Marc Stein: Toronto has expressed interest in Ben Simmons

[anotherhomer]

Rich Paul and Ujiri are talking in the back - Toronto would be a great fresh start for Bennie.

With Dragic, Boucher, Fred, Picks - the Raptors have options to put together a package. But they need to give up at least 1 decent asset of value.

But Morey has really overplayed his hand.

I am sure there's mutual respect between rich and ujiri, or at least I hope so.

Whether that leads to Simmons joining the raps, we see

[WuTang_CMB]

Rich Paul and Ujiri are talking in the back - Toronto would be a great fresh start for Bennie.

With Dragic, Boucher, Fred, Picks - the Raptors have options to put together a package. But they need to give up at least 1 decent asset of value.

But Morey has really overplayed his hand.

I am sure there's mutual respect between rich and ujiri, or at least I hope so.

Whether that leads to Simmons joining the raps, we see

[ATLTimekeeper]

The discussion's lost the context, which is supposed to be a comparison of Fred vs. Ben. VVV's shown the advantages Ben has at certain positions vs. others, which is a crucial point brought up in the position-less thread (our 6'8 crew will still have natural advantages against certain types of players).

However, the comparison isn't an analytics one when it comes to Fred vs. Ben, it's simple physics.

The reason Bobby made that "we'd like to have a bunch of OGs/Siakams out there" wasn't because of how good they could be at a certain position. It's how they can't be exploited defensively, while potentially leveraging advantages offensively everywhere. And those advantages stack and provide flexibility that isn't there if you have a weak link.

Who's the better defender against Kawhi, Durant, LeBron, AD, Embiid: Ben or FVV? Of course it's a silly question, but that's the point. Ben may not be optimal in all situations, but it doesn't require a complete collapse of your defense if he's switched on him.

But what about Curry? The answer here is 'switching' (or OG, honestly) if you have your wall of OG, Barnes, Siakam, Ben and another guy. Blowing up all the off ball action. Again, the answer is physics, not analytics.

You can't stop any of those guys, really, so it doesn't matter if it's Ben or Fred. You can keep coming up with more "Fred is too short" posts, but he doesn't get picked on. If the offense can't work because Simmons can't shoot, then it doesn't make a difference.

[ash_k]

He's the same guy that challenged Kyle to a fight after a game and then hid in the locker room while Kyle waited in the hallway. That's all you really need to know about his toughness. Can I guard the occasional C on a switch? Sure. Should I be a full-time back-up C when Embiid is on the bench? Nope.

cmon nobody fights in the league these days. Both Gordon and Simmons have 40+ pounds on Kyle. Kyle was just posturing and you know it . Kudos to Kyle, but there are weight classes in fighting for a reason.
You need a certain mindset/level of physicality to play Australian rules football. They are Warriors.

Ben is not a center, can he defend centers at times? of course.. full-time? he can't. Just like OG. He will get injured (see that weight class stuff). Just like OG got injured defending Sabonis. Ben's injury record is his only con!

Ben challenged Kyle to the fight and Kyle was the one posturing

He played some Aussie rules football as a kid when he was likely the biggest person around. You know what that means. Blake Griffin was "football" player tough until he hit the NBA and had to play guys his own size and bigger. If you want to talk weight class, then you know as well as I do he's about as much of a "warrior" as any 15 year old playing hockey right now. Put that one to bed. Ben's accent isn't even Australian anymore

Now, as for the full-time C, I clearly said back up C to Embiid. So, what 15 minutes a night? He's (according to you) 6"11, 240. He's bigger than Al Horford!

Ben actually wanted to become a professional in Australian rules Football.
You are comparing a sport that use protective equipment all over the place like Hockey to Australian rules Football . Cmon now, use another sport . (running to be hit without protective gear (no thank you!) it is another world.

ESPN.com and NBA.com both say 6' 11", 240 lbs thus 6' 11", 240 lbs It is!
I would certainly not have the best perimeter defender in the league defending bigs (for long), it would defeat the purpose. He is not Rudy Gobert .
Depending on the matchups and lineups knowing Pascal is too weak to guard most of bigs, I would put him on certain bigs for shorts spurts.
In a lineup of Simmons|OG|Siakam|Trent|Barnes only he and OG could physically guard a Sabonis type center(size wise) (for shorts spurts).
BTW Ben just like Stringer Bell aka Idris Elba covers his Australian (Brit for Idris)accent depending on the audience.

We have to go "international" as much as possible. There won't be any " I want to go home" with Ben

[sidsid]

The discussion's lost the context, which is supposed to be a comparison of Fred vs. Ben. VVV's shown the advantages Ben has at certain positions vs. others, which is a crucial point brought up in the position-less thread (our 6'8 crew will still have natural advantages against certain types of players).

However, the comparison isn't an analytics one when it comes to Fred vs. Ben, it's simple physics.

The reason Bobby made that "we'd like to have a bunch of OGs/Siakams out there" wasn't because of how good they could be at a certain position. It's how they can't be exploited defensively, while potentially leveraging advantages offensively everywhere. And those advantages stack and provide flexibility that isn't there if you have a weak link.

Who's the better defender against Kawhi, Durant, LeBron, AD, Embiid: Ben or FVV? Of course it's a silly question, but that's the point. Ben may not be optimal in all situations, but it doesn't require a complete collapse of your defense if he's switched on him.

But what about Curry? The answer here is 'switching' (or OG, honestly) if you have your wall of OG, Barnes, Siakam, Ben and another guy. Blowing up all the off ball action. Again, the answer is physics, not analytics.

You can't stop any of those guys, really, so it doesn't matter if it's Ben or Fred. You can keep coming up with more "Fred is too short" posts, but he doesn't get picked on. If the offense can't work because Simmons can't shoot, then it doesn't make a difference.

I think it does matter if OG is guarding Durant instead of FVV, and Durant would agree with me, along with every coach in the league. And if it didn't matter, you could put 5 FVVs on the floor - I mean, there's no difference defensively and everyone is unstoppable and there are no downsides at all to doing that - and start winning some 'chips.

This is silly and not at all debatable. A weird hill for you to die on. Big slow centers need to play drop coverages, which comes with downsides. Short, unathletic players get exposed individually and are a weak link in the collective defense when contenders are hunting weaknesses (unless you're the Bucks, who play stupid). Facts of the game in this era.

It's true that not every playoff team can exploit your liabilities, but most can, and that's why these types of players are vulnerable to matchups. It explains Fred's futility against big playoff defenses, for example (even if our 'chip run didn't include a Superstar shooting wing targetting Fred on the offensive end).

If you want to make an argument against trading Ben for Fred, it's banking on Ben not improving offensively at all for the rest of his career (a very real possibility imo), and tanking his trade value in other ways. Not by pretending that being talented, tall and athletic doesn't matter in the NBA.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Ben actually wanted to become a professional in Australian rules Football.

He actually wanted to fight Kyle Lowry, too

You are comparing a sport that use protective equipment all over the place like Hockey to Australian rules Football . Cmon now, use another sport . (running to be hit without protective gear (no thank you!) it is another world.

Nah, I'm comparing knocking around kids smaller than you when you're a kid (when it doesn't hurt that much), to what actual pro Aussie Rules Football players have to endure.

I would certainly not have the best perimeter defender in the league defending bigs (for long), it would defeat the purpose. He is not Rudy Gobert .

I mean, he kinda is (in the playoffs). That's the problem.

BTW Ben just like Stringer Bell aka Idris Elba covers his Australian (Brit for Idris)accent depending on the audience.

The difference is Idris is an artist.

We have to go "international" as much as possible. There won't be any " I want to go home" with Ben

He already thinks he's from California

You don't got this one.

[ATLTimekeeper]

I think it does matter if OG is guarding Durant instead of FVV, and Durant would agree with me, along with every coach in the league. And if it didn't matter, you could put 5 FVVs on the floor - I mean, there's no difference defensively and everyone is unstoppable and there are no downsides at all to doing that - and start winning some 'chips.

No, that's not what I mean. You've reduced defense to individual match-ups, when we both know that Kevin Durant can't get the FVV match-up every time he wants. If it's individualized, still Durant is scoring on Simmons, prime Rodman, Pippen, you name it. It's not, though, and that's why FVV is still really valuable defensively. That's what those stats are useful for, and why you have no examples of FVV getting picked on defensively in the playoffs. They put him on Curry in the Finals. They tried Kawhi and he got destroyed in under a quarter and had to be moved off.

I

t's true that not every playoff team can exploit your liabilities, but most can, and that's why these types of players are vulnerable to matchups. It explains Fred's futility against big playoff defenses, for example (even if our 'chip run didn't include a Superstar shooting wing targetting Fred on the offensive end).

Klay wasn't a superstar shooting wing. Middleton not enough of a shooting wing? Was Jimmy Butler hunting down Fred?

If you want to make an argument against trading Ben for Fred, it's banking on Ben not improving offensively at all for the rest of his career (a very real possibility imo), and tanking his trade value in other ways. Not by pretending that being talented, tall and athletic doesn't matter in the NBA.

The argument is that Fred has more utility than Ben on any team, including a champ. You have to have wiped your memory clear of certain events to deny this. The primary case is that the Raptors couldn't afford to trade 9 3PAs for 0. The secondary case has been proven that Fred's defensive aptitude is highly underrated. Ben is a great defender, but being a great big defender on a team full of great big defenders... well, Rondae Hollis-Jefferson comes cheap.

[ash_k]

Nah, I'm comparing knocking around kids smaller than you when you're a kid (when it doesn't hurt that much), to what actual pro Aussie Rules Football players have to endure.

The point of the Australian rules football chat is to reflect what he does today how it has carried over: He loves contact on the basketball court (too much for my liking actually). He is a physical player that has finesse in his passing.

I would certainly not have the best perimeter defender in the league defending bigs (for long), it would defeat the purpose. He is not Rudy Gobert .

I mean, he kinda is (in the playoffs). That's the problem.

I respect Rudy Gobert but can Rudy Gobert do 14.8ppg|10.2rpg|9.2rpg in a series and in another one do 18.2ppg|10.6rpg|9.0apg
Again, there has been much more to Ben's PRO life than that Hawks series.

The difference is Idris is an artist.

Yuu got me though some of Ben's passes are quite artful

He already thinks he's from California

Says who? Those reports from two weeks ago swearing that he only wanted to play in California.
High school in Australia and Florida and then College in Baton Rouge/LSU lol . He would be just fine in Toronto and could become its new King. Basketball is not just about scoring and taking 3s: He would be a good example for the youth.

Good ones ATLTimekeeper!

[Raps in 4]

He would be just fine in Toronto and could become its new King.

King of what? Call of Duty? Because it certainly wouldn't be basketball.

[Raps in 4]

I don't even really want Simmons but y'all trippin on his defence now.. come on. Dudes with the size, strength and quickness to make Kawhi look small and slow just don't exist.

Watch on YouTube

He's the best defender in the NBA IMO (but he also can be because he didn't expend energy on offence). But Bruce Bowen with passing isn't worth $35 million/year. And it certainly isn't worth giving up assets for the privilege to pay him that.

[sidsid]

I think it does matter if OG is guarding Durant instead of FVV, and Durant would agree with me, along with every coach in the league. And if it didn't matter, you could put 5 FVVs on the floor - I mean, there's no difference defensively and everyone is unstoppable and there are no downsides at all to doing that - and start winning some 'chips.

No, that's not what I mean. You've reduced defense to individual match-ups, when we both know that Kevin Durant can't get the FVV match-up every time he wants. If it's individualized, still Durant is scoring on Simmons, prime Rodman, Pippen, you name it. It's not, though, and that's why FVV is still really valuable defensively. That's what those stats are useful for, and why you have no examples of FVV getting picked on defensively in the playoffs. They put him on Curry in the Finals. They tried Kawhi and he got destroyed in under a quarter and had to be moved off.

Your reply to my post reduced defense down to "Durant is unstoppable so it doesn't matter", not me. My entire post explains the advantages of big, versatile Defenders individually and as a group. Wishing all of that away is why your Ben vs. FVV defense argument doesn't hold water and why you're avoiding it here.

Durant absolutely can get the FVV matchup whenever he wants, and the 4th quarter "watch Durant work" offense is exactly when it would happen.

The reason we don't have stats for it is because our chip run didn't run into them. We did have a Jimmy Butler problem - solved by Kawhi, a big athletic wing who ate him up, late in games (or likely Ben or OG if available) - but that was easy to avoid. Fred was rendered unplayable by a guy named Ellis (or Enis? Don't even know if he's still in the league) in that series so he didn't see a lot of floor time. A bad matchup if you will.

And I have an answer for Curry in my previous post: switching - which, again, you brushed away as "FVV short posts" - or OG.

t's true that not every playoff team can exploit your liabilities, but most can, and that's why these types of players are vulnerable to matchups. It explains Fred's futility against big playoff defenses, for example (even if our 'chip run didn't include a Superstar shooting wing targetting Fred on the offensive end).

Klay wasn't a superstar shooting wing. Middleton not enough of a shooting wing? Was Jimmy Butler hunting down Fred?

[/quote]

Klay absolutely went off on our team. A guy who's only move is a mid-range post-up and shooting over short players. Watching as Lowry and Fred with outstretched arms "contesting" shots that went in. Open shots all over the place (transition, runouts, on-ball). A very bad example to pick for the undersized backcourt defense. A great one for the 6'8 crew.

After watching the Bucks infuriatingly dumb 'chip run, it does not shock me that they didn't exploit liabilities. Jimmy I covered. BTW, none of these guys are superstars, but they serve the point well enough.

If you want to make an argument against trading Ben for Fred, it's banking on Ben not improving offensively at all for the rest of his career (a very real possibility imo), and tanking his trade value in other ways. Not by pretending that being talented, tall and athletic doesn't matter in the NBA.

The argument is that Fred has more utility than Ben on any team, including a champ. You have to have wiped your memory clear of certain events to deny this. The primary case is that the Raptors couldn't afford to trade 9 3PAs for 0. The secondary case has been proven that Fred's defensive aptitude is highly underrated. Ben is a great defender, but being a great big defender on a team full of great big defenders... well, Rondae Hollis-Jefferson comes cheap.

My argument is for the future, not the now. It might even help us tank a bit this year for a better pick with the lack of shooting (that's good to me, but we might not share this goal).

But a debatable point that right now, Ben would not help any other team as much as Fred. I believe Ben has a fatal flaw and a low playoff ceiling like Fred, but for different reasons we've exausted in this thread. And Ben simply can't play with Embiid, Giannis or Gobert which is a very real limitation.

The larger point still rests on the upside of a 24 year old. In order for you not to want to trade for a guy like him for Fred:

1. Believe he won't improve at all offensively
2. Will tank his trade value further

That's it. Because as soon as he does make an improvement it's not close. Might even be our best player over Siakam at that point.

Very possible and good reasons to not make that gamble. Maybe you want to save the assets for a different gamble. I just doubt the FO believes in number 1.

[everdiso]

cmon nobody fights in the league these days. Both Gordon and Simmons have 40+ pounds on Kyle. Kyle was just posturing and you know it . Kudos to Kyle, but there are weight classes in fighting for a reason.
You need a certain mindset/level of physicality to play Australian rules football. They are Warriors.

Ben is not a center, can he defend centers at times? of course.. full-time? he can't. Just like OG. He will get injured (see that weight class stuff). Just like OG got injured defending Sabonis. Ben's injury record is his only con!

Ben challenged Kyle to the fight and Kyle was the one posturing

He played some Aussie rules football as a kid when he was likely the biggest person around. You know what that means. Blake Griffin was "football" player tough until he hit the NBA and had to play guys his own size and bigger. If you want to talk weight class, then you know as well as I do he's about as much of a "warrior" as any 15 year old playing hockey right now. Put that one to bed. Ben's accent isn't even Australian anymore

Now, as for the full-time C, I clearly said back up C to Embiid. So, what 15 minutes a night? He's (according to you) 6"11, 240. He's bigger than Al Horford!

Ben actually wanted to become a professional in Australian rules Football.
You are comparing a sport that use protective equipment all over the place like Hockey to Australian rules Football . Cmon now, use another sport . (running to be hit without protective gear (no thank you!) it is another world.

ESPN.com and NBA.com both say 6' 11", 240 lbs thus 6' 11", 240 lbs It is!
I would certainly not have the best perimeter defender in the league defending bigs (for long), it would defeat the purpose. He is not Rudy Gobert .
Depending on the matchups and lineups knowing Pascal is too weak to guard most of bigs, I would put him on certain bigs for shorts spurts.
In a lineup of Simmons|OG|Siakam|Trent|Barnes only he and OG could physically guard a Sabonis type center(size wise) (for shorts spurts).
BTW Ben just like Stringer Bell aka Idris Elba covers his Australian (Brit for Idris)accent depending on the audience.

We have to go "international" as much as possible. There won't be any " I want to go home" with Ben

He's actually 6'8.5" (measured officially 5yrs ago) which they rounded up to 6'9" when every team revised their "verified" heights and weights a year or two ago.

And his wingspan isnt as long as our guys - somewhere between 6'11"-7'0".

[tecumseh18]

Read on Twitter

This is such a logical take (by the always reliable Fischer).

[everdiso]

Read on Twitter

This is such a logical take (by the always reliable Fischer).

Yep. Sounds bang on.

[TheBoi10]

Read on Twitter

This is such a logical take (by the always reliable Fischer).

Fischer came out of nowhere this summer, he has all the Raptors scoops

[WuTang_CMB]

Read on Twitter

This is such a logical take (by the always reliable Fischer).

This sounds like Masai gave Philly a deadline which is why post draft they publically supported the core of OG, FVV, and Siakam multiple times and building around them.

[planetmars]

Fischer is like the new age Woj. This take here makes me so happy. I like Ben, but not at the expense of Fred, OG or Pascal.

[mtcan]

We don't need a Simmons. We need a primary scorer. Simmons ain't that.

I wonder if management is hoping OG takes a big leap this upcoming season and can put up 23 ppg. No other reason why they would otherwise be drafting a Scottie Barnes or looking to acquire a Ben Simmons...

If OG puts up 18-19 ppg...I'd be pleased...and I think that is easily attainable.

[RoyceDa59]

If we trade for Simmons while keeping Siakam, OG, Barnes & Precious, watch TF out.

[arbsn]

I would reluctantly do Fred + Boucher + Future 1st for Ben

It would feel wrong but you still have to do it. Still it would suck trading a raps legend

At least trading Dbo for Kawhi felt right