Windhorst: Raptors making noise around the league looking for a “big fish” // Giannis & Toronto "Mutual Interest"/KD too

[Tha Cynic]

https://www.reddit.com/r/torontoraptors/s/ROpgIhp7rM

Sam Vecenie thinks Poeltl + RJ + Dick for KD gets it done.

Our Center position already sucks so not a fan of trading our only Center. Currently, we need to add a Center in addition to Poeltl, let alone go get 2 new ones in this scenario. We have already seen how trying to win without the Center position solidified works...

Poeltl in a trade with no center coming back isn't a hot look at all.

Durant, Ingram, Quickley with no 5 is like Phoenix Suns East.

[sidsid]

Masai's job is on the line, which is generally a bad thing for making big moves. Other teams know this and will squeeze us. He's already canvassed the league with our agenda. I'm not worried about the price of Giannis, because he's a top 5 player right now. I'm worried that we miss out on Giannis and get bled for lesser stars or Durant, who is still great but at an age where rapid decline can just happen one season to the next.

I would be worried if Masai had ever given up too much before, and he never has, so this is based on nothing. In fact, he has been criticized for overvaluing his own assets in the past, but he has generally been right including his stance on guys like Siakam and OG. You cheer for a team who's decision-maker seems to be able to evaluate talent at an elite level.

Yeah even the poeltl trade. The value of was totally fine just bad timing for the trade.

It's looking more like the Suns aren't ready to blow it up and give up Booker with the likely destination being the Rockets so that they can tank with their picks back.

That's good news for our potential Durant package. They're going to want a version of our OG trade. A bunch of lesser players for their better player who can all contribute right away. That's the various combos of Jak/IQ/Ochai/RJ/Grady. Upside on most of that is fading and they're all contracts meant for trading anyway. Worst case scenario is you get cap space which is arguably more valuable than any of those pieces individually to other teams.

You just want the least damaging trade to your future picks and future unprotected picks aren't helping them surround Booker.

[WuTang_CMB]

Some bad masai narratives as usual on here. Guy has ATL chasing him and will have half the league looking to hire him if he isn’t retained.

Masai is being opportunistic as he should be with the state of the team, east and league

[sidsid]

I feel like that's what the OG Masai move would be. Don't overpay and deplete your team of assets for a superstar. And for sure not one that is at the end of their career. Just keep building your team until you find a superstar for a reasonable price or just develop one.

What I think makes this different is Giannis and Masai knowing each other. Masai must just push extra hard to get him. And Masai is also at the end of his deal so might be forced to make a move like this or KD.

The Kawhi deal is a different flavour of the Durant option now. Instead of age being the issue, Kawhi had both health and "I'm going to LA" as the value dampeners on an expiring contract. The KD assumption is either that he is already washed now, or the upside is that he beats father time and gives you two or 3 years of elite-ish enough play.

The Giannis value problem is that most of our value is entirely in our useful players/best assets. That's the cost of not rebuilding and building the asset base.

The value plays are all risky, sane as Kawhi was. Embiid, Zion, etc.

Would Giannis package really be that risky?....I mean we obviously get the best player in the deal by a mile.....Giving up Barnes for Giannis is basically a wash....Because i don't think Barnes/Giannis look good on the court anyways....Outside of Barnes its prolly Dick/Ochai to match salaries....Out of them 3 players which player are you really worried about giving up for Giannis?....Now if its RJ as well im prolly taking off Dick in the deal...So either way im keeping one of the young SGs...

Draft pick wise which will be the biggest risk in the deal....You give up the 9th....Chances that 9th pick becomes an all star level player? ....Might be a good 35%....Chances are its just another role player....As for future picks all the picks if Giannis is on the team are prolly 20-30th area in terms of value....Can you really add anything valuable in that range in the draft? Sure but not likely....We will still have 2nd round picks and undrafted players to choose from which Masai shows a good track record of getting gems here and there....

With Giannis you are a title contender for a long time...Paired with IQ/Yak/RJ or Dick/Ingram Young bench Walter/Shead/Mogbo/Chomche/Battle...
I like the makeup of that team ....Can count on a few good Vets to come here as well in FA or Buy outs on the cheap to fill holes in the team....

Anyone saying that would be Bucks 2.0 ^ Are lying to themselves...

Clarifying that no, Giannis is not risky in terms of expected output (other than the thought that his output is heavily linked to his athleticism, which tends to start waning in your early 30s). That's why he's going to cost a ton. The Bucks will get full value.

The value plays on our end are Durant (too old), and the injured goods (Zion, etc.).

[anotherhomer]

https://www.reddit.com/r/torontoraptors/s/ROpgIhp7rM

Sam Vecenie thinks Poeltl + RJ + Dick for KD gets it done.

Our Center position already sucks so not a fan of trading our only Center. Currently, we need to add a Center in addition to Poeltl, let alone go get 2 new ones in this scenario. We have already seen how trying to win without the Center position solidified works...

Poeltl in a trade with no center coming back isn't a hot look at all.

Durant, Ingram, Quickley with no 5 is like Phoenix Suns East.

it's Quickley, Ingram, Barnes, Durant

then you have Ochai manning the 2 spot along with the 9th spot.

You just play Barnes at center because he's strong and physical.

If Ujiri and by extension (Rap fans) have 1 season before Ed install a super mediocre GM guy, then i'm ok with this

[Tha Cynic]

Some bad masai narratives as usual on here. Guy has ATL chasing him and will have half the league looking to hire him if he isn’t retained.

Masai is being opportunistic as he should be with the state of the team, east and league

He has made some mistakes, but as the days and months pass, you can see why he made some of the decisions he made. I don't expect anyone to be perfect lol

Poeltl
Siakam
Barnes
OG
FVV

Where does that team sit today? It's kind of obvious why he made that trade for Poeltl and a first rounder to try to make that team work imo wasn't a terrible idea. The Thad Young trade was a bad trade.

But man, he wins a lot of trades and knows how to be creative while a major aspects of building a team is basically not possible in Toronto (free agency). Good luck finding someone better than him. Last season was the first season of a rebuild. The bench looks better. To bring up 30 wins as if that wasn't expected is funny.

[ciueli]

Clarifying that no, Giannis is not risky in terms of expected output (other than the thought that his output is heavily linked to his athleticism, which tends to start waning in your early 30s). That's why he's going to cost a ton. The Bucks will get full value.

The value plays on our end are Durant (too old), and the injured goods (Zion, etc.).

I still think Sabonis may be available, Jak + Barrett for him would work. He is a better fit with Scottie IMO because he's been hitting the 3 a bit the last 3 seasons, shot nearly 42% from 3 this season on 2.2 attempts per game. Not sure if Masai does it because he is a huge fan of Jak but I would consider it an upgrade at C even if Sabonis is a little worse defensively, he fits in perfectly with Darko's passing at C scheme.

[S.W.A.N]

Some bad masai narratives as usual on here. Guy has ATL chasing him and will have half the league looking to hire him if he isn’t retained.

Masai is being opportunistic as he should be with the state of the team, east and league

Exactly. Masai isn't going to panic because of his contract. He can get a new job any time he wants.

He's looking for championships. There is a window of opportunity here IF he can get the right deal. And if he can't land a Giannis or Durant he'll keep moving pieces around and developing our assets until we get that next opportunity.

[Clutch0z24]

The Kawhi deal is a different flavour of the Durant option now. Instead of age being the issue, Kawhi had both health and "I'm going to LA" as the value dampeners on an expiring contract. The KD assumption is either that he is already washed now, or the upside is that he beats father time and gives you two or 3 years of elite-ish enough play.

The Giannis value problem is that most of our value is entirely in our useful players/best assets. That's the cost of not rebuilding and building the asset base.

The value plays are all risky, sane as Kawhi was. Embiid, Zion, etc.

Would Giannis package really be that risky?....I mean we obviously get the best player in the deal by a mile.....Giving up Barnes for Giannis is basically a wash....Because i don't think Barnes/Giannis look good on the court anyways....Outside of Barnes its prolly Dick/Ochai to match salaries....Out of them 3 players which player are you really worried about giving up for Giannis?....Now if its RJ as well im prolly taking off Dick in the deal...So either way im keeping one of the young SGs...

Draft pick wise which will be the biggest risk in the deal....You give up the 9th....Chances that 9th pick becomes an all star level player? ....Might be a good 35%....Chances are its just another role player....As for future picks all the picks if Giannis is on the team are prolly 20-30th area in terms of value....Can you really add anything valuable in that range in the draft? Sure but not likely....We will still have 2nd round picks and undrafted players to choose from which Masai shows a good track record of getting gems here and there....

With Giannis you are a title contender for a long time...Paired with IQ/Yak/RJ or Dick/Ingram Young bench Walter/Shead/Mogbo/Chomche/Battle...
I like the makeup of that team ....Can count on a few good Vets to come here as well in FA or Buy outs on the cheap to fill holes in the team....

Anyone saying that would be Bucks 2.0 ^ Are lying to themselves...

Clarifying that no, Giannis is not risky in terms of expected output (other than the thought that his output is heavily linked to his athleticism, which tends to start waning in your early 30s). That's why he's going to cost a ton. The Bucks will get full value.

The value plays on our end are Durant (too old), and the injured goods (Zion, etc.).

I don't think his game will go down hill in a year or two....Giannis will impact the game till hes 35 at least....He takes care of his body......I would not be too concerned about that....Giannis will always be better than Scottie even as he ages.....I think the cost for Giannis will be Barnes/Dick/Ochai #9, and anywhere from 2-4 FRPs with swaps in that 2-4 picks ...Which if its 2-3 id be fine giving up....

You won't get a true number 1 option with any of the players/draft picks involved ^ or Unlikley too.....Giannis raises the title odds by alot for us where i think none of the players we have are good enough to compete for titles....

And if you are trying to save assets to try and get another "Big fish" Well no player will be available anytime soon on Giannis level for a very long time.

[Grew]

Clarifying that no, Giannis is not risky in terms of expected output (other than the thought that his output is heavily linked to his athleticism, which tends to start waning in your early 30s). That's why he's going to cost a ton. The Bucks will get full value.

The value plays on our end are Durant (too old), and the injured goods (Zion, etc.).

I still think Sabonis may be available, Jak + Barrett for him would work. He is a better fit with Scottie IMO because he's been hitting the 3 a bit the last 3 seasons, shot nearly 42% from 3 this season on 2.2 attempts per game. Not sure if Masai does it because he is a huge fan of Jak but I would consider it an upgrade at C even if Sabonis is a little worse defensively, he fits in perfectly with Darko's passing at C scheme.

sabonis as our starting C and only playable C would be a nightmare. Dude can't protect the rim at all, we would just be the kings east. The pressure on Scottie to protect the rim would be immense. I think we would be a better team rolling out the current starting lineup.

[ciueli]

Clarifying that no, Giannis is not risky in terms of expected output (other than the thought that his output is heavily linked to his athleticism, which tends to start waning in your early 30s). That's why he's going to cost a ton. The Bucks will get full value.

The value plays on our end are Durant (too old), and the injured goods (Zion, etc.).

I still think Sabonis may be available, Jak + Barrett for him would work. He is a better fit with Scottie IMO because he's been hitting the 3 a bit the last 3 seasons, shot nearly 42% from 3 this season on 2.2 attempts per game. Not sure if Masai does it because he is a huge fan of Jak but I would consider it an upgrade at C even if Sabonis is a little worse defensively, he fits in perfectly with Darko's passing at C scheme.

sabonis as our starting C and only playable C would be a nightmare. Dude can't protect the rim at all, we would just be the kings east. The pressure on Scottie to protect the rim would be immense. I think we would be a better team rolling out the current starting lineup.

I think you're overrating Jak a little and underrating Saboins, he isn't that bad a defender, he has just had no help on that Sacramento team the entire time he's been there. With Scottie + some other solid defenders on our roster I think it would be fine, I'd rather have a player who can do what Sabonis does on offence (better passing, shooting, rebounding) along with playing around 35 MPG and mostly full season schedules vs. 30 MPG from Jak who misses significant games each season.

[Grew]

I still think Sabonis may be available, Jak + Barrett for him would work. He is a better fit with Scottie IMO because he's been hitting the 3 a bit the last 3 seasons, shot nearly 42% from 3 this season on 2.2 attempts per game. Not sure if Masai does it because he is a huge fan of Jak but I would consider it an upgrade at C even if Sabonis is a little worse defensively, he fits in perfectly with Darko's passing at C scheme.

sabonis as our starting C and only playable C would be a nightmare. Dude can't protect the rim at all, we would just be the kings east. The pressure on Scottie to protect the rim would be immense. I think we would be a better team rolling out the current starting lineup.

I think you're overrating Jak a little and underrating Saboins, he isn't that bad a defender, he has just had no help on that Sacramento team the entire time he's been there. With Scottie + some other solid defenders on our roster I think it would be fine, I'd rather have a player who can do what Sabonis does on offence (better passing, shooting, rebounding) along with playing around 35 MPG and mostly full season schedules vs. 30 MPG from Jak who misses significant games each season.

I don't even necessarily love Jak as our starting C. I haven't seen him on a good enough team to make an assessment on if I believe he can anchor a contenders defense. At least he has true C size. I'd rather not get any smaller. If I wanted a sabonis type skillset, I would rather do all we can to get Queen in this draft, and keep all the guys we have.

I've never been a sabonis fan, I don't believe you can have playoff success with him as your main C. He needs to at least be able to play the 4 if the matchups call for it, so a true C that is a capable rim protector is a necessity if I'm building a team with Sabonis on it IMO. Also I don't like him on the perimeter all that much, he doesn't attempt a ton of 3s for a reason, he's just a bully and he needs to be under the hoop.

That's just all my opinion, I can see why people like his game. Another concern with having him on the raptors for me is, I believe he commits a ton of offensive fouls he gets away with because his play style is so aggressive. I would be worried about him being on Canada's team with the whistle we get.

[CPT]

Some bad masai narratives as usual on here. Guy has ATL chasing him and will have half the league looking to hire him if he isn’t retained.

Masai is being opportunistic as he should be with the state of the team, east and league

Exactly. Masai isn't going to panic because of his contract. He can get a new job any time he wants.

He's looking for championships. There is a window of opportunity here IF he can get the right deal. And if he can't land a Giannis or Durant he'll keep moving pieces around and developing our assets until we get that next opportunity.

Not saying any of this isn’t true, and as much as I’ve criticized him recently, I prefer him to the next MLSE replacement.

That said, he could still be feeling some pressure and acting accordingly. He presumably likes it in Toronto and wants to continue living and working here. His contract is coming up, and he doesn’t get along super well with the nepo baby idiot owner.

I don’t think it’s fair to suggest he’s totally mortgaging the future to save his job, but I also don’t think it’s crazy to suggest that his job security could be a factor in some decisions.

[KP730]

Read on Twitter

[CPT]

One thing about Sabonis is I don’t know who he needs next to him to succeed. You would think it would be a mobile stretch big who can protect the rim, but all we ever heard was how he was a terrible fit with Myles Turner.

Maybe his game has evolved enough since that we’ve come full circle and he would be best with a Myles Turner type?

It’s possible my perception of his game and the spaces he occupies on both sides of the court is out of date (or was just never accurate lol).

[Gavin_TDThree]

Read on Twitter

is this guy legit?

[TimeForChange]

Read on Twitter

definitely the first guy i am calling if I am Giannis or the Bucks

[ciueli]

sabonis as our starting C and only playable C would be a nightmare. Dude can't protect the rim at all, we would just be the kings east. The pressure on Scottie to protect the rim would be immense. I think we would be a better team rolling out the current starting lineup.

I think you're overrating Jak a little and underrating Saboins, he isn't that bad a defender, he has just had no help on that Sacramento team the entire time he's been there. With Scottie + some other solid defenders on our roster I think it would be fine, I'd rather have a player who can do what Sabonis does on offence (better passing, shooting, rebounding) along with playing around 35 MPG and mostly full season schedules vs. 30 MPG from Jak who misses significant games each season.

I don't even necessarily love Jak as our starting C. I haven't seen him on a good enough team to make an assessment on if I believe he can anchor a contenders defense. At least he has true C size. I'd rather not get any smaller. If I wanted a sabonis type skillset, I would rather do all we can to get Queen in this draft, and keep all the guys we have.

I've never been a sabonis fan, I don't believe you can have playoff success with him as your main C. He needs to at least be able to play the 4 if the matchups call for it, so a true C that is a capable rim protector is a necessity if I'm building a team with Sabonis on it IMO. Also I don't like him on the perimeter all that much, he doesn't attempt a ton of 3s for a reason, he's just a bully and he needs to be under the hoop.

That's just all my opinion, I can see why people like his game. Another concern with having him on the raptors for me is, I believe he commits a ton of offensive fouls he gets away with because his play style is so aggressive. I would be worried about him being on Canada's team with the whistle we get.

I throw it around the other way and I don't see us having playoff success with a player like Jakob Poeltl since he's a 30 MPG type of guy and we have no credible backup, he can't play in crunch time due to the free throw percentage he shoots, and he provides no spacing at all next to Scottie. His passing is completely overblown, he averaged 2.8 APG this season while Sabonis averaged 6.0 and was over 8 APG in 2024-25. We need something like a stretch C next to Scottie and Sabonis at least shows some signs of being able to do that while also being one of the best rebounders in the game over the past 3 seasons (led league in rebounding 3 straight seasons). If we really are building this team around a pervasive passing concept Sabonis is a guy we should be looking at.

The foul call thing I just don't see, it's not a Canada problem, it's a star player problem. Stars get calls, we don't really have a lot of star players recently who are good at getting calls. Barrett's free throw rate is similar to what it was in NY. Scottie has improved his free throw rate every season of his career. IQ's free throw rate is right around his career average while playing for the Raptors, those are our top 3 scorers and I don't see anything out of the ordinary about how often they get to the line.

[LoveMyRaps]

Read on Twitter

is this guy legit?

Apparently he's broken a lot of stuff so probs.

Giannis was always a pipedream anyways.

Let's go after KD!

[Gavin_TDThree]

One thing about Sabonis is I don’t know who he needs next to him to succeed. You would think it would be a mobile stretch big who can protect the rim, but all we ever heard was how he was a terrible fit with Myles Turner.

Maybe his game has evolved enough since that we’ve come full circle and he would be best with a Myles Turner type?

It’s possible my perception of his game and the spaces he occupies on both sides of the court is out of date (or was just never accurate lol).

He's a very smart player so I think his defence can be masked in a stronger defensive system. Having Barnes next to him I think is a really good fit. Sabonis also is such a good connective player on the offensive end