[STEIN]: Hawks have expressed interest in trying to hire Masai Ujiri away from Toronto

[Los_29]

You can’t just handwave away the Poeltl trade with “they won 48 games a few years ago and he drafted Jamal Shead so it kind of evens out.”

Poeltl is a good player, and it was fair(ish) value, but it was shockingly bad error in judgement from a big picture standpoint.

I think the other big moves (letting FVV walk for nothing, hiring Darko, the OG trade, the Siakam trade, and the Ingram trade) are all neutral at best.

I’m not as impressed by moves like the McDaniels trade, as despite the value, it doesn’t really move the needle. You would need to make like 100 of those “around the edges” moves to make up for the big picture failures.

OG trade was always seen as a good return.

Pascal trade has been a good return.

Ingram trade, we gave up literally nothing. Two mid to back-end rotation players and a terrible FRP for a very good player in Ingram.

Darko has been good for us and done exactly what he was brought in to do.

Ironically, your post is highlighting how solid Masai’s moves have been.

In regards to FVV, Grayson Allen wouldn’t have added much to our team.

I find it’s really important to look at these things objectively. You need to take out emotions in all of this.

In terms of value, Poeltl trade was fine. I was not a fan of it but who did we miss out on? Rob Dillingham? lol.

[ItsDanger]

When evaluating these trades in recent years, you can't just look at the return at that time the trades occurred. They locked themselves into a path that restricts opportunity in the present.

[Los_29]

When evaluating these trades in recent years, you can't just look at the return at that time the trades occurred. They locked themselves into a path that restricts opportunity in the present.

Luckily, you have to look at what was offered in the past.

I’d rather have the Pacers return than AJ Griffin and Kobe Bufkin. But if you believe in them long-term than that’s fine although I believe Griffin is out of the league and seen as a bit of a head case.

OG return was seen as a good deal for us primarily because it was better than what was offered in years past.

So I’m sure that can happen but in this case the returns were better than what was offered in the past.

Trading them earlier would’ve worsened our pick though and enabled us to draft guys like Rob Dillingham, Salaun and Holland. And they would’ve helped us lose a few more games which would’ve put us in a position to get the 8th pick instead of the 9th pick.

[Pointgod]

Masai has definitely lost some zip on the his fast ball. I’d like to get a GM in here that isn’t irrationally attached to players he drafted, won’t let players walk for nothing and will build a team based on what’s successful in the modern NBA.

On the other hand, do I trust Ed Rogers to hire a competent GM that wouldn’t come in and do something idiotic like trade a bunch of picks for Trae Young? **** no. There in lies the conundrum.

This is it. We would absolutely get the modern version of Bryan Colangelo, so all things considered, I’d probably just stick it out with Masai.

I think sometimes being afraid of making a move, even though it’s uncertain is worse. If we stick it out with Masai (assuming he wants to stay) then where do you realistically see this team in 3 years? We’re already close to the luxury tax with limited ability to add free agents at the MLE and resign some of our own players and this will be the case next year. Are we just keeping Masai only to just go into another rebuild in 3 years?

[navyblue]

Masai has definitely lost some zip on the his fast ball. I’d like to get a GM in here that isn’t irrationally attached to players he drafted, won’t let players walk for nothing and will build a team based on what’s successful in the modern NBA.

On the other hand, do I trust Ed Rogers to hire a competent GM that wouldn’t come in and do something idiotic like trade a bunch of picks for Trae Young? **** no. There in lies the conundrum.

This is it. We would absolutely get the modern version of Bryan Colangelo, so all things considered, I’d probably just stick it out with Masai.

I think sometimes being afraid of making a move, even though it’s uncertain is worse. If we stick it out with Masai (assuming he wants to stay) then where do you realistically see this team in 3 years? We’re already close to the luxury tax with limited ability to add free agents at the MLE and resign some of our own players and this will be the case next year. Are we just keeping Masai only to just go into another rebuild in 3 years?

And a new GM is the panecea for the issues? Who knows a new gm might exacerbate the sitiuation.

It's not always greener on the other side.

[mihaic]

I think the FVV for nothing is overstated here. Nobody expected the rockets to give 40+ per to freaking fvv. At that pricepoint, he'll yeah you lost him. I can see though they (Masai, Bobby) thought they'd resign him and trade the trio later, one by one, like they did OG and Siakam.

[ciueli]

I think the FVV for nothing is overstated here. Nobody expected the rockets to give 40+ per to freaking fvv. At that pricepoint, he'll yeah you lost him. I can see though they (Masai, Bobby) thought they'd resign him and trade the trio later, one by one, like they did OG and Siakam.

The problem is not that they lost FVV for nothing, the problem is they had no backup plan because the team had a ton of forwards on the roster and no guards. They wound up signing Dennis Schroder for the MLE and using Malachi Flynn off the bench, we had arguably the worst guard rotation in the entire league.

[Pointgod]

This is it. We would absolutely get the modern version of Bryan Colangelo, so all things considered, I’d probably just stick it out with Masai.

I think sometimes being afraid of making a move, even though it’s uncertain is worse. If we stick it out with Masai (assuming he wants to stay) then where do you realistically see this team in 3 years? We’re already close to the luxury tax with limited ability to add free agents at the MLE and resign some of our own players and this will be the case next year. Are we just keeping Masai only to just go into another rebuild in 3 years?

And a new GM is the panecea for the issues? Who knows a new gm might exacerbate the sitiuation.

It's not always greener on the other side.

A new GM will be less attached to the players on this roster and less likely to double down with a bad move. Masai is a good GM, but there are a lot of NBA front offices with smart and capable people.

Getting a fresh view on this team from someone not tied to the organization could be the better course than status quo.

[Pointgod]

I think the FVV for nothing is overstated here. Nobody expected the rockets to give 40+ per to freaking fvv. At that pricepoint, he'll yeah you lost him. I can see though they (Masai, Bobby) thought they'd resign him and trade the trio later, one by one, like they did OG and Siakam.

Everyone knew that Van Vleet wanted a max contract. If the Raptors weren’t willing to pay him the max then you trade him period because of the unpredictability of the market. There are countless examples of NBA teams overpaying in free agency.

[Scase]

You can’t just handwave away the Poeltl trade with “they won 48 games a few years ago and he drafted Jamal Shead so it kind of evens out.”

Poeltl is a good player, and it was fair(ish) value, but it was shockingly bad error in judgement from a big picture standpoint.

I think the other big moves (letting FVV walk for nothing, hiring Darko, the OG trade, the Siakam trade, and the Ingram trade) are all neutral at best.

I’m not as impressed by moves like the McDaniels trade, as despite the value, it doesn’t really move the needle. You would need to make like 100 of those “around the edges” moves to make up for the big picture failures.

It also completely ignores things like the path it put us down. Is a 48 win season bad? No, not at all. But when you see that it was what got us into the situation where FVV walks for nothing, we trade Siakam and OG on the back foot, and most damning of all, it led to Masais worst move since he's been here, the Jak trade.

You take an axe to that whole roster after getting the 4th pick and drafting Scottie, instead of the stupid approach of win now mode, and you end up rebuilding years ago and avoid throwing away picks and years of treading water.

Sure what he did with the mess was admirable, but as I've said before, you don't get credit and flowers, for cleaning up a mess you made. But yeah, he made a good trade with OG, and a mediocre one with Siakam, so let's just let bygones be bygones or something. No one looks bad when you try and spin everything in a positive light except the one glaring horrific move that not even his most ardent supporters are biased enough to try and celebrate.

It's textbook denial, everything is good, until it isn't then you start talking about how it's bad, and everyone that says "I told you so" gets told "It's easy to say that with hindsight" like they did with the Jak trade.

25 and a 30 win season back to back, and all we have is a single 9th pick. Unacceptable.

[Raptors Realtor]

I think the FVV for nothing is overstated here. Nobody expected the rockets to give 40+ per to freaking fvv. At that pricepoint, he'll yeah you lost him. I can see though they (Masai, Bobby) thought they'd resign him and trade the trio later, one by one, like they did OG and Siakam.

Everyone knew that Van Vleet wanted a max contract. If the Raptors weren’t willing to pay him the max then you trade him period because of the unpredictability of the market. There are countless examples of NBA teams overpaying in free agency.

It was never reported that he was expecting the max, he was expecting to cash in on the max amount of money he could get and not giving the Raps a hometown discount, but nobody thought he would get an actual max contract.

[mihaic]

I think the FVV for nothing is overstated here. Nobody expected the rockets to give 40+ per to freaking fvv. At that pricepoint, he'll yeah you lost him. I can see though they (Masai, Bobby) thought they'd resign him and trade the trio later, one by one, like they did OG and Siakam.

Everyone knew that Van Vleet wanted a max contract. If the Raptors weren’t willing to pay him the max then you trade him period because of the unpredictability of the market. There are countless examples of NBA teams overpaying in free agency.

Noone expected he'd get a max. It was just negotiating failed unexpectedly. They probably wanted to get him for much cheaper.

In fact the same people complaining "we lost him for nothing, Masai sucks" would probably complain "we overpaid, FVV and Masai sucks"

As a negotiator you take some risks, sometimes things go wrong. This had a low probability to go wrong but it did, fine.

But running without a center for years was a fail. With that I agree.

[Raps in 4]

I think the FVV for nothing is overstated here. Nobody expected the rockets to give 40+ per to freaking fvv. At that pricepoint, he'll yeah you lost him. I can see though they (Masai, Bobby) thought they'd resign him and trade the trio later, one by one, like they did OG and Siakam.

Everyone knew that Van Vleet wanted a max contract. If the Raptors weren’t willing to pay him the max then you trade him period because of the unpredictability of the market. There are countless examples of NBA teams overpaying in free agency.

Noone expected he'd get a max. It was just negotiating failed unexpectedly. They probably wanted to get him for much cheaper.

In fact the same people complaining "we lost him for nothing, Masai sucks" would probably complain "we overpaid, FVV and Masai sucks"

As a negotiator you take some risks, sometimes things go wrong. This had a low probability to go wrong but it did, fine.

But running without a center for years was a fail. With that I agree.

Everyone and their mother knew that he was going to get $30M+ and that we were not going to pay him that. It was also clear to everyone (but Masai) that the team should have pivoted towards a rebuild two years ago.

[Raps in 4]

I think Masai is pretty mediocre-to-bad at setting an overall vision for his teams.

However, he still remains one of the best (if not best) drafting executives in the league.

I think having an eye for talent is much more valuable than being a good negotiator or knowing when it's time to transition a team towards a rebuild. For that reason, I'm fine with holding onto Masai. I don't think there is anyone out there on the retread market who gives us a better chance at having a competitive team, and I certainly don't think that Ed Rogers has the skill to identify a high-potential candidate from the market of unknowns.

[Raptors Realtor]

Everyone knew that Van Vleet wanted a max contract. If the Raptors weren’t willing to pay him the max then you trade him period because of the unpredictability of the market. There are countless examples of NBA teams overpaying in free agency.

Noone expected he'd get a max. It was just negotiating failed unexpectedly. They probably wanted to get him for much cheaper.

In fact the same people complaining "we lost him for nothing, Masai sucks" would probably complain "we overpaid, FVV and Masai sucks"

As a negotiator you take some risks, sometimes things go wrong. This had a low probability to go wrong but it did, fine.

But running without a center for years was a fail. With that I agree.

Everyone and their mother knew that he was going to get $30M+ and that we were not going to pay him that. It was also clear to everyone (but Masai) that the team should have pivoted towards a rebuild two years ago.

I remember hearing Raps offered him around $120M/4.

[mihaic]

Everyone knew that Van Vleet wanted a max contract. If the Raptors weren’t willing to pay him the max then you trade him period because of the unpredictability of the market. There are countless examples of NBA teams overpaying in free agency.

Noone expected he'd get a max. It was just negotiating failed unexpectedly. They probably wanted to get him for much cheaper.

In fact the same people complaining "we lost him for nothing, Masai sucks" would probably complain "we overpaid, FVV and Masai sucks"

As a negotiator you take some risks, sometimes things go wrong. This had a low probability to go wrong but it did, fine.

But running without a center for years was a fail. With that I agree.

Everyone and their mother knew that he was going to get $30M+ and that we were not going to pay him that. It was also clear to everyone (but Masai) that the team should have pivoted towards a rebuild two years ago.

Ya Personally I think they thought they'll sign him at around 30M and trade him later (kick the can down the road), or S&T for expiry plus pick or other asset, and then HOU offer came out of left field. These things can happen.

However running with subpar C for years was not good, that's a fail for me. Getting Poeltl when they did was too little too late.

Alas there are worse managers there. Look at Morey's failure as an example, Look at the managers we had before in BC, Babcock. Masai is not the best, but I am afraid they would replace them with worse.

Edit: If Masai was so bad, why would all kind of other teams want to nab him. Right?

[YogurtProducer]

This board is so cooked when they think Masai is a bad GM. My god.

Absolutely spoiled fans who are still clinging to like 12 months of the team where in hindsight we should’ve blown it up.

And even then, even if we did there’s no guarantee we’d be any better today than we are.

[Scase]

I think Masai is pretty mediocre-to-bad at setting an overall vision for his teams.

However, he still remains one of the best (if not best) drafting executives in the league.

I think having an eye for talent is much more valuable than being a good negotiator or knowing when it's time to transition a team towards a rebuild. For that reason, I'm fine with holding onto Masai. I don't think there is anyone out there on the retread market who gives us a better chance at having a competitive team, and I certainly don't think that Ed Rogers has the skill to identify a high-potential candidate from the market of unknowns.

I think I would be fine with Masai sticking around, if we had a competent GM working under him. Bobby might be a cap wizard, but a GM he is not. If we are to believe that the last couple years of stupidity were due to a lack of oversight from Masai, then there is no reason to keep him around.

You should treat the FO the same way you do a coaching staff, HC is great at offence but sucks at defence? Hire an assistant that can cover that gap, I fail to see why you would need a GM just to manage the cap sheet, we need a legit negotiator and someone with some vision on constructing a team, let Masai be the big picture guy with a heavy hand on drafting. As a leader you should never be the smartest guy in the room, you should be hiring people that are way better at things you aren't great at.

[Pointgod]

Noone expected he'd get a max. It was just negotiating failed unexpectedly. They probably wanted to get him for much cheaper.

In fact the same people complaining "we lost him for nothing, Masai sucks" would probably complain "we overpaid, FVV and Masai sucks"

As a negotiator you take some risks, sometimes things go wrong. This had a low probability to go wrong but it did, fine.

But running without a center for years was a fail. With that I agree.

Everyone and their mother knew that he was going to get $30M+ and that we were not going to pay him that. It was also clear to everyone (but Masai) that the team should have pivoted towards a rebuild two years ago.

I remember hearing Raps offered him around $120M/4.

Van Vleet turned down 4 years at 115M heading into the season. The Rockets came and offered him 3 years at 130M. It’s literally a front offices’ job to go through all of the scenarios and game plan for it. And the other problem was that Masai’s back up solution was Dennis Schroeder who is in no way starting PG. It just goes to show you there was no plan.

[Pointgod]

I think Masai is pretty mediocre-to-bad at setting an overall vision for his teams.

However, he still remains one of the best (if not best) drafting executives in the league.

I think having an eye for talent is much more valuable than being a good negotiator or knowing when it's time to transition a team towards a rebuild. For that reason, I'm fine with holding onto Masai. I don't think there is anyone out there on the retread market who gives us a better chance at having a competitive team, and I certainly don't think that Ed Rogers has the skill to identify a high-potential candidate from the market of unknowns.

I think I would be fine with Masai sticking around, if we had a competent GM working under him. Bobby might be a cap wizard, but a GM he is not. If we are to believe that the last couple years of stupidity were due to a lack of oversight from Masai, then there is no reason to keep him around.

You should treat the FO the same way you do a coaching staff, HC is great at offence but sucks at defence? Hire an assistant that can cover that gap, I fail to see why you would need a GM just to manage the cap sheet, we need a legit negotiator and someone with some vision on constructing a team, let Masai be the big picture guy with a heavy hand on drafting. As a leader you should never be the smartest guy in the room, you should be hiring people that are way better at things you aren't great at.

Masai is a great culture setter which is one of the hardest things to do as a front office. I’d also say he’s great at drafting and developing talent. Which is why it’s so freaking confusing that that he’s opted to trade draft picks over the years instead of acquiring multiple first round picks to build out a competent bench.