doesn't make sense. We have lucked into Pascal becoming an All-NBA player and we were very fortunate to get Scottie. I think an approach like Boston when they transitioned from Hayward and Kyrie to Tatum and Brown is a better strategy. We should trade guys like Fred, Gary, and OG to acquire as many young prospects and picks to give us more chances to hit on a star while hoping Scottie continues to improve to an All-Star+ level.

Management should move on from this group and look to put a new mix of guys around Pascal and Scottie.

[Harold_and_Kumar]

Against my better judgement, I’m going to weigh into this thread.

A couple quick general comments:

1. Show me 1 single team that has won the chip using tanking as their primary building block.. just one… hint, they don’t exist.

Uh......
GSW let B.Davis go after they get 48win but still no playoff seasaon and get Curry at 7th, then after they get Klay at 11th and dump Monta Ellis to give the key to Curry

Don't let me say SAS get T.Duncan and Cavs get LBJ at 1st, both are the reason their team become competitve for long term

Face the fact,
talent matter in NBA,
that's why NBA players get paid bigger than other professional sport in US
the chance you want to get champion by a bunch of 2nd rounder and undraft player as your core are super rare.

I hope you appreciate the irony of your post, highlighting GSW and Spurs as 2 examples of teams that adopted Tanking as a viable strategy and it working out. In fact, they are the EXACT OPPOSITE of that, lol... they are 2 examples that show how Team Compete works, lol. 2 of the 3 great dynasties in our generation, neither of them tanked,

Start with GSW. They have always been compete compete compete.. the year they got Curry, they had Ellis, Crawford, Jackson, Maggette, Biedrins, Bellinelli... AKA, seasoned guys trying to make the make playoffs! they just weren't that good in a stacked west and finished 10th!! Or in other words 'the scary middle'.... How on gods green earth is that tanking? The year before that, they finished 9th.. the year before that they finished 8th, and infamously knocked of the MAvs in Round 1.. GSW has ALWAYS been about competing. Even the core 3 of their dynasty, outside of Curry at 7, none were drafted in the top 10?!?! Green was drafted in the second round for gods sake... sorry man, GSW does nothing but prove my point, not yours.

As for Spurs, again, another prime example of a team that did NOT tear down a single darn thing, and built a dynasty through competition and instilling a winning mindset. Spurs 95/96.. finish second in West with a team full of legit players.. Robinson, Elliot, Avery, Del Negro, Perdue... 96/97, Robinson goes down and their seasons goes down the toilet, yet they do NOT trade any of these guys.. they get Duncan. 97/98, Duncan joins a team that still has Elliot, Avery, Del NEgro, PErdue, of course Robinson, and they're back in the playoffs. They never say 'ah, we've got a new timeline with Duncan, lets go tell Duncan that were going to trade everyone for draft capital and tell him its ok to lose for a couple more years so we can tank, cause thats the only way we can get talent and surround him with a bunch of kids'... nope, it was the opposite, it was 'lets go!! lets get it!! lets compete!!!' The 2 remaining pillars of the Spurs / Duncan Dynasty, Parker and Ginobli, were acquired while competing, drafted 28th and 57th!!!

Man, some of ya'll posts are hilarious.. trying to turn 2 franchises who embody competition and winning, and trying to use them as
an example of teams that blew it up and embodied a tanking mentality? Magical stuff, really.

And not once did I say we can build a team with a bunch of second rounders and undrafted players, so stop the nonsense.

I think you should face the fact, there has been no team in NBA history that has taken the approach of 'blow it all up, lets tank for years' and done anything remotely impressive. Facts.

His argument was poor, but your conclusion isn't all that sound either. I feel like the disconnect is in the definition of 'tanking.' Tanking can happen over a single season (ala the Tampa Bay Raptors, Spurs, etc.), or over several years (ala OKC, Hinkie). We also really narrow the definition when we look simply at 'who won the NBA title' and instead I think we need to expand to look at how contenders in general are built.

Also, it's wrong to say tear-downs haven't worked. What about the Cavs pre-Lebron - they were 17 and 65 before they won the lottery and drafted LeBron. The four seasons before that, all under .400WP. What did it get them - a generational talent who took them to several finals appearances, and a title. More if LeBron would have stayed. Another example, the OKC Thunder were awful before their conference finals and title appearances with Durant, Harden, and Russ. Additionally, several teardowns are due to ownership and front offices who can't win even when they want to (think Sacramento, Orlando, Charlotte), teams that have no semblance to our situation in Toronto.

I'd argue the current OKC is a great example of tanking working. I'd rather be them than Chicago or Washington moving forward (and we're not so far off being one of those teams ourselves). There's no excitement in being a fan of those two teams. Not every team waiting for a seismic move, or who make win-now moves are going to win a championship either. Even our title could have looked like a waste of an asset had a bounce or two gone differently, and we'd have likely been rebuilding a year later! Every circumstance is different.

In general, most teams can point to a lottery pick as the reason they've made their finals appearance. Had we won a coin flip or lost another game, we may have had Curry. Had we been worse, Masai would've drafted Giannis ahead of the Bucks. So while there's anecdotal examples either way, but it's clear that the higher you pick, the better chance you have of turning your franchise around quickly. With a good scouting FO, even better.

We aren't the Lakers, Celtics, or Heat. Those teams have natural advantages we don't - be it weather, taxes, legacy, visibility, etc. We need to approach things a bit differently. So yes, making trades is one example where we've had success and won a title, but that seems to have dried up lately with Masai's past track record, so I would hope they don't just wait forever and try a new approach. At some point we won't have the assets to make the trades anyway if they continue to depreciate.

All in all, my point is that we can argue approaches forever on end. To me, the key is simply selecting a pathway - is it building around Barnes/Siakam/OG/Fred/2023 FRP for the next 3 years, or around Barnes/2023 FRP and all the young talent and picks we'd accrue from trading Siakam/OG/Fred. I don't want to watch this **** basketball for five years waiting for a trade to happen that may give us one shot at a title. I think that's more irresponsible.

[HomieOmey]

Honestly, I'm equally surprised by so many other teams too. Can't believe Chicago has done absolutely nothing this year.

I bet on that. They seemed like a classic regression candidate.

Oh sorry, I meant I'm surprised they haven't made any changes considering the season they are having. I know they might lose their draft pick, which probably worries them a bit about blowing it up, but what's even the point of their season at this point? Or if they actually do want to try to win more, what's taking them so long to make some sort of positive change (other than them already regretting the last time they traded for immediate gains)?

[Aliasego]

Nobody is happy with the current situation. The place the team is in is actually pretty promising already. We are short a C. This off-season has multiple younger free agent C’s that potentially fit our system (Turner, Bamba, Poeltl). The team is also short on guards, preferably with size. Our draft pick is likely pretty high, and the draft is filled with large guards.

Sure there’s contacts to figure out, and possible money concerns (if we did dip into free agency), but they aren’t huge unsolvable problems. There’s no huge unmovable contract on the roster. The question marks (FVV, GTjr) are easily moveable if needed.

I expect things will look a lot better in 6 months.

[TravisScott55]

With the prices they are charging for tickets I feel like MLSE told the front office they can't do a full rebuild.