How is this not a super Mid plan? what's the pitch on our direction

[bluerap23]

Yeah, some of us having been saying all of this for years, they're betting everything on Ingram's questionable health record now because they are desperate. Since the title the Raptors have made the playoffs twice in 6 years and won a single playoff round, and that was with good chunks of title team still mostly intact back in 2020. That's a poor record for any highly paid executive that is looking for a new contract like Masai and Bobby are, there's immense pressure on them to get this team back into the playoffs and show things are moving forward in a positive direction.

They aren’t betting EVERYTHING. They got him for Nickles on the dollar.

[Scase]

I'm not sure what is getting lost in translation here, I've been pretty clear that I expect the team to be better than last year, full stop. Same way I expected the Pistons to be better than their prior year, but them adding Harris isn't exactly something to look forward to down the line as a viable way to improve the team long term, same with BI.

And again, people need to stop with the hyperbole. I never said I expect 30 -> chip, that is literally the nonsense I was saying needs to stop.

I know you didn't say that. I was pointing out that we are in a transition phase. Bitching about our future prospects while we are in that space doesn't make a lot of sense.

I don't see how this iteration of the roster has the growth potential to eventually become a contender.

And that's precisely why I made the remark I did. No one saw the path forward with the Demar/Lowry team, either. It will either present itself, or it will not. In the meantime, we should be enjoying a return to winning basketball, and not overly concerning ourselves with contender status at this point in the team's journey. We just had a 30-win season; all talk about pathways to contention are ridiculous at this point. All analyses and considerations about whether or not we can, or how we would get there are premature and mostly inappropriate.

So I am basing my opinion on the current roster and my evaluation of their room for growth, that's all. No one is expecting the Spurs to go from 34 wins to a chip, but you can bet your ass they have a lot of expectations and justifiable hope for the long term future due to Wemby. We don't have any player on the roster to offer up even half the level of optimism he provides, hence the "Yeah, we'll be better, but to what end?" vibe that I have with this team.

Right, but this is a problematic attitude which produces nothing but negativity. Yes, we don't have a generational talent on our roster. Okay. Loads of teams don't. Until they do. Or until they find other paths to talent acquisition and get themselves to a strong level of competitive play.

There's SOME degree to which we need to start pushing away from purely negative responses and try to find some of the positives here, or all we will be doing is contributing to a toxic environment. We can't JUST be a pool of unlimited negativity, or what's the point? No one wants to come here and just be like "ugh, yeah, the Raptors are **** and aren't going anywhere. Me MIGHT win 43 games, and that'll suck."

People want to have conversations, not just rehashes of old battle lines, right? And sometimes we need to work on ourselves to find something more than just pessimism and dismay.

So what exactly is the purpose of a discussion, if all we do is ignore the negatives and only try and seek positives? No one is saying this is the worst team in history or anything so outlandish, simply stating that the team is mid. Realism =/= negativity. I am still hopeful for Gradey to continue to grow, and maybe that we can see Scottie shine on defence, but again there is nothing overwhelmingly hopeful to be positive about, it's just kinda meh.

So the two options we have at our disposal here is, say anything negative and it turns into some out of control cesspool, or toxic positivity where you have to dig to the core of the earth to find something? Not sure I subscribe to either of those. There are people here with unbridled optimism, bless their hearts, and there are people who are not enthused by the team currently.

If there are noticeably more of one side vs the other, that says something about the team, and not the fanbase. So if we want to have honest discussions you have to live with both sides, if you want to have an echo chamber, we better start getting the perma ban hammer out for all those who don't think things are sunshine and rainbows.

I just don't understand the push for trying to dictate what people think and are allowed to discuss if it's related to the team. I wouldn't want people faking some attempt at positivity any more than I would for someone to nitpik on something like BI "only" played 75 games next season.

[SpezNc]

I was listening to the most recent Ringer NBA show and they brought up some good points:

- Replacing Siakam with Ingram is a downgrade and hes going to be 28 yrs old before the season starts.

- We are basically trying to build an offense around Ingram + Barnes (challenging/concerns) to try and be a 6th seed.

- We arent likely to add anymore top prospects to the core now that we'll be "middling playoff team" territory in the weak East.

When looking at this big picture it does seem abit pessimistic, and that this was a poorly executed rebuild + low ceiling plan.

I know it gets billed as "asset accumulation" but its actually not that simple as these decisions basically effect your entire direction.

Does it not seem that Masai again just decided on taking shortcuts when he finally had the chance to rebuild properly + with patience?

It actually won't be surprising if we get burned and suffer the consequences of these "team building shortcuts."

Can anyone provide some realistic framework to becoming a contender?

It does seem like somewhat of a depressing outlook from a "building a contender" big picture perspective.

Masai taking a shortcut or it’s the instruction from above to start winning because seasons tickets are going down.

Being a middling team is probably a comfort zone money wise for the owners.

Normally a rebuilding team going to cut down salaries as much as possible during rebuilding. But our rebuilding was done while being very close to Luxury Tax.

It’s a lot of expenses for lesser revenues.

Ed Rogers is probably “tick tock tick tock” even if the Rebuild has less than 2 years old.

I think our lineups with Barnes , BI, RJ, Quick, Poeltl, Gradey, Ja’Kobe, Ochai, Shead, Mogbo, Battle and the upcoming #9 pick is intriguing, fairly young with room for internal growth.

But I also agree it’s hard to see a contending team ceilings with this current lineup .

[djsunyc]

do folks forget the last 250+ times this has been discussed the past 3 months?

[ciueli]

Yeah, some of us having been saying all of this for years, they're betting everything on Ingram's questionable health record now because they are desperate. Since the title the Raptors have made the playoffs twice in 6 years and won a single playoff round, and that was with good chunks of title team still mostly intact back in 2020. That's a poor record for any highly paid executive that is looking for a new contract like Masai and Bobby are, there's immense pressure on them to get this team back into the playoffs and show things are moving forward in a positive direction.

They aren’t betting EVERYTHING. They got him for Nickles on the dollar.

They're betting a lot, if Ingram can't stay healthy this team is a play-in team at best, probably not a playoff team, and we're stuck in no-man's land dealing with a $40M/year contract to a player who isn't helping us. Late lottery picks for a few years means likely no star in the draft to bail us out of what would be a huge mess.

[earthtone]

Yeah, some of us having been saying all of this for years, they're betting everything on Ingram's questionable health record now because they are desperate. Since the title the Raptors have made the playoffs twice in 6 years and won a single playoff round, and that was with good chunks of title team still mostly intact back in 2020. That's a poor record for any highly paid executive that is looking for a new contract like Masai and Bobby are, there's immense pressure on them to get this team back into the playoffs and show things are moving forward in a positive direction.

They aren’t betting EVERYTHING. They got him for Nickles on the dollar.

They're betting a lot, if Ingram can't stay healthy this team is a play-in team at best, probably not a playoff team, and we're stuck in no-man's land dealing with a $40M/year contract to a player who isn't helping us. Late lottery picks for a few years means likely no star in the draft to bail us out of what would be a huge mess.

and if he does stay healthy and looks like he did at his best in New Orleans?…

[tsherkin]

So what exactly is the purpose of a discussion, if all we do is ignore the negatives and only try and seek positives? No one is saying this is the worst team in history or anything so outlandish, simply stating that the team is mid. Realism =/= negativity. I am still hopeful for Gradey to continue to grow, and maybe that we can see Scottie shine on defence, but again there is nothing overwhelmingly hopeful to be positive about, it's just kinda meh.

We have spent quite a bit of time enumerating the negatives. If all you do is that, then you are thieving what little joy we have left as fans, right? Like, we have to at least HOPE for positive things after this long talking nothing but crap. There's A chance that things will start going better for us. You don't have to love everything all the time with unfettered optimism, but Scase, all you do ever is bring negativity to the table, man.

There is a point where people don't want to deal with nothing but negativity, you know?

[Scase]

So what exactly is the purpose of a discussion, if all we do is ignore the negatives and only try and seek positives? No one is saying this is the worst team in history or anything so outlandish, simply stating that the team is mid. Realism =/= negativity. I am still hopeful for Gradey to continue to grow, and maybe that we can see Scottie shine on defence, but again there is nothing overwhelmingly hopeful to be positive about, it's just kinda meh.

We have spent quite a bit of time enumerating the negatives. If all you do is that, then you are thieving what little joy we have left as fans, right? Like, we have to at least HOPE for positive things after this long talking nothing but crap. There's A chance that things will start going better for us. You don't have to love everything all the time with unfettered optimism, but Scase, all you do ever is bring negativity to the table, man.

There is a point where people don't want to deal with nothing but negativity, you know?

I've discussed in length what I'm optimistic of with this roster, largely GD, Mogbo, and sadly now to a lesser degree, Scottie. But I tend to relegate those to specific player threads since that makes the most sense. This thread is asking what the plan is on the team as a whole, the team as a whole isn't particularly great right now, so naturally it's going to skew more towards the negative.

Again, I don't see how it's overly negative to say, the team will be better short term, but I see no path to long term success, if that is considered too negative, then there is no interest in actual discourse, just people glossing over anything that isn't rainbows and sunshine.

[tsherkin]

Again, I don't see how it's overly negative to say, the team will be better short term, but I see no path to long term success, if that is considered too negative, then there is no interest in actual discourse, just people glossing over anything that isn't rainbows and sunshine.

I think we all know that we're not on a path to title contention at the moment. But we shouldn't be looking at that right now anyway. We should be looking at how to be a decent team, and how to improve from there before we worry about summitting the mountain again. Almost 40% of the league doesn't have a title yet (though OKC seems poised to alter that a bit), and we do. Worrying about another title right now escapes the percentage odds of winning in this league. We need to be focusing on small steps first.

[Scase]

Again, I don't see how it's overly negative to say, the team will be better short term, but I see no path to long term success, if that is considered too negative, then there is no interest in actual discourse, just people glossing over anything that isn't rainbows and sunshine.

I think we all know that we're not on a path to title contention at the moment. But we shouldn't be looking at that right now anyway. We should be looking at how to be a decent team, and how to improve from there before we worry about summitting the mountain again. Almost 40% of the league doesn't have a title yet (though OKC seems poised to alter that a bit), and we do. Worrying about another title right now escapes the percentage odds of winning in this league. We need to be focusing on small steps first.

Agreed, and nothing about what you said runs counter to what I've been saying, better now, with nothing to indicate better long term. Again, this thread was asking what's the plan, the current plan is just "be better", which considering the last 2 seasons were 25 and 30 wins respectively, that's a low bar.

So yeah, I'm not saying anything different than that, I'm just not glazing the team for nothing.

[tsherkin]

Agreed, and nothing about what you said runs counter to what I've been saying, better now, with nothing to indicate better long term. Again, this thread was asking what's the plan, the current plan is just "be better", which considering the last 2 seasons were 25 and 30 wins respectively, that's a low bar.

So yeah, I'm not saying anything different than that, I'm just not glazing the team for nothing.

Sure, it's a low bar. But honestly, we've been hearing nothing but how bad everything is for a couple years now. Let us at least enjoy some brief respite from endless negativity in our recreational pursuit, you know?

[DreamTeam09]

Yeah, some of us having been saying all of this for years, they're betting everything on Ingram's questionable health record now because they are desperate. Since the title the Raptors have made the playoffs twice in 6 years and won a single playoff round, and that was with good chunks of title team still mostly intact back in 2020. That's a poor record for any highly paid executive that is looking for a new contract like Masai and Bobby are, there's immense pressure on them to get this team back into the playoffs and show things are moving forward in a positive direction.

They aren’t betting EVERYTHING. They got him for Nickles on the dollar.

They're betting a lot, if Ingram can't stay healthy this team is a play-in team at best, probably not a playoff team, and we're stuck in no-man's land dealing with a $40M/year contract to a player who isn't helping us. Late lottery picks for a few years means likely no star in the draft to bail us out of what would be a huge mess.

The 11th pick won the lottery this yr
The 8th pick got #2
The 10th placed team won the lottery last year

If we do miss the playoffs, good thing we have all of our own picks. The narrative you wanna run with is your own prerogative, but no we aren't betting everything on Ingrams health, no we haven't made any all in moves yet, and sorry for you, this organization doesn't like going into multiple szns praying on those same lotto gods you wanna rely on to propel us into the promise land so we can end up the Utah Jazz Washington Wizards or Det pistons or any other team you wanna look at who's tanked for multiple years on end to only end up with a Cade Alex Sarr or keynote George or Tre Johnson, S/o to Cade Cunningham too, he's legit, but they also tanked and ended up with Ivey and Duren who are top 5 pics but nothing to bow to tank gods about
I get ita the summer time, but patience is cool too ppl

[Tha Cynic]

Pretty much every team makes major changes at least every couple of years. I guarantee this team will look drastically different at some point within the next 18 months. This is why you don’t get worked up and simple enjoy this year’s ride. This iteration of the team won’t last long.

[Fairview4Life]

do folks forget the last 250+ times this has been discussed the past 15 years

[Tripod]

We have the most depth we have had since 2020 and are adding BI, #9 and possibly #39 to it.

We have a guy capable of 22+pts that can also be efficient.

We have 3 other guys who can be our top scorer on any given night....one playing excellent defense too.

We have a very good C.

We have 4 rookies who all showed they can be rotational pieces vs certain teams.

We have a 3+D(vs guards) who shot 40% this year

We have a guy who proved he could shoot corner 3's but desperately needs to gain strength and only time can fix that.

We have a coach who has now gained experience and "flicked a switch" to having the team identity be great defense.

We have all our picks.

And we have a young roster. This is far from the finished product.

And we have Masai who has built great teams before.

You can't do everything overnight. It's been less than 1.5 years since moving OG and Siakam and we have almost completely changed the roster.

And hell, the draft and offseason have not even began yet.

[ciueli]

They aren’t betting EVERYTHING. They got him for Nickles on the dollar.

They're betting a lot, if Ingram can't stay healthy this team is a play-in team at best, probably not a playoff team, and we're stuck in no-man's land dealing with a $40M/year contract to a player who isn't helping us. Late lottery picks for a few years means likely no star in the draft to bail us out of what would be a huge mess.

and if he does stay healthy and looks like he did at his best in New Orleans?…

To me, the best we can possibly hope for is a season like 2023-2024 when he played 64 games but still didn't quite reach All-Star level as Ingram is a player who has played 70+ games in a season only once in his career (rookie season back in 2016-2017). If we get that season out of him without any other injuries to important players (a lot to ask, but let's be optimistic here) I see this team as a playoff team, maybe even making the playoffs without having to go through the play-in tournament. I would still guess a first round loss as they would be a lower seed, this is a young team that has no experience playing together at all and not much playoff experience.

[GLF]

We have the most depth we have had since 2020 and are adding BI, #9 and possibly #39 to it.

We have a guy capable of 22+pts that can also be efficient.

We have 3 other guys who can be our top scorer on any given night....one playing excellent defense too.

We have a very good C.

We have 4 rookies who all showed they can be rotational pieces vs certain teams.

We have a 3+D(vs guards) who shot 40% this year

We have a guy who proved he could shoot corner 3's but desperately needs to gain strength and only time can fix that.

We have a coach who has now gained experience and "flicked a switch" to having the team identity be great defense.

We have all our picks.

And we have a young roster. This is far from the finished product.

And we have Masai who has built great teams before.

You can't do everything overnight. It's been less than 1.5 years since moving OG and Siakam and we have almost completely changed the roster.

And hell, the draft and offseason have not even began yet.

Thank you. There are so many positive things going on with this team. To me if you can’t see that it’s because you’re a pessimist and only like to focus on the negative things. That doesn’t make you a “realist”. To me the positive people on this board are way more realistic than the negative people because they acknowledge the flaws of the team, they acknowledge this isn’t the final form of this team, they acknowledge this team currently constructed isn’t a contender, but they don’t only focus on those things and act like everything is so doom and gloom. They enjoy the present and the journey and don’t just complain about a future we cannot control and have no clue how it will end up. You would think as a fan of this team you would want to get excited about the improvements this team should make this upcoming season compared to last if they stay healthy. I guess always trying to find the negative about the team to complain about makes certain people happy.

[GLF]

They're betting a lot, if Ingram can't stay healthy this team is a play-in team at best, probably not a playoff team, and we're stuck in no-man's land dealing with a $40M/year contract to a player who isn't helping us. Late lottery picks for a few years means likely no star in the draft to bail us out of what would be a huge mess.

and if he does stay healthy and looks like he did at his best in New Orleans?…

To me, the best we can possibly hope for is a season like 2023-2024 when he played 64 games but still didn't quite reach All-Star level as Ingram is a player who has played 70+ games in a season only once in his career (rookie season back in 2016-2017). If we get that season out of him without any other injuries to important players (a lot to ask, but let's be optimistic here) I see this team as a playoff team, maybe even making the playoffs without having to go through the play-in tournament. I would still guess a first round loss as they would be a lower seed, this is a young team that has no experience playing together at all and not much playoff experience.

And to me there is nothing wrong with this outcome. It’s a step in the right direction. Actual playoff experience would do wonders for our young players. It will also help management see who is a playoff riser and who isn’t. Whose game fits the playoffs and whose doesn’t. Even some of our vets don’t have that much playoff experience. Players and teams usually come back much improved the next season when they get that experience. The only time something like this wouldn’t matter is if it were a veteran team with lots of playoff experience consistently losing in the first round. That’s not Raptors currently.

[basketballto]

They've literally done a worse job then the majority of fans would've on this board...

Id say the consensus of fans on here decisions leaned:

- Kept Norm Powell.

- Traded FVV, OG, Siakam earlier when value was higher for better returns.

- Committed to rebuild earlier (we were 5th worse team = Wemby slot before trading for Poeltl, shouldve went full rebuild)

- Not traded multiple 1st round picks for treadmill moves.

-Not traded top 10 pick for Poeltl.

I feel like there's more no Brainer ones.

If they get fired can't say the didn't earn it.

This board would have picked Sugg over Barnes.

That top ten pick ending up being little Rob Dillingham who hopefully one day will be a 6 man. I would have traded Dillingham for a starter in Poeltl.

13 other teams some with better odds didn't win the Wemby lottery. It's called a lottery for a reason.


The year after he left Toronto Norm Powell played 27 games, next year 40, next year 7. He averages under 2 assists a game. Bad defense. 20 million was too much.

Listening to podcasts can be bad for your health. They are trying to get you raging so you tune in.

There's a reasonable argument that drafting Barnes messed up the roster construction and led the team to build around an interesting but highly flawed focal point.

In some ways picking Suggs, who is playing well now, would have been the better outcome, even if he isn't the better player.

An interesting thought. Van Fleet is just as likely to leave seeing his job isn't safe. Do we go all in on Pascal and OG with Suggs?

[djsunyc]

We have the most depth we have had since 2020 and are adding BI, #9 and possibly #39 to it.

We have a guy capable of 22+pts that can also be efficient.

We have 3 other guys who can be our top scorer on any given night....one playing excellent defense too.

We have a very good C.

We have 4 rookies who all showed they can be rotational pieces vs certain teams.

We have a 3+D(vs guards) who shot 40% this year

We have a guy who proved he could shoot corner 3's but desperately needs to gain strength and only time can fix that.

We have a coach who has now gained experience and "flicked a switch" to having the team identity be great defense.

We have all our picks.

And we have a young roster. This is far from the finished product.

And we have Masai who has built great teams before.

You can't do everything overnight. It's been less than 1.5 years since moving OG and Siakam and we have almost completely changed the roster.

And hell, the draft and offseason have not even began yet.

Thank you. There are so many positive things going on with this team. To me if you can’t see that it’s because you’re a pessimist and only like to focus on the negative things. That doesn’t make you a “realist”. To me the positive people on this board are way more realistic than the negative people because they acknowledge the flaws of the team, they acknowledge this isn’t the final form of this team, they acknowledge this team currently constructed isn’t a contender, but they don’t only focus on those things and act like everything is so doom and gloom. They enjoy the present and the journey and don’t just complain about a future we cannot control and have no clue how it will end up. You would think as a fan of this team you would want to get excited about the improvements this team should make this upcoming season compared to last if they stay healthy. I guess always trying to find the negative about the team to complain about makes certain people happy.

i'm super excited about next year. i love the process of trying to get back to being a really good team. season is going to depend on a few things but mainly health and chemistry - both kinda depend on luck. i think we have talent but w/o chemistry, it won't translate to wins. i really like darko as the guy coaching this because he will get everyone involved on offense. everyone will eat. i also like what i heard about ingram watching the team since he got here and seeing how we want to play. there will be an adjustment period but it seems like he's a team guy. there will be expectations on the team next year to compete for a playoff spot - that changes pressure levels on the players and darko so i'm really curious to see it play out.