Official Bargnani Discussion Thread

[Harry Palmer]

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If he's going to continue to post useless garbage where's the harm in telling him that it is? Hopefully it will make him see how redundant he's become and move on.

See, here's the problem with that. It is useless IN YOUR EYES. In posting his thread, he isn't trying to force you to think like him. He isn't saying 'This is how you should behave/think/debate/be a fan.' He is offering his opinion on the basketball team.

But you, in coming into his threads just to bash him for expressing his opinion, ARE saying that he should think like you. You ARE telling him how he should behave/think/debate/be a fan. You are saying 'this kind of thinking is unacceptable to me, because I don't agree with it.'

And you are coming into threads you say you know in advance to do it.

Which both makes no sense and is an example of the kind of scary orthodoxy that takes hold in here at times. If you just didn't read his thread, how would it's presence be harming you?

Other than it conflicting with your need to try and control how others think and act in here.

So I guess the question is, why do you feel that need? If you didn't, why would you enter his threads, knowing what they will contain, just to vent about how they shouldn't exist?

I think his name is Curryfries but anyways whether it was an attack or not is irrelevant it was pretty juvenile.

Wait.

So now you are equating a (possible) non-attack with an attack? How does that work? And if it wasn't an attack, how was it juvenile? Because it didn't conform to your view of how people in here should think?

[The_Hater]

Honest question, where did people think his improvement was going to come from?

More than anything else, effort.

Back in November he actually looked like an improved rebounder. About 7.5 boards every 40 minutes. Not great but a pretty nice improvement over last season (6.2 per 40) and there were lots of those 'see, I told you he could rebound!' type posts after a solid effort. But since December 1st he's gone in the tank (about 4 boards per 40 minutes) and you can only point to 1 game out of 15 where he was even at 10 per 40 (league average for a PF/C).

[deknow]

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See, here's the problem with that. It is useless IN YOUR EYES. In posting his thread, he isn't trying to force you to think like him. He isn't saying 'This is how you should behave/think/debate/be a fan.' He is offering his opinion on the basketball team.

Okay and I'm offering my opinion as well. IMO Supersub needs to use his unparalleled stats digging prowess to dig up something else. IMO he is terribly repetitive and needs to show some diversity for the sake of sanity. You mean to tell me this guy wakes up everyday and his sole purpose is to find yet another way to say Bargnani can't rebound?

There is nothing wrong with posting my opinion about one's posting style

[deknow]

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Wait.

So now you are equating a (possible) non-attack with an attack? How does that work? And if it wasn't an attack, how was it juvenile? Because it didn't conform to your view of how people in here should think?

I think the key phrase is juvenile.

[Harry Palmer]

There is nothing wrong with posting my opinion about one's posting style

Well, actually, there is. When it crosses the line to saying 'this shouldn't be done here', that's for Mods to determine. This isn't a forum for discussing other posters, but for discussing NBA teams and players. Deciding what topics should and should not be discussed, and attacking posters for crossing that line is back-seat moderation, a clearly designated no-no.

That is why we say 'attack the post, not the poster.'

And, again, unless you have this weird need to control how others think/behave, how does the presence of a thread whose topic you don't want to discuss harm you if you don't read it?

Seriously, give this some thought. How does it possibly harm you in any way, shape, or form, other than your wanting to control it's existence? And if the latter, isn't than an issue you should maybe reconsider?

[Harry Palmer]

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I think the key phrase is juvenile.

Yes, as you have illustrated, anyone who expresses an opinion contrary to yours will be deemed fitting many negative qualifiers. That doesn't make it so.

Whereas I think in most spheres of life, the need to respond to contrary opinions with name-calling IS widely acknowledged as juvenile.

ie, there's a difference.

[supersub15]

To repeat what I said earlier: I don't understand how discovering TODAY that Bargnani is the worst rebounding center of all-time is rehashing old news. Yes, we all know that he sucks at rebounding, but to the point of being among the worst ever is NEWS!

[roy_jones_calderon]

I haven't read very much in this thread, but I thought I'd try to weigh in with some thoughts on Bargs' rebounding problems.

There's a tangent thought that I wanted to mention first, and it relates to the problem of trying to evaluate young players.

The real challenge to evaluating prospects is in being able to distinguish discreet periods of time in their development, and to be able to relate them together with an understanding of the changes that have occured over time.

It's those changes that are the real measure. I find the real challenge is in not getting too wrapped up in your thoughts about any one period of time, and at the same time, I don't think it take a ton of time to get a basic feel for a player's talent level.

For example, the much vaunted Rudy Gay was my favourite college player as a freshman, in terms of his unique gifts, but as much as I wanted to see him carry forward that momentum and status as a #1 pick type of player- I couldn't after watching his sophmore season.

I sure hope that such an accomodation isn't necessary with Bargs. I know that for many it's already accepted that he's going to be a brutal rebounder throughout his career. I'm not quite prepared to say that yet, based on what my perspective of Bargs last year and at Benetton has done to encourage me about Bargs' ability to develop his raw physical skills.

[AfricanSensation]

To repeat what I said earlier: I don't understand how discovering TODAY that Bargnani is the worst rebounding center of all-time is rehashing old news. Yes, we all know that he sucks at rebounding, but to the point of being among the worst ever is NEWS!

Apparently even his supporters pretty much already knew that he was the worst rebounder ever, thats sad LOL

[tb40]

To repeat what I said earlier: I don't understand how discovering TODAY that Bargnani is the worst rebounding center of all-time is rehashing old news. Yes, we all know that he sucks at rebounding, but to the point of being among the worst ever is NEWS!

If he remains the worst after 3 years or so, then you have a scoop, and the raptors have a big problem.

[Harry Palmer]

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If he remains the worst after 3 years or so, then you have a scoop, and the raptors have a big problem.

Ok, explain to me why '3 years or so' is the appropriate timeline, as opposed to being at least as arbitrary as anyone SS could come up with?

[C Court]

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The really sad thing is that both Dagger and Center Court are like 50+ years old

What's so really sad about being 50+ years old??? Life is good!

Just because you mistakenly think you know all there is to know, I won't hold your youthful naivety against you.

[Prop]

this board is really hard to even visit anymore. stuff like this doesn't make it any easier.

why do you guys whine and complain about threads you don't like? don't enter the friggin thread if you don't like it. if you don't want to read about how terrible andrea is on the glass, don't enter a thread with a title that has bargnani and rebounding in it.

if people want to harp on how bad bargnani rebounds, SO WHAT? does this affect your life somehow? i don't understand how people get into such a huff over stupid crap like that.

dude is a 7ft "center" and is one of the worst rebounders of all-time for his size. that IS a noteworthy fact imo, even if we already know he's awful. even if i didn't think it was worth talking about, i wouldn't bitch and moan about someone bringing it up.

its time to grow up.

[illestplaya]

He was drafted first overal for his potential not because he was expected to come into the leaque and make a huge impact like most overall number one picks. He has not even played 1 and a half seasons yet. And in my opinion rebounds are a misleading stat. Alot of times it will be one player doing most of the working boxing out, and anothe player grabbing the rebound and getting the stat, or tipping the ball to another player as jack was talking about. The only real rebounds are the ones that you grab in traffic with the opposing team all over you, which andrea can not do but he is 7 feet tall...so once he understands the game a little better, he will start using his height and length to grab them.

To say that its the centers job to rebound is wrong....its the teams job to rebound...if bosh nd andrea box out the oppsing team and jose calderon gets more rebounds then them....ill be prefectly happy with that. Now im not saying that this is the reason why andrea is having poor rebouding numbers, im saying this because the guy who made this tread is putting a sophmore on a list of top ten worst rebounders who are over 6 11'...

[Rhettmatic]

I'm curious: those of you who firmly believe Bargnani will evolve into a player worthy of a lottery pick, do you think he'll develop a rebounding game? A couple post moves?

I'd love to believe that was so, but this season has been discouraging.

I'm not sure I really see the benefit of having a centre who can knock down two three-pointers a game at the expense of playing in the paint or ever grabbing an offensive rebound.

Please, someone give me some optimism here.

[illestplaya]

I'm curious: those of you who firmly believe Bargnani will evolve into a player worthy of a lottery pick, do you think he'll develop a rebounding game? A couple post moves?

I'd love to believe that was so, but this season has been discouraging.

I'm not sure I really see the benefit of having a centre who can knock down two three-pointers a game at the expense of playing in the paint or ever grabbing an offensive rebound.

Please, someone give me some optimism here.

When andrea is at the top of the arc....where is the center that is guarding him standing?? probably very close to him....this clears up the paint and bosh can operate one on one vs his man and not have to worry about the opposing teams center comming over to help. Just the fact that andrea can hit the three disrupts opposing teams defences.

That is all the optimism you need

[chsh22]

Our starting SF got more blocks than our starting bigs got rebounds. And yet this is somehow Bargs' terrible rebounding holding us back.

Don't get me wrong, he needs to get more boards. Personally I think that will come once he understands what he needs to do to integrate himself to our offense properly.

[Harry Palmer]

I'm curious: those of you who firmly believe Bargnani will evolve into a player worthy of a lottery pick, do you think he'll develop a rebounding game? A couple post moves?

I'd love to believe that was so, but this season has been discouraging.

I'm not sure I really see the benefit of having a centre who can knock down two three-pointers a game at the expense of playing in the paint or ever grabbing an offensive rebound.

Please, someone give me some optimism here.

I think, and have pretty much always thought, that those hoping for him to turn weaknesses into strengths in areas like rebounding and post play are deceiving themselves. Those are not areas where there is much history, at all, to suggest that significant development can happen at Bargs' age.

BUT, the hope that does exist is in his strength, ie scoring. I think he has shown enough to warrant an opinion that it's not impossible that he could become an important enough offensive player to offset many of his weaknesses. I personally think that is next to impossible as a center, in that his weaknesses are in areas which are central to the position, pardon the pun, but just as a basketball player, meaning forward of some description, I think you could have a go to guy on offense who might not contribute much else, but is good enough to allow you to have other guys whose strengths are the other areas compensate as a team.

I think it will take a lot, and as I said, not at the 5, but I do think he has that kind of scoring potential.

Hope that helps some.

[tb40]

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Ok, explain to me why '3 years or so' is the appropriate timeline, as opposed to be at least as arbitrary as anyone SS could come up with?

Supersub can create all the threads he wants about Bargs and whatever other topic he wants as far as I'm concerned, but to me this really is of no consequence at this point in Bargs's career, as I mentioned in my previous thread, let's get him some tutoring over the summer, and then see how he has progressed next year and beyond.

If he still is a scrub rebounding wise, then SS has a thread, and we have a problem.

Simple as that.

[Reignman]

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More than anything else, effort.

Back in November he actually looked like an improved rebounder. About 7.5 boards every 40 minutes. Not great but a pretty nice improvement over last season (6.2 per 40) and there were lots of those 'see, I told you he could rebound!' type posts after a solid effort. But since December 1st he's gone in the tank (about 4 boards per 40 minutes) and you can only point to 1 game out of 15 where he was even at 10 per 40 (league average for a PF/C).

I agree with you to a certain extent, however, effort without direction (training) is pretty useless. I can't see the coaching staff putting in that much time during the season, not enough practice time, and to be honest, the team consists of 15 players and the team overall has elevated expectations this year.

Like I said earlier, this past off season was a complete joke of a training program for a young player trying to learn a new position and trying to develop skills that are foreign to him.

Next off season, they need to break him down and build him back up. I'm going to decide around this time next season whether this guy can be a center or not. And I also hope that Sam will be allowed to take off the kid gloves next season.