Tank World Order (2.0)

[Yeezus_]

VanVleet / Flynn
Trent Jr. / Bembry
Anunoby / Watson
Siakam
Boucher

Plus one 1st and two 2nds.

At best we add someone like Kelly Olynyk in the offseason.

tWo is going to be in full force again next year because this looks like a lotto team.

Huh? So the team isn’t going to sign any FAs when we’re expected to have close to 30M in cap space? Lmao

[Yeezus_]

For anyone in here that is criticizing the Raptors direction, it means you guys don’t think Masai/Bobby (arguably the best front office in the league), aren't good enough at their jobs to build a championship team. Carry on though.

[Psubs]

VanVleet / Flynn
Trent Jr. / Bembry
Anunoby / Watson
Siakam
Boucher

Plus one 1st and two 2nds.

At best we add someone like Kelly Olynyk in the offseason.

tWo is going to be in full force again next year because this looks like a lotto team.

Huh? So the team isn’t going to sign any FAs when we’re expected to have close to 30M in cap space? Lmao

He suggested adding Kelly Olynyk, who would get between the MLE to $15 million. I would be cool with Olynyk, Birch and Gillespie manning the middle next season.

BK is a massive tax team and would likely dump Jordan, if they trade a future 1st pick and cash I'd be willing to trade them the worst 2nd pick. I think maybe Steven Adams and 1st pick for a 2nd pick would also work as they have to pay Lonzo and Hart.

Utah dumping Favors and #30? They have Azubuike and probably want to re-sign Conley.

[ciueli]

GTJ responsible for two of our three wins this month. Vs our tanking rivals too smh (cavs and wizards).

Lowry coming back will be the real reason the tank gets completely sabotaged, but getting a little injury luck here with Lowry/Fred/Siakam just shows how shortsighted the Norm trade for a serviceable role player really was, instead of getting garbage you waive and a future draft pick.

Potentially missing out on a star lottery pick is the type of devastating mistake that has a ripple effect for many years.

The only real variable remains injuries and Covid for the rest of this year, or Masai forcing a tank on Nurse, which doesn't seem in the cards.

I have made similar points. Too late now. Let the fans of "Team Treadmill" enjoy their 10th place finish, and the first round sweep. I was hoping to trade Powell and Lowry in January for draft picks, and guys you could waive immediately. My goal was for the Raptors to be in the bottom 3 right now by this date, alongside Houston, Minnesota, and Detroit.

This team had the chance to get that top 3 talent in a solid draft, but chose to go in another direction. Let the chips fall where they may now. Years from now, fans of Team Treadmill should remember their playoff birth from 2021, while seeing guys like Cade and Suggs in all-star games. I have beaten a dead horse, so time to focus on the 10th to 16 range of the draft. Guys like Davion Mitchell. Maybe you can trade up also, using FVV to do so.

First off, MLSE is a business, and there was no way they were going to trade Kyle + Norm heading into this season when it was fully expected the team would be good enough to make the playoffs. They care about winning and ratings, and coming off a title only 2 seasons ago and a second round appearance (nearly a Conference Finals appearance if Nick Nurse benches Gasol in game 7) it's just not something they're going to do. You may be fine with this team being terrible for the next 3 years to gamble for high picks, but try to explain that to the fan who just started watching in the wake of the 2019 championship.

Second, the East is ridiculously weak this year, attempting a full on tank job in a season where other teams can be reduced to G League rosters if COVID hits them the wrong way is just asking to be disappointed.

Third, the recently changed lottery odds are a strong disincentive to tank now, even if the Raptors had, say, the 4th worst record in the league there's still a significant chance of picking outside the top 5 (about 45%). It never made sense to throw away the season for such long shot odds, even the team with the worst record in the league has a 60% chance of picking outside the top 3. Being horrible no longer confers great odds of a high pick.

[Raps in 4]

Lowry coming back will be the real reason the tank gets completely sabotaged, but getting a little injury luck here with Lowry/Fred/Siakam just shows how shortsighted the Norm trade for a serviceable role player really was, instead of getting garbage you waive and a future draft pick.

Potentially missing out on a star lottery pick is the type of devastating mistake that has a ripple effect for many years.

The only real variable remains injuries and Covid for the rest of this year, or Masai forcing a tank on Nurse, which doesn't seem in the cards.

I have made similar points. Too late now. Let the fans of "Team Treadmill" enjoy their 10th place finish, and the first round sweep. I was hoping to trade Powell and Lowry in January for draft picks, and guys you could waive immediately. My goal was for the Raptors to be in the bottom 3 right now by this date, alongside Houston, Minnesota, and Detroit.

This team had the chance to get that top 3 talent in a solid draft, but chose to go in another direction. Let the chips fall where they may now. Years from now, fans of Team Treadmill should remember their playoff birth from 2021, while seeing guys like Cade and Suggs in all-star games. I have beaten a dead horse, so time to focus on the 10th to 16 range of the draft. Guys like Davion Mitchell. Maybe you can trade up also, using FVV to do so.

First off, MLSE is a business, and there was no way they were going to trade Kyle + Norm heading into this season when it was fully expected the team would be good enough to make the playoffs. They care about winning and ratings, and coming off a title only 2 seasons ago and a second round appearance (nearly a Conference Finals appearance if Nick Nurse benches Gasol in game 7) it's just not something they're going to do. You may be fine with this team being terrible for the next 3 years to gamble for high picks, but try to explain that to the fan who just started watching in the wake of the 2019 championship.

Second, the East is ridiculously weak this year, attempting a full on tank job in a season where other teams can be reduced to G League rosters if COVID hits them the wrong way is just asking to be disappointed.

Third, the recently changed lottery odds are a strong disincentive to tank now, even if the Raptors had, say, the 4th worst record in the league there's still a significant chance of picking outside the top 5 (about 45%). It never made sense to throw away the season for such long shot odds, even the team with the worst record in the league has a 60% chance of picking outside the top 3. Being horrible no longer confers great odds of a high pick.

The new odds are precisely why we need to tank. We need to avoid the play-in at all costs. As long as we're in the lottery, we have a shot at the top-4.

[JShuttlesworth]

VanVleet / Flynn
Trent Jr. / Bembry
Anunoby / Watson
Siakam
Boucher

Plus one 1st and two 2nds.

At best we add someone like Kelly Olynyk in the offseason.

tWo is going to be in full force again next year because this looks like a lotto team.

Huh? So the team isn’t going to sign any FAs when we’re expected to have close to 30M in cap space? Lmao

Correct.

We'll overpay for a MLE type of player who barely moves the needle, like KO, as I said in my post.

[ItsDanger]

Lowry coming back will be the real reason the tank gets completely sabotaged, but getting a little injury luck here with Lowry/Fred/Siakam just shows how shortsighted the Norm trade for a serviceable role player really was, instead of getting garbage you waive and a future draft pick.

Potentially missing out on a star lottery pick is the type of devastating mistake that has a ripple effect for many years.

The only real variable remains injuries and Covid for the rest of this year, or Masai forcing a tank on Nurse, which doesn't seem in the cards.

I have made similar points. Too late now. Let the fans of "Team Treadmill" enjoy their 10th place finish, and the first round sweep. I was hoping to trade Powell and Lowry in January for draft picks, and guys you could waive immediately. My goal was for the Raptors to be in the bottom 3 right now by this date, alongside Houston, Minnesota, and Detroit.

This team had the chance to get that top 3 talent in a solid draft, but chose to go in another direction. Let the chips fall where they may now. Years from now, fans of Team Treadmill should remember their playoff birth from 2021, while seeing guys like Cade and Suggs in all-star games. I have beaten a dead horse, so time to focus on the 10th to 16 range of the draft. Guys like Davion Mitchell. Maybe you can trade up also, using FVV to do so.

First off, MLSE is a business, and there was no way they were going to trade Kyle + Norm heading into this season when it was fully expected the team would be good enough to make the playoffs. They care about winning and ratings, and coming off a title only 2 seasons ago and a second round appearance (nearly a Conference Finals appearance if Nick Nurse benches Gasol in game 7) it's just not something they're going to do. You may be fine with this team being terrible for the next 3 years to gamble for high picks, but try to explain that to the fan who just started watching in the wake of the 2019 championship.

Second, the East is ridiculously weak this year, attempting a full on tank job in a season where other teams can be reduced to G League rosters if COVID hits them the wrong way is just asking to be disappointed.

Third, the recently changed lottery odds are a strong disincentive to tank now, even if the Raptors had, say, the 4th worst record in the league there's still a significant chance of picking outside the top 5 (about 45%). It never made sense to throw away the season for such long shot odds, even the team with the worst record in the league has a 60% chance of picking outside the top 3. Being horrible no longer confers great odds of a high pick.

MLSE is a business and right now there is little time left for TV ad revenue ratings. Smart move would be to improve roster for 21/22 (which may have actual ticket revenue) which would mean dumping Lowry. Of note, he has played little since deadline. Their vision is long term not a handful of weeks.

[ciueli]

MLSE is a business and right now there is little time left for TV ad revenue ratings. Smart move would be to improve roster for 21/22 (which may have actual ticket revenue) which would mean dumping Lowry. Of note, he has played little since deadline. Their vision is long term not a handful of weeks.

They were never going to move him at the start of the season, that's what the post I replied to suggested should have been done. There is no point suggesting the front office should have done something the ownership would not have been on board with. And Kyle is the greatest Raptor of all time, suggesting he should have been traded prematurely is just ridiculous.

At the trade deadline, when it was obvious the season was lost and Kyle actually wanted out they tried very hard to move him based on everything we know. It seems like no teams were offering first round picks for him, or if they were it would have involved taking on long term money which was never going to be an option because it would mean committing to a multi-year stretch of mediocrity while eating a bad contract. Miami was unwilling to give up one of their young guys and instead went with Victor Oladipo for their stretch run, after that there were no more options.

But happily for the tankers Kyle hasn't played a game since the deadline, so it should be like we traded him, right? Well guess what the East stinks so bad that even sitting BOTH our good point guards and Pascal still gets us wins. What else can you possibly ask of them?

[OAKLEY_2]

Nice for the Cavalry to arrive. This poster makes his points fair enough but acting like they know that their course of action, let's call it tank-much or tank 101, oh wait, they will never do more than offer an online opinion so as to make their line of reasoning wholly laughable when put in context. Another speech of good is the enemy of great becomes also not just predictable but worse, tiresome. Maybe it is trolling with paragraphs as weapon of choice. Maybe it is just somone thinking they've cornered the market on notions of perfection.

I'm also curious what the misstep was - they sat Pascal, even got lucky with some suspensions on top of covid protocol and injuries etc.

Unless ppl think that players themselves should be 'tanking' on the court or Nurse should be throwing games, the week set up perfectly for losing, just other bad teams were even more terrible.

Yes, tanking is a management decision, telling the coach/medical staff when to rest players. It's certainly not a decision made by players who are showing out for their next contract. Yuta's gonna Yuta regardless.

Winning games we want to lose (and I have been recently converted to the hardcore tanker side) would be discouraging if our established pieces were playing heavy minutes. But when our youth showing up and are winning us games, I'm can't help but be happy. Gary may be something special. Portland fans were saying after the trade that he had all-star potential. Flynn's a baller, Yuta's a baller, Bembry's a baller, and who knows, maybe Freddie2 is a baller. The whole point of getting a high lottery pick is to find a real baller. But there's always a risk the guy ends up being a Thabeet or Jarobi Parker or Alex Len or Bender or ... countless other examples. Better a bird in the hand than TwO in the bush.

If Watanabe really learns to shoot in the next four weeks, and Flynn emerges as a starting calibre PG - who really is the guy who outplayed LaMelo in the first pre-season game - then that's tremendous. Hard to be down about that.

Thabeet or Jarobi Parker or Alex Len or Bender

I most certainly will not be suggesting a big for our lotto pick. Maybe Mobley drops (LOL) but otherwise check out who the busts always are.

[Yeezus_]

VanVleet / Flynn
Trent Jr. / Bembry
Anunoby / Watson
Siakam
Boucher

Plus one 1st and two 2nds.

At best we add someone like Kelly Olynyk in the offseason.

tWo is going to be in full force again next year because this looks like a lotto team.

Huh? So the team isn’t going to sign any FAs when we’re expected to have close to 30M in cap space? Lmao

Correct.

We'll overpay for a MLE type of player who barely moves the needle, like KO, as I said in my post.

Highly doubt we plan to sign Kelly Olynyk but sure lol

[JShuttlesworth]

Huh? So the team isn’t going to sign any FAs when we’re expected to have close to 30M in cap space? Lmao

Correct.

We'll overpay for a MLE type of player who barely moves the needle, like KO, as I said in my post.

Highly doubt we plan to sign Kelly Olynyk but sure lol

"We'll overpay for a MLE type of player who barely moves the needle"

Doesn't have to be Kelly, I said a player like Kelly. Free agents don't want to come to Toronto.

Who has Masai signed? Cojo? Carroll? Sullinger? Baynes?

"lol"

[Yeezus_]

Correct.

We'll overpay for a MLE type of player who barely moves the needle, like KO, as I said in my post.

Highly doubt we plan to sign Kelly Olynyk but sure lol

"We'll overpay for a MLE type of player who barely moves the needle"

Doesn't have to be Kelly, I said a player like Kelly. Free agents don't want to come to Toronto.

Who has Masai signed? Cojo? Carroll? Sullinger? Baynes?

"lol"

Even if that’s the case, we’d have room to sign another FA. Kelly Olynyk is not getting $15M a season by any team. Clearly wasn’t good enough to start on the Heat before the trade to the Rockets. He’s a bench player.

You act like we had cap space all those years. We had cap space in one season. The rest we only had the MLE.

You also don’t know what happens with Lowry. We could end up solidifying the bench with a s&t and get a first round pick too.

This isn’t even the point. You don’t even know what the plan is for next season and we haven’t tanked since Masai came on board. You think tanking is going to be the direction the team takes heading into a new season? Yeah i dont think so lol

[PhilBlackson]

VanVleet / Flynn
Trent Jr. / Bembry
Anunoby / Watson
Siakam
Boucher

Plus one 1st and two 2nds.

At best we add someone like Kelly Olynyk in the offseason.

tWo is going to be in full force again next year because this looks like a lotto team.

Huh? So the team isn’t going to sign any FAs when we’re expected to have close to 30M in cap space? Lmao

Just in quick response to $30M in cap space, you are flat out kidding yourself if you don't think GT Jr isn't going to eat up the lion's share of that (willing to bet right now he's not re-signed for anything less than $18M/yr but I'm actually confident it will be over $20M) and that will likely leave us with $10M to address the gaping hole at C and we will have to still fill out other roster spots, they don't just evaporate into thin air...

BUT I will say considering they will of course use some money to improve the C position that will be only a part of why it's NOT likely that we're a lottery team next year (hence why so many of us want to full tank this year because odds are we're not back in this position for awhile).

It's just highly unlikely to be the case next year for multiple reasons

1. As mentioned we will spend towards addressing the C position which is a massive reason why we lose games now because we're getting killed with 2nd chance points due to lack of rebounding where defensively we're giving the opposing teams another shot at a basket multiple times in a game and on the flipside limiting ours.

2. Let's be honest, this team's starters have been in and out of the lineup pretty much the entire season for various different things and on several occasions, it was multiple guys out. With vaccinations increasing and just the likely odds of guys overall being healthier next season just on that alone we're going to win more games. If they were healthy all year, good damn chance we're right where teams like the Pacers are and we're either right in the Playoffs or at least at the play in level and again that's not even factoring the C we will inevitably add

3. We also should be adding a lottery pick this year and I'm sure at least one better role player from our two 2nd rounders (could be both). I know rookies don't come in Year 1 (unless they're LeBron or Luka) and suddenly catapult you up the standings but when hypothetically we swap out a "Stanley Johnson" in the rotation for say a Kuminga (if top 5), Johnson (if not) type of player or Bembry for a Suggs (if top 5), Bouknight (if not) type of player again we take another notch up and who knows how we do with our 2nd rounders which obviously this team has been excellent at and again we start improving that bench depth, to weed out the Baynes, McCaws, SJs of this roster and maybe we're adding say one of or a couple of Bassey, Petrusev, Todd, Nix etc. Not to mention Flynn gets more comfortable in his role and Harris probably starts getting some burn etc....and what if we do execute a S&T for Lowry, if he's going to get anywhere near the money he wants while still contending, he's going to have to work with us which again will be some form of assets coming back our way to help depth.

The bottomline is a healthy version of this team in all honesty would be a borderline Playoff team (not something to brag about) but adding a C, a top rookie plus some better depth -- logically we go from borderline to just an actual Playoff team. The only thing that's going to make a difference moving forward is how far up the draft we go this year and how well we ended up drafting. I won't go into the breakdown of it but the likely path we're about to follow is something like what the Heat did coming out of the Big 3 years with picks ranging in the 12th - 18th range. Just have to pray we either drop far enough in the standings before season end or fluke into the top 5, so we can draft an actual star to start and start rebuilding things up that way but we're not staying at a standstill, it is only likely up from the next season forward.

Gotta take advantage of this stealth Tampa Bay Tank while we still can...

[planetmars]

VanVleet / Flynn
Trent Jr. / Bembry
Anunoby / Watson
Siakam
Boucher

Plus one 1st and two 2nds.

At best we add someone like Kelly Olynyk in the offseason.

tWo is going to be in full force again next year because this looks like a lotto team.

Huh? So the team isn’t going to sign any FAs when we’re expected to have close to 30M in cap space? Lmao

Just in quick response to $30M in cap space, you are flat out kidding yourself if you don't think GT Jr isn't going to eat up the lion's share of that (willing to bet right now he's not re-signed for anything less than $18M/yr but I'm actually confident it will be over $20M) and that will likely leave us with $10M to address the gaping hole at C and we will have to still fill out other roster spots, they don't just evaporate into thin air...

BUT I will say considering they will of course use some money to improve the C position that will be only a part of why it's NOT likely that we're a lottery team next year (hence why so many of us want to full tank this year because odds are we're not back in this position for awhile).

It's just highly unlikely to be the case next year for multiple reasons

1. As mentioned we will spend towards addressing the C position which is a massive reason why we lose games now because we're getting killed with 2nd chance points due to lack of rebounding where defensively we're giving the opposing teams another shot at a basket multiple times in a game and on the flipside limiting ours.

2. Let's be honest, this team's starters have been in and out of the lineup pretty much the entire season for various different things and on several occasions, it was multiple guys out. With vaccinations increasing and just the likely odds of guys overall being healthier next season just on that alone we're going to win more games. If they were healthy all year, good damn chance we're right where teams like the Pacers are and we're either right in the Playoffs or at least at the play in level and again that's not even factoring the C we will inevitably add

3. We also should be adding a lottery pick this year and I'm sure at least one better role player from our two 2nd rounders (could be both). I know rookies don't come in Year 1 (unless they're LeBron or Luka) and suddenly catapult you up the standings but when hypothetically we swap out a "Stanley Johnson" in the rotation for say a Kuminga (if top 5), Johnson (if not) type of player or Bembry for a Suggs (if top 5), Bouknight (if not) type of player again we take another notch up and who knows how we do with our 2nd rounders which obviously this team has been excellent at and again we start improving that bench depth, to weed out the Baynes, McCaws, SJs of this roster and maybe we're adding say one of or a couple of Bassey, Petrusev, Todd, Nix etc. Not to mention Flynn gets more comfortable in his role and Harris probably starts getting some burn etc....and what if we do execute a S&T for Lowry, if he's going to get anywhere near the money he wants while still contending, he's going to have to work with us which again will be some form of assets coming back our way to help depth.

The bottomline is a healthy version of this team in all honesty would be a borderline Playoff team (not something to brag about) but adding a C, a top rookie plus some better depth -- logically we go from borderline to just an actual Playoff team. The only thing that's going to make a difference moving forward is how far up the draft we go this year and how well we ended up drafting. I won't go into the breakdown of it but the likely path we're about to follow is something like what the Heat did coming out of the Big 3 years with picks ranging in the 12th - 18th range. Just have to pray we either drop far enough in the standings before season end or fluke into the top 5, so we can draft an actual star to start and start rebuilding things up that way but we're not staying at a standstill, it is only likely up from the next season forward.

Gotta take advantage of this stealth Tampa Bay Tank while we still can...

I agree with most of what you said... but Trent Jr's cap hold will be about $4.7M. If Lowry walks we'll have $18M in cap space to sign a center.. and then can bring back Trent using his bird rights.

So his new contract won't hurt us in free agency.. his small cap hold will help and that's why we traded him for Norm.

But it hinges on Lowry. If Lowry stays, then we'll only have the mid-level.

[JShuttlesworth]

Highly doubt we plan to sign Kelly Olynyk but sure lol

"We'll overpay for a MLE type of player who barely moves the needle"

Doesn't have to be Kelly, I said a player like Kelly. Free agents don't want to come to Toronto.

Who has Masai signed? Cojo? Carroll? Sullinger? Baynes?

"lol"

Even if that’s the case, we’d have room to sign another FA. Kelly Olynyk is not getting $15M a season by any team. Clearly wasn’t good enough to start on the Heat before the trade to the Rockets. He’s a bench player.

You act like we had cap space all those years. We had cap space in one season. The rest we only had the MLE.

You also don’t know what happens with Lowry. We could end up solidifying the bench with a s&t and get a first round pick too.

This isn’t even the point. You don’t even know what the plan is for next season and we haven’t tanked since Masai came on board. You think tanking is going to be the direction the team takes heading into a new season? Yeah i dont think so lol

Masai, Bobby, and Nurse are literally tanking right now.

Look at all the players out with boo boos, look at our deadlines trades, these aren't win now moves.

We'll re-sign Trent, add a mediocre big, and add our 3 rookies into the rotation. Rookies are rookies and they aren't going to make a significant impact in their first NBA season. So unless we get lucky with those lottery balls, next season doesn't look great.

When I said "tWo is going to be in full force" (the post you originally responded to) where did I say that's the direction of the team? tWo is a reference to posters on RealGM not the direction Masai and Bobby are taking...I have no idea what you're talking about.

And guess what, your opinion counts as little as mine.

[Pooh_Jeter]

VanVleet / Flynn
Trent Jr. / Bembry
Anunoby / Watson
Siakam
Boucher

Plus one 1st and two 2nds.

At best we add someone like Kelly Olynyk in the offseason.

tWo is going to be in full force again next year because this looks like a lotto team.

I dont think this would be a lottery team, but if the intention is to still build around this "core" then things really aren't going to change. Siakam and FVV aren't leading a team anywhere and this is an insane amount of pressure on a 19/20 year old kid to be the franchise guy immediately.

[Marmoset]

For anyone in here that is criticizing the Raptors direction, it means you guys don’t think Masai/Bobby (arguably the best front office in the league), aren't good enough at their jobs to build a championship team. Carry on though.

This is the age-old argument that you can't criticize someone because they have had success. A silly argument. The best managers make some bad decisions. The worst managers make some good decisions.

One of the main criticisms right now is that there is no apparent direction for the franchise. Recent decisions seem contradictory. This doesn't mean there is no plan - I have a hard time believing such a successful front office does not have one - but their moves make it hard to see. Time will tell.

[planetmars]

Lowry played like ass this season, and we had Baynes and Stanley Johnson play heavy minutes. Our bench depth was non existent (how many times did our bench only produce like 5 points total). And yet we are still only 3 games back of a play-in. This team wouldn't be a lottery team with Olynyk over Baynes. And Olynyk would only be had for the room mid level let alone with $18M in cap space.

It's easy to make the playoffs in the East. And we couldn't do it this year because of Covid+Tampa+Baynes. All three of those variables will be gone next year. And we'll have more depth arguably. I mean look at last night: Boucher, Flynn, Watanabe, Bembry would all be coming off the bench, not starting. Add a FRP and two SRP's to that as well. We may even get a full G-league season to develop everyone properly.

This team is easily making the playoffs in '22. The bigger question is how do they become contenders again. That might take a few years.. but being a lottery team again would only happen if there were serious injuries again.. or if we end up with Baynes 2.0 as our next tank commander.

[JShuttlesworth]

I think from my perspective, the main problem is going to be depth next year. Especially big depth, similar to this year. I like our starting 5, aside from the centre spot, but the bench (as of today) will be composed of unproven players.

If we lose Anunoby to an injury, or Siakam even, there is no one to go to off the bench who can replicate what they do. Same goes for Trent.

[720]

This season revealed all the low IQ posters on this forum. These TM clowns are funny.