Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9

[tsherkin]

In my defence, I was specifically commenting on that particular game

Fair, but even still. You picked two misses and only one of them could reasonably be Scottie's fault unless you're complaining that he isn't already elite.

Maybe my brain is focusing on his misses more than his makes overall, I just have memories of him constantly missing shots around the rim that should be easy buckets, he is doing significantly better this year than the other 3, so maybe it's not super relevant this season .

We remember what we focus on more readily, no doubt. He has some awkward shots here and there, but he's also trying to create without a lot of help a lot of the time. In the teeth of the defense, typically in a crowded paint, so such things happen. His actual finishing percentage is pretty excellent. Once you get outside the RA (where both of those misses happen), it's a little different than "finishing at the rim," of course, but even there, he's doing well enough.

There's lots of stuff to grill Scottie on with respect to his scoring, but I don't think this is it, to be honest.

[Scase]

In my defence, I was specifically commenting on that particular game

Fair, but even still. You picked two misses and only one of them could reasonably be Scottie's fault unless you're complaining that he isn't already elite.

Maybe my brain is focusing on his misses more than his makes overall, I just have memories of him constantly missing shots around the rim that should be easy buckets, he is doing significantly better this year than the other 3, so maybe it's not super relevant this season .

We remember what we focus on more readily, no doubt. He has some awkward shots here and there, but he's also trying to create without a lot of help a lot of the time. In the teeth of the defense, typically in a crowded paint, so such things happen. His actual finishing percentage is pretty excellent. Once you get outside the RA (where both of those misses happen), it's a little different than "finishing at the rim," of course, but even there, he's doing well enough.

There's lots of stuff to grill Scottie on with respect to his scoring, but I don't think this is it, to be honest.

Ehh, the pass could have been better for sure, but he had the ball in his hands less than a foot away from the rim. I think he should have been able to convert it.


I'm not going to burn him at the stake for missing shots at the rim, but as I mentioned before, his previous seasons were not at the same success rate he's at this year. He shot 68% at the rim a season and a half ago, so that's probably still fresh enough in my mind I guess. Being above league average is great to hear, I honestly wouldn't have guessed that, I would like to know how ranks in relation to forwards vs the whole league.

Best I can sort from NBA.com is 0-5ft win min 120 FGA, has him 12th among forwards at 70.3%. Still pretty solid for sure. Sadly the biggest takeaway I have from that breakdown is that RJ is ranked 49th out of 51 eligible players with 58.1% which I would've suspected to be higher.

[tsherkin]

Ehh, the pass could have been better for sure, but he had the ball in his hands less than a foot away from the rim. I think he should have been able to convert it.

Watch your clip of where he actually caught it, what momentum was doing and all that. I don't really agree with you, I think that was a fairly challenging shot for him and he didn't get up high at ALL on his jump, which affected things.

I'm not going to burn him at the stake for missing shots at the rim, but as I mentioned before, his previous seasons were not at the same success rate he's at this year. He shot 68% at the rim a season and a half ago, so that's probably still fresh enough in my mind I guess. Being above league average is great to hear, I honestly wouldn't have guessed that, I would like to know how ranks in relation to forwards vs the whole league.

He was at 73.3% from 0-3 last year. 68.5% the year before and 71.1% as a rookie. I think you're underselling him some.

Best I can sort from NBA.com is 0-5ft win min 120 FGA, has him 12th among forwards at 70.3%.

Again, keep in mind, that opens things up outside of the RA quite a bit, and into hook shot range, where 45%+ is above average.

Scottie isn't elite, no doubt, but he does alright. Expecting too much more of him very quickly delves into "expecting him to be elite" territory, which we should be beyond at this stage.

[Scase]

Ehh, the pass could have been better for sure, but he had the ball in his hands less than a foot away from the rim. I think he should have been able to convert it.

Watch your clip of where he actually caught it, what momentum was doing and all that. I don't really agree with you, I think that was a fairly challenging shot for him and he didn't get up high at ALL on his jump, which affected things.

I'm not going to burn him at the stake for missing shots at the rim, but as I mentioned before, his previous seasons were not at the same success rate he's at this year. He shot 68% at the rim a season and a half ago, so that's probably still fresh enough in my mind I guess. Being above league average is great to hear, I honestly wouldn't have guessed that, I would like to know how ranks in relation to forwards vs the whole league.

He was at 73.3% from 0-3 last year. 68.5% the year before and 71.1% as a rookie. I think you're underselling him some.

Best I can sort from NBA.com is 0-5ft win min 120 FGA, has him 12th among forwards at 70.3%.

Again, keep in mind, that opens things up outside of the RA quite a bit, and into hook shot range, where 45%+ is above average.

Scottie isn't elite, no doubt, but he does alright. Expecting too much more of him very quickly delves into "expecting him to be elite" territory, which we should be beyond at this stage.

I still think he should've been able to lay it in, but not a hill I'm willing to die on, I can see your POV.

Maybe I am selling him a bit short, I might have too many instances of him missing bunnies at the rim and grabbing his own boards biasing that.

As for the 0-3 range shot stats, where are you grabbing those from, seems like it would be insanely tedious to do from bref lol

[tsherkin]

I still think he should've been able to lay it in, but not a hill I'm willing to die on, I can see your POV.

Maybe I am selling him a bit short, I might have too many instances of him missing bunnies at the rim and grabbing his own boards biasing that.

As for the 0-3 range shot stats, where are you grabbing those from, seems like it would be insanely tedious to do from bref lol

B-Ref has them listed in every player's profile, it's the first of the shooting zones in that section of their main player overview pages.

The Rim FG% is coming from Ben Taylor's page.

[Scase]

I still think he should've been able to lay it in, but not a hill I'm willing to die on, I can see your POV.

Maybe I am selling him a bit short, I might have too many instances of him missing bunnies at the rim and grabbing his own boards biasing that.

As for the 0-3 range shot stats, where are you grabbing those from, seems like it would be insanely tedious to do from bref lol

B-Ref has them listed in every player's profile, it's the first of the shooting zones in that section of their main player overview pages.

The Rim FG% is coming from Ben Taylor's page.

Ah yeah, thought you had something more all encompassing. How is the stuff he provides when signing up for patreon? I pay for cleaning the glass, but don't want tog et in the habit of paying for a bunch of basketball stat websites.

[tsherkin]

Ah yeah, thought you had something more all encompassing. How is the stuff he provides when signing up for patreon? I pay for cleaning the glass, but don't want tog et in the habit of paying for a bunch of basketball stat websites.

He has a lot of stuff. He's also missing things, like 2024 Scottie for some reason, but whatever. Access to stuff like box creation and cTOV% and what-not, I find worthwhile.

[HangTime]

Scottie has a much higher ceiling than the group of players he's bundled with (Cade, Mobley, Paolo, Franz, Sengun, etc).
The difference is, they are closer to their ceiling.

So, to most people, he looks like he's "behind." In reality, he's working on so much more.

[tdotrep2]

Scottie has a much higher ceiling than the group of players he's bundled with (Cade, Mobley, Paolo, Franz, Sengun, etc).
The difference is, they are closer to their ceiling.

So, to most people, he looks like he's "behind." In reality, he's working on so much more.

aside from mobley, all those guys have also had way more room to develop their game while we pigeon hold socttie early

[HumbleRen]

Scottie has a much higher ceiling than the group of players he's bundled with (Cade, Mobley, Paolo, Franz, Sengun, etc).
The difference is, they are closer to their ceiling.

So, to most people, he looks like he's "behind." In reality, he's working on so much more.

“Ceiling” talk starts losing its meaning by the 4th year of someone’s career. It starts becoming lost potential.

[HangTime]

Scottie has a much higher ceiling than the group of players he's bundled with (Cade, Mobley, Paolo, Franz, Sengun, etc).
The difference is, they are closer to their ceiling.

So, to most people, he looks like he's "behind." In reality, he's working on so much more.

“Ceiling” talk starts losing its meaning by the 4th year of someone’s career. It starts becoming lost potential.

Why though? His skill set is way more diverse, and his first 2 years he was basically stuck into in a support role.
Early on, it was clear (atleast to me) he was the most talented player on the roster.
He had a few games he was able to lead, and it looked great.
We should have had Pascal, Fred and OG be his support pieces.

I say, Think of Scottie as if he's in year 2.

Its not a conventional, but Scottie's not conventional.

Sort of like Steph Curry being unconventional

I'm glad we have Darko leading the way. I can't believe people want him fired.

[Tha Cynic]

I can’t tell how many people are trolling in this thread lol

[HumbleRen]

Scottie has a much higher ceiling than the group of players he's bundled with (Cade, Mobley, Paolo, Franz, Sengun, etc).
The difference is, they are closer to their ceiling.

So, to most people, he looks like he's "behind." In reality, he's working on so much more.

“Ceiling” talk starts losing its meaning by the 4th year of someone’s career. It starts becoming lost potential.

Why though? His skill set is way more diverse, and his first 2 years he was basically stuck into in a support role.
Early on, it was clear (atleast to me) he was the most talented player on the roster.
He had a few games he was able to lead, and it looked great.
We should have had Pascal, Fred and OG be his support pieces.

I say, Think of Scottie as if he's in year 2.

Its not a conventional, but Scottie's not conventional.

Sort of like Steph Curry being unconventional

I'm glad we have Darko leading the way. I can't believe people want him fired.

He’s not that unconventional when it comes to offence though. There isn’t some latent ability that’s ready to be unlocked like there was with Curry.

If you’re still raw on offence by year 4, that’s pretty much a death knell on him ever reaching his ceiling as an offensive player. It doesn’t mean he can’t be all nba or be a consistent all star, it just means we shouldn’t be banking on him to be a great scorer.

At his peak, he’ll probably be hovering around 24/7/6 with like 2-3 stocks a night. That’s an amazing player to have on the roster but I think it’s unfair to expect him to suddenly shift into a great offensive player.

[Scase]

We're starting to go off the rails with the ceiling/potential talk. Scottie is a good player, with the capabilities to become a very good player, but he's not going to turn into some incredible offensive weapon. I would love to be wrong, I used to think he could piece it together, but as Humble mentioned, this is year 4, we need to start being realistic with what is on the court.

[Tripod]

Cade shot 7-26 yesterday, Banchero is 4-17 today.....goes to show that Barnes is allowed to have a 4-16 game. Obviously he needs to be better but it's not the end of the world.

Add Jalen Green to the list too now....4-16 tonight

It happens

[Scizzup]

Scottie has a much higher ceiling than the group of players he's bundled with (Cade, Mobley, Paolo, Franz, Sengun, etc).
The difference is, they are closer to their ceiling.

So, to most people, he looks like he's "behind." In reality, he's working on so much more.

I think Scottie has the 2nd or 3rd worst ceiling here because I don't trust Sengun defense (but if he turns into Joker lite it won't matter). Scottie is the 2nd worst offensive player in the list. Franz does everything better than Scottie except for passing, there is no scenario where Scottie will be as good of a self creator as Franz/Paolo/Cade.


with that said some will hit their ceiling and others won't so anything can happen. Barnes probably has the highest floor though because off his jack of all trade ability. I can see him being a 5-7 times all star but not an a top 15 player in the league.

[tsherkin]

Scottie has a much higher ceiling than the group of players he's bundled with (Cade, Mobley, Paolo, Franz, Sengun, etc).
The difference is, they are closer to their ceiling.

Nothing supports this.

[Thaddy]

Scottie has a much higher ceiling than the group of players he's bundled with (Cade, Mobley, Paolo, Franz, Sengun, etc).
The difference is, they are closer to their ceiling.

Nothing supports this.

What is ''nothing''? He's better on defense than most of those guys, has better tools than most, and he's shown improvement in his skills year over year.

He's better than Cade, Banchero, and Sengun as a man and help defender.

He's got a better bag than Mobley.

Franz has a case for being better on offense but defensively they could be equal. The only thing is that playing next to a true first option in Banchero gives him an advantage and he is working with adequate spacing.

[tsherkin]

What is ''nothing''? He's better on defense than most of those guys, has better tools than most, and he's shown improvement in his skills year over year.

His D is better. His skill improvement as a scorer has been meaningless so far. He has, in fact, REGRESSED as a scorer this year, leastwise with respect to efficiency. His playmaking has improved. These are good things, but they don't support an argument that has him clearly better than those guys. Of the same tier, no doubt, but not better. Statistically, his impact is quite similar as well. His floor-raising is very limp.

[Tacoma]

Scottie has a much higher ceiling than the group of players he's bundled with (Cade, Mobley, Paolo, Franz, Sengun, etc).
The difference is, they are closer to their ceiling.

Nothing supports this.

What is ''nothing''? He's better on defense than most of those guys, has better tools than most, and he's shown improvement in his skills year over year.

He's better than Cade, Banchero, and Sengun as a man and help defender.

He's got a better bag than Mobley.

Franz has a case for being better on offense but defensively they could be equal. The only thing is that playing next to a true first option in Banchero gives him an advantage and he is working with adequate spacing.

What's in that bag? Here's a direct Barnes vs. Mobley running stats comparison: https://www.fantasypros.com/nba/compare/evan-mobley-scottie-barnes.php and it shows Mobley leading in most categories, plus Mobley has more in the bag on defence.

What's interesting is Mobley (like Barnes) isn't noted for shooting but he's shooting 42% from 3PT so far. Barnes attempts more 3PT shots (155 vs. 107) but Mobley has surprisingly made more of them (45 vs. 43).

In terms of ceiling, Cade, Franz and Mobley are all on an upward trajectory with chance to be an all star this year. On the other hand, Barnes' trajectory seems to have flatten and so it's difficult right now to see Barnes with the higher ceiling.