Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 8

[HumbleRen]

If you replace IQ w/ Garland, do you really think it would move the needle for us? Do you think this team would drastically be any different? Let's not even start w/ Suggs, or any of the Houston players... None of those guys are significant upgrades over IQ.

I like IQ, I do but who do you think he is?

Masai would trade IQ for Garland, Suggs, Amen in a heart beat. Same with RJ.

In fact he would trade RJ and IQ and a future pick in a heart beat for Franz.

No idea with only 7 games played. He could be a 18PPG scorer, he could be a 22+PPG scorer. IQ is a big swing factor in all of this.

I think everyone pretty much knows what we have exactly in RJ, IQ not so much.

And that’s fine but that just doesn’t hold as much weight when you’re 25 years old. There’s not some latent ability that’s been hidden. He’s a solid top 20ish guard in the league.

Garland dragged a team to above .500 before Mitchell got there as a 22 year old as the sole offensive player. That just kinda means more than what IQ has flashed.

[Vampirate]

And the Rockets? they went out and just signed vets? Yeah lets ignore that they drafted Green with the 2nd, then had the 3rd, 4th, and 3rd pick for 3 more years in a row. They didn't magically get better, they had 3 top 3 picks and a 4th OA. They added vets to a solid very young core.

Neither of those are "two timelines". The Raptors had a 26 year old Siakam and FVV and a 23 year old OG. They then got a single high pick in Scottie and haven't had a single high pick before or after that. And in our ONLY high pick players THIRD year did we then make a trade that resulted in us getting 2 players in their 4th and 5th years.

Agree with a lot of what you're saying but let me make a couple of points.

The Rockets core past Sengun and Amen is very mid.

You wouldn't want to depend on Jalen Green, Jabari or Reed Sheppord to be part of your core.

Jalen is basically a weaker version of RJ, Jabari is a mid scorer and Reed seems to be a disappointment.

The Rockets are just benefitting from Sengun taking a defensive leap and Amen has been great overall in year 2.


As for the Siakam timeline, the whole issue with it was we were just too depleted from assets to get the championship team that we just couldn't get a suitable talent next to Siakam to line up the timelines. FVV being the 2nd best player/scorer in that time period was the biggest issue. Siakam himself wasn't the issue, it's just a shame he entered the NBA as an older rookie.


As for the Raptors right now, we have a serious shot to launch ourselves up next year but it highly depends on the draft.

Barnes, IQ, Pick, (Gradey, Jakobe) is a good foundation...depending on the player coming in. However if we don't land a real difference maker in the draft......pain.

Emphasis on the bold here.

It’s not about who you deem is mid or not though. It’s about assets.

Jabari Smith Jr might be “mid” but he’s a 2 way wing. Tari doesn’t have eye popping stats but he’s another defensive wing monster. Jalen Green still has the allure of high potential.

They have enough assets where they can pull a trigger to get a star while keeping their 2 main building blocks. That’s just as important as anything else when it comes to rebuilding a team.

We have Scottie and Gradey and that’s it.

I'm well aware of the mistakes of Christmas Past.

As for the bold, we also have Chomche, Jakobe, and Mogbo. (essentially the last draft). You can argue position in the draft (Gradey vs Jakobe), but moving forwards are you sure you rather have Gradey over Jakobe?

Our biggest issue is we have to play RJ and Poetl big minutes and those players are taking up playing time and shots. You can say IQ here as well, but I view IQ as a swing factor that can go either way. (he could be mid or very good).

I'm being fair here, Masai should have fired NN, and did a fire sale once he drafted Barnes etc, but I still have to factor in last years draft as a part of the equation.

[YogurtProducer]

And the Rockets? they went out and just signed vets? Yeah lets ignore that they drafted Green with the 2nd, then had the 3rd, 4th, and 3rd pick for 3 more years in a row. They didn't magically get better, they had 3 top 3 picks and a 4th OA. They added vets to a solid very young core.

Neither of those are "two timelines". The Raptors had a 26 year old Siakam and FVV and a 23 year old OG. They then got a single high pick in Scottie and haven't had a single high pick before or after that. And in our ONLY high pick players THIRD year did we then make a trade that resulted in us getting 2 players in their 4th and 5th years.

Agree with a lot of what you're saying but let me make a couple of points.

The Rockets core past Sengun and Amen is very mid.

You wouldn't want to depend on Jalen Green, Jabari or Reed Sheppord to be part of your core.

Jalen is basically a weaker version of RJ, Jabari is a mid scorer and Reed seems to be a disappointment.

The Rockets are just benefitting from Sengun taking a defensive leap and Amen has been great overall in year 2.


As for the Siakam timeline, the whole issue with it was we were just too depleted from assets to get the championship team that we just couldn't get a suitable talent next to Siakam to line up the timelines. FVV being the 2nd best player/scorer in that time period was the biggest issue. Siakam himself wasn't the issue, it's just a shame he entered the NBA as an older rookie.


As for the Raptors right now, we have a serious shot to launch ourselves up next year but it highly depends on the draft.

Barnes, IQ, Pick, (Gradey, Jakobe) is a good foundation...depending on the player coming in. However if we don't land a real difference maker in the draft......pain.

Emphasis on the bold here.

It’s not about who you deem is mid or not though. It’s about assets.

Jabari Smith Jr might be “mid” but he’s a 2 way wing. Tari doesn’t have eye popping stats but he’s another defensive wing monster. Jalen Green still has the allure of high potential.

They have enough assets where they can pull a trigger to get a star while keeping their 2 main building blocks. That’s just as important as anything else when it comes to rebuilding a team.

We have Scottie and Gradey and that’s it.

SO let me get this straight.

Jalen Green has the allure of high potential as as former #2 pick, but RJ Barrett as a former #3 pick doesn't? Jalen is currently one year younger than Barrett was when we acquired him. DO you seriously think the league views Green as some stud? ESPECIALLY when Green is set to be paid more than RJ is over the next 2 years.

Tari is an asset as defensive wing monster as a former #17th pick - but for some reason Agbaji or Jakobe are not assets as young guys drafted in the teens in the last 1-3 years?

You guys just constantly undervalue our assets and overvalue everyone elses.

We are about to have Barnes, a top 5-7 pick, Dick, Agabji, Walker, plus probably two more solid 2026 picks, and you guys are complaining because we don't have the same amount of assets in year 1-2 of our rebuild as other teams do in year 4-7 of their rebuilds.

Like, have some patience ffs.

[Scase]

And the Rockets? they went out and just signed vets? Yeah lets ignore that they drafted Green with the 2nd, then had the 3rd, 4th, and 3rd pick for 3 more years in a row. They didn't magically get better, they had 3 top 3 picks and a 4th OA. They added vets to a solid very young core.

Neither of those are "two timelines". The Raptors had a 26 year old Siakam and FVV and a 23 year old OG. They then got a single high pick in Scottie and haven't had a single high pick before or after that. And in our ONLY high pick players THIRD year did we then make a trade that resulted in us getting 2 players in their 4th and 5th years.

Agree with a lot of what you're saying but let me make a couple of points.

The Rockets core past Sengun and Amen is very mid.

You wouldn't want to depend on Jalen Green, Jabari or Reed Sheppord to be part of your core.

Jalen is basically a weaker version of RJ, Jabari is a mid scorer and Reed seems to be a disappointment.

The Rockets are just benefitting from Sengun taking a defensive leap and Amen has been great overall in year 2.


As for the Siakam timeline, the whole issue with it was we were just too depleted from assets to get the championship team that we just couldn't get a suitable talent next to Siakam to line up the timelines. FVV being the 2nd best player/scorer in that time period was the biggest issue. Siakam himself wasn't the issue, it's just a shame he entered the NBA as an older rookie.


As for the Raptors right now, we have a serious shot to launch ourselves up next year but it highly depends on the draft.

Barnes, IQ, Pick, (Gradey, Jakobe) is a good foundation...depending on the player coming in. However if we don't land a real difference maker in the draft......pain.

Emphasis on the bold here.

I would rather have both Green or Smith at 9.5mil and younger, than RJ at over 2x as much, 2-3x as much NBA experience, and inline for a much larger contract in a couple years.

As for Reed, the kid plays 11mpg, who knows what he's gonna end up as. RJ/IQ are 5th and 6th year players, if they didn't look better than those 3, we would be losing our minds. I'm not saying replacing them with Rockets players would be the solution for this team, but having younger, better contract controlled players for a team that has won 8 games is a better situation to be than going into the next year paying our core 90mil for like 30 wins.

Saying the rockets are "just" benefitting from their players getting better is kinda nuts, like yeah, that's the point. What are we benefitting from? Our players stagnating or getting worse? The Rockets are doing better, because they have young players that are taking the next steps, not 5th and 6th year players providing the same impact they did on their previous team. They have players growing and getting better, we don't that's the crux of the argument. Not that because they added FVV/Brooks and they got better lol.

Would you trade their young roster for ours? Ignore the FVV/Brooks stuff. Just straight up, would you rather have BBQ+GD and JKW or Green, Sengun, Thompson, Parker, and Whitmore? Cause I don't think there would be a single GM in the league that would take our young guys over the Rockets'. Hell, Sengun/Thompson alone are a better core than BBQ+GD/JKW.

What you mention about the Siakam timeline is 100% correct. I'm not bothered that we were in the state where we didn't have the assets cause we just won the chip, but rather that they tried to shoehorn a rookie into that and call it a day. We didn't have the assets to do what the Cavs did, we didn't have a bunch of young players like the Rockets, and that's totally fine. The issue is that we acted like we did.

They got to go out and pick up players like Mitchell/FVV/Brooks etc because they already had a foundation. We tried to just throw Scottie into some broken ass foundation and think we could move forward with it, and then when it was showing glaring signs of being below average, we traded a lotto pick to bump up that glaring sign to mediocre.

ATL was making it sound like the Cavs etc did nothing but add vets and tada, they became good. No, they built up a good foundation of young players and high picks, and then they moved onto the next phase of the plan and added some vets. Something we are also seeing in Detroit. He's pretending like we did the same thing and golly gosh gee shucks, it just didn't work out for us, them the breaks.

Nah, we tried to take a massive shortcut and fell flat on our face, so now we are stuck with a core of a couple guys who have already showcased mainly what they will be for their career, and a couple younger guys that everyone wants to overhype and ignore history and reality.

Our team cupboards are still shockingly bare despite going for a second season in a row of wins in the 20s. They are seemingly unwilling to move Jak, so his value is irrelevant.
IQ has a new contract that is unearned and is likely not very valuable right now, and if he continues the same production from last year, the value of his contract only gets better because of the structure of it, not the player.
RJ has shown nothing to indicate his contract is anything of particular value, he's in his 6th year of mediocre and inefficient offensive impact, and an absolute negative on defence. He's not a starter level player on a good team, so his value probably isn't that high.
JKW is way too early to determine value much like Reed, but if I tried to guess the value of a 3rd OA pick only playing 11mpg on the 4th best team in the NBA, vs a 19th pick playing 20mpg on the 3rd worst team in the league, well lets just say no one is lining up with offers for him.

Scottie and Gradey are arguably the only 2 players with positive value on the team, Jak too but as I mentioned, it seems as though we have zero intentions to move him so it's moot.

[Vampirate]

Agree with a lot of what you're saying but let me make a couple of points.

The Rockets core past Sengun and Amen is very mid.

You wouldn't want to depend on Jalen Green, Jabari or Reed Sheppord to be part of your core.

Jalen is basically a weaker version of RJ, Jabari is a mid scorer and Reed seems to be a disappointment.

The Rockets are just benefitting from Sengun taking a defensive leap and Amen has been great overall in year 2.


As for the Siakam timeline, the whole issue with it was we were just too depleted from assets to get the championship team that we just couldn't get a suitable talent next to Siakam to line up the timelines. FVV being the 2nd best player/scorer in that time period was the biggest issue. Siakam himself wasn't the issue, it's just a shame he entered the NBA as an older rookie.


As for the Raptors right now, we have a serious shot to launch ourselves up next year but it highly depends on the draft.

Barnes, IQ, Pick, (Gradey, Jakobe) is a good foundation...depending on the player coming in. However if we don't land a real difference maker in the draft......pain.

Emphasis on the bold here.

It’s not about who you deem is mid or not though. It’s about assets.

Jabari Smith Jr might be “mid” but he’s a 2 way wing. Tari doesn’t have eye popping stats but he’s another defensive wing monster. Jalen Green still has the allure of high potential.

They have enough assets where they can pull a trigger to get a star while keeping their 2 main building blocks. That’s just as important as anything else when it comes to rebuilding a team.

We have Scottie and Gradey and that’s it.

SO let me get this straight.

Jalen Green has the allure of high potential as as former #2 pick, but RJ Barrett as a former #3 pick doesn't? Jalen is currently one year younger than Barrett was when we acquired him. DO you seriously think the league views Green as some stud? ESPECIALLY when Green is set to be paid more than RJ is over the next 2 years.

Tari is an asset as defensive wing monster as a former #17th pick - but for some reason Agbaji or Jakobe are not assets as young guys drafted in the teens in the last 1-3 years?

You guys just constantly undervalue our assets and overvalue everyone elses.

We are about to have Barnes, a top 5-7 pick, Dick, Agabji, Walker, plus probably two more solid 2026 picks, and you guys are complaining because we don't have the same amount of assets in year 1-2 of our rebuild as other teams do in year 4-7 of their rebuilds.

Like, have some patience ffs.

Like Humbleren said, you need to draft at least 2 guys who pan out, we know we have 1, but i'd trade anyone on our team except Barnes to get Amen.

In other words the Rockets have 2 untouchables, the Raptors only have 1. (Gradey isn't untouchable)

Let's talk about Amen, he's basically their Barnes without the strength, worse shot, but awesome burst to the basket. Guy is a defensive beast and has a .616 TS without a jump shot.

As for the bolded, 2 words and i'll repeat. Victor Wembanyama. Not going for Wemby was THE biggest mistake of Masai's career.

Even if we didn't get Wemby there's a solid chance we might draft Amen or Miller. (I doubt we drafted Scoot if we didn't go for Suggs who's obviously better). Nothing guaranteed, but yeah.

[lebron stopper]

I think you guys are missing the point of that tweet. It’s not about catering to Scottie from the moment he got drafted.

It’s more so about Masai wasting everyone’s time with the 2 timeline crap he tried to pull off and got absolutely nothing out of it outside of delaying the obvious timeline which was the rebuild.

Teams like the Thunder, Magic, Rockets, Cavs, Detroit, etc etc stocked up on young talent while we bled away assets.

Warriors are on the other spectrum of what Masai did. They held on to their young guys at the expense of surrounding Curry with win now players and now they have nothing to show for it.

I'm not a fan of the "two timeline" stuff which comes off as too clever by half. What's the last team to pull that off successfully? The early 2010s Spurs? but those Spurs are basically impossible to replicate.

Imagine if Masai pulled the plug on the flawed and failing core (the 4th and 5th best players on the championship team, plus OG, plus Grent) and got whatever he could for them between 2021 or 2022, instead of doubling down on them at every opportunity. The Raptors would not be punting entire seasons right now and praying for top lottery picks just to rebuild their barren asset base, which is the only conceivable way to make this current core remotely viable in the future. Sell off those vets earlier and the Raptors would probably be in a much better position right now - but I guess now we'll just have to wait several painful months until 2026 to see this team compete for anything.

Seems like the same old folks who cheered the hardest for that era of painfully mediocre basketball, with the 4th and 5th best players on the championship team taking turns jacking up bad shots and hunting for stats on their way to late lottery or a first round exit, are also the same ones who are the harshest on Scottie Barnes. I guess they perceive him as the "golden boy" who is responsible for ending that era prematurely and take out all their frustrations on him nowadays.

[Scase]

I think you guys are missing the point of that tweet. It’s not about catering to Scottie from the moment he got drafted.

It’s more so about Masai wasting everyone’s time with the 2 timeline crap he tried to pull off and got absolutely nothing out of it outside of delaying the obvious timeline which was the rebuild.

Teams like the Thunder, Magic, Rockets, Cavs, Detroit, etc etc stocked up on young talent while we bled away assets.

Warriors are on the other spectrum of what Masai did. They held on to their young guys at the expense of surrounding Curry with win now players and now they have nothing to show for it.

I'm not a fan of the "two timeline" stuff which comes off as too clever by half. What's the last team to pull that off successfully? The early 2010s Spurs? but those Spurs are basically impossible to replicate.

Imagine if Masai pulled the plug on the flawed and failing core (the 4th and 5th best players on the championship team, plus OG, plus Grent) and got whatever he could for them between 2021 or 2022, instead of doubling down on them at every opportunity. The Raptors would not be punting entire seasons right now and praying for top lottery picks just to rebuild their barren asset base, which is the only conceivable way to make this current core remotely viable in the future. Sell off those vets earlier and the Raptors would probably be in a much better position right now - but I guess now we'll just have to wait several painful months until 2026 to see this team compete for anything.

Seems like the same old folks who cheered the hardest for that era of painfully mediocre basketball, with the 4th and 5th best players on the championship team taking turns jacking up bad shots and hunting for stats on their way to late lottery or a first round exit, are also the same ones who are the harshest on Scottie Barnes. I guess they perceive him as the "golden boy" who is responsible for ending that era prematurely and take out all their frustrations on him nowadays.

It's the same group that defended those players and constantly argued they are better than they are, constantly defended every obviously bad move Masai made post chip both with and without hindsight, and now defend endlessly the same Siakam/FVV 2.0 we have in RJ and IQ (which is quite frankly an insult to Siakam/FVV), all while clamouring how Scottie needs to be better.

We're seeing Scottie play poorly now, because they are playing him like he's a recently drafted player and trying out new things outside his scope to add to his game (rightfully or wrongfully), except it's being done in year 4 and not in year 1/2 because we were too busy trying to heroically make the play in with Siakam/FVV.

There were so many places that this could have been nipped in the bud, after tampa, after his ROTY campaign, after we knew FVV was going to asking for a fat contract, after we knew we weren't going to max Siakam, BEFORE we traded a lotto pick for Jak, etc.

None of those in a vacuum is catastrophic, but all of them combined have us where we are at now. 8-29, on pace for 18 wins, following a 25 win year without a draft pick to show for it. We'll be rolling into next season with BBQ making 99 million dollars to possibly scrape together 30 wins, in years 5, 6, and 7 of their careers. Who the hell thinks a rebuild with players with that much money and experience makes a lick of sense?

But no, they'll keep defending and hoping, cause god forbid they admit that maybe the wrong decisions were made over and over.

[MiamiSPX]

Seems like the same old folks who cheered the hardest for that era of painfully mediocre basketball, with the 4th and 5th best players on the championship team taking turns jacking up bad shots and hunting for stats on their way to late lottery or a first round exit, are also the same ones who are the harshest on Scottie Barnes. I guess they perceive him as the "golden boy" who is responsible for ending that era prematurely and take out all their frustrations on him nowadays.

In their minds, he gets the blame for ending whatever the hell it is we were doing with Siakam and FVV as our top 2 guys. I've said this very thing in one of the previous iterations of this thread.

[brownbobcat]

Not really rewriting history.

I don't really see Garland, anyone on Houston, Franz/Suggs, etc. being considerably better or more likely to elevate a franchise than IQ is.

The Cavs gabmled their future for Donavan Mitchell (and ended up winning thankfully for them). The Rockets paid $70M to FVV/Brooks. The Magic have 15 years of draft asset accumulation. The Thunder are simply not a replicable model.

It is rewriting history to suggest their success now is becasue of "2 young guys hitting".

Before they even got Mitchell, Garland and Allen were already All Stars, Mobley (perhaps the best of the group) was 2nd in ROY and they were better than .500 and made the play-in - what future did Cleveland gamble exactly?

[HumbleRen]

Agree with a lot of what you're saying but let me make a couple of points.

The Rockets core past Sengun and Amen is very mid.

You wouldn't want to depend on Jalen Green, Jabari or Reed Sheppord to be part of your core.

Jalen is basically a weaker version of RJ, Jabari is a mid scorer and Reed seems to be a disappointment.

The Rockets are just benefitting from Sengun taking a defensive leap and Amen has been great overall in year 2.


As for the Siakam timeline, the whole issue with it was we were just too depleted from assets to get the championship team that we just couldn't get a suitable talent next to Siakam to line up the timelines. FVV being the 2nd best player/scorer in that time period was the biggest issue. Siakam himself wasn't the issue, it's just a shame he entered the NBA as an older rookie.


As for the Raptors right now, we have a serious shot to launch ourselves up next year but it highly depends on the draft.

Barnes, IQ, Pick, (Gradey, Jakobe) is a good foundation...depending on the player coming in. However if we don't land a real difference maker in the draft......pain.

Emphasis on the bold here.

It’s not about who you deem is mid or not though. It’s about assets.

Jabari Smith Jr might be “mid” but he’s a 2 way wing. Tari doesn’t have eye popping stats but he’s another defensive wing monster. Jalen Green still has the allure of high potential.

They have enough assets where they can pull a trigger to get a star while keeping their 2 main building blocks. That’s just as important as anything else when it comes to rebuilding a team.

We have Scottie and Gradey and that’s it.

SO let me get this straight.

Jalen Green has the allure of high potential as as former #2 pick, but RJ Barrett as a former #3 pick doesn't? Jalen is currently one year younger than Barrett was when we acquired him. DO you seriously think the league views Green as some stud? ESPECIALLY when Green is set to be paid more than RJ is over the next 2 years.

Tari is an asset as defensive wing monster as a former #17th pick - but for some reason Agbaji or Jakobe are not assets as young guys drafted in the teens in the last 1-3 years?

You guys just constantly undervalue our assets and overvalue everyone elses.

We are about to have Barnes, a top 5-7 pick, Dick, Agabji, Walker, plus probably two more solid 2026 picks, and you guys are complaining because we don't have the same amount of assets in year 1-2 of our rebuild as other teams do in year 4-7 of their rebuilds.

Like, have some patience ffs.

Don’t be daft. Who gets more on the market right now? Jalen Green or RJ?

[Tripod]

Agree with a lot of what you're saying but let me make a couple of points.

The Rockets core past Sengun and Amen is very mid.

You wouldn't want to depend on Jalen Green, Jabari or Reed Sheppord to be part of your core.

Jalen is basically a weaker version of RJ, Jabari is a mid scorer and Reed seems to be a disappointment.

The Rockets are just benefitting from Sengun taking a defensive leap and Amen has been great overall in year 2.


As for the Siakam timeline, the whole issue with it was we were just too depleted from assets to get the championship team that we just couldn't get a suitable talent next to Siakam to line up the timelines. FVV being the 2nd best player/scorer in that time period was the biggest issue. Siakam himself wasn't the issue, it's just a shame he entered the NBA as an older rookie.


As for the Raptors right now, we have a serious shot to launch ourselves up next year but it highly depends on the draft.

Barnes, IQ, Pick, (Gradey, Jakobe) is a good foundation...depending on the player coming in. However if we don't land a real difference maker in the draft......pain.

Emphasis on the bold here.

It’s not about who you deem is mid or not though. It’s about assets.

Jabari Smith Jr might be “mid” but he’s a 2 way wing. Tari doesn’t have eye popping stats but he’s another defensive wing monster. Jalen Green still has the allure of high potential.

They have enough assets where they can pull a trigger to get a star while keeping their 2 main building blocks. That’s just as important as anything else when it comes to rebuilding a team.

We have Scottie and Gradey and that’s it.

SO let me get this straight.

Jalen Green has the allure of high potential as as former #2 pick, but RJ Barrett as a former #3 pick doesn't? Jalen is currently one year younger than Barrett was when we acquired him. DO you seriously think the league views Green as some stud? ESPECIALLY when Green is set to be paid more than RJ is over the next 2 years.

Tari is an asset as defensive wing monster as a former #17th pick - but for some reason Agbaji or Jakobe are not assets as young guys drafted in the teens in the last 1-3 years?

You guys just constantly undervalue our assets and overvalue everyone elses.

We are about to have Barnes, a top 5-7 pick, Dick, Agabji, Walker, plus probably two more solid 2026 picks, and you guys are complaining because we don't have the same amount of assets in year 1-2 of our rebuild as other teams do in year 4-7 of their rebuilds.

Like, have some patience ffs.

Jalen has the allure of star potential.
About to turn 23 in a month, 20.2PPG

RJ is mid
24 years old, 23.2PPG

Scottie has 0 level offense
23 years old, 20.3PPG

[HumbleRen]

I think you guys are missing the point of that tweet. It’s not about catering to Scottie from the moment he got drafted.

It’s more so about Masai wasting everyone’s time with the 2 timeline crap he tried to pull off and got absolutely nothing out of it outside of delaying the obvious timeline which was the rebuild.

Teams like the Thunder, Magic, Rockets, Cavs, Detroit, etc etc stocked up on young talent while we bled away assets.

Warriors are on the other spectrum of what Masai did. They held on to their young guys at the expense of surrounding Curry with win now players and now they have nothing to show for it.

I'm not a fan of the "two timeline" stuff which comes off as too clever by half. What's the last team to pull that off successfully? The early 2010s Spurs? but those Spurs are basically impossible to replicate.

Imagine if Masai pulled the plug on the flawed and failing core (the 4th and 5th best players on the championship team, plus OG, plus Grent) and got whatever he could for them between 2021 or 2022, instead of doubling down on them at every opportunity. The Raptors would not be punting entire seasons right now and praying for top lottery picks just to rebuild their barren asset base, which is the only conceivable way to make this current core remotely viable in the future. Sell off those vets earlier and the Raptors would probably be in a much better position right now - but I guess now we'll just have to wait several painful months until 2026 to see this team compete for anything.

Seems like the same old folks who cheered the hardest for that era of painfully mediocre basketball, with the 4th and 5th best players on the championship team taking turns jacking up bad shots and hunting for stats on their way to late lottery or a first round exit, are also the same ones who are the harshest on Scottie Barnes. I guess they perceive him as the "golden boy" who is responsible for ending that era prematurely and take out all their frustrations on him nowadays.

Completely on point. The failures of Masai have basically made it that it’s all on Scottie and this upcoming lottery pick.

If it isn’t top 4 at minimum, we’re in for a rough rebuild.

[HumbleRen]

It’s not about who you deem is mid or not though. It’s about assets.

Jabari Smith Jr might be “mid” but he’s a 2 way wing. Tari doesn’t have eye popping stats but he’s another defensive wing monster. Jalen Green still has the allure of high potential.

They have enough assets where they can pull a trigger to get a star while keeping their 2 main building blocks. That’s just as important as anything else when it comes to rebuilding a team.

We have Scottie and Gradey and that’s it.

SO let me get this straight.

Jalen Green has the allure of high potential as as former #2 pick, but RJ Barrett as a former #3 pick doesn't? Jalen is currently one year younger than Barrett was when we acquired him. DO you seriously think the league views Green as some stud? ESPECIALLY when Green is set to be paid more than RJ is over the next 2 years.

Tari is an asset as defensive wing monster as a former #17th pick - but for some reason Agbaji or Jakobe are not assets as young guys drafted in the teens in the last 1-3 years?

You guys just constantly undervalue our assets and overvalue everyone elses.

We are about to have Barnes, a top 5-7 pick, Dick, Agabji, Walker, plus probably two more solid 2026 picks, and you guys are complaining because we don't have the same amount of assets in year 1-2 of our rebuild as other teams do in year 4-7 of their rebuilds.

Like, have some patience ffs.

Jalen has the allure of star potential.
About to turn 23 in a month, 20.2PPG

RJ is mid
24 years old, 23.2PPG

Scottie has 0 level offense
23 years old, 20.3PPG

That’s how it works. Perception is key.

RJ got dumped off as salary filler, his perception hasn’t changed around the league. WE think he’s been good for what his contract is but that doesn’t mean **** on a bottom 5 team.

He will never be the central piece in a trade package for a star player.

Green who is currently the leading scorer on a 2nd seeded team even with his issues and Scottie who is one of the better 2 way wings in the league have significantly higher value than someone like RJ who is in year 6 that has the tag of being an empty calories player for 90% of his career.

It should be pretty obvious as to why they would have more value around the league. The fact that some of you don’t realize that is very alarming.

[brownbobcat]

SO let me get this straight.

Jalen Green has the allure of high potential as as former #2 pick, but RJ Barrett as a former #3 pick doesn't? Jalen is currently one year younger than Barrett was when we acquired him. DO you seriously think the league views Green as some stud? ESPECIALLY when Green is set to be paid more than RJ is over the next 2 years.

Tari is an asset as defensive wing monster as a former #17th pick - but for some reason Agbaji or Jakobe are not assets as young guys drafted in the teens in the last 1-3 years?

You guys just constantly undervalue our assets and overvalue everyone elses.

We are about to have Barnes, a top 5-7 pick, Dick, Agabji, Walker, plus probably two more solid 2026 picks, and you guys are complaining because we don't have the same amount of assets in year 1-2 of our rebuild as other teams do in year 4-7 of their rebuilds.

Like, have some patience ffs.

It's possible to both have patience and also think this core has some serious issues. I'm all in favour of RJ & Scottie taking all the shots they want to let them develop, I'm just not turning a blind-eye to their flaws.

The bottom-feeder Rockets were during the rookie & sophomore seasons of Green/Sengun. Scottie's in year 4, RJ in year 6.
If Toronto's young guys are every bit as good as Houston's, why are the results so bad? Tari Eason is a defensive monster because he's a defensive monster, it doesn't matter where he got picked and FVV/Dillon Brooks aren't superstars that can add 20 wins to a team.

[Tripod]

SO let me get this straight.

Jalen Green has the allure of high potential as as former #2 pick, but RJ Barrett as a former #3 pick doesn't? Jalen is currently one year younger than Barrett was when we acquired him. DO you seriously think the league views Green as some stud? ESPECIALLY when Green is set to be paid more than RJ is over the next 2 years.

Tari is an asset as defensive wing monster as a former #17th pick - but for some reason Agbaji or Jakobe are not assets as young guys drafted in the teens in the last 1-3 years?

You guys just constantly undervalue our assets and overvalue everyone elses.

We are about to have Barnes, a top 5-7 pick, Dick, Agabji, Walker, plus probably two more solid 2026 picks, and you guys are complaining because we don't have the same amount of assets in year 1-2 of our rebuild as other teams do in year 4-7 of their rebuilds.

Like, have some patience ffs.

Jalen has the allure of star potential.
About to turn 23 in a month, 20.2PPG

RJ is mid
24 years old, 23.2PPG

Scottie has 0 level offense
23 years old, 20.3PPG

That’s how it works. Perception is key.

RJ got dumped off as salary filler, his perception hasn’t changed around the league. WE think he’s been good for what his contract is but that doesn’t mean **** on a bottom 5 team.

He will never be the central piece in a trade package for a star player.

Green who is currently the leading scorer on a 2nd seeded team even with his issues and Scottie who is one of the better 2 way wings in the league have significantly higher value than someone like RJ who is in year 6 that has the tag of being an empty calories player for 90% of his career.

It should be pretty obvious as to why they would have more value around the league. The fact that some of you don’t realize that is very alarming.

So Green and his inefficient scoring and shooting and crap defense doesn't matter compared to RJ because the team around him is better.

Ok

[Raps in 4]

Jalen Green is two years younger, but he's on the exact same career trajectory as RJ.

[Vampirate]

I would rather have both Green or Smith at 9.5mil and younger, than RJ at over 2x as much, 2-3x as much NBA experience, and inline for a much larger contract in a couple years.

What about Jalen Green+Gabari for 55+ Million vs a (possible) expiring/tradable RJ at 29 million.

(the real option here is none of them, they are all bench players imo)

As for Reed, the kid plays 11mpg, who knows what he's gonna end up as.

Same could be said for Jakobe, Chomche and Mogbo (I view Jakobe the highest of the 4)

RJ/IQ are 5th and 6th year players, if they didn't look better than those 3, we would be losing our minds.

Just reminding you Jalen is about to be paid 30 mill per year starting next year, most Rocket fans don't want him, they are just stuck with him. They want to trade Jalen like we want to trade RJ.

I'm not saying replacing them with Rockets players would be the solution for this team, but having younger, better contract controlled players for a team that has won 8 games is a better situation to be than going into the next year paying our core 90mil for like 30 wins.

Agreed, we need to trade quite a bit of redundancy...on the other hand, thank god we have only 8 wins and not 12 or 18 like the Trailblazers or Bulls. You know I don't want to keep RJ past his current contract, I just think you are looking at things as a grass is always greener approach sometimes.

Saying the rockets are "just" benefitting from their players getting better is kinda nuts, like yeah, that's the point. What are we benefitting from? Our players stagnating or getting worse? The Rockets are doing better, because they have young players that are taking the next steps, not 5th and 6th year players providing the same impact they did on their previous team. They have players growing and getting better, we don't that's the crux of the argument. Not that because they added FVV/Brooks and they got better lol.

Jalen Green and Jabari are 'not' getting better, they have stagnated lol. I straight up don't want them.

Amen on the other hand, and i've said before, except for Barnes i'd trade literally anyone else to get him.

Would you trade their young roster for ours? Ignore the FVV/Brooks stuff. Just straight up, would you rather have BBQ+GD and JKW or Green, Sengun, Thompson, Parker, and Whitmore? Cause I don't think there would be a single GM in the league that would take our young guys over the Rockets'. Hell, Sengun/Thompson alone are a better core than BBQ+GD/JKW.

Just to get Amen alone on our team, yes. Sengun=Barnes to me. Most other players on the rockets I don't view that highly.

Here's another way to put it, in terms of prospects (imo of course)

Barnes>Sengun>Amen (these 3 are really interchangeable)>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jakobe>Jabari>Gradey>Tari>Mogbo>Green>Chomche>Cam>Reed>Shead

What you mention about the Siakam timeline is 100% correct. I'm not bothered that we were in the state where we didn't have the assets cause we just won the chip, but rather that they tried to shoehorn a rookie into that and call it a day. We didn't have the assets to do what the Cavs did, we didn't have a bunch of young players like the Rockets, and that's totally fine. The issue is that we acted like we did.

No arguments here, i'll repeat, we should have fired NN and did a fire sale once we drafted Barnes.

They got to go out and pick up players like Mitchell/FVV/Brooks etc because they already had a foundation. We tried to just throw Scottie into some broken ass foundation and think we could move forward with it, and then when it was showing glaring signs of being below average, we traded a lotto pick to bump up that glaring sign to mediocre.

Again, repeat above.

ATL was making it sound like the Cavs etc did nothing but add vets and tada, they became good. No, they built up a good foundation of young players and high picks, and then they moved onto the next phase of the plan and added some vets. Something we are also seeing in Detroit. He's pretending like we did the same thing and golly gosh gee shucks, it just didn't work out for us, them the breaks.

The Cavs seriously hit on the Garland and Mobley pick, we seriously hit on the Barnes pick. My entire point in all of this in which you seem to miss, because you're glorifying Houston's picks (all of them), is that Teams like the Rockets, Magic, Cavs are where they are is because they hit on 2 game changers in the draft.

Unlike what Yogurt is preaching though is that it's completely justifiable to criticize Masai for not going after the 2nd game changer in the draft. Our Cabinet isn't bare because of the last draft, but we're lacking in blue chip prospects. As said, I think Jakobe is better than most of Houston's prospects except for Amen and Sengun. That being said, he's not a blue chip one (still high on him though).

Nah, we tried to take a massive shortcut and fell flat on our face, so now we are stuck with a core of a couple guys who have already showcased mainly what they will be for their career, and a couple younger guys that everyone wants to overhype and ignore history and reality.

The Yak trade is indefensible. That singular trade is the sole reason why we are where we are.

Our team cupboards are still shockingly bare despite going for a second season in a row of wins in the 20s.

Again, bare no, lacking in blue chips, absolutely.

They are seemingly unwilling to move Jak, so his value is irrelevant.

At the moment, i'd say this comment is fair, though I do wonder what yak's value is.

IQ has a new contract that is unearned and is likely not very valuable right now, and if he continues the same production from last year, the value of his contract only gets better because of the structure of it, not the player.

Repeating again, IQ has played 7 games, not saying he's going to be worth his contract but a glass half empty view here. (also keep in mind everyone loved the trade at that point, we'd have to pay IQ regardless or lose him in FA)

RJ has shown nothing to indicate his contract is anything of particular value, he's in his 6th year of mediocre and inefficient offensive impact, and an absolute negative on defence. He's not a starter level player on a good team, so his value probably isn't that high.

RJ needs to be on a team with a ton of defense and that needs scoring (ironically the Rockets are such a team)

JKW is way too early to determine value much like Reed, but if I tried to guess the value of a 3rd OA pick only playing 11mpg on the 4th best team in the NBA, vs a 19th pick playing 20mpg on the 3rd worst team in the league, well lets just say no one is lining up with offers for him.

True but I just view Jakobe much higher.

Scottie and Gradey are arguably the only 2 players with positive value on the team, Jak too but as I mentioned, it seems as though we have zero intentions to move him so it's moot.

I don't think Yak has that much value tbh. Ultimately we need to move off him and RJ (the 2 picks in the draft is going to create an issue with minutes).

Our future pretty much hinges of the upcoming draft, things could either look very bright next year or very bleak.

[HumbleRen]

Jalen has the allure of star potential.
About to turn 23 in a month, 20.2PPG

RJ is mid
24 years old, 23.2PPG

Scottie has 0 level offense
23 years old, 20.3PPG

That’s how it works. Perception is key.

RJ got dumped off as salary filler, his perception hasn’t changed around the league. WE think he’s been good for what his contract is but that doesn’t mean **** on a bottom 5 team.

He will never be the central piece in a trade package for a star player.

Green who is currently the leading scorer on a 2nd seeded team even with his issues and Scottie who is one of the better 2 way wings in the league have significantly higher value than someone like RJ who is in year 6 that has the tag of being an empty calories player for 90% of his career.

It should be pretty obvious as to why they would have more value around the league. The fact that some of you don’t realize that is very alarming.

So Green and his inefficient scoring and shooting and crap defense doesn't matter compared to RJ because the team around him is better.

Ok

You’re not reading. PERCEPTION is key in this league.

RJ’s name is in the mud whether we like it or not. Green just inherently has more value than him despite how you feel about him.

[Vampirate]

I like IQ, I do but who do you think he is?

Masai would trade IQ for Garland, Suggs, Amen in a heart beat. Same with RJ.

In fact he would trade RJ and IQ and a future pick in a heart beat for Franz.

No idea with only 7 games played. He could be a 18PPG scorer, he could be a 22+PPG scorer. IQ is a big swing factor in all of this.

I think everyone pretty much knows what we have exactly in RJ, IQ not so much.

And that’s fine but that just doesn’t hold as much weight when you’re 25 years old. There’s not some latent ability that’s been hidden. He’s a solid top 20ish guard in the league.

Garland dragged a team to above .500 before Mitchell got there as a 22 year old as the sole offensive player. That just kinda means more than what IQ has flashed.

It's fair to say that I view IQ much higher than RJ, but not as high as Garland.

But i'm straight up telling you I think you're underrating him. Both garland and IQ have very similar TS in their career.

This year Galrland has played phenomenal, IQ has started slow and been injured for half the year. (IQ's current TS this year is .514, his career TS is .564, on the Knicks his TS was closing in on a .60 TS before the trade)

It all depends on which IQ we're talking about here, the .598 TS IQ before the trade, the .564 TS last year or the .514 TS IQ which is where he's currently at.

IQ is currently shooting 38/32/92, he's a career 37% shooter and was averaging 39.5% from 3 last year (even with us)

The comment about him being overpaid is fair, but I think he's being underrated. (and RJ being overrated).

Also should be said, the Cavs didn't start winning until they got Mobley who really really helped their defense.

[YogurtProducer]

That’s how it works. Perception is key.

RJ got dumped off as salary filler, his perception hasn’t changed around the league. WE think he’s been good for what his contract is but that doesn’t mean **** on a bottom 5 team.

He will never be the central piece in a trade package for a star player.

Green who is currently the leading scorer on a 2nd seeded team even with his issues and Scottie who is one of the better 2 way wings in the league have significantly higher value than someone like RJ who is in year 6 that has the tag of being an empty calories player for 90% of his career.

It should be pretty obvious as to why they would have more value around the league. The fact that some of you don’t realize that is very alarming.

So Green and his inefficient scoring and shooting and crap defense doesn't matter compared to RJ because the team around him is better.

Ok

You’re not reading. PERCEPTION is key in this league.

RJ’s name is in the mud whether we like it or not. Green just inherently has more value than him despite how you feel about him.

lol GMA don’t make moves on perception. Fans on RealGM might, but people paid to do this don’t