Tank World Order (10.0) The Empire Strikes Back

[Duffman100]

I’m sorry but drafting your own superstar is absolutely key if you look at history. Every single champion in the last century has had lottery talent on their team as a star player, with only one exception (2004 Pistons).

These two statements are always connected.

There is no doubt having a top 10 player in the league (almost always from the lottery is key to winning the title).

Tanking to get that player is NOT connected to winning and hasn't been proven to work.

You can call the actual process of focusing on the draft instead of the playoffs whatever you want. Even in this thread, there are only a few guys that wanna blow it up like a Hinkie type tank (I’m not totally against it but understand that requires major commitment).

I think most people here would prefer a stealth tank like the Scottie year.

But I'm not calling it whatever you wanted. Having a top 10 player in the league who was drafted in the lottery so far isn't connected to being the team that drafts that player. Especially given the player movement. Especially when we're looking top 5.

So when you say "I’m sorry but drafting your own superstar is absolutely key if you look at history." It's actually pretty factually incorrect. Especially when you look at that screenshot I shared.

[Duffman100]

I think it's really possible our FO has looked at this strategy and said,

"It's really hard to tank, get a superstar, build around that superstar and get a title team before that superstar decides to bolt".

Instead they remain relevant, build iteratively and then make a splash and use assets to buy a superstar when they becomes available. They've perhaps view that has a higher % gamble than the drafting game.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

Why do people think you have to draft top ten talent, did we not all live through 2019. That's not how we build a contender.

[billy_hoyle]

Why do people think you have to draft top ten talent, did we not all live through 2019. That's not how we build a contender.

Leonard via DeRozan and Poeltl (2x top 10 picks)
Gasol via JV (top 10 pick)
Ibaka via Ross (top 10 pick)

That's 4 direct top 10 picks converted for core 2019 guys.

Lowry was from a lottery pick (would have been Giannis if we kept it).

Three other (late) 1sts were also included in the above trades.

Premium draft capital was 100% required to build our contender.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

Why do people think you have to draft top ten talent, did we not all live through 2019. That's not how we build a contender.

Leonard via DeRozan and Poeltl (2x top 10 picks)
Gasol via JV (top 10 pick)
Ibaka via Ross (top 10 pick)

That's 4 direct top 10 picks converted for core 2019 guys.

Lowry was from a lottery pick (would have been Giannis if we kept it).

Three other (late) 1sts were also included in the above trades.

Premium draft capital was 100% required to build our contender.

Nice, now name one we drafted that was on our team in 2019.

[Los_29]

Drafting a superstar is extremely unlikely. But if the team is going nowhere and lacks talent (Tampa) then it's worth doing a stealth tank to take a shot at one. The 2021 draft was considered stacked and we got ourselves the ROTY. And even Scottie may not ever develop into that superstar caliber player that everyone desires. That just shows you how silly it is to want to continually be in the lottery. If we would've tanked last year we would have had a very mediocre prospect unless we got extremely lucky and landed Banchero. And even Banchero is unlikely to be that superstar talent that can lead a team to a championship. Those players are extremely rare and we could end up tanking the next 50 years and never land one of them.

[Johnny Bball]

You can call the actual process of focusing on the draft instead of the playoffs whatever you want. Even in this thread, there are only a few guys that wanna blow it up like a Hinkie type tank (I’m not totally against it but understand that requires major commitment).

I think most people here would prefer a stealth tank like the Scottie year.

I read "blow it up" a thousand times. A few guys? Come on. That's just revising history.

I think people say that out of frustration or are being hyperbolic. There are very few people that wanna start from scratch like Hinkie did with the Sixers. To be clear though, if someone proposes a Siakam or a Fred trade for example, I don’t consider that starting from scratch. A Hinkie type tank requires a complete vision shift. Trading Siakam or Fred for assets for example to better the team short or long term doesn’t necessarily fall under that.

Nope. There are people that say it every single year. As a matter of fact that's most of your lil tWo here and that's why its hung on and is so old. Pretty sure if I remember right, the guy that started this last 3 years version of the pitty party was all about blowing it up.

Blowing up the core is also blowing up the team. It's the same thing. Trading both is waiving the white flag of surrender.

[720]

These two statements are always connected.

There is no doubt having a top 10 player in the league (almost always from the lottery is key to winning the title).

Tanking to get that player is NOT connected to winning and hasn't been proven to work.

You can call the actual process of focusing on the draft instead of the playoffs whatever you want. Even in this thread, there are only a few guys that wanna blow it up like a Hinkie type tank (I’m not totally against it but understand that requires major commitment).

I think most people here would prefer a stealth tank like the Scottie year.

But I'm not calling it whatever you wanted. Having a top 10 player in the league who was drafted in the lottery so far isn't connected to being the team that drafts that player. Especially given the player movement. Especially when we're looking top 5.

So when you say "I’m sorry but drafting your own superstar is absolutely key if you look at history." It's actually pretty factually incorrect. Especially when you look at that screenshot I shared.

You say it’s not connected when I’m saying history shows us it very much IS connected. These are the following champions (this century) that were drafted in the Lotto that won with the team that drafted them.

Kobe x5, Duncan x5, Curry, x4, Wade x3, Dirk x1, Lebron x1, Giannis x1.

Curry and Wade numbers are higher because they attracted superstars to their teams (KD, and Lebron) but that only happened BECAUSE those teams already had homegrown lottery talent superstars in Curry and Wade.

The only exceptions to this are the Bubble Lakers, 2019 Raptors, and 2004 Pistons.

That’s 20 of the 23 champions.

[Los_29]

Why do people think you have to draft top ten talent, did we not all live through 2019. That's not how we build a contender.

Leonard via DeRozan and Poeltl (2x top 10 picks)
Gasol via JV (top 10 pick)
Ibaka via Ross (top 10 pick)

That's 4 direct top 10 picks converted for core 2019 guys.

Lowry was from a lottery pick (would have been Giannis if we kept it).

Three other (late) 1sts were also included in the above trades.

Premium draft capital was 100% required to build our contender.

This is an extremely flawed argument.

All those players we traded for were non-lottery picks. Orlando didn't trade Ibaka because they wanted Terrence Ross. Memphis didn't trade Gasol because they wanted JV. In fact they traded JV a couple years later for essentially nothing. The Spurs wanted OG and Pascal more than Derozan and Poeltl.

We traded a FRP for Lowry. Where it landed is irrelevant.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

Why do people think you have to draft top ten talent, did we not all live through 2019. That's not how we build a contender.

Leonard via DeRozan and Poeltl (2x top 10 picks)
Gasol via JV (top 10 pick)
Ibaka via Ross (top 10 pick)

That's 4 direct top 10 picks converted for core 2019 guys.

Lowry was from a lottery pick (would have been Giannis if we kept it).

Three other (late) 1sts were also included in the above trades.

Premium draft capital was 100% required to build our contender.

This is an extremely flawed argument.

All those players we traded for were non-lottery picks. Orlando didn't trade Ibaka because they wanted Terrence Ross. Memphis didn't trade Gasol because they wanted JV. In fact they traded JV a couple years later for essentially nothing. The Spurs wanted OG and Pascal more than Derozan and Poeltl.

We traded a FRP for Lowry. Where it landed is irrelevant.

You can get top ten talent lots of ways. The draft is a poor one.

[ItsDanger]

The argument against tanking ignores all the other variables for successful rebuild. Tanking/rebuilding or getting top lottery picks is just the first and easiest step. Building upon that foundation requires a lot more.

[ATLTimekeeper]

You say it’s not connected when I’m saying history shows us it very much IS connected. These are the following champions (this century) that were drafted in the Lotto that won with the team that drafted them.

Kobe x5, Duncan x5, Curry, x4, Wade x3, Dirk x1, Lebron x1, Giannis x1.

Curry and Wade numbers are higher because they attracted superstars to their teams (KD, and Lebron) but that only happened BECAUSE those teams already had homegrown lottery talent superstars in Curry and Wade.

The only exceptions to this are the Bubble Lakers, 2019 Raptors, and 2004 Pistons.

That’s 20 of the 23 champions.

And Kobe was acquired via trade, which is like 1/4 of those titles. Giannis was drafted 15th, which is the no man's land people are using as a boogeyman in these types of threads.

Kobe 5, Giannis 1, Bubble Lakers 1, Raptors 1, Pistons 1. 9/23 champions without tanking for that franchise player.

[ChillPill]

I'm not necessarily against what the Raps did to get Scottie, the one-year tank. But the 5 year+ blow-it-all-up tank doesn't make sense to me. Also we can do that at any time, you just... Can't go back from it.

I'm also not for selling-off our players for less than their worth for a slightly higher probability of a high pick though. It's hard to be bad enough to really have the percentages be that much higher. We'd need to get extremely lucky to get Wemby or Scoot even if we had tanked.

It also doesn't even make sense to cheer against our players now, as it would mean that those players are lesser. Obviously, it's better for the franchise to have better players / assets.

I can honestly believe Masai isn't sure what to think about our team and our coaching. So hopefully this final 23 games, with Poetl, will at least resolve that.

[Duffman100]

You can call the actual process of focusing on the draft instead of the playoffs whatever you want. Even in this thread, there are only a few guys that wanna blow it up like a Hinkie type tank (I’m not totally against it but understand that requires major commitment).

I think most people here would prefer a stealth tank like the Scottie year.

But I'm not calling it whatever you wanted. Having a top 10 player in the league who was drafted in the lottery so far isn't connected to being the team that drafts that player. Especially given the player movement. Especially when we're looking top 5.

So when you say "I’m sorry but drafting your own superstar is absolutely key if you look at history." It's actually pretty factually incorrect. Especially when you look at that screenshot I shared.

You say it’s not connected when I’m saying history shows us it very much IS connected. These are the following champions (this century) that were drafted in the Lotto that won with the team that drafted them.

Kobe x5, Duncan x5, Curry, x4, Wade x3, Dirk x1, Lebron x1, Giannis x1.

Curry and Wade numbers are higher because they attracted superstars to their teams (KD, and Lebron) but that only happened BECAUSE those teams already had homegrown lottery talent superstars in Curry and Wade.

The only exceptions to this are the Bubble Lakers, 2019 Raptors, and 2004 Pistons.

That’s 20 of the 23 champions.

Lakers traded for Kobe. Essentially they got him the exact way they got Shaq. They’re the lakers.

Dirk was drafted 9th. Curry 7th. Giannis 15th. Wade had Bosh and Lebron join him in free agency. Cavs had Lebron rejoin them.

That leaves Duncan. The Spurs had one bad year because of a Robinson injury. They didn’t stealth tank … he got hurt.

These are bad examples to wanting to sell of assets and “stealth” tank for a top 3 pick.

[Duffman100]

The argument against tanking ignores all the other variables for successful rebuild. Tanking/rebuilding or getting top lottery picks is just the first and easiest step. Building upon that foundation requires a lot more.

And again. Hasn’t been proven successful by anyone. We’re not ignoring the other variables. If anything, the other variables become more difficult to accomplish after you’ve acquired the top lottery pick because now you’re a bad team trying to claw up.

[ItsDanger]

The argument against tanking ignores all the other variables for successful rebuild. Tanking/rebuilding or getting top lottery picks is just the first and easiest step. Building upon that foundation requires a lot more.

And again. Hasn’t been proven successful by anyone. We’re not ignoring the other variables. If anything, the other variables become more difficult to accomplish after you’ve acquired the top lottery pick because now you’re a bad team trying to claw up.

I view Raps own championship as a result of tanking/rebuilding. Required a lot of other moves especially trades. But it laid the foundation. Tanking isn't just about finishing dead last. Teams are built often with back end of the top 10. IMO, Spurs and Rockets were the only true tanking teams at beginning of the year

[Duffman100]

The argument against tanking ignores all the other variables for successful rebuild. Tanking/rebuilding or getting top lottery picks is just the first and easiest step. Building upon that foundation requires a lot more.

And again. Hasn’t been proven successful by anyone. We’re not ignoring the other variables. If anything, the other variables become more difficult to accomplish after you’ve acquired the top lottery pick because now you’re a bad team trying to claw up.

I view Raps own championship as a result of tanking/rebuilding. Required a lot of other moves especially trades. But it laid the foundation. Tanking isn't just about finishing dead last. Teams are built often with back end of the top 10. IMO, Spurs and Rockets were the only true tanking teams at beginning of the year

This is revisionist history. The largest complaint of the Colangelo years was that moves were made to just get us to the playoffs. It was the definition of treadmilling.

This championship wasn’t a product of tanking. The championship was a product of asset management and pouncing on an opportunity.

[Los_29]

It's tiresome having to constantly debunk the same bad examples of "successful" tanks. The harsh reality is there really aren't any.

[Duffman100]

It's tiresome having to constantly debunk the same bad examples of "successful" tanks. The harsh reality is there really aren't any.

The Thunder is the best example. They made the finals. They just weren’t able to keep the people together and / or there wasn’t enough ball to go around.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

We had Vince and T-mac on the same team. We're a good example on why this doesn't work.