2025 NBA Draft Discussion Part 7

[ciueli]

One of the skills that virtually always translates from college to the NBA is defence, CMB is arguably the best defender in the entire draft. A lot of teams are looking for players who can defend across multiple positions as they see how successful strong defensive teams are becoming in the NBA. The shooting is an issue, but that's often an area of development that players can improve on after entering the NBA, unlike defence, it's hard to think of a player who started out a bad defender but became a great one.

There are lots of players who couldn't shoot early in their career but developed it later, Julius Randle shot 16.7% from 3 in college and I just watched a Western Conference Finals game where he shot 5 of 6 from 3. Brook Lopez is another example, shot below 15% from 3 in college, was basically a non-3 point shooter for his first 8 seasons in the NBA, but has shot over league average 3 point percentage his past 3 seasons. Kawhi was a 25% 3 point shooter in college, it's very common to enter the NBA as a poor shooter and develop it, teams will often gamble on players if they elite skills in other areas but don't shoot well.

CMB is a 3+D without the 3.

If you're going to make a list of players who didn't shot the 3 well in college, you'll find many more who never improve their percentages than the exceptions to the rule you've pointed out.

We already have a player on our team with the same skills and deficiencies who we're hoping can improve his shot. His name is Scottie Barnes.

At this point there is no evidence to suggest CMB is going to be able to develop a consistent 3 point shot and should we draft him, we'll likely be having the same discussions about him in 2-3 years that we're having about Scottie today.

At some point you have to accept that we are drafting 9th and not top 5. If CMB was a decent 3 point shooter in college he'd be going top 5 in this draft no question, I'm not saying we should take him at 9 but I do think there is a legitimate reason to consider him there given our need for better defence around players like Ingram, Barrett, Quickley, and Gradey.

If we were willing to draft Scottie at 4 in a strong 2021 draft shouldn't we consider drafting a similar player at 9 in 2025? Is the fit bad with Scottie? Yeah, but for the first couple of years I assume CMB would be Scottie's understudy anyway so I'm not sure it's an issue right away, it's also possible he can play small ball centre at times, I just watched Alex Caruso used as the primary defender on Nikola Jokic in a do-or-die playoff game so I'm thinking that it may not be crazy to see CMB as a part time Draymond Green type if his defence really is at that level. Not the ideal pick, but if we did draft him I would understand why.

[dohboy_24]

So you might pick him at #9 if he shot well, but was a worse defender and rebounder?

I don't understand how being really good at things is a negative.
If he shot 35% from 3 in college on decent volume and was a 80% free throw shooter he's closer to Flagg at #1 than he is to Harper at #2.

Being good at things isn't really a negative unless you already have players who are good/great at the same things and the player you're drafting doesn't offer many skills/abilities beyond what you already have on your roster at the same position.

For the same reason I'm not really a fan of drafting Kon Knueppel or Liam McNeeley because their skills overlap too much with Gradey Dick.

[LoveMyRaps]

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[dohboy_24]

I don't get this. Why would he need to lose weight? He's built like a football player. He already does well to stay in front of wings and holds his own against guards. His big body and the way he's able to create space for himself on drives is one of his biggest advantages. What does it matter what he's classified as?

Defending wings and being one on offense are two different things. If he's going to play backup SF/wing to BI3 as suggested by the other poster, how is he going to do that at his current weight and height when there aren't many, if any players in the NBA currently doing such things?

[Clutch0z24]

Yeah...I hate saying this out loud, but I see him being a smaller Ant...lol. I can just see him being a star....certainly way more than other guys we are discussing that fit very good into roles we need....like 3+D, backup C, etc...

I will trust Masai....but....

Yeah i feel Jase is being slept on due to his height alone...Which a few years down the line lots of teams will be asking themselves "Why did we pass on this guy" ....And we actually desperatly need a PG on this team....We need another guy who can control the game and get buckets....We have IQ/Shaed but i think both are replaceable if you get a better guard....I see a bouncier Brunson....He can create his own shot pretty elite ...

But i get it we just came off of FVV so people are sour on smaller players...But you can't just look at Jase height because he doesn't play like a small player....Jase is deff high on my board...He deff can be a high level play maker...He might not have played PG but he did his whole life up until college...But he has 68 Ast/30 TO....So he takes care of the ball...

The thing with Jase too is that he can play with IQ and Shead vs certain lineups too.

With IQ, IQ could be a movement SG running around creating lanes for others and give shooting from outside.

With Shead, smaller duo for sure but as we saw with Lowry/Fred, good defensively so could give opponents fits.

Jase just gives us something we lack but who's offense could give us a potential star. The other guys give us something we need(3+D, C) but I just don't see star potential.

Man this draft could go so many ways.

Couldn't agree with you more....With Bryant/Fleming/Noa i see role players (Maybe even great role players) ...But with Jase ....I know he will as well be a great role player due to him being one of the best shot creators/Highest BPM under Flagg in the draft....Difference to me as well is if Jase hits his peak thats a star level/all star guy...Due to being able to break guys down off the dribble, And shot create for himself and others....^ The other guys people love here do not have that ability...

Will be interesting draft for sure...Right now Jase is getting No Buzz in mock drafts and that but im confident Masai has him on his list...Because Masai likes winning players and Jase is one of them winners..

[Jadoogar]

For me it's simple, if he develops a shot he's a top 3 player in this draft, the rest of his game is already well advanced for a sophomore. Not a lot of people here wants to wait or bet on him developing his shot to a respectable level because of Scottie and I get it but I would take him regardless and do everything I can to improve his shot. At his size when he gets downhill He's like a mini Zion. He's simply just a very good basketball player.

to Grant

Did you watch him shoot at the combine? He won't become a better shooter from 3 than Draymond. Draymond is a 32% 3pt shooter, which is better than MJ and Kobe! Though in today's NBA if he's shooting more than a wide open catch and shoot it's hurting the team.

Fleming isn't overrated. He's being mocked in the teens and even in the 20's. Those that like him know that he can be on Bam's level who was drafted 14th. A taller lankier Bam that can shoot 3's might be his ceiling but damn, that's insane. Maybe a shorter Serge Ibaka that can guard 3-5?

Yeah, I watched him shoot, and it's not pretty. He's a decent ft shooter and has good touch down low, so I'm not ruling it out however. Kawhi and Draymond were also pretty poor shooters in college. I don't think it ever becomes a strength, but I see a world where it becomes respectable.

I always caution against using outliers as examples. For every Kawhi, Giannis, or Jokic, there's a hundred Michael Kidd-Gilchrists, Bruno Caboclos and Elrifd Payton.

People think all prospects can learn to shoot because, unlike height, it's something you can improve on. But most times, people only remember the successful examples. Most prospects actually don't become substantially better shooters.

[Clutch0z24]

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Might be talking myself to picking him 9th...Think we need more people on the Jase bandwagon

[dohboy_24]

LOL... I just can't escape the irony.

Last year, we debated at length about whether to convey the pick to the Spurs or not and in the end, they selected Rob Dillingham at #8 before trading him to the Timberwolves.

This year we have the #9 pick and some posters are suggesting we should pick a very similar prospect in size and skills in a draft that was supposed to be so much stronger that many were suggesting we'd get a better prospect at the bottom of the lottery than the top 6 in last year's draft.

Make it make sense...

[Psubs]

If CMB could shoot he would be better than the majority of the players being discussed here.....CMB is a better defender and a better all around player than majority of the players in the 9th area....Problem is he can't shoot atm.....If we draft him its because Masai thinks his shot will be good one day....Because if he can shoot i like him alot more than Rasheer/Noa/Bryant because hes a better defender/playmaker/offensive versitility than them all....Just that shot man....Idk how it would fit with this current team...

If CMB could even show some shooting like Condon, he would be ahead of Queen and be a top 5 pick.

[Clutch0z24]

LOL... I just can't escape the irony.

Last year, we debated at length about whether to convey the pick to the Spurs or not and in the end, they selected Rob Dillingham at #8 before trading him to the Timberwolves.

This year we have the #9 pick and some posters are suggesting we should pick a very similar prospect in size and skills in a draft that was supposed to be so much stronger that many were suggesting we'd get a better prospect at the bottom of the lottery than the top 6 in last year's draft.

Make it make sense...

If you are comparing Jase to Dillingham....You are very very wrong on that comparasin as its not even close to the same style of player.... You are again judging his height instead of actual game....Dillingham was more of a scorer and that was it....Lou williams type....Jase is a playmaking/slashing shot creator who is + defender....Dillingham is not a defender....

[JCP11]

to Grant

Did you watch him shoot at the combine? He won't become a better shooter from 3 than Draymond. Draymond is a 32% 3pt shooter, which is better than MJ and Kobe! Though in today's NBA if he's shooting more than a wide open catch and shoot it's hurting the team.

Fleming isn't overrated. He's being mocked in the teens and even in the 20's. Those that like him know that he can be on Bam's level who was drafted 14th. A taller lankier Bam that can shoot 3's might be his ceiling but damn, that's insane. Maybe a shorter Serge Ibaka that can guard 3-5?

Yeah, I watched him shoot, and it's not pretty. He's a decent ft shooter and has good touch down low, so I'm not ruling it out however. Kawhi and Draymond were also pretty poor shooters in college. I don't think it ever becomes a strength, but I see a world where it becomes respectable.

I always caution against using outliers as examples. For every Kawhi, Giannis, or Jokic, there's a hundred Michael Kidd-Gilchrists, Bruno Caboclos and Elrifd Payton.

People think all prospects can learn to shoot because, unlike height, it's something you can improve on. But most times, people only remember the successful examples. Most prospects actually don't become substantially better shooters.

True and fair point but in his case you have to look clues that would suggest he could get better, I've seen videos of him making mid range shots in highschool and getting from 0 to 26.5% suggest he is getting better. I also don't think his shot is broken, it can use some adjustments but I can see a path for improvement. I think the combine performance has scared a lot of fans away but scouts and teams won't put too much stock in it. Workouts will be the biggest factor.

[Psubs]

LOL... I just can't escape the irony.

Last year, we debated at length about whether to convey the pick to the Spurs or not and in the end, they selected Rob Dillingham at #8 before trading him to the Timberwolves.

This year we have the #9 pick and some posters are suggesting we should pick a very similar prospect in size and skills in a draft that was supposed to be so much stronger that many were suggesting we'd get a better prospect at the bottom of the lottery than the top 6 in last year's draft.

Make it make sense...

I would've tanked properly. Drafted Edey at #8. Then likely be a little worse and maybe get a pick 2-4 (since #1 was promised to Dallas).

[Psubs]

Yeah, I watched him shoot, and it's not pretty. He's a decent ft shooter and has good touch down low, so I'm not ruling it out however. Kawhi and Draymond were also pretty poor shooters in college. I don't think it ever becomes a strength, but I see a world where it becomes respectable.

I always caution against using outliers as examples. For every Kawhi, Giannis, or Jokic, there's a hundred Michael Kidd-Gilchrists, Bruno Caboclos and Elrifd Payton.

People think all prospects can learn to shoot because, unlike height, it's something you can improve on. But most times, people only remember the successful examples. Most prospects actually don't become substantially better shooters.

True and fair point but in his case you have to look clues that would suggest he could get better, I've seen videos of him making mid range shots in highschool and getting from 0 to 26.5% suggest he is getting better. I also don't think his shot is broken, it can use some adjustments but I can see a path for improvement. I think the combine performance has scared a lot of fans away but scouts and teams won't put too much stock in it. Workouts will be the biggest factor.

Like what has he been doing since the end of his season to the combine? It really should've been putting up 200 shots per day.

[Grew]

Man... Not gonna lie, CMB would just be the most boring pick possible. After the season we just had, to fall to 9th to draft a Scottie/Mogbo remix? Damnnn that would be tough to see.

[grant101]

to Grant

Did you watch him shoot at the combine? He won't become a better shooter from 3 than Draymond. Draymond is a 32% 3pt shooter, which is better than MJ and Kobe! Though in today's NBA if he's shooting more than a wide open catch and shoot it's hurting the team.

Fleming isn't overrated. He's being mocked in the teens and even in the 20's. Those that like him know that he can be on Bam's level who was drafted 14th. A taller lankier Bam that can shoot 3's might be his ceiling but damn, that's insane. Maybe a shorter Serge Ibaka that can guard 3-5?

Yeah, I watched him shoot, and it's not pretty. He's a decent ft shooter and has good touch down low, so I'm not ruling it out however. Kawhi and Draymond were also pretty poor shooters in college. I don't think it ever becomes a strength, but I see a world where it becomes respectable.

I always caution against using outliers as examples. For every Kawhi, Giannis, or Jokic, there's a hundred Michael Kidd-Gilchrists, Bruno Caboclos and Elrifd Payton.

People think all prospects can learn to shoot because, unlike height, it's something you can improve on. But most times, people only remember the successful examples. Most prospects actually don't become substantially better shooters.

Agreed. That's why I said he's unlikely to become a good shooter (though of course, there's an outliers chance and some of the indicators are positive) and why I don't like his fit with our team. What confuses me, however, is that while bagging CMB for being a bad shooter unlikely to improve, some seem to overlook shooting faults with other prospects with far more limited games (Essengue & Fleming primarily).

[WuTang_OG]

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[Grew]

Jase is interesting. Don't think Masai would use 9 on him though.

[Psubs]

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So he hit two 3's but was just 2 for 9 from inside?

[Grew]

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So your saying 6'9 with physical tools and nothing else? Masai just creamed his jeans.

[JCP11]

Yeah he may not throw down poster dunks on guys on the regular but if you go and do a deep dive on his game tape....You will see he can attack the rim in a verity of ways....He can also hang in the air on them layups and has all kind of finishes with both hands....His size deff will not impact his game at all....But even in games he can dunk it when he wants too....But he also is one of the best shot creators in the class....I like also how he gets to the FT line as a smaller guard....and he hit 102-122 of them....Thats elite stuff right there...We desperatly need a player who can get to the FT line....

He maybe 6'1" but he plays like a 6'6" player....sim to how Lowry/Brunson play....He would be a good player to have if you want a backup plan to IQ...

I'm not convinced he's a good fit for the Raptors.

While he has the size of a PG, he has the skills of a SG so he'd probably do best playing beside a jumbo playmaker in the backcourt like Josh Giddey (Chicago), LaMelo Ball (Charlotte), Cade Cunningham (Detroit) or Luka Doncic (LA Lakers) would can defend the SG while Jase defends the PG.

Considering the physical similarities to someone like Tahaad Pettiford, what is the difference between them when you consider Pettiford is a true PG who can finish at the rim with both hands, create off the dribble and shot the 3 ball?

If you have not done lots of research on Jase....But in High school Jase was a PG....He played PG all his life....Ik in college he played Combo gaurd where he was sometimes a PG and alot off ball SG....But in Highschool he had 15/4/4/2Stls/1Blk per gam....< Thats a pretty good stat line for a PG....

But yeah i get it you never seen him play PG in College so you don't believe he can do it ....But his Handles to me suggest he can and has a good Ast/TO Ratio...I don't think he is a combo guard in the NBA and a team that gets him will run him as a full time 3 level scoring PG ...

I think at the end of the day lots of teams will be looking back and wonder why Jase was not picked higher...Because i feel hes going to be one of the better players ....Considering he had the 2nd best BPM In the Class behind Flagg...

You haven't answer the part of his question when he asked what's the difference between Jase and Pettiford and what makes him a better choice? I've asked that question to Jase fans but never got an answer. Tahaad to me is a better PG , more explosive and more skilled. Other than being 10 lbs lighter I don't see why Jase is talked about more than Tahaad. Don't get me wrong I like Jase too but I'd like to know what Jase fans think about this. Thanks in advance.